I've just hired a contractor to replace some French doors on our house. We
did due diligence in the bidding process, and hired the contractor that we
felt best about. So far, so good.

However, in their contract, they required, in addition to the maximum
allowed by State law, another deposit of 36% of the total contract, before
they start work. In this case, we're talking about 3-5 weeks before they
start work.

This contractor checks out in every other way, and the other bidders all
seemed to be requiring the same amount up front. They way they tap dance
around the law is buy sending in a two-man crew to "re-measure" the work
before ordering the doors. This, they claim, constitutes the start of work.

So my question is this: Is this an accepted way of doing business; and if
so, doesn't it completely side-step State contracting law?

I assume that this law was enacted to protect consumers against past abuses.

On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 13:04:25 -0700, Steve Murphy
wrote:

I've just hired a contractor to replace some French doors on our house. We
did due diligence in the bidding process, and hired the contractor that we
felt best about. So far, so good.

However, in their contract, they required, in addition to the maximum
allowed by State law, another deposit of 36% of the total contract, before
they start work. In this case, we're talking about 3-5 weeks before they
start work.

This contractor checks out in every other way, and the other bidders all
seemed to be requiring the same amount up front. They way they tap dance
around the law is buy sending in a two-man crew to "re-measure" the work
before ordering the doors. This, they claim, constitutes the start of work.

So my question is this: Is this an accepted way of doing business; and if
so, doesn't it completely side-step State contracting law?

I assume that this law was enacted to protect consumers against past abuses.

Sounds like the state attorney general might be interested in your
question.
They usually have a web site that permits complaints to filed
online.
JimL

The last guy I hired that "checked out" he demanded 50%. Well his
court records didnt check out as I found out to late, He looses 2-3
cases a year and oves apx 10 people 60000+ No I can`t collect. If they
are exterior doors you are allowed 1/8 off max in plumb, level and
square or warranty is voided for Anderson and Pella. Asking for extra
down is always a warning sign.

"Steve Murphy" wrote in message
...
I've just hired a contractor to replace some French doors on our house. We
did due diligence in the bidding process, and hired the contractor that we
felt best about. So far, so good.

However, in their contract, they required, in addition to the maximum
allowed by State law, another deposit of 36% of the total contract, before
they start work. In this case, we're talking about 3-5 weeks before they
start work.

This contractor checks out in every other way, and the other bidders all
seemed to be requiring the same amount up front. They way they tap dance
around the law is buy sending in a two-man crew to "re-measure" the work
before ordering the doors. This, they claim, constitutes the start of
work.

So my question is this: Is this an accepted way of doing business; and if
so, doesn't it completely side-step State contracting law?

I assume that this law was enacted to protect consumers against past
abuses.



If you follow Fred's advice you may lose out on the chance to use the best
contractor.

What % may I ask is the "allowed deposit" amount?

35-50% up front is normal on large jobs.

Colbyt

in article , Colbyt at
wrote on 4/4/05 2:35 PM:


"Steve Murphy" wrote in message
...
I've just hired a contractor to replace some French doors on our house. We
did due diligence in the bidding process, and hired the contractor that we
felt best about. So far, so good.

However, in their contract, they required, in addition to the maximum
allowed by State law, another deposit of 36% of the total contract, before
they start work. In this case, we're talking about 3-5 weeks before they
start work.

This contractor checks out in every other way, and the other bidders all
seemed to be requiring the same amount up front. They way they tap dance
around the law is buy sending in a two-man crew to "re-measure" the work
before ordering the doors. This, they claim, constitutes the start of
work.
in article , Colbyt at
wrote on 4/4/05 2:35 PM:

What % may I ask is the "allowed deposit" amount?

The maximum is the lesser of 10% or 1,000 -- on *any* job.


35-50% up front is normal on large jobs.

They are getting 46% of the total, and they are getting that about a month
before the work is scheduled to begin. This is for a $10K job. We're talking
about three sets of French doors.

As I said, everybody seems to be asking for about the same amount up front.
What bothers me is that it seems in blatant violation of State regulations.
Also, these companies all did a big song and dance about how solid and
solvent they are, yet they *need* nearly 50% up-front to cover their risk?

I don't know, it gives me the feeling of dealing with car dealers. And it
appears to be the norm in the industry. Oh well...

Thanks for the reply.

Steve Murphy wrote:
in article , Colbyt at

"Steve Murphy" wrote in message
I've just hired a contractor to replace some French doors on our
house. We
did due diligence in the bidding process, and hired the contractor
that we
felt best about. So far, so good.

However, in their contract, they required, in addition to the
maximum
allowed by State law, another deposit of 36% of the total
contract, before
they start work. In this case, we're talking about 3-5 weeks
before they
start work.

This contractor checks out in every other way, and the other
bidders all
seemed to be requiring the same amount up front. They way they tap
dance
around the law is buy sending in a two-man crew to "re-measure"
the work
before ordering the doors. This, they claim, constitutes the start
of
work.
in article , Colbyt at
wrote on 4/4/05 2:35 PM:

What % may I ask is the "allowed deposit" amount?

The maximum is the lesser of 10% or 1,000 -- on *any* job.


35-50% up front is normal on large jobs.

They are getting 46% of the total, and they are getting that about a
month
before the work is scheduled to begin. This is for a $10K job. We're
talking
about three sets of French doors.

As I said, everybody seems to be asking for about the same amount up
front.
What bothers me is that it seems in blatant violation of State
regulations.
Also, these companies all did a big song and dance about how solid
and
solvent they are, yet they *need* nearly 50% up-front to cover their
risk?

Are the doors special order? Are they on the hook for the cost of the
doors as soon as they're ordered? Is there a several week lead time on
the doors?

The start of work, in my mind, is when operations on your behalf
commence. Whether that's design work, special ordering materials or
the like.

I suppose to illustrate...if the start of work was based on the first
day of construction/demolition, and I wasn't allowed by state law to
bill until that point, I would open up your house, measure for the
doors, order them and go away until the doors were delivered. Somehow
I don't think that would make you any more happy than the current
situation.

If you've done your due diligence as you said. Gotten recommendations,
checked licensing, BBB, etc, investigated references and checked out
some of their work personally...my question is, If all of that checks
out, why do you feel they're out to screw you?

R

If the doors are expensive and he claims to be using the deposit for the
doors, tell him you want title do the door when they are ordered.


"RicodJour" wrote in message
ups.com...
Steve Murphy wrote:
in article , Colbyt at

"Steve Murphy" wrote in message
I've just hired a contractor to replace some French doors on our
house. We
did due diligence in the bidding process, and hired the contractor
that we
felt best about. So far, so good.

However, in their contract, they required, in addition to the
maximum
allowed by State law, another deposit of 36% of the total
contract, before
they start work. In this case, we're talking about 3-5 weeks
before they
start work.

This contractor checks out in every other way, and the other
bidders all
seemed to be requiring the same amount up front. They way they tap
dance
around the law is buy sending in a two-man crew to "re-measure"
the work
before ordering the doors. This, they claim, constitutes the start
of
work.
in article , Colbyt at
wrote on 4/4/05 2:35 PM:

What % may I ask is the "allowed deposit" amount?

The maximum is the lesser of 10% or 1,000 -- on *any* job.


35-50% up front is normal on large jobs.

They are getting 46% of the total, and they are getting that about a
month
before the work is scheduled to begin. This is for a $10K job. We're
talking
about three sets of French doors.

As I said, everybody seems to be asking for about the same amount up
front.
What bothers me is that it seems in blatant violation of State
regulations.
Also, these companies all did a big song and dance about how solid
and
solvent they are, yet they *need* nearly 50% up-front to cover their
risk?

Are the doors special order? Are they on the hook for the cost of the
doors as soon as they're ordered? Is there a several week lead time on
the doors?

The start of work, in my mind, is when operations on your behalf
commence. Whether that's design work, special ordering materials or
the like.

I suppose to illustrate...if the start of work was based on the first
day of construction/demolition, and I wasn't allowed by state law to
bill until that point, I would open up your house, measure for the
doors, order them and go away until the doors were delivered. Somehow
I don't think that would make you any more happy than the current
situation.

If you've done your due diligence as you said. Gotten recommendations,
checked licensing, BBB, etc, investigated references and checked out
some of their work personally...my question is, If all of that checks
out, why do you feel they're out to screw you?

R

in article , RicodJour
at wrote on 4/4/05 3:25 PM:

Are the doors special order? Are they on the hook for the cost of the
doors as soon as they're ordered? Is there a several week lead time on
the doors?

I don't believe they are "special" order. This is what these guys do.

But there is a lead time for ordering the doors, although I suspect the
deposit exceeds the cost of the materials.


If you've done your due diligence as you said. Gotten recommendations,
checked licensing, BBB, etc, investigated references and checked out
some of their work personally...my question is, If all of that checks
out, why do you feel they're out to screw you?

Just continuing to do due diligence. I've heard several horror stories, and
the fact that their standard procedures appear in violation of State
regulations is a red flag. But as I said, everyone else seems to be
operating the same way. We took bids from seven different companies.

My main reason for posting the question was to hear from other folks. We've
gone ahead with this company, so only time will tell now.

Thanks for the reply.

"Steve Murphy" wrote

tearful tale of woe snipped

Why are you asking on Usenet? Call your State Contractor's Board.

Steve

in article bUj4e.72056$AN1.44812@fed1read03, SteveB at
wrote on 4/4/05 4:15 PM:

Why are you asking on Usenet? Call your State Contractor's Board.

Thanks for the reply.

I've been to State contractors' board website, as well as through their
phone system, and they only seem to handle complaints, not inquiries for
clarification. And I'm not inclined to file a complaint at this point.

Their site is explicit regarding the maximum deposit that can be asked for,
but they provide no clarification regarding allowances for materials, etc.

We feel comfortable with this company in general, and as I said, the other
companies also wanted a large deposit up-front (i.e., approx. 45% of total),
so I was hoping to hear opinions regarding this issue from other homeowners
and contractors.

Steve Murphy wrote:

My main reason for posting the question was to hear from other folks.
We've gone ahead with this company, so only time will tell now.

Well, then, it's too late to suggest escrow.

"Steve Murphy" wrote in message
I've been to State contractors' board website, as well as through their
phone system, and they only seem to handle complaints, not inquiries for
clarification. And I'm not inclined to file a complaint at this point.

Their site is explicit regarding the maximum deposit that can be asked
for,
but they provide no clarification regarding allowances for materials, etc.

We feel comfortable with this company in general, and as I said, the other
companies also wanted a large deposit up-front (i.e., approx. 45% of
total),
so I was hoping to hear opinions regarding this issue from other
homeowners
and contractors.


What state are you in? I've never heard of those laws here in New England.

It seems as thought he contractor is stretching the interpretation a bit but
I can also see that he'd want to cover his costs of material also. Laws
aside, it seems to be a regular practice to get 33% to 50% down depending on
the type of job. A contractor can really get stiffed if a customer decides
to cancel after material has been ordered.

I hope you get the good job you expect. Please report back with your
experience.

On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 15:10:22 -0700, Steve Murphy
scribbled this interesting note:

Also, these companies all did a big song and dance about how solid and
solvent they are, yet they *need* nearly 50% up-front to cover their risk?


Two comments he

One: it is "industry standard" to have payment in installments.
Typically in thirds.

Two: We don't typically follow "industry standards" on our jobs. In
almost all our contracts we state clearly "To be paid upon
completion."

Several factors go into this. Do you want to hire someone who can't
afford to pay for materials? You usually don't know this person so do
you trust him or her implicitly? We (the contractor) have some legal
recourse if you (the homeowner) fails to pay (mechanic's lien.) You
(the homeowner) have little legal recourse (except civil-like small
claims court or similar proceedings) if we (the contractor) fails to
deliver full value.

Of course, this being the U.S. anyone is free to sue anyone else, but
we've never been involved in anything like that (and even avoided
being dragged into an ugly divorce case once where on spouse anted the
other to pay for a new roof!)

Like everything else you read here, this is only our experience and
worth as much as you paid for it!:~) (and I offer a 100% money back
guarantee if not fully satisfied!:~)


--
John Willis
(Remove the Primes before e-mailing me)

in article , HeyBub at
wrote on 4/4/05 5:21 PM:

Well, then, it's too late to suggest escrow.

Yes, and it's probably too small an amount to bother.

I was mainly wondering what the norm was here, especially since the State
board's website has this issue in several places.

I guess the fact that everyone seems to be violating the regulation bothers
me some, as well as the fact that with almost 50% of the payment in their
hands before they even start, I have given up a great deal of control over
the project. Whatever...

Thanks for the reply.

in article , Edwin Pawlowski
at wrote on 4/4/05 6:26 PM:

What state are you in? I've never heard of those laws here in New England.

California. We're heavily into consumer protection here.

Where in New England are you?


It seems as thought he contractor is stretching the interpretation a bit

Which is an issue. If that's a pattern, we could easily end up arguing about
contract terms and scope of work.


A contractor can really get stiffed if a customer decides to cancel after
material has been ordered.

The contract gives him ample protection here.


Thanks for the reply.

in article , John Willis at
wrote on 4/4/05 6:37 PM:

One: it is "industry standard" to have payment in installments.
Typically in thirds.

No problem with that. Payment after project milestones are reached, when
work has been finished and approved.


Several factors go into this. Do you want to hire someone who can't
afford to pay for materials?

That is a concern. When making the sale, they continuously harped on how
long they have been in business and how many contractors go under, leaving
the customer in the lurch. Yet, they seem to have a problem covering
materials on a relatively small project.


Anyway, thank you everyone for the input. We are moving forward and we'll
see how it works out. This is our first significant home maintenance
project, so I'm entirely naïve. We have more work to do after this, so I
hope it doesn't turn into a long, painful process.

"Steve Murphy" wrote in message


What state are you in? I've never heard of those laws here in New
England.

California. We're heavily into consumer protection here.

Where in New England are you?


Connecticut. Home of the Attorney General that makes sure his name is in
the paper at least 5 days a week protecing us from evil.

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 19:39:18 -0700, Steve Murphy
wrote:


I guess the fact that everyone seems to be violating the regulation
bothers
me some, as well as the fact that with almost 50% of the payment in their
hands before they even start, I have given up a great deal of control
over
the project. Whatever...

From a contractor's perspective ... or at least this contractor's
perspective ... your situation may mean one of two things: The
contractor is fly by night and will run off with your money, or the
contractor is stable and solid but wants to be sure he cannot be out
of pocket in the event you turn out to be a deadbeat.

I can only tell you of situations here -- custom or special order
doors, custom cabinets and the like cannot be returned for credit.
If you default, the contractor is stuck with doors he doesn't want
and which probablhy cost him 40 percent of the contract price. (A ten
percent deposit doesn't do much for him.

I'm a general contractor -- I regularly pay fifty percent up front to
subtrades for cabinetry, garden or patio doors, hardwood flooring,
fireplaces and such items. This is to suppliers who are quite solvent
... and with whom I've been dealing for years.

You're right to wonder ... you're right to ask ... but unless there is
some other concern, it doesn't smell fishy to me.

Ken


Agreed. The last time I took on a job with special order items, I asked for
the amount to cover the machine. It was a unit that was for a commercial
building, and it alone was over $9500 wholesale. When the GC on site said
no, he would give 5% of it, I told him that there was no damn way I was
gonna get stuck with a unit that would not sell again for a couple of
years...it wasnt worth it to me.
The OWNER of the business told us to order it, and he would pay for it.

The lesson I learned was when I dropped over $20,000 for another commercial
job, and before the job could be complete, the owners of the business took
off and left EVERYONE holding the bag....my electrician was out almost as
much, and there wasnt a damn thing we could do.

State law here states 5%, unless its a special order item. Then you can get
as much as you want, within reason, and all a person really has to do is ask
for enough to cover the parts that he will be stuck with otherwise, and no
one other than that one GC has ever worried about it.
If they do, from an owners perspective, it means that the customer has other
motives...its a red flag even if all it is, is an overly cautious consumer.

Steve Murphy wrote:
wrote on 4/4/05 6:37 PM:
Several factors go into this. Do you want to hire someone who can't
afford to pay for materials?

That is a concern. When making the sale, they continuously harped on
how
long they have been in business and how many contractors go under,
leaving
the customer in the lurch. Yet, they seem to have a problem covering
materials on a relatively small project.

Steve, you seem to be confusing some issues here. The fact that the
contractor has been in business for a long time points to his ability
to handle the business end as well as the construction end. I'm not
sure why you are assuming that he has a "problem" covering the
materials.

In general, it's bad business for a contractor to finance a
construction project without charging you for the service. Eventually
the contractor will get burned. Maybe the Owner (not owner of the
contracting company) will lose his job, get a divorce, have a cash flow
problem, whatever. When the cash flow for the contractor stops or
slows the problems can pile up very quickly. Believe me, you don't
want to be anywhere near a contractor that is running into cash flow
problems. It's better for you to know that he is charging a healthy
amount (not exorbitant) and is able to keep your project rolling. Your
other bids seem to bear out that he's not being exorbitant.

Some states prohibit intermingling of funds - the money you pay for
your doors can't go to buy the siding on another guy's home. There's
really only one way to do that.

Anyway, thank you everyone for the input. We are moving forward and
we'll
see how it works out. This is our first significant home maintenance
project, so I'm entirely na=EFve. We have more work to do after this,
so I
hope it doesn't turn into a long, painful process.

New doors is a capital improvement. Not maintenance. Big difference
when you're doing your taxes!

When you find a good contractor and establish a relationship, you'll
stop worrying about this stuff. The contractor will also stop worrying
about you.

R

If they are custom doors, then a deposit would be required to cover the
cost of non-returnable merchandise. I see no reason for a deposit for
using something that is a standard stock item. I'd stay away from them.