Greetings all,

I have a Heil furnace that has a problem. I was hoping that someone
here could help me out.

The problem is the igniter sparks and lights the pilot and then the
pilot goes out right away. I spoke w/ a friend who is a HVAC tech and
he told me that it was most likely the flame sensor. Ok so I took the
unit apart and removed the igniter assy looking for a flame sensor. I
couldn't find one. The closest I can figure is that the igniter and
flame sensor are one and the same.

After I took the whole assembly out and cleaned it up per my friend's
instructions, it still didn't work. I used a fine emery cloth and
followed up by spraying the assembly w/ Zep Elec contact cleaner to
make
sure I flushed away any particles I may have created by sanding.

Tonight I turned the igniter 90 degrees in it's mount and voila, the
pilot stayed on for more than a second and the burners fired up.

The igniter unit has what appears to be a high tension lead going from
the end of it to a box made by Honeywell. There is also a grey ground
wire coming from the unit's mounting bracket that goes to the "ground"
terminal on the same box. That doesn't really make sense as the
furnace should be grounded anyway but that may there just for
redundancy.

The furnace was installed in 1992 or 1993. I don't know the exact
model of the furnace but in doing some research, I found a picture of
the igniter assembly online. It can be viewed he

http://www.expertappliance.com/heil-heating.html

It is about 1/3 of the way down the page and is called a "Pilot
Igniter Sensor"

The only way I can figure is that the Honeywell box sends out a high
voltage to the unit in order to fire the spark, and then waits for a
signal coming back on the same line telling the microprocessor that
the flame is present and it is okay to fire the secondary part of the
gas valve. The valve has three wires going to it and I figure that it
must be a two stage valve that fires the pilot at the first stage and
the burners at the second.

My questions is this. Is there any way other than just swapping parts
to determine whether it is the igniter/flame sensor assembly or the
Honeywell box causing me grief?


Any answers would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

EBB

Dick wrote:

Greetings all,

I have a Heil furnace that has a problem. I was hoping that someone
here could help me out.

The problem is the igniter sparks and lights the pilot and then the
pilot goes out right away. I spoke w/ a friend who is a HVAC tech and
he told me that it was most likely the flame sensor. Ok so I took the
unit apart and removed the igniter assy looking for a flame sensor. I
couldn't find one. The closest I can figure is that the igniter and
flame sensor are one and the same.

After I took the whole assembly out and cleaned it up per my friend's
instructions, it still didn't work. I used a fine emery cloth and
followed up by spraying the assembly w/ Zep Elec contact cleaner to
make
sure I flushed away any particles I may have created by sanding.

Tonight I turned the igniter 90 degrees in it's mount and voila, the
pilot stayed on for more than a second and the burners fired up.

The igniter unit has what appears to be a high tension lead going from
the end of it to a box made by Honeywell. There is also a grey ground
wire coming from the unit's mounting bracket that goes to the "ground"
terminal on the same box. That doesn't really make sense as the
furnace should be grounded anyway but that may there just for
redundancy.

The furnace was installed in 1992 or 1993. I don't know the exact
model of the furnace but in doing some research, I found a picture of
the igniter assembly online. It can be viewed he

http://www.expertappliance.com/heil-heating.html

It is about 1/3 of the way down the page and is called a "Pilot
Igniter Sensor"

The only way I can figure is that the Honeywell box sends out a high
voltage to the unit in order to fire the spark, and then waits for a
signal coming back on the same line telling the microprocessor that
the flame is present and it is okay to fire the secondary part of the
gas valve. The valve has three wires going to it and I figure that it
must be a two stage valve that fires the pilot at the first stage and
the burners at the second.

My questions is this. Is there any way other than just swapping parts
to determine whether it is the igniter/flame sensor assembly or the
Honeywell box causing me grief?


Any answers would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

EBB

You're correct on all counts.

Do a GOOGLE for: Flame Rectification
for how they sense the flame.

It would take a very specific tester to check
sensor properties. Much easier to swap them out.

Jim

Thanks guys. I just posted earlier today about an issue with a Coleman
furnace. I've had to replace the ignitor 2 or 3 times in 10 years. I
replaced them often enough that I bought a spare. I'd talked to 2 HVAC guys
that were looking everywhere but at the ignitor/sensor. I had bypassed
switches, replaced a thermostat, and was banging my head against a wall.

After reading your Heil question, I thought maybe the sensor is bad even
though the ignitor hasn't burned out. It was worth a shot. So after
reading your post...I now have heat. Thanks for setting a lightbulb off in
my head.

Michael H.
"Speedy Jim" wrote in message
...
Dick wrote:

Greetings all,

I have a Heil furnace that has a problem. I was hoping that someone
here could help me out.

The problem is the igniter sparks and lights the pilot and then the
pilot goes out right away. I spoke w/ a friend who is a HVAC tech and
he told me that it was most likely the flame sensor. Ok so I took the
unit apart and removed the igniter assy looking for a flame sensor. I
couldn't find one. The closest I can figure is that the igniter and
flame sensor are one and the same.

After I took the whole assembly out and cleaned it up per my friend's
instructions, it still didn't work. I used a fine emery cloth and
followed up by spraying the assembly w/ Zep Elec contact cleaner to
make
sure I flushed away any particles I may have created by sanding.

Tonight I turned the igniter 90 degrees in it's mount and voila, the
pilot stayed on for more than a second and the burners fired up. The
igniter unit has what appears to be a high tension lead going from
the end of it to a box made by Honeywell. There is also a grey ground
wire coming from the unit's mounting bracket that goes to the "ground"
terminal on the same box. That doesn't really make sense as the
furnace should be grounded anyway but that may there just for
redundancy. The furnace was installed in 1992 or 1993. I don't know the
exact
model of the furnace but in doing some research, I found a picture of
the igniter assembly online. It can be viewed he

http://www.expertappliance.com/heil-heating.html

It is about 1/3 of the way down the page and is called a "Pilot
Igniter Sensor"

The only way I can figure is that the Honeywell box sends out a high
voltage to the unit in order to fire the spark, and then waits for a
signal coming back on the same line telling the microprocessor that
the flame is present and it is okay to fire the secondary part of the
gas valve. The valve has three wires going to it and I figure that it
must be a two stage valve that fires the pilot at the first stage and
the burners at the second.

My questions is this. Is there any way other than just swapping parts
to determine whether it is the igniter/flame sensor assembly or the
Honeywell box causing me grief? Any answers would be greatly
appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

EBB

You're correct on all counts.

Do a GOOGLE for: Flame Rectification
for how they sense the flame.

It would take a very specific tester to check
sensor properties. Much easier to swap them out.

Jim

I saw where you also posted this on the alt.hvac group. It's funny because
I posted my problem there today as well. I got treated the same as you,
which was pretty rough.

I was caught off-guard, as I've never been treated that way on any usenet
group, and found it quite surprising. You would think you were wrecking the
HVAC profession as personal as they take it. The one poster (bu** sh&&, or
something close to that) is a major jerk.

Anyway, good luck, and thanks for getting me on the right path.


"Dick" wrote in message
...

Greetings all,

I have a Heil furnace that has a problem. I was hoping that someone
here could help me out.

The problem is the igniter sparks and lights the pilot and then the
pilot goes out right away. I spoke w/ a friend who is a HVAC tech and
he told me that it was most likely the flame sensor. Ok so I took the
unit apart and removed the igniter assy looking for a flame sensor. I
couldn't find one. The closest I can figure is that the igniter and
flame sensor are one and the same.

After I took the whole assembly out and cleaned it up per my friend's
instructions, it still didn't work. I used a fine emery cloth and
followed up by spraying the assembly w/ Zep Elec contact cleaner to
make
sure I flushed away any particles I may have created by sanding.

Tonight I turned the igniter 90 degrees in it's mount and voila, the
pilot stayed on for more than a second and the burners fired up.

The igniter unit has what appears to be a high tension lead going from
the end of it to a box made by Honeywell. There is also a grey ground
wire coming from the unit's mounting bracket that goes to the "ground"
terminal on the same box. That doesn't really make sense as the
furnace should be grounded anyway but that may there just for
redundancy.

The furnace was installed in 1992 or 1993. I don't know the exact
model of the furnace but in doing some research, I found a picture of
the igniter assembly online. It can be viewed he

http://www.expertappliance.com/heil-heating.html

It is about 1/3 of the way down the page and is called a "Pilot
Igniter Sensor"

The only way I can figure is that the Honeywell box sends out a high
voltage to the unit in order to fire the spark, and then waits for a
signal coming back on the same line telling the microprocessor that
the flame is present and it is okay to fire the secondary part of the
gas valve. The valve has three wires going to it and I figure that it
must be a two stage valve that fires the pilot at the first stage and
the burners at the second.

My questions is this. Is there any way other than just swapping parts
to determine whether it is the igniter/flame sensor assembly or the
Honeywell box causing me grief?


Any answers would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

EBB

The control box is looking for a DC signal from the sensor. The sensor
is the one with the HV lead going to it. Make sure the unit is
properly grounded, (fusebox,ignitor. If the unit still won't work, you
may have to replace the grey control box.On 23 Apr 2005 13:08:02
-0500, Dick wrote:


Greetings all,

I have a Heil furnace that has a problem. I was hoping that someone
here could help me out.

The problem is the igniter sparks and lights the pilot and then the
pilot goes out right away. I spoke w/ a friend who is a HVAC tech and
he told me that it was most likely the flame sensor. Ok so I took the
unit apart and removed the igniter assy looking for a flame sensor. I
couldn't find one. The closest I can figure is that the igniter and
flame sensor are one and the same.

After I took the whole assembly out and cleaned it up per my friend's
instructions, it still didn't work. I used a fine emery cloth and
followed up by spraying the assembly w/ Zep Elec contact cleaner to
make
sure I flushed away any particles I may have created by sanding.

Tonight I turned the igniter 90 degrees in it's mount and voila, the
pilot stayed on for more than a second and the burners fired up.

The igniter unit has what appears to be a high tension lead going from
the end of it to a box made by Honeywell. There is also a grey ground
wire coming from the unit's mounting bracket that goes to the "ground"
terminal on the same box. That doesn't really make sense as the
furnace should be grounded anyway but that may there just for
redundancy.

The furnace was installed in 1992 or 1993. I don't know the exact
model of the furnace but in doing some research, I found a picture of
the igniter assembly online. It can be viewed he

http://www.expertappliance.com/heil-heating.html

It is about 1/3 of the way down the page and is called a "Pilot
Igniter Sensor"

The only way I can figure is that the Honeywell box sends out a high
voltage to the unit in order to fire the spark, and then waits for a
signal coming back on the same line telling the microprocessor that
the flame is present and it is okay to fire the secondary part of the
gas valve. The valve has three wires going to it and I figure that it
must be a two stage valve that fires the pilot at the first stage and
the burners at the second.

My questions is this. Is there any way other than just swapping parts
to determine whether it is the igniter/flame sensor assembly or the
Honeywell box causing me grief?


Any answers would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

EBB

On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 03:26:49 GMT, "Red Sox Fan"
wrote:

I saw where you also posted this on the alt.hvac group. It's funny because
I posted my problem there today as well. I got treated the same as you,
which was pretty rough.

I was caught off-guard, as I've never been treated that way on any usenet
group, and found it quite surprising. You would think you were wrecking the
HVAC profession as personal as they take it. The one poster (bu** sh&&, or
something close to that) is a major jerk.

Maybe if you had bothered to find out that alt.hvac is not a
home-owner help group, and posted here in A.H.R. first, like you
should have, you wouldn't have had to learn the hard way.

Just because a Usenet group exists, that doesn't make it a
DIY'r help group.


Click every day here to feed an animal that needs you today !!!

http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'

HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/

So maybe you guys over in alt.hvac could be a bit more civil when
someone asks a question rather than flaming them and calling them
"troll bait".

Just tell the individual that it is a "professional" group and
re-direct them here.

Or is that how you guys amuse yourselves?


On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 17:10:50 GMT,
wrote:

On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 03:26:49 GMT, "Red Sox Fan"
wrote:

I saw where you also posted this on the alt.hvac group. It's funny because
I posted my problem there today as well. I got treated the same as you,
which was pretty rough.

I was caught off-guard, as I've never been treated that way on any usenet
group, and found it quite surprising. You would think you were wrecking the
HVAC profession as personal as they take it. The one poster (bu** sh&&, or
something close to that) is a major jerk.

Maybe if you had bothered to find out that alt.hvac is not a
home-owner help group, and posted here in A.H.R. first, like you
should have, you wouldn't have had to learn the hard way.

Just because a Usenet group exists, that doesn't make it a
DIY'r help group.


Click every day here to feed an animal that needs you today !!!

http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'

HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/

Now the grey control box is doing nothing. The relays stopped
clicking and everything. I'm going to replace the control box and the
igniter/sensor tomorrow. The sensor is only around $25 but the box is
gonna be pretty expensive.

I found a supply house online that happens to be a mile or so from me
and their pricing is quite fair.

One thing perplexes me though. When I turn off the gas at the
solenoid valve, the unit would just continue sparking until I would
either turn the gas back on or cut power to the furnace. As soon as
the pilot would light (albeit for only a second) the sparking would
cease. Does anyone know the logic behind that? Does the control box
know that the gas has begun feeding so it stops the igniter from
sparking or does the DC signal coming back from the igniter/sensor
tell the controller that the flame is present and to stop sparking? I
guess that would determine whether the igniter/sensor is doing it's
job or not.

Thanks.
Dick
On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 08:26:04 GMT, wrote:

The control box is looking for a DC signal from the sensor. The sensor
is the one with the HV lead going to it. Make sure the unit is
properly grounded, (fusebox,ignitor. If the unit still won't work, you
may have to replace the grey control box.On 23 Apr 2005 13:08:02
-0500, Dick wrote:


Greetings all,

I have a Heil furnace that has a problem. I was hoping that someone
here could help me out.

The problem is the igniter sparks and lights the pilot and then the
pilot goes out right away. I spoke w/ a friend who is a HVAC tech and
he told me that it was most likely the flame sensor. Ok so I took the
unit apart and removed the igniter assy looking for a flame sensor. I
couldn't find one. The closest I can figure is that the igniter and
flame sensor are one and the same.

After I took the whole assembly out and cleaned it up per my friend's
instructions, it still didn't work. I used a fine emery cloth and
followed up by spraying the assembly w/ Zep Elec contact cleaner to
make
sure I flushed away any particles I may have created by sanding.

Tonight I turned the igniter 90 degrees in it's mount and voila, the
pilot stayed on for more than a second and the burners fired up.

The igniter unit has what appears to be a high tension lead going from
the end of it to a box made by Honeywell. There is also a grey ground
wire coming from the unit's mounting bracket that goes to the "ground"
terminal on the same box. That doesn't really make sense as the
furnace should be grounded anyway but that may there just for
redundancy.

The furnace was installed in 1992 or 1993. I don't know the exact
model of the furnace but in doing some research, I found a picture of
the igniter assembly online. It can be viewed he

http://www.expertappliance.com/heil-heating.html

It is about 1/3 of the way down the page and is called a "Pilot
Igniter Sensor"

The only way I can figure is that the Honeywell box sends out a high
voltage to the unit in order to fire the spark, and then waits for a
signal coming back on the same line telling the microprocessor that
the flame is present and it is okay to fire the secondary part of the
gas valve. The valve has three wires going to it and I figure that it
must be a two stage valve that fires the pilot at the first stage and
the burners at the second.

My questions is this. Is there any way other than just swapping parts
to determine whether it is the igniter/flame sensor assembly or the
Honeywell box causing me grief?


Any answers would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

EBB

The control box is looking for a DC signal, somewhere between 0.1 and 5
microamps, depending on the brand of control. Most ignitors have
separate leads and electrodes for the ignitor and sensor. The wire
with the thick insulation is the spark , the other wire is the flame
sensor. Some controls use a single wire/electrode. If the electrode
does not have a good ground back to the control box, it will not work
well. You may need a competent tech to fix this, as it is, you are
playing with fire, no pun intended. With gas, screwing up could be
dangerous. You can also go through a lot of parts before you get it
fixed. You can also damage new parts if you wire it wrong. If it is
more than a bad ground, I suggest you call someone. It's not like the
old days when a homeowner could replace his own thermocouple. This
high tech stuff requires training to fix right.

Good luck

Stretch

Eurasmus B. Black posted for all of us...

So maybe you guys over in alt.hvac could be a bit more civil when
someone asks a question rather than flaming them and calling them
"troll bait".

Just tell the individual that it is a "professional" group and
re-direct them here.

Or is that how you guys amuse yourselves?

Maybe you and your kind could do a little research in advance of just belching out a
question and expecting the world to kneel before you...
--

Tekkie

Go back to your "professional group". Leave us DIY hacks to ourselves. You
could politely redirect someone, or just not reply at all if you cant't be
anything other than a jerk.
wrote in message
...
On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 03:26:49 GMT, "Red Sox Fan"
wrote:

I saw where you also posted this on the alt.hvac group. It's funny
because
I posted my problem there today as well. I got treated the same as you,
which was pretty rough.

I was caught off-guard, as I've never been treated that way on any usenet
group, and found it quite surprising. You would think you were wrecking
the
HVAC profession as personal as they take it. The one poster (bu** sh&&,
or
something close to that) is a major jerk.

Maybe if you had bothered to find out that alt.hvac is not a
home-owner help group, and posted here in A.H.R. first, like you
should have, you wouldn't have had to learn the hard way.

Just because a Usenet group exists, that doesn't make it a
DIY'r help group.


Click every day here to feed an animal that needs you today !!!

http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'

HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's
http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/

On 24 Apr 2005 15:37:01 -0500, Eurasmus B. Black
wrote:

So maybe you guys over in alt.hvac could be a bit more civil when
someone asks a question rather than flaming them and calling them
"troll bait".

Just tell the individual that it is a "professional" group and
re-direct them here.

That is EXACTLY what I do.

Only when one responds to that with a bunch of insults and
flames and whining do they get the same in return.


Click every day here to feed an animal that needs you today !!!

http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'

HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 02:47:07 GMT, "Red Sox Fan"
wrote:

Go back to your "professional group". Leave us DIY hacks to ourselves.

If certain idjits would stop dragging me in here, I would.
And being a DIY'r does not make anyone a 'hack'.

You
could politely redirect someone,

That is EXACTLY what I do.


or just not reply at all if you cant't be
anything other than a jerk.

Until they start getting all ****y about it, like that.

Then they get told to **** off.

So **** off.


Click every day here to feed an animal that needs you today !!!

http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'

HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/

wrote in message
...
On 24 Apr 2005 15:37:01 -0500, Eurasmus B. Black
wrote:

So maybe you guys over in alt.hvac could be a bit more civil when
someone asks a question rather than flaming them and calling them
"troll bait".

Just tell the individual that it is a "professional" group and
re-direct them here.

That is EXACTLY what I do.

Only when one responds to that with a bunch of insults and
flames and whining do they get the same in return.


Isnt that what we have tried over and over and over and over and over and
over and over again?



Click every day here to feed an animal that needs you today !!!

http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'

HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's
http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/