Anybody know why I shouldn't replace my old NG water heater with a
tankless other than the higher cost?

lid (GALIER) wrote:
Anybody know why I shouldn't replace my old NG water heater with a
tankless other than the higher cost?

I am in the same market. I am waiting for a gas installer - they seem to
be independent folks :-)
I have chosen a Rennai Tankless - expensive - but efficient. I currently
have two electric water heaters and the city here gives you $450 to
replace an electric with a gas heater.
In my case - it is more important to me to move the water heater from 90
feet away to right next to my bathrooms. I do not like waiting 2 minutes
for hot water in my shower or sinks.
They seem to be and elegant install. I went to see one at a local
restaurant. It is a small box - 2 x 2 x 1 feet - that hangs on the
outside wall. No vents are needed because it will be outside. It igniter
runs by battery. Just two coppers and one gas pipe go to it. My gas
meter is just 3 feet away.

Harry

GALIER wrote:
Anybody know why I shouldn't replace my old NG water heater with a
tankless other than the higher cost?

I would start by asking you way you want to?

On the list of possible issues is the question of how familiar your
local plumbers are with the system.


--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

Depending where you leave, the water temperature may be too cold for the
system. You should inquire on this.

Eric.

"GALIER" wrote in message
news:1df94$426e49b3$455da0d2$20228@allthenewsgroup s.com...
Anybody know why I shouldn't replace my old NG water heater with a
tankless other than the higher cost?

On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 14:20:59 GMT, "Joseph Meehan"
wrote:

GALIER wrote:
Anybody know why I shouldn't replace my old NG water heater with a
tankless other than the higher cost?

I would start by asking you way you want to?

On the list of possible issues is the question of how familiar your
local plumbers are with the system.



On a related note, conventional HW heaters are so easy to replace that
if you should have a failure, you can have a new one installed before
the end of the day in most urban areas.

If you tankless needs parts or a replacement, can you feel confident
that it will be up and running with a minimum of downtime?

In some applications, restaurants and other businesses, that could be
a critical factor.

Beachcomber

"GALIER" wrote in message
news:1df94$426e49b3$455da0d2$20228@allthenewsgroup s.com...
Anybody know why I shouldn't replace my old NG water heater with a
tankless other than the higher cost?

These are very common in Europe. I lived over there for years and always had
hot water instantly. Of course, the manunfacturers available here likely
different from Europe. It's best to talk with someone in the area who
already owns the one you are considering.

I was told by a plumber that if I wanted one of those, I would also have to
replace my 1/2 inch gas line with a 3/4 inch line which would add
considerable cost to an upgrade. check on the requirements of the heater
you want and the size of your supply line to know if this will be an issue.


"GALIER" wrote in message
news:1df94$426e49b3$455da0d2$20228@allthenewsgroup s.com...
Anybody know why I shouldn't replace my old NG water heater with a
tankless other than the higher cost?

I am also interested in these tankless heaters... What concerns me is
the minimum flow rate to trigger the heating action... Would a faucet
that was not on full blast (ie a trickle for washing dishes) be enough
flow to trigger the heater?

On 2005-04-26, JDS wrote:

I am also interested in these tankless heaters... What concerns me is
the minimum flow rate to trigger the heating action...

This is one of the specs the manufacturers publish, I've seen 0.5 gpm,
0.66 gpm, and 0.75 gpm. That's the hot water portion of the demand,
so 1 gpm of warm water might only be 0.6 gpm of hot water, say.

Would a faucet that was not on full blast (ie a trickle for washing
dishes) be enough flow to trigger the heater?

I believe a kitchen faucet is required to be max 2.5 gpm these days.
So you couldn't run a trickle, but could still run it fairly low.
Perhaps someone who has one of these tankless water heaters could
comment?

Cheers, Wayne

"JDS" wrote:
I am also interested in these tankless heaters... What concerns me is
the minimum flow rate to trigger the heating action... Would a faucet
that was not on full blast (ie a trickle for washing dishes) be enough
flow to trigger the heater?

I've had a Takagi for a couple of years. The only problem with faucets is it
takes longer to get warm water than with a tanked unit (the heater doesn't come
on "full bore" with at low flow, so it takes longer to heat up the heat
exchanger). Never had a problem with it simply not triggering.

Turn on flow rates differ but are around 1/2 - 1 gpm so it will not
trickle out hot. I have a small 117000 Bosch and the savings are worth
it , it needs a 1/2" gas line to 10- ft. then 3/4 if further away.
Larger 2 shower units need 3/4 line. Bosch Takagi and Rinnai are the
main names and most are made in Japan. My unit will heat easily 34f
incomming to a hot shower without being set on high. The larger more
efficient units will really handle 3 showers. Ratings are key, the gpm
and temp rise. Takagi has a new unit that is the highest efficiency made
at 92% Ng

(m Ransley) wrote:
Takagi has a new unit that is the highest efficiency made at 92% Ng

The T-H1 has got some killer specs, but at three times the price of the T-K2, I
sort've doubt they're aiming at the home market...

3x the price I did not know that. The price makes me happy with my 600$
small 82% Bosch

"wmrah" wrote in message
...
"GALIER" wrote in message
news:1df94$426e49b3$455da0d2$20228@allthenewsgroup s.com...
Anybody know why I shouldn't replace my old NG water heater with a
tankless other than the higher cost?

These are very common in Europe. I lived over there for years and always
had
hot water instantly. Of course, the manunfacturers available here likely
different from Europe. It's best to talk with someone in the area who
already owns the one you are considering.

Tankless water heaters were a standard "low end" product when I lived in
Asia (~15 years). The better apartments had hot water tanks.

My experience with gas-powered tankless heaters is that they are, indeed, a
low-end product, where the primary advantage was that they didn't take up
any floorspace. (The average apartment in Asia was about 600 sq ft total,
so every inch of space was used.)

People on this thread are asking the right questions, especially about flow
rate. In my experience it was difficult to balance temperature and flow
rate; when you decreased the flow of hot water to get a comfortable
temperature, you could reach a point at which the gas suddenly cut off and
you went to full cold. Given the low cost and reliability of conventional
hot water tanks, I don't think the pay back period of a tankless heater is
persuasive.

I suspect installing a tankless water heater is a little bit like buying a
diesel car, being responsible for the two happiest days of your life -- the
day you first start to use it, and the day you finally get rid of the
#%$&^%# thing.

When we remodelled, I chose instead to put an additional hot water tank
adjacent to the new bathroom, which gives me almost instant hot water.
Regards --

Temperature and flow rate is now computer controled with a full
modulating gas valve so temp stays the same when it is on from start to
full flow. Older units lacked this. at very low flow it will turn off,
that is a drawback but it doesnt bother me as all my faucets are low
flow so I ususly just turn them on full. My payback will be 4-5 yrs
switching out an electric tank. I have no complaints after 2.5 yrs.

Yes - the new tankless units are nothing like the low end stuff we saw
in the past in Europe. Today - the new units are computer controlled -
and are relatively bulletproof. Some are 92% efficient. They have
digital wall gauges that allow you to tune in the temp you want within
one degree.

I am planning to replace two 50 gallon electric water heaters with one
unit - Rennai - Bosch - Akagi.

My city give a $450 rebate for converting and electric water heater to
gas - so I may put two in the house - that way I have one as a back up
:-)

Harry

"GALIER" wrote in message
news:1df94$426e49b3$455da0d2$20228@allthenewsgroup s.com...
Anybody know why I shouldn't replace my old NG water heater with a
tankless other than the higher cost?


We put the bigger bosch tankless water heater in our new house last
fall---hard to compare savings without a base line but sure do like never
running out of hot water! Downsides are that it takes awhile to get hot
water(wife complins!) and sometimes at less than full throttle hw is lost
temporarily--but can put 400gals of HW in the hot tub that is a plus for us
for sure!

When we build the next place will bet that swmbo will make sure that there
will be some form of instat hot water in HER bathroom!
ymmv

Buzz

GALIER writes:

Anybody know why I shouldn't replace my old NG water heater with a
tankless other than the higher cost?

The old man on the radio is a huckster pitchman. Don't buy anything he
sells.

"World Traveler" wrote in message
link.net...

Tankless water heaters were a standard "low end" product when I lived in
Asia (~15 years). The better apartments had hot water tanks.


Tankless heaters now have computerized controls that eliminate the wide
temperature fluctuations you experience with the older models. I was also in
Asia during that time frame and remember how quickly I woke up after taking
a shower where the water temp swung 40 degrees.





My experience with gas-powered tankless heaters is that they are, indeed,
a
low-end product, where the primary advantage was that they didn't take up
any floorspace. (The average apartment in Asia was about 600 sq ft total,
so every inch of space was used.)

People on this thread are asking the right questions, especially about
flow
rate. In my experience it was difficult to balance temperature and flow
rate; when you decreased the flow of hot water to get a comfortable
temperature, you could reach a point at which the gas suddenly cut off and
you went to full cold. Given the low cost and reliability of conventional
hot water tanks, I don't think the pay back period of a tankless heater is
persuasive.

I suspect installing a tankless water heater is a little bit like buying a
diesel car, being responsible for the two happiest days of your life --
the
day you first start to use it, and the day you finally get rid of the
#%$&^%# thing.

When we remodelled, I chose instead to put an additional hot water tank
adjacent to the new bathroom, which gives me almost instant hot water.
Regards --

"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message
. ..

The old man on the radio is a huckster pitchman. Don't buy anything he
sells.

Really, you know this how?

George writes:

The old man on the radio is a huckster pitchman. Don't buy anything he
sells.

Really, you know this how?

He sells that $500 boom box. That vacuum cleaner. Tankless water heaters.
Stuff for suckers who wanna believe.

The Rinnai has a continuously modulating gas valve, goes from low to
high flow with outlet temperature + or- two degrees. I don't know what
the minimum flow is. They do have a very large size burner, 199,000
BTU/Hr max. You will need a large gas pipe for that. Not simple to
work on either. There are screens that can clog up from crud in the
water. Very efficient however, no standby losses either. Some good &
some bad to them.

Stretch

His $500 boom box is now over a grand............it's like 1200 bucks
or more.(this model also has a 5 disc changer with it I believe)

The guy that sells the vaccum cleaners is a different guy. I always
hear that guy trying to throw in a free $100 iron too.

Tankless water heaters are not sold just by "the old man on the radio"
so I feel like they may have some potential. some others posting real
life experiences here are making a good argument "for"
tankless........at least as a supplemental piece. I am considering a
small one under the sink, as My home is Slab foundation and all the
water has to go through a cold slab to get to the
kitchen.............more than halfway across the house. Takes a while.


He sells that $500 boom box. That vacuum cleaner. Tankless water heaters.
Stuff for suckers who wanna believe.



Remove "YOURPANTIES" to reply

MUADIB®

http://www.angelfire.com/retro/sster...IN%20PAGE.html

one small step for man,.....
One giant leap for attorneys.

If there is a water shutoff, you can drain a tank model to get some water
for your personal use.

--

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com


"GALIER" wrote in message
news:1df94$426e49b3$455da0d2$20228@allthenewsgroup s.com...
Anybody know why I shouldn't replace my old NG water heater with a
tankless other than the higher cost?

My neighbor has a big house. He had two gas tank water heaters. He
replaced them with two "takagi" tankless water heaters - had them
installed for $500 each. Now this guy is a wealthy fellow and money does
not matter to him - service does. The tankless water heaters produce
endless instant hot water - no lag - no nothing - turn the faucet on -
hot water comes out now. He can have four showers running at once and
the hot water still does not run out.

The units are very small - less than 2 x 2 x 1. they do not require
electricity - so you have hot water even in a power failure. They have a
battery igniter.

A restaurant down the street has one. They do piles of dishes daily.
They depend on that "rennai" tankless water heater. It does a great job.
their business would go down without it. they have been using it two
years without one down time.

Also - since we leave our home a lot - we will not be heating a tank of
water and wasting energy keeping it warm. When you are away - everything
is off. It only turns on when you turn on the hot water faucet. I am
going to install my tankless heater on the outside wall just 4 inches
from my showers.

Also my city will give me $450 for every electric water heater I replace
with a gas one - so this is an easy decision.

The new technology in tankless water heater is fantastic. Yes -
conventional water heaters are cheaper than tankless - but but tankless
are cheaper to run and much more efficient.

I am going to install one or two.

Harry

"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message
. ..
George writes:

The old man on the radio is a huckster pitchman. Don't buy anything he
sells.

Really, you know this how?

He sells that $500 boom box. That vacuum cleaner. Tankless water
heaters.
Stuff for suckers who wanna believe.

OK, so you are saying he is a credible guy then? That tankless water heater
is made by a very reputable company (Rinnai) and happens to be work really
well.

In article ,
OK, so you are saying he is a credible guy then? That tankless water heater
is made by a very reputable company (Rinnai) and happens to be work really
well.

Bosch - Takagi - Rennai all make great tankless gas water heaters.
Rennai seems to be the top of the line.

The old man on the radio is a huckster pitchman. Don't buy anything
he
sells.


IMO, Paul Harvey is a rather credible individuals and I'd not hesitate to
buy anything he is selling. I'd rate him as one of the most interesting
people in the world. Honest.

Harry Everhart writes:

The new technology in tankless water heater is fantastic. Yes -
conventional water heaters are cheaper than tankless - but but tankless
are cheaper to run and much more efficient.

This defies elementary thermodynamics. A smaller heat exchanger with less
time of contact cannot possibly be more efficent.

In article ,
Richard J Kinch wrote:
The new technology in tankless water heater is fantastic. Yes -
conventional water heaters are cheaper than tankless - but but tankless
are cheaper to run and much more efficient.

This defies elementary thermodynamics. A smaller heat exchanger with less
time of contact cannot possibly be more efficent.

I am not that smart either. Here are some charts from the Department of
Energy -

http://adwords.tanklesswater.com/ed_costsavings.asp

According to Richard J Kinch :
Harry Everhart writes:

The new technology in tankless water heater is fantastic. Yes -
conventional water heaters are cheaper than tankless - but but tankless
are cheaper to run and much more efficient.

This defies elementary thermodynamics. A smaller heat exchanger with less
time of contact cannot possibly be more efficent.

In raising X amount of water Y degrees. Yes.

But that's not all there is. What about all the energy you waste
when extra hot water you've had to run for 60 seconds to get _any_
warm water to the tap, sits in the pipes overnight? With tankless,
that's not an issue.

Efficiency, to mean anything, has to include the whole system. Including
heat loss off the pipes.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

Chris Lewis writes:

But that's not all there is. What about all the energy you waste
when extra hot water you've had to run for 60 seconds to get _any_
warm water to the tap, sits in the pipes overnight? With tankless,
that's not an issue.

That's a point-of-use issue. Nothing to do with tankless.

Harry Everhart writes:

I am not that smart either. Here are some charts from the Department of
Energy -

http://adwords.tanklesswater.com/ed_costsavings.asp

That's a boob-bait Web site with stupid claims, not a government source
(not that Jimmy Carter's DOE would necessarily be sensible).

Not only no standby loss but no pilot loss and no thermal loss on pipe
to tank. My small Bosch is 2 D cell battery ignition, no pilot.
Effecienceis of tankless are 81 - 94%, 94% for the new Takaki. Tanks
calcify on the bottom with scale. I recently removed a tank in my apt
building on relativly soft water. There was 14" of scale in the tank,
now that kills efficiency. Tankless dont loose efficiency as tanks do.
There are many sites showing individual units efficiencies. Overall
going from electric tank to Ng tankless my bills are down 75%.

m Ransley wrote:

Not only no standby loss...

I have the impression that lots of tankless heaters
keep a small part of themselves warm all the time.

...I recently removed a tank in my apt building on relativly soft water.
There was 14" of scale in the tank, now that kills efficiency.

That wouldn't change the efficiency of an electric heater.

Tankless dont loose efficiency as tanks do.

They never scale?

Nick

In article ,
Richard J Kinch wrote:
That's a point-of-use issue. Nothing to do with tankless.

Dear Rich -
No matter what we say - you are not going to be impressed. That fellow
told you he saves 75% on his tankless gas water heater - but your mind
is made up. We don't want to argue with you - if you don't agree - don't
buy one. But we have studied this to the point of purchasing them. My
neighbor put two in just a few months ago - and loves them. You seem to
just want to argue. I do not like evangelists that try to convince folks
to do something pro or con - especially when they have nothing but a
cranky opinion - but no data to back it up. On top of all that - my
city likes them so much - they are willing to give me $900 in rebates
just to install them. As much as I value your opinion - please present
information showing that tankless heaters aren't as good as tank types.
I am willing to listen to other information - my mind is not closed -
but it must be more than someone just arguing for argument's sake.
Thanks for caring about us so much to try to convince us not to make a
mistake.
Harry

If you get one with a standing pilot sure there is the pilot loss. That
is the Bosch 80-81 % units . From pilotless efficiency goes from 82% up
to 94% depending on unit and manufacturer. Harry E., Rich Kinch has
been all over trying to put them down and calling companies like Bosch
fly by night. Bosch should anyone care to look at a company report is
like our GE or GM , big and established.
Kinch probably can`t afford one so this is his justification and cuts
them down baselisly

Harry Everhart writes:

As much as I value your opinion - please present
information showing that tankless heaters aren't as good as tank
types.

As regards efficiency, I did: simple thermodynamics, time, and space.
Heat exchangers become *less* efficent as they get smaller and faster,
not more.

I do not like evangelists that try to convince folks
to do something pro or con - especially when they have nothing but a
cranky opinion - but no data to back it up.

I am not an "evangelist". I am a skeptical engineer, with reasons to be
skeptical. The burden of proof is on you if you claim the old ways are
obsolete.

Look at the hucksters and swindlers that sell these things.

Look at the testimonials instead of metered testing.

Look at the performance claims that defy elementary BTU calculations.

Look at the absurd claims about how bad conventional units are.

No matter what we say - you are not going to be impressed.

Wrong. I am impressed by facts and analysis. Not testimonials that
defy freshman physics.

We don't want to argue with you - if you don't agree - don't buy one.

This is exactly the response of those who won't accept the truth when
the truth doesn't fit their candyland ideas. This is the response of
advocates of perpetual motion machines, 100 mpg automobiles, 50000X Rife
microscopes, lifetime paint, magnetic water softeners, septic digesters,
$1200 boom boxes, bagless vacuum cleaners, waterless cookers, light
bulbs that don't burn out, plates that don't break, stuff to pour in
your gas tank to fix your engine, knives that never need sharpening,
glue that sticks to everything, and the fountain of youth.

Show me some engineering analysis and testing. Guys with meters and
thermometers who aren't trying to sell something. Not sales
brochures, not testimonials, not reports from across the ocean in
another alphabet and language. Loan *me* and unit and let me run it
through my laboratory.

Show me somebody in the USA who makes these things that I can sue when
their claims of 75 percent savings is proven to be the bunk that it is.

Kinch the Grinch you are a true moron

Hey Kinch the Grinch you Stupid ****, did you know you can get a 96.7%
efficient furnace. Did you know you can get a 97% efficient WH tank, go
back in your cave kinchy.