someone mentioned to me that in teh newer home people dont use sump
pumps but some other type of mechanism to get water out of the
basement well, and appearantly it doesnt require electricity

First i wanted to know what type of mechanism this is, and if i can
install it myself.

Also if i was to have it installed what does it typically cost for a
plumber do it?

im trying to find some sure fire method to prevent floods as i want to
finish my basement and make it into the ULTIMATE game room. and i
cannot afford to have a single flood!

thanks in advance for your help.

There are a few options; obviously all require some sort of pumping
mechanism.

What I think you are talking about is a water powered sump pump. These
are not inexpensive however, and because of that, it's not likely worth
your while to install it yourself (Penny wise pound foolish).

I'd say roughly you are looking at between $1000 - $1500; but it
depends on many things, like if you already have a sump pit, how far
water lines would need to be run to the pump, etc.

As an aside, if you are really going to lay out the jack for a SERIOUS
game room, get a good insurance policy, just to keep all your bases
covered.

wrote:
someone mentioned to me that in teh newer home people dont use sump
pumps but some other type of mechanism to get water out of the
basement well, and appearantly it doesnt require electricity

First i wanted to know what type of mechanism this is, and if i can
install it myself.

Also if i was to have it installed what does it typically cost for a
plumber do it?

im trying to find some sure fire method to prevent floods as i want to
finish my basement and make it into the ULTIMATE game room. and i
cannot afford to have a single flood!

thanks in advance for your help.

While there are water jet pumps that use the city water supply to pump
out the water, I have not heard of anyone using those as the primary system.
They do make good, but expensive back up systems where you have city water.
Since the electricity tends to go out during storms that cause flooding, the
water powered pump is a good backup but will not help if you have a well
that also runs on electricity.


--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

im trying to find some sure fire method to prevent floods as i want to
finish my basement and make it into the ULTIMATE game room. and i
cannot afford to have a single flood!

thanks in advance for your help.


Some houses are destined to flood no matter what you do. You can
mitigate the possibility of power failure with a standby generator,
but then you have to keep it maintained and ready to go at a seconds
notice. If you just have one sump pump and one generator, a simple
failure of either one can leave you (literally) up-the-creek.

If your just buying a house, look at the elevations. Do the other
hourses around yours flood? Is the whole lot in a lowlying area?

Perhaps its better to buy the house at the top of the hill.

Beachcomber

wrote in message
oups.com...
someone mentioned to me that in teh newer home people dont use sump
pumps but some other type of mechanism to get water out of the
basement well, and appearantly it doesnt require electricity

First i wanted to know what type of mechanism this is, and if i can
install it myself.

Also if i was to have it installed what does it typically cost for a
plumber do it?

im trying to find some sure fire method to prevent floods as i want to
finish my basement and make it into the ULTIMATE game room. and i
cannot afford to have a single flood!

I won't go into the water powered systems, since others have already
mentioned their pricey and complicated issues.

You may want to look into battery backup sump pumps. These use a deep cycle
battery and a small pump, which takes over in the event your power goes out
or your pump malfunctions or gets clogged. These cost around $200 to $300,
require a simple splice and a backflow valve in your existing sump system,
and needs almost no maintenance except perhaps checking up on the battery
every year or so.

Sears sold them a while back, and may still offer them, and there's always
Ebay.

Pagan

wrote:
someone mentioned to me that in teh newer home people dont use sump
pumps but some other type of mechanism to get water out of the
basement well, and appearantly it doesnt require electricity


Gravity. Foundation draines in homes in large developed cities tend to
flow into the storm sewer.

First i wanted to know what type of mechanism this is, and if i can
install it myself.

Also if i was to have it installed what does it typically cost for a
plumber do it?

im trying to find some sure fire method to prevent floods as i want to
finish my basement and make it into the ULTIMATE game room. and i
cannot afford to have a single flood!



use standard electric sump with water powered backup if your city does
not provide a storm sewer deep enough.

thanks in advance for your help.



--
Respectfully,


CL Gilbert

wrote in message
oups.com...
someone mentioned to me that in teh newer home people dont use sump
pumps but some other type of mechanism to get water out of the
basement well, and appearantly it doesnt require electricity

If the storm sewer is deep enough you can simply use a drain instead of a
pump. If that were the case for you, it would have been done that way when
the house was built.

I know someone who connected his floor drain to the sanitary sewer, but that
is thoroughly illegal; and wrong to boot.

Water powered pumps are adequate if your need is not great, but the ones I
have used are pretty flimsy and I sure would not want to use them except as
a backup in an emergency. I doubt they would hold up long in heavy use.

The unpowered system I like is to be built on a hillside with walkout
basement I have never had water in the sump in 12 years, while the houses
across the street get pretty serious water.

First i wanted to know what type of mechanism this is, and if i can
install it myself.

Also if i was to have it installed what does it typically cost for a
plumber do it?

im trying to find some sure fire method to prevent floods as i want to
finish my basement and make it into the ULTIMATE game room. and i
cannot afford to have a single flood!

thanks in advance for your help.

In alt.home.repair on Thu, 21 Jul 2005 22:00:55 GMT "toller"
posted:


I know someone who connected his floor drain to the sanitary sewer, but that
is thoroughly illegal; and wrong to boot.

I know someone who connected his sump pump to his basement sink. This
in one of the four houses here where the most frequent cause of
basement flooding was the stream going over the top of manholes in the
sewers, filling the sewer system and backing up through that same
basement sink.

I told the new owner to fix this about a year ago. Thanks for
reminding me to tell him again.




Meirman
--
If emailing, please let me know whether
or not you are posting the same letter.
Change domain to erols.com, if necessary.

In alt.home.repair on 21 Jul 2005 09:22:34 -0700
posted:

Posted and mailed. Reply by post. By mail if I don't reply and it's
specifically for me.

someone mentioned to me that in teh newer home people dont use sump
pumps but some other type of mechanism to get water out of the
basement well, and appearantly it doesnt require electricity

First i wanted to know what type of mechanism this is, and if i can
install it myself.

Also if i was to have it installed what does it typically cost for a
plumber do it?

im trying to find some sure fire method to prevent floods as i want to
finish my basement and make it into the ULTIMATE game room. and i
cannot afford to have a single flood!

thanks in advance for your help.

A failing sump pump is not necessarily your biggest risk.

Although I woudn't flood if I were on a hill, and although my basement
flooded (an eighth inch deep) about 3 times when the rain made the
stream rise and the stream flooded the sewers and that backed up
through the basement sink, in fact, I face no danger it seems from the
sump pump not working.

Despite the fact that the stream has risen to two feet from my fence,
to a place which is less than 30 feet from my basement and probably 4
feet above my basement floor, and despite the fact that water just
pours into the sump though both pipes that surround the base of the
foundation, from both directions, and my sump pump often runs a lot, I
think that is only to keep the water level in the sump at 18 inches
below the basement floor instead of 6 inches below the basement floor.
When I raised the float level so that it started to pump at 10 inches
below the basement floor instead of 12 inches below, the amount of
pumping time dropped by about 80 percent. Now, light rains never cause
the pump to go on. If I went up another inch it would drop another 10
or 15 percent, and I think if I went up to 5 inches below the floor it
would never run at all. Water would never get higher than that.

The fact that the pump runs a lot does not mean that if you turned off
the pump the basement would flood. You have to check. And you have
to do so when all the conditions are right for flooding to occur.
Start when one condition is right, when it's raining heavily.

If you already own the house, I would go down there during the
heaviest storms, and also the longest periods of rain, and when the
soil outside the house is the most drenched, and watch what happens
when you loosen the collar, and let the float rise all the way up
without turning on the pump. See how close to the floor it gets. Of
course before you do this, mark the previous collar location with an
indelible marker, or a crayon that will last until you put it back.
AND KNOW HOW to turn the pump on with your fingers. There is a 1 or 2
inch plastic arm which the collar hits that turns the pump on. Let it
cycle a couple times to see how it works. And keep a screwdriver or
allen wrench handy to retighten the collar if you have to leave
suddenly, the phone rings. And don't just tighten it, but watch a
couple cycles to make sure it's still working.

I would still never get rid of the sump pump, and I replaced it when
it rusted. And it once rained here 38 days out of 40. Just short of
Biblical. I had just moved here and I didn't think to do any testing
during that period. Maybe it would have flooded the sump.



My problem, flooding through the basement sink, is not that common
afaik, but it would happen because of the stream every 3 or 4 years if
I didn't plug the sink with a rubber cork, held down by a piece of
wood that is jambed under the shelf I built above the washer-dryer.
Even then, once it lifted up the shelf even though there was a lot of
stuff on it. I hadn't screwed the shelf to the wall bracket it rested
on. Even now, there is the chance the sink will fall off the wall the
next time water pressure is pushing up on the cork. Hmmm. I'm not
sure if that would matter??????, but I have to put legs under the sink
anyhow, for when it falls off the wall from the weight of the water.

But the sink also backed up when a grease log clogged the local sewer
for half of my n'hood of 100 townhouses. Caused apparently by people
washing greasy dishes in the sink or dishwasher. Apparently no one's
fault. Apparently no one's drains drained, but it was the people at
the bottom of the hill, yet up sewer from the clog, whose sinks backed
up. Because my sink was stopped, I only got a teeny bit when the
shelf was lifted up.



But there are more ways to flood, all of which have affected me.

Forgetting that the basement sink has a stopper in it, with a piece of
wood jambed against the shelf, and then doing the laundry. I've only
done that once.

Ways to avoid flooding, all of which I should have done before they
got me, although I was home each time and caught them quickly:

Turn off the water lines to your washing machine whenever you unload
the washer, or use steel covered hoses, or maybe even both. I was
probably sleeping when this one started, or I had just run the
bathroom sink or toilet. (The hoses took up the shock when the water
was turned off, by a faucet or a toilet valve. But taking up the
slack is what made one burst. This happens all the time to one house
or another.) Lucky I heard the water running in the basement.

Don't use vinyl tubing to your humidifier or refrigerator ice maker
(or anything else if there are other things). Use copper, and don't
fold it when you install it.

Put your water heater in a plastic tray, with the drain routed to
sump. If you have no tray, note the water when it first leaks on the
floor. More is coming, suddenly. (I didnt' notice because I thought
the basement was still wet from the previous leak from one of the
other causes.)

Cut holes in the lip of the sump. My plastic lip is at least 3/8 inch
high, and though it's pretty, afaict there is no need for any lip
above the cement. It keeps water on the floor from draining into the
sump. The whole lip need not be cut away. Pour water on the floor
and see where it first reaches the lip, and that is where to drill or
cut. Holes that are too small won't actually let water through.
Maybe use a saw or a knife or a hot knife to cut out a 3 inch piece.


In my location, I can't put a toilet in the basement, because there is
no way to plug it, even though the rough-in is there.

I've thought about putting a tray underneathe the sink, with a pipe to
the sump, or cutting a channel in the basement floor. But my basement
is crowded and they're on opposite sides of the room. If I were
building a house, I would consider putting them next to each other
with the floor sloped to


Meirman
--
If emailing, please let me know whether
or not you are posting the same letter.
Change domain to erols.com, if necessary.

A failing sump pump is not necessarily your biggest risk.

Although I woudn't flood if I were on a hill, and although my basement
flooded (an eighth inch deep) about 3 times when the rain made the
stream rise and the stream flooded the sewers and that backed up
through the basement sink, in fact, I face no danger it seems from the
sump pump not working.

Despite the fact that the stream has risen to two feet from my fence,
to a place which is less than 30 feet from my basement and probably 4
feet above my basement floor, and despite the fact that water just
pours into the sump though both pipes that surround the base of the
foundation, from both directions, and my sump pump often runs a lot, I
think that is only to keep the water level in the sump at 18 inches
below the basement floor instead of 6 inches below the basement floor.
When I raised the float level so that it started to pump at 10 inches
below the basement floor instead of 12 inches below, the amount of
pumping time dropped by about 80 percent. Now, light rains never cause
the pump to go on. If I went up another inch it would drop another 10
or 15 percent, and I think if I went up to 5 inches below the floor it
would never run at all. Water would never get higher than that.


I have a stream that runs next to my house as well. Turns into a kind
of swamp further toward the end of my property.

The fact that the pump runs a lot does not mean that if you turned off
the pump the basement would flood. You have to check. And you have
to do so when all the conditions are right for flooding to occur.
Start when one condition is right, when it's raining heavily.

If you already own the house, I would go down there during the
heaviest storms, and also the longest periods of rain, and when the
soil outside the house is the most drenched, and watch what happens
when you loosen the collar, and let the float rise all the way up
without turning on the pump. See how close to the floor it gets. Of
course before you do this, mark the previous collar location with an
indelible marker, or a crayon that will last until you put it back.
AND KNOW HOW to turn the pump on with your fingers. There is a 1 or 2
inch plastic arm which the collar hits that turns the pump on. Let it
cycle a couple times to see how it works. And keep a screwdriver or
allen wrench handy to retighten the collar if you have to leave
suddenly, the phone rings. And don't just tighten it, but watch a
couple cycles to make sure it's still working.


Well this depends. I can unplug my sump now and the water will raise
quickly to the level of the drain tiles and slow down while the tiles
are backfilling with water. So you have to wait a considerable time for
those tiles to fill up. Then since you have previously lowered the
ground water level around yoru house by sumping, you will have to wait
till the ground water level raises as well.

So if you unplug the pump and it only raises to 6" from the top of the
pit, you still have to wait a few days to know for sure if this level is
settled. And yes you also need to know what will happen to it in a rain
storm.


I would still never get rid of the sump pump, and I replaced it when
it rusted. And it once rained here 38 days out of 40. Just short of
Biblical. I had just moved here and I didn't think to do any testing
during that period. Maybe it would have flooded the sump.



My problem, flooding through the basement sink, is not that common
afaik, but it would happen because of the stream every 3 or 4 years if
I didn't plug the sink with a rubber cork, held down by a piece of
wood that is jambed under the shelf I built above the washer-dryer.
Even then, once it lifted up the shelf even though there was a lot of
stuff on it. I hadn't screwed the shelf to the wall bracket it rested
on. Even now, there is the chance the sink will fall off the wall the
next time water pressure is pushing up on the cork. Hmmm. I'm not
sure if that would matter??????, but I have to put legs under the sink
anyhow, for when it falls off the wall from the weight of the water.


I wouldnt expect this to be common. You should install a backflow valve
in your main sewer if this is the case. Also I am surprised that you do
not have any floor drains. Those would let out the water before it
reached the level of the sink.


But the sink also backed up when a grease log clogged the local sewer
for half of my n'hood of 100 townhouses. Caused apparently by people
washing greasy dishes in the sink or dishwasher. Apparently no one's
fault. Apparently no one's drains drained, but it was the people at
the bottom of the hill, yet up sewer from the clog, whose sinks backed
up. Because my sink was stopped, I only got a teeny bit when the
shelf was lifted up.



But there are more ways to flood, all of which have affected me.

Forgetting that the basement sink has a stopper in it, with a piece of
wood jambed against the shelf, and then doing the laundry. I've only
done that once.

Ways to avoid flooding, all of which I should have done before they
got me, although I was home each time and caught them quickly:

Turn off the water lines to your washing machine whenever you unload
the washer, or use steel covered hoses, or maybe even both. I was
probably sleeping when this one started, or I had just run the
bathroom sink or toilet. (The hoses took up the shock when the water
was turned off, by a faucet or a toilet valve. But taking up the
slack is what made one burst. This happens all the time to one house
or another.) Lucky I heard the water running in the basement.


Interesting. They told me when I put in my washer to use the metal
hoses since they dont break as often as the rubber ones which must be
widespread. Also sounds like you could use a watter hammer arrester?

Don't use vinyl tubing to your humidifier or refrigerator ice maker
(or anything else if there are other things). Use copper, and don't
fold it when you install it.


I loop the copper hose like a spring.

Put your water heater in a plastic tray, with the drain routed to
sump. If you have no tray, note the water when it first leaks on the
floor. More is coming, suddenly. (I didnt' notice because I thought
the basement was still wet from the previous leak from one of the
other causes.)

Cut holes in the lip of the sump. My plastic lip is at least 3/8 inch
high, and though it's pretty, afaict there is no need for any lip
above the cement. It keeps water on the floor from draining into the
sump. The whole lip need not be cut away. Pour water on the floor
and see where it first reaches the lip, and that is where to drill or
cut. Holes that are too small won't actually let water through.
Maybe use a saw or a knife or a hot knife to cut out a 3 inch piece.


Sometimes they try to seal the sump pit to keep out Radon.


In my location, I can't put a toilet in the basement, because there is
no way to plug it, even though the rough-in is there.


What do you mean by "plug it?" I have just installed a pipe in my
basement floor and will soon install the toilet. Should I be concerned?

I've thought about putting a tray underneathe the sink, with a pipe to
the sump, or cutting a channel in the basement floor. But my basement
is crowded and they're on opposite sides of the room. If I were
building a house, I would consider putting them next to each other
with the floor sloped to


Leads me to believe you dont have any floor drains.


--
Respectfully,


CL Gilbert

CL Gilbert wrote
Well this depends. I can unplug my sump now and the water will raise
quickly to the level of the drain tiles and slow down while the tiles
are backfilling with water. So you have to wait a considerable time for
those tiles to fill up. Then since you have previously lowered the
ground water level around yoru house by sumping, you will have to wait
till the ground water level raises as well.

So if you unplug the pump and it only raises to 6" from the top of the
pit, you still have to wait a few days to know for sure if this level is
settled. And yes you also need to know what will happen to it in a rain
storm.

CL Gilbert

==========

Well said. A gold star for somebody who understands how a sump pump
based drainage system is typically designed & operates.

Gideon

toller wrote
I know someone who connected his floor drain to the sanitary sewer,
but that is thoroughly illegal; and wrong to boot.

==============

I love global comments on Usenet.

Sewer-sanitary cross-connections are GENERALLY illegal in America.
Also, many communities have many such cross-connections which
are legal due to grandfathering of building codes even though the code
has been updated to outlaw such connections now.

I love global comments on Usenet.

Sewer-sanitary cross-connections are GENERALLY illegal in America.

Oh, sorry. I should have said they are illegal except in one or two towns
too dumb to have proper regulations.
Thank God there are people like you to catch these major errors. You are my
hero.

In alt.home.repair on Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:03:11 -0400 "CL (dnoyeB)
Gilbert" posted:

A failing sump pump is not necessarily your biggest risk.
...

Despite the fact that the stream has risen to two feet from my fence,
to a place which is less than 30 feet from my basement and probably 4
feet above my basement floor, and despite the fact that water just
pours into the sump though both pipes that surround the base of the
foundation, from both directions, and my sump pump often runs a lot, I

FTR, townhouse, end of group. One perforated corrugated 6 inch black
plastic pipe goes around the side and rear of the house, and the other
one only the front of the house, 90% of which has the "patio" and
stoop in front of it. That only leaves a little to enter though that
pipe, but I do see some.

pumping time dropped by about 80 percent. Now, light rains never cause
the pump to go on. If I went up another inch it would drop another 10
or 15 percent, and I think if I went up to 5 inches below the floor it
would never run at all. Water would never get higher than that.


I have a stream that runs next to my house as well. Turns into a kind
of swamp further toward the end of my property.

I can believe that. Try not to mow the lawn then. The city map
of my parents' neighborhood showed a stream 3 doors from our house,
but they just a built a regular house there. His back yard was like a
swamp when it rained, and a 10 foot by 8 foot part of our yard was
too, in the spring. The self-propelled lawnmower left ruts it the
yard. Hilarious.

My house was built where an auto junk yard had been, and they built up
some lots with fill. Probably my little lot the most. The stream is
about 8 feet wide by 6 inches deep most of the time, but when it rains
enough it can go to 30 feet wide by 10 feet deep in 10 hours. I
should try white water canoeing.

The fact that the pump runs a lot does not mean that if you turned off
the pump the basement would flood. You have to check. And you have
to do so when all the conditions are right for flooding to occur.
Start when one condition is right, when it's raining heavily.

If you already own the house, I would go down there during the
heaviest storms, and also the longest periods of rain, and when the
soil outside the house is the most drenched, and watch what happens
when you loosen the collar, and let the float rise all the way up
without turning on the pump. See how close to the floor it gets.
...
Well this depends. I can unplug my sump now and the water will raise
quickly to the level of the drain tiles and slow down while the tiles
are backfilling with water. So you have to wait a considerable time for
those tiles to fill up. Then since you have previously lowered the
ground water level around yoru house by sumping, you will have to wait

I didn't think that was much of a factor, but I guess I didn't pay
attention.

till the ground water level raises as well.

I'll try all this, but it will have to wait until there is a lot more
rain.

So if you unplug the pump and it only raises to 6" from the top of the
pit, you still have to wait a few days to know for sure if this level is
settled. And yes you also need to know what will happen to it in a rain
storm.

Right. Two different things, or three if you count long medium rains
and drenching rains of whatever length.

on. Even now, there is the chance the sink will fall off the wall the
next time water pressure is pushing up on the cork. Hmmm. I'm not
sure if that would matter??????, but I have to put legs under the sink
anyhow, for when it falls off the wall from the weight of the water.


I wouldnt expect this to be common.

That's one reason I haven't put the legs on yet. I noticed during the
last flood, when I was teaching my neighbors how to siphon out the
sink, that one sink had legs added. I should ask them why, but they
probably won't know.

You should install a backflow valve
in your main sewer if this is the case.

An anti-backflow valve? I don't think I need that because I don't
think the level has ever gotten more than 4 feet above the basement
floor, and the main drain is not in a wall and has never shown any
leakage.

I do have it in the sink drain, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't work
well. I wish I could have tested when new, but since then, I've used
my washer a lot and it doesn't have a lint trap. Rather the manual
says it cuts the lint up into little pieces. I've used a variety of
things to catch the little pieces before they go down the drain, but
I'm pretty sure enough has gotten down that the valve won't shut well
anymore. I mean, I took out the piece of wood twice when the water
outside was high enough and water started gushing up through the
drain.

Plastic drain pipe, and all I could find was a flapper valve. Is
there a better, less cloggable valve?

Also I am surprised that you do
not have any floor drains. Those would let out the water before it
reached the level of the sink.

Wait a second. No leak has ever gotten more than an eigth of an inch
on the floor, and only part of the floor at that. Mostly that damages
cardboard boxes and I have to find new ones to put my short scrap
lumber in, etc. Only one leak has ever made it out of the laundry
room to the "club room" (where the rug soaked up a lot, and where
about 6 vinyl tiles came unglued, plus 6 edge pieces along one wall.

When the stream floods and the sink overflows, it is only after it
reaches and surpasses the top of the sink that any water gets on the
floor.

But the sink also backed up when a grease log clogged the local sewer...

But there are more ways to flood, all of which have affected me.

Forgetting that the basement sink has a stopper in it, with a piece of
wood jambed against the shelf, and then doing the laundry. I've only
done that once.
...
Turn off the water lines to your washing machine whenever you unload
the washer, or use steel covered hoses, or maybe even both. ...

Interesting. They told me when I put in my washer to use the metal
hoses since they dont break as often as the rubber ones which must be
widespread. Also sounds like you could use a watter hammer arrester?

I had to put two in after I got the metal hoses, because otherwise the
pipes banged. Little things from home Depot, worked fine.

Don't use vinyl tubing to your humidifier or refrigerator ice maker
(or anything else if there are other things). Use copper, and don't
fold it when you install it.

I loop the copper hose like a spring.

Good. BTW, although not much water got on the floor, when the
humidifier tube started to spray, it did so right over my file
cabinet. And the drawer was open. The one open drawer may have
funnelled some water to the closed drawer beneath it. This is the
basement file cabinet with tourist and technical information (and
springs and chains and bottle brushes in the bottom drawer. Some of
that may have gotten rusty, but no big deal). The glossy tourist
stuff tended to stick together and some woudln't unstick later. (I
should have done it before they dried (no, I remember. I couldn't
because then the pages would just fall apart), it was only tourist
stuff.) The unglossy stuff dried with no effort from me but still
looks a little more raggedy than it used to. No big deal, all of
this, but I was depressed about it at the time. I seemed more into
collecting tourist information than actually touring. That took too
much time, and for foreign locations, money.

Put your water heater in a plastic tray, with the drain routed to

Cut holes in the lip of the sump. My plastic lip is at least 3/8 inch
high, and though it's pretty, afaict there is no need for any lip

Sometimes they try to seal the sump pit to keep out Radon.

Not here because the lid for the sump has a 60 square inch section
missing that the output pipe and the float mechanism go through. (I
did check for radon once and was way below the danger level.)

In my location, I can't put a toilet in the basement, because there is
no way to plug it, even though the rough-in is there.

What do you mean by "plug it?" I have just installed a pipe in my
basement floor and will soon install the toilet. Should I be concerned?

Only if your sewer drain backs up more than you can tolerate. That's
happened to me four or five times in 22 years and would have another 5
to 15 times if I weren't able to plug the basement sink.** The top of
the toilet bowl would be barely higher than the bottom of my sink, let
alone the top of the sink. (That might not make any difference in
frequency, because it is only when the stream rises higher than the
manholes that there is flooding. Then it floods the sink and would
flood the toilet too. But I can't plug the toilet. Well maybe I
could, but then every time I wanted to use the toilet, I'd have to
take out the plug, use it, and put the plug back. Easier to go
upstairs.

**BTW, the water that comes out is from the *sewage* pipe, and does
seem to have solid matter in it. Yet, thank goodness, it has never
smelled bad while the floor was wet or afterwards, at least to my
enfeebled nose. I really don't think there has been any smell. Of
course it is mixed with lots of water from the kitchen and bathroom
sinks sinks, plus this only happens when the stream overflows the
sewer, and there must be enormous amounts of stream water diluting the
sewage. OTOH, I see lots of solid matter. Ot3H, this is not from a
septic tank. It's all "fresh". The stream only goes 3 or 4 miles
upsteam from me (and after that it's too tiny to be a stream, to be
anything), and I'm pretty sure the sewer goes no more. How fast would
sewage run in a sewer?? At least 5 miles an hour??? So nothing is
more than an hour old (not counting the time it spend inside people.)

I've thought about putting a tray underneathe the sink, with a pipe to
the sump, or cutting a channel in the basement floor. But my basement
is crowded and they're on opposite sides of the room. If I were
building a house, I would consider putting them next to each other
with the floor sloped to

Leads me to believe you dont have any floor drains.

I don't. I guess I could manually or jack hammer the floor (would
that crack it all the way through?), slope the replacement floor under
the sink, and maybe where the toilet goes, so that it goes to a drain
(or two) under the sink and naar the toilet and route the pipe to the
sump.


BTW, years ago I called the dept of sanitation and asked them to put
waterproof manhole covers in a couple of the manholes. Somone had told
me about them. He said it wouldn't help but said he would do it if I
wanted him to. I'm always optimistic. They did. I don't think it
helped. But now I'm not sure if I should have picked the manhole very
near me, the ones downstream, or the ones upstreeam. ???



Meirman
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Thats interesting. So the stream raises, floods the sewer, and the
sewer water flows into your house and starts shooting out of the
basement sink. And you don't think a backflow/backwater preventer would
stop that?

Does it flood because of water trying to leave your house can not leave?



Carl

In alt.home.repair on Sun, 24 Jul 2005 01:22:49 -0400 "CL (dnoyeB)
Gilbert" posted:

Thats interesting. So the stream raises, floods the sewer, and the
sewer water flows into your house and starts shooting out of the
basement sink. And you don't think a backflow/backwater preventer would
stop that?

No. I put one in and it doesn't. I think it is clogged with lint.
Only a little lint in the hinge might be enough to keep it from
closing fully. (I use the washer on a regular basis, but it can take
6 months to 18 months before the stream reaches flood level)

I tested the valve probably by blowing into it, with my hands wrapped
around it, and it worked well before I installed it. It's above the
trap. The water pressure should make it seal tighter. I can only
conlcude that it is clogged, no?

It doesn't quite shoot, just streams quickly, like a quart every 10
seconds. (That was the rate before the check valve. Might be slower
now.)

Does it flood because of water trying to leave your house can not leave?

Yes and no. Yes, because if all the water overflowing the sink went
directly into the sump and was pumped out, there wouldn't even be the
eigth inch of water on the floor (and whatever gets sucked up into the
cardboard boxes, and once into the big box of soap powder, things like
that. (I had to hammer the soap into pieces after that to use it in
the washer, but other than that it was fine.)

But no because I don't think that is what you meant.

BTW, I did a little more testing and was reminded that I also have the
AC overflow filling the sump, and that starts 4 feet above the floor.
NO water was coming in through the corrugated pipes from outside, so
the AC was enough to fill the sump 10 inches in only about 10 minutes,
although when the AC went off, the dripping stopped. I guess when the
water level reaches those corrugated pipes, if they are empty, the AC
condensate would have to fill them before it could overflow the sump.

I did some testing, and I've been recalling past testing, wrt this:

Well this depends. I can unplug my sump now and the water will raise
quickly to the level of the drain tiles and slow down while the tiles
are backfilling with water. So you have to wait a considerable time for
those tiles to fill up.

In my case, that would be the perforated corrugated plastic pipes??
If not, what are the tiles?

Then since you have previously lowered the
ground water level around yoru house by sumping, you will have to wait
till the ground water level raises as well.

This makes sense, but in my case....

When I did the testing, I found that I could do this several times in
a row, switchingn on the pump by hand in between. And it filled just
as fast the last time as the first, I think.

Does that mean the perforations in the pipe weren't big enough and the
water was backing up outside? Well I don'pt know except that there
was no water coming through the walls.

So if you unplug the pump and it only raises to 6" from the top of the
pit, you still have to wait a few days to know for sure if this level is
settled. And yes you also need to know what will happen to it in a rain
storm.

I'd be afraid to let the test run when I was sleeping, but I will try
for 8 hours next time there is enough rain.

Like I say, even though there was some rain yesterday, when I tested a
couple hours later, no water came out of the pipes. The windows were
shut, AC on, and I don't know if it actually rained. I heard thunder,
that's all.


Carl


Meirman
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replying to Matt, brandon schwab wrote:
I just thought of a better way than installing expensive sump pumps that may
fail over time and require the use of electric dedicated circuits. Hopefully
my idea works which i am pretty sure it will. I will get on the patent asap.

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