"John R Weiss" wrote
"Caliban" wrote...
When purchasing a house (assume it's a cash payment, with no mortgage):

Is who pays for the title search usually a negotiable point in the
contract?

"Everything is negotiable." However, if you want to expedite the process,
it is
wise to follow the local customs regarding allocation of major closing
costs.

Since the title search benefits YOU most of all, it is reasonable that you
pay
for it.

This makes sense.

Thank you for the other suggestions.

To anyone:
Let me add that I am looking at three houses. The oldest is 15 years old.
The youngest is 7 years old, and the original owner is selling it. (I have
paperwork from the county tax office confirming this.) All are in a large
neighborhood development less than 20 years old. I see on the Internet that
title companies advertise examining the title for the last, say, 40 or 60
years. I am not convinced (yet) that whoever does the title search has much
to do at all for either of these three homes, especially for the 7-year-old,
original owner house. Are there generally only fixed prices for title
searches? Or would it be worthwhile to shop around for someone who takes
into account the very little legal research needed (I think; could be
missing something) necessary, especially if I make an offer on the
7-year-old, original owner house?

It doesn't matter if the house is only 7 years old. The Insurance Department
of the state you live in dictates how many years back the title insurance
company has to search in order to provide title insurance. Here in
Pennsylvania, we have to search back 60 years in order to get title
insurance. Title insurance is a must when buying real estate. Don't be
caught without it. The title search is one thing of the puzzle. Let's say
the current owners of the property come to closing sign the Deed and all the
closing papers. The attorney or title company gives the sellers their check
and the buyers move into their house. About, a year later the buyers get a
letter from an attorney representing the wife, who claims her husband
brought his girlfriend to closing and they purportrated a fraud. Not what?
If you have title insurance you file a claim, and the title insurance
company pays the wife off, the title insurance company goes after the
husband and his girlfriend prosecutes them if they can be found. However, if
you don't have title insurance your **** out of luck. You either pay the
wife off, or you loose the house. Caveat Emptor-Let the buyer beware.
"Caliban" wrote in message
arthlink.net...
"John R Weiss" wrote
"Caliban" wrote...
When purchasing a house (assume it's a cash payment, with no
mortgage):

Is who pays for the title search usually a negotiable point in the
contract?

"Everything is negotiable." However, if you want to expedite the
process,
it is
wise to follow the local customs regarding allocation of major closing
costs.

Since the title search benefits YOU most of all, it is reasonable that
you
pay
for it.

This makes sense.

Thank you for the other suggestions.

To anyone:
Let me add that I am looking at three houses. The oldest is 15 years old.
The youngest is 7 years old, and the original owner is selling it. (I have
paperwork from the county tax office confirming this.) All are in a large
neighborhood development less than 20 years old. I see on the Internet
that
title companies advertise examining the title for the last, say, 40 or 60
years. I am not convinced (yet) that whoever does the title search has
much
to do at all for either of these three homes, especially for the
7-year-old,
original owner house. Are there generally only fixed prices for title
searches? Or would it be worthwhile to shop around for someone who takes
into account the very little legal research needed (I think; could be
missing something) necessary, especially if I make an offer on the
7-year-old, original owner house?

"Caliban" wrote in
arthlink.net:

When purchasing a house (assume it's a cash payment, with no
mortgage):

Is who pays for the title search usually a negotiable point in the
contract?

In my area (Illinois), the buyer pays for title insurance.

What does a title company do for the money paid to it? Would a real
estate attorney paid to do a title search do the same thing?

Who really knows? :-) They supposedly research the archives for title
transfers and related legal documents, and verify that there are no
unaccounted for encumberances on the title, outstanding lawsuits,
unsatisfied leins, etc. Anything that prevents the seller from granting a
clear title to the buyer.


How much does title insurance cost?

Depends on the area and the house. I think it's based on the selling
price in most areas.


Are there ever fairly good reasons not to purchase title insurance?
(Sarcasm will be laughed at and then ignored. :-) )

As far as I know, a mortgage lender will always require a title insurance
policy in their name. If you, as a buyer, want to pay for an additional
policy that protects you, that's an option. In my area, few people seem
to purchase a buyer's policy. I think that records are kept well enough
these days that title problems are relatively rare, but they certainly do
occur. A title policy in your name would, in theory, cover your actual
expenses/losses should a claim be made against your title. However, if it
turns out that you don't have a clear title to your house, it doesn't
guarantee that you won't lose it, just that your losses can be recouped.
It's still a big, ugly, expensive mess, however.


What are some steps to take to prevent a title company from ripping a
buyer off with extraneous, inappropriate fees? (I already plan to ask
for a complete breakdown of the title fees.) For what extraneous,
inappropriate fees should I keep my eyes peeled?

In my experience, you pick a title company, they give you a number, you
write a check, and things move forward. Title searches and insurance
usually only run a few hundred dollars, and, as far as a house purchase
goes, don't really make much of a dent in the bottom line cost of the
deal.

"Caliban" wrote...
Let me add that I am looking at three houses. The oldest is 15 years old.
The youngest is 7 years old, and the original owner is selling it. (I have
paperwork from the county tax office confirming this.) All are in a large
neighborhood development less than 20 years old. I see on the Internet that
title companies advertise examining the title for the last, say, 40 or 60
years. I am not convinced (yet) that whoever does the title search has much
to do at all for either of these three homes, especially for the 7-year-old,
original owner house.

What was the disposition of the land prior to the time it was subdivided and
developed?

Yes, title searches and insurance are, in part, a "scam" to perpetuate a
business. What business does not have an analogous "scam"?

You can either go with the program or accept the risks of bucking it.

Caliban wrote in message
arthlink.net...
To anyone:
Let me add that I am looking at three houses. The oldest is 15 years old.
The youngest is 7 years old, and the original owner is selling it. (I have
paperwork from the county tax office confirming this.) All are in a large
neighborhood development less than 20 years old. I see on the Internet
that
title companies advertise examining the title for the last, say, 40 or 60
years. I am not convinced (yet) that whoever does the title search has
much
to do at all for either of these three homes, especially for the
7-year-old,
original owner house. Are there generally only fixed prices for title
searches? Or would it be worthwhile to shop around for someone who takes
into account the very little legal research needed (I think; could be
missing something) necessary, especially if I make an offer on the
7-year-old, original owner house?

The age of the house has nothing to do with it... how old is the land?

The point is, the property has a chain of title. Construction merely adds to
the potential for clouds on title like liens.

Not buying title insurance is the most foolish thing you can do in a real
estate transaction.

Something else to consider is resale. Title companies don't like dealing
with properties that have a lapse in insurance.

"John R Weiss" wrote in message
news:AYHVa.15079$uu5.2265@sccrnsc04...
"Caliban" wrote...
Let me add that I am looking at three houses. The oldest is 15 years
old.
The youngest is 7 years old, and the original owner is selling it. (I
have
paperwork from the county tax office confirming this.) All are in a
large
neighborhood development less than 20 years old. I see on the Internet
that
title companies advertise examining the title for the last, say, 40 or
60
years. I am not convinced (yet) that whoever does the title search has
much
to do at all for either of these three homes, especially for the
7-year-old,
original owner house.

What was the disposition of the land prior to the time it was subdivided
and
developed?

Yes, I agree that's still a concern. I'm inclined to believe that since it's
a huge development, a claim made based on some fact before it was developed
applies to all the homeowners in this huge development, not just me, so we'd
pool our resources.

But of course that means I'm assuming and therefore taking a risk, which may
be imprudent when I can spare a lot of potential pain for a few hundred
dollars.

Yes, title searches and insurance are, in part, a "scam" to perpetuate a
business. What business does not have an analogous "scam"?

You can either go with the program or accept the risks of bucking it.

All true. :-)

Thanks, all for your responses to date. I am thinking about what has been
said.

"JD" wrote
snip interesting comments
Something else to consider is resale. Title companies don't like dealing
with properties that have a lapse in insurance.

Thanks especially for this point.

"John Wilson" wrote
It doesn't matter if the house is only 7 years old. The Insurance
Department
of the state you live in dictates how many years back the title insurance
company has to search in order to provide title insurance. Here in
Pennsylvania, we have to search back 60 years in order to get title
insurance. Title insurance is a must when buying real estate. Don't be
caught without it. The title search is one thing of the puzzle. Let's say
the current owners of the property come to closing sign the Deed and all
the
closing papers. The attorney or title company gives the sellers their
check
and the buyers move into their house. About, a year later the buyers get a
letter from an attorney representing the wife, who claims her husband
brought his girlfriend to closing and they purportrated a fraud. Not what?
If you have title insurance you file a claim, and the title insurance
company pays the wife off, the title insurance company goes after the
husband and his girlfriend prosecutes them if they can be found. However,
if
you don't have title insurance your **** out of luck. You either pay the
wife off, or you loose the house. Caveat Emptor-Let the buyer beware.

Fair enough. And the houses I am looking at do tend to look like those
divorcees inhabit for a short-term...

Good example.

On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 03:09:41 GMT, someone wrote:


... Protect your wallet & your financial future!

Email me at ....

Yes yes, don't let antone else get the better of you. Let HIM do it.


;-)
-v.

On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 22:29:17 -0500, someone wrote:


What does a title company do for the money paid to it?...

This varies very widely by state. In some states, the "title company"
acts as an escrow agent, buyers and sellers might not even use
attorneys, and the parties never sit down face to face in the same
room.

In other states a "title company" only searches titles and issues
title policies through attorneys (only) who are its designated sales
agents.

There are various other combinations of services and duties.

In my state, attorneys are customarily responsible for searching and
certifying title for buyers (even if another person physically does
it). As a result, malpractice insurance for real estate attorneys is
very costly, because though there are few successful claims, they are
potentially huge.

The only claim (which lost) that I had personal knowledge of, was a
buyer who tried to sue years later, in a dispute over what effect an
easement actually had and whether their lawyer had properly disclosed
it to them. (I helped defend the lawyer being sued).

Reading the long list of pitfalls for closing attorneys is one of the
reasons I do not do closings at all (I never did many, just on
request), even though many people think it must just be easy money.
It is when it goes right, but when it doesn't the crap flies, and I
was not doing enough to be confident that it would average out
properly.

-v.

On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 04:37:52 GMT, "John R Weiss"
wrote:

"Caliban" wrote...
Let me add that I am looking at three houses. The oldest is 15 years old.
The youngest is 7 years old, and the original owner is selling it. (I have
paperwork from the county tax office confirming this.) All are in a large
neighborhood development less than 20 years old. I see on the Internet that
title companies advertise examining the title for the last, say, 40 or 60
years. I am not convinced (yet) that whoever does the title search has much
to do at all for either of these three homes, especially for the 7-year-old,
original owner house.

What was the disposition of the land prior to the time it was subdivided and
developed?

The farm we sold a few years ago has an abstract that goes all the way
back to when the first private owner proved up on his homestead.
Between then and when we sold it, it was sold, willed, divided,
reassembled, was held in trust for a minor heir, became a revenent's
(widow's) portion, got added to another piece of land, got divided
again along a new boundary, and a few other things. There was at
least one suit over who was to be executor of a will and how much he
was going to be paid and another that was basically over "mother
always loved me best". Oh, and there were at least two agreements
with the US gov't on land banks and soil conservation (the
conservation agreement was ours; it was connected to getting a grant
to tile the waterways and do some terracing).

This is a lot of action for land that was first acquired around 1850.

The actions seemed to happen either every forty years or every forty
days, in clusters. As it happens, we know descendants of about half
the folks involved in all this, most of them connected with the more
recent events.

Mary

--
Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer

"A MiG at your six is better than no MiG at all."
Anonymous US fighter pilot

Caliban wrote:

When purchasing a house (assume it's a cash payment, with no mortgage):

What does a title company do for the money paid to it? Would a real estate
attorney paid to do a title search do the same thing?

It's possible the attorney could do it better, but it depends on the
quality of the work done by the title company. One of my sisters worked
for a real estate attorney who did a lot of work for supposedly
experienced real estate agents and title companies who screwed up their
paperwork and had to get it fixed.
As a result, everyone is our family has included a consult with a real
estate attorney in our real estate purchases. The cost of an experienced
attorney to check out the paperwork before closing (and if necessary, to
attend closing as well) isn't outrageous and for us was well worth the
additional peace of mind.

Are there ever fairly good reasons not to purchase title insurance? (Sarcasm
will be laughed at and then ignored. :-) )

I didn't bother when I purchased our family home from my mom, since
obviously I was fully aware there were no liens or impediments with the
title since the property had come into the family. But if I'd bought
property from anyone else, I'd've bought title insurance.

What are some steps to take to prevent a title company from ripping a buyer
off with extraneous, inappropriate fees? (I already plan to ask for a
complete breakdown of the title fees.) For what extraneous, inappropriate
fees should I keep my eyes peeled?

Everyone should call the County Records department for the county the
property is located in, and ask the clerks there for a listing of all
the paperwork to legally record the transaction. All the clerks I've
dealt with have been very knowledgeable and helpful. A lot of the
documents can be prepared by yourself with the (free) assistance of the
county clerks, then reviewed by your attorney. Or your attorney can
prepare the paperwork for you, but it'll cost more.

Once you know what is required for the transaction to take place, you
can compare that to the title company's list of fees and have them
explain anything that the county didn't tell you was required. You can
decide what documents, if any, you feel capable of preparing yourself,
and tell the title company you'll prepare those yourself. You can also
compare their overall fee to what your attorney would charge for doing
it for you.

I had the title company p.o.'d at me when I bought the house since I
only allowed them to process certain documents on behalf of the seller
(my mom) and insisted on handling the rest myself. They tried
retaliating by claiming I'd improperly prepared the paperwork. A quick
conference call between myself, the title company, the county clerk, and
my lawyer stopped that nonsense in its tracks and we closed with no
problems. Though they did then try telling me I'd have to pay the filing
fee, to which I replied that I was heading down to the County office
immediately after closing and handling the filing myself. I ended up
allowing them to do it after they waived the filing fee. They didn't
make a lot of money from our family sale.

I have been studying these subjects on the internet and have begun to query
a buyer's agent about them. But I find others' personal experiences are
always helpful.

I got a free initial consult with a real estate attorney before I even
initiated the home purchase. He gave me advice on how to handle it
myself and also advised me of his fees for handling the transaction on
my behalf. I ended up having him check over all the paperwork prior to
closing for $75.00. So I would encourage you to discuss your options not
only with a buyer's agent but with an experienced lawyer as well.

HellT

Thanks for sharing. It's all very interesting.

I have visited the County Records department (technically I think it was the
tax department, but they're on the same floor where I am) once already, to
get the latest tax valuations of the three homes at which I'm looking. (The
differences are helpful to know, IMO.) Like your experience with this
department, mine was good, too.

Am I reading you correctly when I conclude you paid the Title Company
esssentially only for a Title search?

Thanks also to others who have replied since my last post. All are noted and
helpful.

"Hell Toupee" wrote
Caliban wrote:
snip but noted
What are some steps to take to prevent a title company from ripping a
buyer
off with extraneous, inappropriate fees? (I already plan to ask for a
complete breakdown of the title fees.) For what extraneous,
inappropriate
fees should I keep my eyes peeled?

Everyone should call the County Records department for the county the
property is located in, and ask the clerks there for a listing of all
the paperwork to legally record the transaction. All the clerks I've
dealt with have been very knowledgeable and helpful. A lot of the
documents can be prepared by yourself with the (free) assistance of the
county clerks, then reviewed by your attorney. Or your attorney can
prepare the paperwork for you, but it'll cost more.

Once you know what is required for the transaction to take place, you
can compare that to the title company's list of fees and have them
explain anything that the county didn't tell you was required. You can
decide what documents, if any, you feel capable of preparing yourself,
and tell the title company you'll prepare those yourself. You can also
compare their overall fee to what your attorney would charge for doing
it for you.

I had the title company p.o.'d at me when I bought the house since I
only allowed them to process certain documents on behalf of the seller
(my mom) and insisted on handling the rest myself. They tried
retaliating by claiming I'd improperly prepared the paperwork. A quick
conference call between myself, the title company, the county clerk, and
my lawyer stopped that nonsense in its tracks and we closed with no
problems. Though they did then try telling me I'd have to pay the filing
fee, to which I replied that I was heading down to the County office
immediately after closing and handling the filing myself. I ended up
allowing them to do it after they waived the filing fee. They didn't
make a lot of money from our family sale.

I have been studying these subjects on the internet and have begun to
query
a buyer's agent about them. But I find others' personal experiences are
always helpful.

I got a free initial consult with a real estate attorney before I even
initiated the home purchase. He gave me advice on how to handle it
myself and also advised me of his fees for handling the transaction on
my behalf. I ended up having him check over all the paperwork prior to
closing for $75.00. So I would encourage you to discuss your options not
only with a buyer's agent but with an experienced lawyer as well.

Interesting site, even if it is by a company undoubtedly paid for by title
companies and with, ahem, self-interests. ;-)

Today I learned that where I am title insurance costs about 1% of the home
value. My jaw hit the ground, as I was unprepared for this.

Slowly I'm coming around to accepting the high cost: Racket. Capitalism.
Business. Life. Stinks sometimes but for god's sake never forget to count
the blessings. :-)

Not that this will keep me from fighting tooth and nail the legal industry
on many counts. :-)

"Ovid" wrote
Try reading he

http://www.titleanswers.com/horror.shtml

Don't be cheap. Buy the insurance. It is the best investment you will
probably never need. I bought a house in march and paid for it gladly.
-O
Let us know how it goes for you!

"Caliban" wrote in message
arthlink.net...
When purchasing a house (assume it's a cash payment, with no mortgage):

Is who pays for the title search usually a negotiable point in the
contract?

What does a title company do for the money paid to it? Would a real
estate
attorney paid to do a title search do the same thing?

How much does title insurance cost?

Are there ever fairly good reasons not to purchase title insurance?
(Sarcasm
will be laughed at and then ignored. :-) )

What are some steps to take to prevent a title company from ripping a
buyer
off with extraneous, inappropriate fees? (I already plan to ask for a
complete breakdown of the title fees.) For what extraneous,
inappropriate
fees should I keep my eyes peeled?

I have been studying these subjects on the internet and have begun to
query
a buyer's agent about them. But I find others' personal experiences are
always helpful.