"Choreboy" wrote in message
...
Rudy wrote:

A destructive transient cannot be blocked, stopped, or
absorbed. Series inductance will stop the transient? Fuse
will stop a transient? Does not happen. Numbers provided in
the previous post make that woefully obvious.

A few years back, there was a lightning storm in the neighborhood. One
hit
sounded really close aboard and the lights flickered a bit. Couldnt see
anything that got damaged but the next day when I went into the den to
work
on the computer, I smelled something like plastic burning. (BTW, I dont
leave my computer "on" when not in use).

I tried to power it up but no luck. I looked behind the desk and found
my
APC surge protector had no green lights on it. I opened up the case and
there was a bunch of fried circuits and melted plastic inside.
Fortunately,
APC warranteed the unit for 5 years so I got a new one for the cost of
shipping.

I "dont leave home without it" now. Now that I think about it..I'd
better
get one for my new Big Screen HDTV ASAP !!

Rudy

I was online when lightning hit a tree 25 feet from my service entrance.
My phone service went dead due to a blown fuse on the telephone pole,
but I had no damage. Like you, I've had good experience, but I wish I
could find statistics and I wish I knew how some models are designed to
be more reliable than others.

Choreboy

SOARS book on grounding has some easy text. Try your library.
IEEE 519 (I think) says for surge protection you need to do 2 of the 3
zones. One zone is the utility so that is out. Next is the service, next is
point of use. So as a user you can protect the service and point of use.

I just installed a GE made surge arrestor for my GE service. Just plugs in
to the buss and acts like a 2 pole breaker with a green light.
http://www.geindustrial.com/cwc/prod...g&lan g=en_US
incase your interested, other manufactures make them for their panels as
well.

I also have point of use protection. Most of the ones made today have
protection levels of around 330v. Remember Metal Oxide Varsities are UL
tested ONCE. Not twice. I replace all of my point of use stuff every 2 years
just before the Monsoons.

If your really into it test your grounding at your service. You will need to
beg or borrow special equipment for this. Check out
http://www.groundtesterstore.com/clamp/aemc3731.php
I have used one of these many times. Especially when driving grounds for
fall of potential is out of the question.
Other companies make them as well.

Choreboy still does not appreciate that my knowledge comes
from well beyond suffering damage. Suffering damage teaches
little. Notice how theory completely changes Choreboy's
conclusions - the computer protected itself.

I built protectors. Saw some fail spectacularly. Other
worked phenomenally when other unprotected appliances suffered
damage. Even replaces electronic components on damages
equipment to learn why damage happens - ie followed the
circuit path of surges. Experience is useless without the
associate theory.

From junior high school science, one must have both theory
and experience to have knowledge. One without the other is
nothing more than speculation. The theory and my decades of
experience is tempered by something that few can or are
willing to provide - the numbers.

Let's return to Rudy's post. The protector was so grossly
undersized as to abandon an adjacent computer to the
transient. Fortunately the computer had better internal
protection than the grossly undersized power strip. However
Rudy fell into thinking exactly what grossly undersized
protector manufacturers hope he will assume. He assumes a
damaged protector was providing protection. In reality, the
protector that remains functional after the surge is effective
protection. Effective protection means one never even knew
the transient existed.

Now to provide some additional facts. For example, was the
APC sitting between computer and the transient? Mechanically
yes. Electrically no. That surge hit both APC and computer
equally. The APC connects to AC electric as if it was a light
bulb - just like the computer. Choreboy - that is how the
protectors are constructed. They are called shunt mode
protectors because that is how they are wired.

Computers have internal protection. A transient too small
to overwhelm computer protection instead easily destroyed a
grossly undersized protector. Yes, undersized protector. How
many joules in that protector? Why is that plug-in protector
so grossly undersized? Rudy demonstrates why. He then
assumes an ineffective and burned protector did something.
Reality - that computer protected itself. A tiny transient
destroyed the grossly undersized plug-in protector.

Little difference whether the computer is on or off. First,
a powered off computer is always on; just like the TV.
Second, a power strip protector can even provide the transient
with a destructive path through adjacent computer. An
adjacent protector may even contribute to damage of a powered
off computer. No wonder those plug-in manufacturers avoid all
discussion about earthing.

More facts from one who even designed and tested this
stuff. But don't take my word for it. How many joules on
that plug-in protector? If that protector is effective, then
put up the numbers? I keep asking for numbers. Where are
those numbers - the joules?

Does zone of service suggest where a protector will be
effective? No. Those zones only define the electrical
characteristics of a transient. Those zones define where a
protector can be used safely - for human safety. Protectors
that are effective at the appliance are already inside the
appliance. Internal protection that can be overwhelmed if
protection is not installed in those other zones - ie properly
earthed at the service entrance. This is called secondary
protection.

BTW, the utility already has installed protection on the
utility wires. You should inspect this protection - the
primary protection:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

How does a 'point of use' protector provide protection?
When it makes a 'less than 10 foot' connection to earth
ground. If earthing is not provided, then the protector must
be moved to where earth ground exists: the service entrance.
Also called 'whole house' protector.

The recommended GE THQLSURGE protector was once sold in
Lowes. It was undersized. Yes it could make the 'less than
10 foot' connection to earth. But it was undersized.
Multiple GE THQLSURGE products would increase the joules. But
GE now sells a properly sized 'whole house' protector in
Lowes. Other minimally acceptable 'whole house' protectors
are sold in Lowes (Cutler Hammer) and Home Depot
(Intermatic). Other manufactures of effective protector are
Square D, Leviton, Siemens, and Furse. I don't know of any
APC product that qualifies for that list.

But again, the protector is not protection. Choreboy still
does not yet grasp the point. It is not about "plug-in
protectors are worthless". That was not the point.
Protection is about earthing. More importantly "the quality
of and connection to a single point earth ground".

Choreboy suffered damage even with a 'whole house'
protector. That means he should begin by asking questions
about his earthing system. To talk about protectors as
protection means one does not grasp the concept. To believe a
vaporized protector was effective is only wild speculation.
Single point earth ground. The one absolutely necessary
component. The component that defines protection. Any post
about what protector 'is and is not' effective means the
poster still does not understand the concept. Choreboy's
first question should have been, "Why did my earthing system
fail?"

Again, the three zones do not define what protectors will be
effective. Those zones only define electrically what
transients can be expected. Zones define what is required so
that a protector will not harm humans. To provide protection
in those zones requires something not defined by those zones -
earthing. Something that some in this discussion have not yet
asked about. Why? Still some here confuse a protector with
protection. Without questions about a unique type of
grounding: earthing, then concepts of transient protection are
not yet understood. Protection is only as effective as the
earth ground.

AlanBown wrote:
SOARS book on grounding has some easy text. Try your library.
IEEE 519 (I think) says for surge protection you need to do 2 of
the 3 zones. One zone is the utility so that is out. Next is the
service, next is point of use. So as a user you can protect the
service and point of use.

I just installed a GE made surge arrestor for my GE service. Just
plugs in to the buss and acts like a 2 pole breaker with a green
light.
http://www.geindustrial.com/cwc/prod...g&lan g=en_US
incase your interested, other manufactures make them for their
panels as well.

I also have point of use protection. Most of the ones made today have
protection levels of around 330v. Remember Metal Oxide Varsities are
UL tested ONCE. Not twice. I replace all of my point of use stuff
every 2 years just before the Monsoons.

If your really into it test your grounding at your service. You will
need to beg or borrow special equipment for this. Check out
http://www.groundtesterstore.com/clamp/aemc3731.php
I have used one of these many times. Especially when driving grounds
for fall of potential is out of the question. Other companies make
them as well.

Let's return to Rudy's post. The protector was so grossly
undersized as to abandon an adjacent computer to the
transient. Fortunately the computer had better internal
protection than the grossly undersized power strip. However
Rudy fell into thinking exactly what grossly undersized
protector manufacturers hope he will assume. He assumes a
damaged protector was providing protection. In reality, the
protector that remains functional after the surge is effective
protection. Effective protection means one never even knew
the transient existed.

So are you saying that this "protector" isn't capable of protecting my
computer or TV now ?
It doesn't say how many joules its rated for, just the following : LN 330V
LG 330V NG 330V
Does this go for the millions of surge protectors that nearly every home in
North America is using to protect their home electronics ?

As far as grounding goes, my former home (also in the Tucson monsoon area)
was grounded by a ~ 1/8" copper ground wire connected thru my service box to
the rebar in the foundation. There was another one from the Satellite dish,
to the bottom plate J bolts to the rebar again

R

"LN 330V LG 330V NG 330V" simply says that up to 330 volt
transients of any type can directly confront the appliance and
will be ignored by the protector. Just another reason why
appliances must have internal protection. It does not say
which type of transients above 330 volts will be seen.

Protectors (if I remember correctly) must list these
threshold or let-through voltages AND must also list their
joules to obtain a UL approval. Grossly undersized plug-in
protectors often hope you will overlook the joules rating.
Joules determine a protector's life expectancy. A protector
that fails on the first transient is grossly undersized -
ineffective.

Described in that Tucson home is what should be installed in
all new buildings. Ufer grounding is one of the most
effective earthing methods. A 10 foot earth ground rod is
sufficient for human safety. But for transistor safety, a
better earth ground means superior transistor safety. An Ufer
ground costs so little and does so much. But it means the
protection system (earthing) must be planned before footing
are poured. Better protection that costs so little starts
with the very first construction activity - when footing for
the foundation are constructed. Unfortunately, we still
build new homes as if the transistor did not exist.

Rudy wrote:
So are you saying that this "protector" isn't capable of protecting
my computer or TV now ? It doesn't say how many joules its rated
for, just the following : LN 330V LG 330V NG 330V Does this
go for the millions of surge protectors that nearly every home in
North America is using to protect their home electronics ?

As far as grounding goes, my former home (also in the Tucson
monsoon area) was grounded by a ~ 1/8" copper ground wire
connected thru my service box to the rebar in the foundation.
There was another one from the Satellite dish, to the bottom
plate J bolts to the rebar again

R

w_tom wrote:

Choreboy still does not appreciate that my knowledge comes
from well beyond suffering damage. Suffering damage teaches
little. Notice how theory completely changes Choreboy's
conclusions - the computer protected itself.

I built protectors. Saw some fail spectacularly. Other
worked phenomenally when other unprotected appliances suffered
damage. Even replaces electronic components on damages
equipment to learn why damage happens - ie followed the
circuit path of surges. Experience is useless without the
associate theory.

The astronomers who first said earth revolved around the sun suffered
because their observations contradicted theory. The guy who found that
medal objects had buoyancy also suffered for contradicting theory.


Computers have internal protection. A transient too small
to overwhelm computer protection instead easily destroyed a
grossly undersized protector. Yes, undersized protector. How
many joules in that protector? Why is that plug-in protector
so grossly undersized? Rudy demonstrates why. He then
assumes an ineffective and burned protector did something.
Reality - that computer protected itself. A tiny transient
destroyed the grossly undersized plug-in protector.

Is the protection built into a computer undersized?


No wonder those plug-in manufacturers avoid all
discussion about earthing.

Zero Surge used to discuss it on their website.


Does zone of service suggest where a protector will be
effective? No. Those zones only define the electrical
characteristics of a transient. Those zones define where a
protector can be used safely - for human safety.

No, the grounding conductor in your wiring could pick up a surge at
various points in a building, especially in a thunderstorm. A plug-in
protector will keep it from killing your computer.

BTW, the utility already has installed protection on the
utility wires. You should inspect this protection - the
primary protection:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

It's no protection for computers. If lightning hits in your area, the
power company's grounding rods will pick up the surge and bring it right
to your house.

How does a 'point of use' protector provide protection?
When it makes a 'less than 10 foot' connection to earth
ground. If earthing is not provided, then the protector must
be moved to where earth ground exists: the service entrance.
Also called 'whole house' protector.

Earth ground is for human protection, in case you stand in a puddle or
touch a metal pipe. All that matters to electronic gear is whether it's
connected to conductors with large voltage differences.


But again, the protector is not protection. Choreboy still
does not yet grasp the point. It is not about "plug-in
protectors are worthless". That was not the point.
Protection is about earthing. More importantly "the quality
of and connection to a single point earth ground".

Earthing once cost me a computer. A lightning surge came in the power
company's grounded conductor, through the whole-house protector to the
120 line, from that line through the computer to modem to the phone
line, from there through the telco entrance lightning protector to the
telco entrance earth ground.

I discovered the problem and bonded the grounds before the next strike.
Zero Surge says a protector won't protect your equipment if the earth
grounds aren't bonded.

Choreboy suffered damage even with a 'whole house'
protector. That means he should begin by asking questions
about his earthing system.

The only electrical path to my stereo and TV was from the hot wire to
the neutral. There was no ground wire. The antenna was rabbit ears.

To talk about protectors as
protection means one does not grasp the concept. To believe a
vaporized protector was effective is only wild speculation.
Single point earth ground. The one absolutely necessary
component. The component that defines protection.

If there is any other path by which a ground surge can affect you, a
single-point earth ground is a hazard to people and equipment. I have
two points here. I needed four points at the farm to stop damage. A
lineman I know needed three points at his house.

Zerosurge avoids a discusson about earthing. Typically
destructive transients would go right around the Zerosurge
protector using the ground wire. Better to avoid discussion
even of that safety ground wire. Zerosurge sells series mode
protectors. By themselves, series mode protectors are
ineffective. Manufacturer hopes a 'dam' will stop, block, or
absorb the flood (destructive transient).

However Zerosurge protectors can be effective if
supplementing a protection system. If used in conjuction with
a properly earthed 'whole house' protection system, then the
Zerosurge protector acts like a 'dike'. Major difference
between a dam and a dike. A dam never stops, blocks, or
absorbs the destructive flood. But dikes help divert the
destructive flood downstream. This means earthing
(downstream) is essential for series mode protectors to be
effective.

Appliances already contains a dike. Internal protection
that can be overwhelmed if the primary and secondary
protection systems are not installed. What is the most
critical component of primary and secondary protection
systems? Earth ground. But Zerosurge avoids that discussion.

The protection built into appliances is sufficient when part
of a protection 'system'. Internal protection alone is
insufficient without the primary and secondary protection
'systems'. Internal protection can be overwhelmed by
trasnsients that occur typically once every eight years. From
trivial transents created by refirgerators, dishwasher, and
furnace (also called noise), the appliance protection is more
than sufficient.

What is this transient picked up by a building's grounding
system especially during thunderstorms? If that transient
was so destructive, then nearby lightning would destroy
electronics literally tuned to the destructive frequencies of
lightning - AM radios. How many AM radios inside cars are
damaged after every thunderstorm.

Why is that damage number virtualy zero? Because those
mythical surges created by nearby lightning strikes are
promoted only on myth - without numbers. Any transient
created by nearby lightning on the ground wire is made
irrelevant by protection inside the appliance.

However, plug-in (point of use) protector do create other
internal transients. Induced transients are created when a
plug-in protector tries to earth a transient on the safety
ground wires. Safety ground wires are bundled with all other
wires. Any transient being earthed by a plug-in protector now
induces transients on all other wires. IEEE papers discuss
this problem. Earthing a transient on wires bundled with
other wires only complicates transient solution. Just another
reason why plug-in protector are ineffective.

Effective 'whole house' protectors earth a transient on
wires separated from other wires. But again, notice that
Choreboy does not ask about earthing. How a 'whole house'
protector is earthed determined protection. Described are
induced transients that can be created when the electrician
does not properly install a 'whole house' protector or when
using plug-in protectors.

A protector is only as effective as its "connection to and
quality of" earth ground. Something that Zerosurge avoids
discussing to sell their product. It's called lying by
telling half truths - or propaganda.

Choreboy demonstrates another myth:
.. the power company's grounding rods will pick up the surge
and bring it right to your house.
An example of 'lying by telling half truths'. A problem
eliminated when using the single point earth ground. Again,
the primary protection system is demonstrated by these
pictures:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html
If the primary protection system is compromised, then extra
stress is placed on a secondary protection system. And if no
secondary protection system exists, then a plug-in protector
may provide the transient with potentially destructive paths
through your household appliances.

Again Choreboy muddies the water:
Earth ground is for human protection, ...
Yes. And it is also required for transistor safety - as was
posted both previously and repeatedly. Bottom line: the
plug-in protector provides no effective protection and can
even contribute to damage of the adjacent appliance. I have
even traced such damage through a network of powered off
computers. But then I learned by doing the work - fixing
things at the electronic component level and then kept asking
why. Choreboy instead claims:
A plug-in protector will keep it from killing your computer.
This posted without a single fact or number to prove his
point. He would recommend plug-in protectors that are even
undersized- too few joules? Unfortunately, he recites half
truths and myths promoted by those plug-in protector
advocates. He even denies a basic concept. What does
lightning seek? Earth ground. What did Franklin even use to
protect church steeples? Earthing. Instead Choreboy states:
Earthing once cost me a computer.
Then he contradicts himself:
Zero Surge says a protector won't protect your equipment
if the earth grounds aren't bonded.
Which is it? Earthing causes damage or earthing is necessary?

Choreboy later admits to defective earthing. Meanwhile,
earthing for electronics protection was well proven even
before WWII. How can Choreboy deny this? He does not even
know what inside each appliance was damaged. A dead body is
best evidence. But one mustfirst learn the underlying
theories. Unfortunately, Choreboy now recites propaganda from
plug-in protectors advocats - much like those religous leaders
who insisted the sun goes around the earth. One who learns
also performs an autopsy. Those who worship myths from
plug-in protector advocates, instead just somehow know - facts
be damned.

Choreboy had damage due to defects in his earthing system
which he eventually admits to. But he still does not ask a
single question as to how to fix his earthing system. He just
knows a grossly overpriced and undersized plug-in protector is
effective. This even though numbers previously demonstrated
why his stereo and TV could be damaged; and internal
protection inside the computer protected the computer.

Choreboy eventually admits why his protection system did not
work:
I have two points here. I needed four points at the farm
to stop damage.
Ironic. Previously he posted that earthing causes damage?
Now he admits a violation of single point earthing
principles. Instead we consult those who do the science. A
figure from the National Institute of Standards and Technology
demsonstrates how multiple grounds cause damage to a fax:
http://www.epri-peac.com/tutorials/sol01tut.html
But again, I am discussing what provides effective
protection. Earthing. What Choreboy avoids learning about
and yet assumes is not effective? Earthing.

Choreboy suffered damage to TV and stereo. How does an AC
line surge enter these appliances? Incoming on AC electric
hot wire. Outgoing paths include the properly earthed
antenna, or via speaker or antenna wires draped on floor, on
baseboard heat, against chimeny, on lioleum tile, etc. Other
earthing paths could also exist. Two wire appliances are
damaged when those transients are not properly earthed (which
BTW has nothing to do with a safety ground wire on appliance
power cord). A surge may find destructive paths through and
damage transistorized appliances because, as Choreboy now
admits, his earthing system is defective.

For those who want real world protection at about $1 per
protected appliance: the protector is only as effective as
its earth ground.

Unfortunately, Choreboy's knowledge comes from sources of
propaganda such as Zerosurge and from myths promoted by
plug-in protector advocates. He even now denies the critical
need for single point ground, as even the NIST says is
necessary. His defective earthing suggests why he suffered
unnecessary appliance damage. Damage from a transient so
trivial as to not even overwhelm protection inside a computer.

Choreboy wrote:
The astronomers who first said earth revolved around the sun suffered
because their observations contradicted theory. The guy who found that
medal objects had buoyancy also suffered for contradicting theory.
...

Is the protection built into a computer undersized?

No wonder those plug-in manufacturers avoid all
discussion about earthing.

Zero Surge used to discuss it on their website.
...

No, the grounding conductor in your wiring could pick up a surge at
various points in a building, especially in a thunderstorm.

BTW, the utility already has installed protection on the
utility wires. You should inspect this protection - the
primary protection:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

It's no protection for computers. If lightning hits in your area, the
power company's grounding rods will pick up the surge and bring it right
to your house.
...

All that matters to electronic gear is whether it's
connected to conductors with large voltage differences.
...

Earthing once cost me a computer. A lightning surge came in the power
company's grounded conductor, through the whole-house protector to the
120 line, from that line through the computer to modem to the phone
line, from there through the telco entrance lightning protector to the
telco entrance earth ground.

I discovered the problem and bonded the grounds before the next strike.
Zero Surge says a protector won't protect your equipment if the earth
grounds aren't bonded.

Choreboy suffered damage even with a 'whole house'
protector. That means he should begin by asking questions
about his earthing system.

The only electrical path to my stereo and TV was from the hot wire to
the neutral. There was no ground wire. The antenna was rabbit ears.
...

If there is any other path by which a ground surge can affect you, a
single-point earth ground is a hazard to people and equipment. I have
two points here. I needed four points at the farm to stop damage. A
lineman I know needed three points at his house.

w_tom wrote:

Appliances already contains a dike.

A $50 microwave contains a dike but a $100 protector doesn't?

Internal protection
that can be overwhelmed if the primary and secondary
protection systems are not installed. What is the most
critical component of primary and secondary protection
systems? Earth ground. But Zerosurge avoids that discussion.

They discussed it for me.


The protection built into appliances is sufficient when part
of a protection 'system'. Internal protection alone is
insufficient without the primary and secondary protection
'systems'.

Mine was insufficient with primary and secondary protection.


What is this transient picked up by a building's grounding
system especially during thunderstorms? If that transient
was so destructive, then nearby lightning would destroy
electronics literally tuned to the destructive frequencies of
lightning - AM radios. How many AM radios inside cars are
damaged after every thunderstorm.

What frequencies are most destructive? A car radio doesn't pick up a
surge from a building's grounding system because the car isn't grounded
to it (or to earth).


Why is that damage number virtualy zero? Because those
mythical surges created by nearby lightning strikes are
promoted only on myth - without numbers.

Did you ever read where lightning kills a whole herd of cows standing
under a tree? That's the ground surge. That's why in a thunderstorm
you should not stand near a tall tree and not lie down but crouch with
your feet together.



Choreboy demonstrates another myth:
.. the power company's grounding rods will pick up the surge
and bring it right to your house.

The Telco repairman told me their lightning damage usually comes from
surges brought to homes by the power company's ground. Last week a
retired lineman verified that the ground wire will bring in lightning
surges from many miles around.

An example of 'lying by telling half truths'. A problem
eliminated when using the single point earth ground.

To the contrary, the power company recommends a three-point ground. The
lineman had to install one at his house because lightning surges kept
destroying his well pump.


Again Choreboy muddies the water:
Earth ground is for human protection, ...
Yes. And it is also required for transistor safety - as was
posted both previously and repeatedly.

My car has no earth ground. It has sat through many thunderstorms wih
no damage to its electronics. The lack of an earth ground can mean a
static shock for humans.


Instead Choreboy states:
Earthing once cost me a computer.
Then he contradicts himself:
Zero Surge says a protector won't protect your equipment
if the earth grounds aren't bonded.
Which is it? Earthing causes damage or earthing is necessary?

If it hadn't been for those two ground rods (installed by two utilities)
my computer would have been fine. If you are grounded, you need proper bonding.

Choreboy does not even
know what inside each appliance was damaged.

I'm glad you asked. I went through my TV and my stereo to see what
parts had been zapped. The list was so long that I threw the appliances away.


Choreboy had damage due to defects in his earthing system
which he eventually admits to.

The telephone ground had nothing to do with my stereo or TV. The only
thing that killed them was voltage between hot and neutral, which got by
my whole-house protector.

Again look at what goes inside a grossly overpriced plug-in
protector. To repeat it again: Take a $3 (retail) power
strip. Add some $0.10 components. Sell it as a surge
protector under the Monster Cable brand name for upwards of
$100. That's right. Ineffective protectors are undersized to
protect a profit margin; not the transistors.

Many spend massive money on plug-in protectors so grossly
undersized as to fail on the first transient. Failure on a
first transient means ineffective protection. And yet some
consumers actually worship that at $100, it must be good.
Monster Cable also sells cheap wire with connectors color
gold. People also foolishly spend $50 and $100 for speaker
wire only because Monster colored it gold. Then myth
purveyors declare gold Monster Cable will not corrode. Lying
by telling half truths. Amazing how people use price as if it
was science proof.

The $50 microwave has significant protection. Any $0.10
components that would be effective inside that $100 protector
are already inside the $50 microwave. The microwave's
internal protection could be overwhelmed if a 'whole house'
protector - the secondary protection system - is not
installed. Properly installed. The microwave remains at same
or higher risk if plugged into a $100 power strip protector.

Meanwhile, Zerosurge told you nothing useful about grounds.
Their 'executive summary' told you enough so that you think
you know about earthing. But Zerosurge did not even discuss
primary and secondary protection. They said their product
doesn't contaminate ground by dumping transients to ground.
So what does that mean? Nothing. Total nonsense. IOW they
told gobbledygook and you declared that as science fact? They
know how to lie to the right people. Notice that Zerosurge
did not even put one number with those 'application notes'.
No numbers means what? Junk science. They wrote junk
science.

Zerosurge explained all about earthing? You also believed a
lying president when he hyped myths about weapons of mass
destruction. WMDs also demonstrated how lies can be spin into
junk science facts when the want to believe rather than first
learn.

You had a 'whole house' protector. Did you have
protection? What was and how was earth ground installed? You
now admit that the building has two separate grounds.
Therefore not effective protection. Furthermore, you don't
discuss how that 'whole house' protector is earthed. Worse
still, you don't even try to learn about earthing. Instead
that simple paragraph from Zerosurge is everything one need
know about earthing? Somehow you don't need know anything
about earthing. The ground rods caused your damage.

You post as if surge protectors stop, block, or absorb
surges. A surge enter on one wire, damage the stereo, then
stops? Even second grade science students are taught that
electricity does not work that way. You had damage to a
grossly undersized plug-in protector. That says you have no
effective secondary protection and may not have primary
protection either. But then you actually tried to claim that
earthing does not provide the protection. As long as you
remain in denial, then of course you have no effective
protection. Such damage is directly traceable to human
failure. As long as you know because Zerosurge told you so
much, then transient damage is acceptable.

You had a 'whole house' protector. But (as was posted
repeatedly and not answered): was it even earthed? The
protector is not protection. Earthing is the protection.
Earthing - the thing repeatedly ignored. Earthing for
protection was well proven even before WWII. You think some
plug-in protector will stop what miles of sky could not? What
kind of nonsense is that? Well you had electronics damage.
IOW you had damage and still deny what is effective
protection. A problem traceable when a human promotes sales
brochure science.

Cows under a tree are the perfect example of multiple earth
grounds. Your building that has multiple earth grounds has
same problem. Four legged animals are more easily killed by
lightning that strikes a tree because the cow now becomes part
of the electrical circuit. Cow does not make a single point
ground. Cow then becomes the electrical path of a circuit
that includes the struck tree.

Did EM field from a nearby strike kill those cows? Yes when
myth is taken as science fact. Those cows are cited only
because some actually believe (to the embarrassment of the
nation's education system) that a nearby lightning strike
induced death in cows. In reality the nearby lightning strike
passed right through those cows. Just another example of how
multiple earth grounds also cause appliance damage.

Same concept demonstrated in a picture from the NIST. Fax
machine also damaged because the building (like the cow) had
multiple and separate connections to ground.

Yes a ground wire may carry transients from many miles
around. So will buried pipe lines. So will utility wires
that terminate in front of your house. All the more reason
why you must have a single point earth ground.

For human life protection, an earth ground is necessary. No
way around that. So that lightning passing through the ground
does not enter the house, pass through household appliances,
then leave via another ground, instead, you must have a single
point earth ground. But again, same reason why a cow under
the tree is harmed by lighting was demonstrated by that NIST
picture at:
http://www.epri-peac.com/tutorials/sol01tut.html

Where did Zerosurge discuss any of this. Obviously they did
not. Too complex? Not helpful for selling a product? You
tell me. But Zerosurge also demonstrates how ineffective and
undersized your plug-in protector was. Remember that plug-in
protector you said protected a computer. Zerosurge
demonstrates that even MOVs all can be removed, and the
protector light says the protector is fine:
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html

That protector did not protect the computer. The computer
protected itself from a tiny transient. A transient too small
to harm the computer could easily destroy the grossly
undersized protector. Even Zerosurge pictures demonstrated
ineffective plug-in protectors.

Either don't trust Zerosurge or maybe that APC protector is
not what you think it was. So which is lying? Zerosurge or
APC? You cannot have it both ways. Either the APC is not
effective, or what you promoted from Zerosurge is not really
true.

Those two ground rods for AC electric are absolutely
essential to surge protection AND even so that a house does
not explode. The utility does not install earthing rods.
That was your responsibility as even required by the National
Electrical Code. Those earth ground rod did not cause
transistor damage as long as they are part of the single point
earth ground. But this means you must learn about earth
ground AND stop worshiping myths from those plug-in protector
manufacturers.

Somehow you just know those ground rod caused damage? Did
you also believe a lying president when he invented WMDs?
One must believe blindly to conclude that ground rods caused
damage. Absolutely no fact exist to make that wild
assumption. Furthermore, those myths have no numbers. But
somehow you just know anyway - just like those who believed a
lying president when the numbers were saying something
completely different.

Somehow you know those ground rods cause your damage?
Fine. First define the complete electrical circuit. To
conclude ground rods caused the damage, you cannot just say "a
lineman said this". That is hearsay. Define the electric
circuit created by those ground rods. You cannot. Again, you
have made assumptions rather than first learn facts.

Problems with your reasoning demonstrated FOUR different
ways.

Assumed: a voltage between AC hot and neutral caused that
stereo damage. If true, the list of damage components would
be quite short and only where the power cord connects. Stereo
would have been easily repaired. But to have a long list of
damage, then a destructive electrical circuit had to pass
across the stereo. Destructive transients take the long path
when seeking earth ground. Typically destructive transients
enter on 'either or both' hot and neutral wire. Transients
leave on some other conductive path. If a transient entered
on hot and left on neutral, then the list of damaged
components would be quite short - and easily repaired. You had
extensive damage which mean it was a transient those plug-in
protectors don't even claim to protect from. 'Too many
damaged' components because transient entered on AC mains and
exited elsewhere.

Let's assume a transient entered on hot and left on neutral.
The typically destructive transients don't enter that way.
But let's assume a transient comes down the hot wire seeking
what? Earth ground. What does a plug-in protector do for
this type of transient? Shunts the transient to neutral
wire. Now the transient is seeking earth ground,
destructively through appliance, from both hot and neutral
wire. The adjacent plug-in protector has provided more
destructive paths to earth via the adjacent appliance.
Welcome to the world of ineffective plug-in protectors - that
don't even claim to protect from this - the typically
destructive transient. Plug-in protectors can even provide
destructive paths through an adjacent appliance.

Third example. Again, let's assume the transient entered
via hot wire and left via neutral wire. Then those earth
ground rods (that you blamed) were not involved in stereo
damage. Your assumptions are wild speculation AND they
contradict each other. Which is it? Damage enters on hot
wire and left on neutral wire? Or the utility and code
required earth ground rods put a surge into your stereo - via
a wire those ground rods don't even connect to. Those
earthing rods did not contribute to any damage if they had
been part of single point earthing. But then you don't even
demonstrate a circuit path for your claims.

And fourth is the little problem of where the electricity
went to after it left stereo on neutral wire. Where on the
neutral wire is the rest of a complete electrical circuit?
Just another problem with "the transient entered on hot wire
and left on neutral wire" theory. It has no science fact to
support what is speculation hyped into fact - just like
weapons of mass destruction. Where did current leaving the
damage stereo then go via neutral wire?

A building wire picks up radio frequencies because it is
grounded? Do you invent these things or do you have a source?
A car radio does not receive those frequencies because it is
not grounded? So the car radio does not play music and review
news updates - because it is not grounded. Which is it?
Either they both receive those frequencies or neither does.
How does household wiring create thousands of volts from the
same radio frequency source that does not even create a
destructive 10 volts inside the car radio? You listen to too
much speculation hyped into "this must be true" fact. Exactly
how a president could lie about WMDs. Most damning, where are
your numbers? They don't exist, do they.

That plug-in protector did nothing but self destruct so that
you would recommend it to the world. Its called a scam.
Somehow you have twisted a grossly undersized and overprice
protector into effective protection. You had a 'whole house'
protector. Therefore you assumed it was protection. Again,
and again, you repeatedly ignore - outrightly avoid, learning
about THE most essential component in a protection system:
earth ground. Your own speculations contradict themselves.
Why? You are promoting myths. And you deny what is effective
protection.

Choreboy wrote:
w_tom wrote:
Appliances already contains a dike.

A $50 microwave contains a dike but a $100 protector doesn't?

What is the most critical component of primary and secondary
protection systems? Earth ground. But Zerosurge avoids that
discussion.

They discussed it for me.

The protection built into appliances is sufficient when part
of a protection 'system'. Internal protection alone is
insufficient without the primary and secondary protection
'systems'.

Mine was insufficient with primary and secondary protection.
...

What frequencies are most destructive? A car radio doesn't pick up a
surge from a building's grounding system because the car isn't grounded
to it (or to earth).
...

Did you ever read where lightning kills a whole herd of cows standing
under a tree? That's the ground surge. That's why in a thunderstorm
you should not stand near a tall tree and not lie down but crouch with
your feet together.
...

The Telco repairman told me their lightning damage usually comes from
surges brought to homes by the power company's ground. Last week a
retired lineman verified that the ground wire will bring in lightning
surges from many miles around.
...

To the contrary, the power company recommends a three-point ground. The
lineman had to install one at his house because lightning surges kept
destroying his well pump.
...

My car has no earth ground. It has sat through many thunderstorms wih
no damage to its electronics. The lack of an earth ground can mean a
static shock for humans.
..

If it hadn't been for those two ground rods (installed by two
utilities) my computer would have been fine. If you are grounded,
you need proper bonding.
...

I'm glad you asked. I went through my TV and my stereo to see
what parts had been zapped. The list was so long that I threw
the appliances away.
...

The telephone ground had nothing to do with my stereo or TV. The
only thing that killed them was voltage between hot and neutral,
which got by my whole-house protector.

w_tom wrote:



You had a 'whole house' protector. Did you have
protection? What was and how was earth ground installed? You
now admit that the building has two separate grounds.
Therefore not effective protection. Furthermore, you don't
discuss how that 'whole house' protector is earthed. Worse
still, you don't even try to learn about earthing. Instead
that simple paragraph from Zerosurge is everything one need
know about earthing? Somehow you don't need know anything
about earthing. The ground rods caused your damage.

In troubleshooting the computer damage years ago I found the phone and
power grounds unbonded. I bonded them because I'd known for 20 years
that bonding was required. I thought the lack of bonding was rare until
I talked to a telco man five years later. Still later, I read at the
Zero Surge site that the lack of bonding is a common and serious
problem. BTW, did you know no computer plugged into a Zero Surge
protector has ever been damaged?


You had damage to a
grossly undersized plug-in protector.

No damage to a protector. There was no plug-in protector for my TV and
stereo. I had foolishly trusted my whole-house protector.

That says you have no
effective secondary protection and may not have primary
protection either.

Don't you think there would be a lot more damage in this neighborhood if
the power company's lines weren't grounded?


You had a 'whole house' protector. But (as was posted
repeatedly and not answered): was it even earthed?

I wonder why I didn't see your question before. It's not buried in the
ground, but of course it's connected to the same neutral bar as the
power company's ground wire, eight feet from my ground rod.

Cows under a tree are the perfect example of multiple earth
grounds. Your building that has multiple earth grounds has
same problem. Four legged animals are more easily killed by
lightning that strikes a tree because the cow now becomes part
of the electrical circuit. Cow does not make a single point
ground. Cow then becomes the electrical path of a circuit
that includes the struck tree.



Yes a ground wire may carry transients from many miles
around. So will buried pipe lines. So will utility wires
that terminate in front of your house. All the more reason
why you must have a single point earth ground.

Most buildings are like cows in that multiple grounds are inevitable:
water supply, water drain, furnace, construction materials, power tool
lying on the ground. Your single-point theory has led to thousands of
deaths when people touched objects like faucets and phones during
thunderstorms. A building needs bonding. Sometimes it needs multiple
ground rods.


Assumed: a voltage between AC hot and neutral caused that
stereo damage. If true, the list of damage components would
be quite short and only where the power cord connects. Stereo
would have been easily repaired. But to have a long list of
damage, then a destructive electrical circuit had to pass
across the stereo. Destructive transients take the long path
when seeking earth ground. Typically destructive transients
enter on 'either or both' hot and neutral wire. Transients
leave on some other conductive path. If a transient entered
on hot and left on neutral, then the list of damaged
components would be quite short - and easily repaired. You had
extensive damage which mean it was a transient those plug-in
protectors don't even claim to protect from. 'Too many
damaged' components because transient entered on AC mains and
exited elsewhere.

Does electricity always choose the longest path to ground? Except the
rabbit ears, the only conductors within several feet of the TV were the
hot wire and the neutral. So now you're telling me the surge came in
through the plug and exited through a lightning bolt? I was watching
the TV. I saw no spark at all.


Third example. Again, let's assume the transient entered
via hot wire and left via neutral wire. Then those earth
ground rods (that you blamed) were not involved in stereo
damage. Your assumptions are wild speculation AND they
contradict each other. Which is it? Damage enters on hot
wire and left on neutral wire? Or the utility and code
required earth ground rods put a surge into your stereo - via
a wire those ground rods don't even connect to. Those
earthing rods did not contribute to any damage if they had
been part of single point earthing. But then you don't even
demonstrate a circuit path for your claims.

I'm the one who has been saying earthing had nothing to do with that
incident. Unbonded grounds had zapped a computer and modem years earlier.

And fourth is the little problem of where the electricity
went to after it left stereo on neutral wire. Where on the
neutral wire is the rest of a complete electrical circuit?
Just another problem with "the transient entered on hot wire
and left on neutral wire" theory. It has no science fact to
support what is speculation hyped into fact - just like
weapons of mass destruction. Where did current leaving the
damage stereo then go via neutral wire?

Back to ground through the breaker box. That's where current flows
through all my neutral wires. Aren't your neutrals hooked up?

Ironic that Choreboy would mention Zerosurge. Zerosurge
demonstrates with pictures how ineffective plug-in protectors
can be:
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html

They even remove MOVs from a plug-in protector; remove the
protection components. Lights still say the protector is
working just fine. What kind of protection is that?
Ineffective - and a protector that also is not properly
earthed. Even lights that are suppose to report a good
plug-in protector are 'lying by telling half truths'.

In the meantime, Zerosurge forgets to mention that a
transient bypasses the series mode protector via safety ground
wire. Which is better - series mode protectors or plug-in
shunt mode protectors? At least the $100 Zerosurge product
does supplement an effectively earthed 'whole house' protector
(and provides other advantages). The traditional $15 or $50
power strip (or UPS) protector does nothing effective for one
simple and obvious reason - all but no earth ground. No earth
ground means plug-in protectors are ineffective as well as
overpriced and undersized. And then we have those lights.
Zerosurge pictures even demonstrate the problems.

Choreboy wrote:
w_tom wrote:
No wonder those plug-in manufacturers avoid all discussion
about earthing.

Zero Surge used to discuss it on their website.

AlanBown wrote:

SOARS book on grounding has some easy text. Try your library.
IEEE 519 (I think) says for surge protection you need to do 2 of the 3
zones. One zone is the utility so that is out. Next is the service, next is
point of use. So as a user you can protect the service and point of use.

I just installed a GE made surge arrestor for my GE service. Just plugs in
to the buss and acts like a 2 pole breaker with a green light.
http://www.geindustrial.com/cwc/prod...g&lan g=en_US
incase your interested, other manufactures make them for their panels as
well.

That indicator light would be helpful.


I also have point of use protection. Most of the ones made today have
protection levels of around 330v. Remember Metal Oxide Varsities are UL
tested ONCE. Not twice. I replace all of my point of use stuff every 2 years
just before the Monsoons.

If your really into it test your grounding at your service. You will need to
beg or borrow special equipment for this. Check out
http://www.groundtesterstore.com/clamp/aemc3731.php

That's expensive! If it merely clamps around a conductor, I wonder how
it tells grounding resistance. I know it's hard to measure with an
ordinary ohmmeter. When I did it years ago, I think I checked the flow
from a 9-V battery between two ground rods.

I have used one of these many times. Especially when driving grounds for
fall of potential is out of the question.

I don't understand that sentence.