I'm glad Gunner has survived his brush with cardiac surgery.
I'll probably soon have something similar, if I'm lucky. If
not, not.

About his bills and his need to rely on government to help
pay for them:

I can remember when my first daughter was born. The bill
was, IIRC, about $300. Now? Several thousands. In the
meantime, we've had Medicare, Medicaid, tort suits, doctors
who think nothing of driving around in Mercedes and thinking
they deserve to, and insurance bills that few self-employed
can afford. The medical people can save us from various
diseases that would have killed us before, but only at a
whorehouse price. The result is that medical bills are
astronomical. I have lousy insurance that costs me over
$800 per month. I really don't know how much longer I can
afford to pay for it.

The reality is that "socialized medicine" is a fact of life.
We have no choice but to live in the environment the
majority has chosen for us. That environment includes costs
we might not be able to pay and government help that we may
need. Railing against it may feel good, but it doesn't pay
the bills. Expecting Gunner to somehow change the health
care regime that the rest of have chosen is nonsense. I'm
sure (well, sort of) that he would choose to have doctors
driving around in Buicks, tort lawyers to behave themselves,
judges to dismiss frivolous lawsuits with prejudice, and
medical bills to be in line with the general cost of living.
But he doesn't have that power. He can only live in the
world we have created.

--
Robert Sturgeon
Summum ius summa inuria.
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/

Robert Sturgeon wrote:

I can remember when my first daughter was born. The bill
was, IIRC, about $300. Now? Several thousands. In the

So the lawyers have taken over, and most of that money goes to
malpractice insurance, and to incidental costs thereabouts.
For example, the $100 device they used to stich me up was thrown
away, because its "safer" than reuse. Meaning throwing away
$100 tools sounds better than reuse in any court case.

The lawyers are finding ways to bloodsuck profits from every
United States business existing. Now they are going after my
profession big time. Computer software is becoming impossible
to create on a small scale basis because the lawyers are going
wild with software patents.

The big lie of the medical practice is that any procedure must be
perfect. It is just not possible, because we don't untimately know
how to fix every medical problem or to perform perfectly using
imperfect doctors. But the legal system forces doctors to not
only prove that they did everything perfectly, but even that they
should have thought of everything.

The lawyers claim (loudly) that they are making the medical profession
better by holding it accountable. I'm sure ticks also believe they
are making their hosts stronger by ensuring that they are either
healty enough to tolerate blood loss or die and make room for
others.

--
Samiam is Scott A. Moore

Personal web site: http:/www.moorecad.com/scott
My electronics engineering consulting site: http://www.moorecad.com
ISO 7185 Standard Pascal web site: http://www.moorecad.com/standardpascal
Classic Basic Games web site: http://www.moorecad.com/classicbasic
The IP Pascal web site, a high performace, highly portable ISO 7185 Pascal
compiler system: http://www.moorecad.com/ippas

Socialised Medicine?????, Thats like our NHS, IE closet communism.

Socialised Medicine?????, Thats like our NHS, IE closet communism.



They could have fixed this a long time ago if they had wanted to. They dont.
You and I certainly do, but they do not care (regulators, doctors, lawyers,
administrators, etc).

The best option I have found is to go to Mexico whenever I need any major
medical care. They have a great health care system with people who are just
as good as the US if not better, only perhaps lacking equipment that the US
has, which sits idle anyway.

If I recall, at one particular time during the Clinton years, doctors had
threatened to unionize - and I think that they actually did it. And I
wondered, just what would they do if they were to STRIKE ? Form a blockade
around the emergency room ? Block ambulances from picking up the dead and
dieing ?

It's all about the $$$$$$$$. Modern professionalism at it's finest.

Robert Sturgeon wrote:

I have lousy insurance that costs me over $800 per month. I really
don't know how much longer I can afford to pay for it.

What sort of policy do you have that you pay $800/ month for?? What age
group??

And why are you paying $800 a month?? How much medical expense do you
have each year?? When was the last time you actually spent $9600 on
medical bills for a year??

One of the MAJOR problems with our health insurance is that everybody
expects the insurance companies to pay out every time they have a
sniffle or a broken fingernail. I know people that go to the damn doctor
3 times a week like clockwork for stuff that will simply pass if they
let it run it's course. Worse yet, the doctor listens to them whine for
30 seconds, writes them a prescription for cough syrup, and they expect
the insurance company to pay for that too.

Do we turn in a claim on our auto insurance and expect them to pay out
for every oil change and leaky tire?? You can bet if you did your auto
insurance would be just as expensive as your health insurance. Oh, and
the mechanic's bills would go up too since he now has to hire a
secretary to deal with the insurance forms.

What we need is plain old catastrophic health insurance policies, the
kind that pays for things that cost more than we can pay for out our
pocket. Figure out what your comfort level is and buy insurance for
anything above that amount.

About 6 months ago I checked on family catastrphic health insurance for
myself/wife/daughter. Wife and I are 40, I'm a smoker, daughter is 16,
no current medical problems etc. The policy to cover us, $2500
deductible/year, 80-20 after $2500 up to $10,000 max out of pocket/year,
with a preganancy exclusion.
This policy was $138/ month. Not exactly cheap, but alot cheaper than I
hear other's being quoted for policies they don't really need. My
employer offers the exact same policy to me for free, as opposed to over
$200/month for the "bells and whistles" policy.

Tom

Robert Sturgeon wrote:
I'm glad Gunner has survived his brush with cardiac surgery.
I'll probably soon have something similar, if I'm lucky. If
not, not.

About his bills and his need to rely on government to help
pay for them:

I can remember when my first daughter was born. The bill
was, IIRC, about $300. Now? Several thousands. In the
meantime, we've had Medicare, Medicaid, tort suits, doctors
who think nothing of driving around in Mercedes and thinking
they deserve to, and insurance bills that few self-employed
can afford. The medical people can save us from various
diseases that would have killed us before, but only at a
whorehouse price. The result is that medical bills are
astronomical. I have lousy insurance that costs me over
$800 per month. I really don't know how much longer I can
afford to pay for it.

The reality is that "socialized medicine" is a fact of life.
We have no choice but to live in the environment the
majority has chosen for us. That environment includes costs
we might not be able to pay and government help that we may
need. Railing against it may feel good, but it doesn't pay
the bills. Expecting Gunner to somehow change the health
care regime that the rest of have chosen is nonsense. I'm
sure (well, sort of) that he would choose to have doctors
driving around in Buicks, tort lawyers to behave themselves,
judges to dismiss frivolous lawsuits with prejudice, and
medical bills to be in line with the general cost of living.
But he doesn't have that power. He can only live in the
world we have created.

Very well said!

--
Rick

Tom wrote in news:40D59DC5.B5C724AF@cedar-
rapids.net:

Robert Sturgeon wrote:

I have lousy insurance that costs me over $800 per month. I really
don't know how much longer I can afford to pay for it.

What sort of policy do you have that you pay $800/ month for?? What
age
group??

And why are you paying $800 a month?? How much medical expense do you
have each year?? When was the last time you actually spent $9600 on
medical bills for a year??

One of the MAJOR problems with our health insurance is that everybody
expects the insurance companies to pay out every time they have a
sniffle or a broken fingernail. I know people that go to the damn
doctor
3 times a week like clockwork for stuff that will simply pass if they
let it run it's course. Worse yet, the doctor listens to them whine for
30 seconds, writes them a prescription for cough syrup, and they expect
the insurance company to pay for that too.

Do we turn in a claim on our auto insurance and expect them to pay out
for every oil change and leaky tire?? You can bet if you did your auto
insurance would be just as expensive as your health insurance. Oh, and
the mechanic's bills would go up too since he now has to hire a
secretary to deal with the insurance forms.

What we need is plain old catastrophic health insurance policies, the
kind that pays for things that cost more than we can pay for out our
pocket. Figure out what your comfort level is and buy insurance for
anything above that amount.

About 6 months ago I checked on family catastrphic health insurance for
myself/wife/daughter. Wife and I are 40, I'm a smoker, daughter is 16,
no current medical problems etc. The policy to cover us, $2500
deductible/year, 80-20 after $2500 up to $10,000 max out of
pocket/year,
with a preganancy exclusion.
This policy was $138/ month. Not exactly cheap, but alot cheaper than I
hear other's being quoted for policies they don't really need. My
employer offers the exact same policy to me for free, as opposed to
over
$200/month for the "bells and whistles" policy.

Tom





Hrm..where's the deal?
$138 x 12 = $1656
+$2500 deductable = $4156
+If basically ANYTHING happens during the year, to you or anyone in your
family $10,000 Any hospital stay is going to run you roughly $2000 a day.
= 14,156
Should someone get pregnant, prenatal physician care will eat another $1-
4k, not counting the hospital bills, ultrasounds and etc.

I will agree with the fact a lot of people run to the doctor for any
little thing. This hurts more than finacially, in that we reduce our
immune system's effectiveness when we do that. This leads to more
sickness in the future, and more healthcare costs.
Kids don't go outside and roll around in the mud anymore, they have more
of a tendency to stay inside, where the parents make the house as sterile
as possible with all the cleaning agents available today, to 'keep from
getting sick'...that's bull****. A strong immune system is built on
being exposed to everyday stuff.
Now, I am not saying you need to have a dirty house, but the excesses I
see in today's society are a contributing factor to the problem.
Shoo the kids outside and let em play in the mud, sure it's a mess, but
they will be better off for it in the long run.


--
Anthony

You can't 'idiot proof' anything....every time you try, they just make
better idiots.

Remove sp to reply via email

Actually Joe if you read the Portland OR news you will find that the ER, or
trauma, (I think) Dr's are on strike at one of the major hospitals..
lg
no neat sig line
"Joe" wrote in message
news:PwfBc.122325$3x.109533@attbi_s54...
If I recall, at one particular time during the Clinton years, doctors had
threatened to unionize - and I think that they actually did it. And I
wondered, just what would they do if they were to STRIKE ? Form a blockade
around the emergency room ? Block ambulances from picking up the dead and
dieing ?

It's all about the $$$$$$$$. Modern professionalism at it's finest.

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 08:23:01 -0600, Tom
wrote:

Robert Sturgeon wrote:

I have lousy insurance that costs me over $800 per month. I really
don't know how much longer I can afford to pay for it.

What sort of policy do you have that you pay $800/ month for?? What age
group??

I am 57. I have pre-existing conditions - mostly a bad
heart. I had another health insurance policy, but that
company left the California market. I was then uninsurable.
California has a health insurance plan similar to the
assigned risk insurance that drivers with bad driving
records buy. It costs a fortune, and it has very limited
benefits.

And why are you paying $800 a month?? How much medical expense do you
have each year?? When was the last time you actually spent $9600 on
medical bills for a year??

My medical bills do not add up to $9600 (actually, at
$841/month, the insurance comes to just over $10,000/year).
But I have assets, and so if/when I do have major health
expenses, my assets would be wiped out. That's what
insurance does - protect one's assets. I can't afford the
insurance, and I can't afford to go without the insurance.
Fun, huh?

One of the MAJOR problems with our health insurance is that everybody
expects the insurance companies to pay out every time they have a
sniffle or a broken fingernail. I know people that go to the damn doctor
3 times a week like clockwork for stuff that will simply pass if they
let it run it's course. Worse yet, the doctor listens to them whine for
30 seconds, writes them a prescription for cough syrup, and they expect
the insurance company to pay for that too.

You are correct. My previous policy was a catastrophic
coverage policy with a very high deductible. I lost that
(see above). The "assigned risk" policy has very few
options as to what coverage I can buy.

(rest snipped)

--
Robert Sturgeon
Summum ius summa inuria.
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/

Anthony wrote:

Tom wrote in

Robert Sturgeon wrote:

I have lousy insurance that costs me over $800 per month. I really
don't know how much longer I can afford to pay for it.

What sort of policy do you have that you pay $800/ month for?? What
age
group??

About 6 months ago I checked on family catastrphic health insurance for
myself/wife/daughter. Wife and I are 40, I'm a smoker, daughter is 16,
no current medical problems etc. The policy to cover us, $2500
deductible/year, 80-20 after $2500 up to $10,000 max out of
pocket/year, with a preganancy exclusion.
This policy was $138/ month. Not exactly cheap, but alot cheaper than I
hear other's being quoted for policies they don't really need. My
employer offers the exact same policy to me for free, as opposed to
over $200/month for the "bells and whistles" policy.

Hrm..where's the deal?
$138 x 12 = $1656
+$2500 deductable = $4156
+If basically ANYTHING happens during the year, to you or anyone in your
family $10,000 Any hospital stay is going to run you roughly $2000 a day.
= 14,156
Should someone get pregnant, prenatal physician care will eat another $1-
4k, not counting the hospital bills, ultrasounds and etc.

I didn't exactly say it was a "deal", depends on what his $9600/year is
getting him.
Yes, it's a gamble, but consider all the years that you'll pay $9600/year and
use NONE of it like my family has done for the last 15 years, and the
difference gets LARGE in a hurry. Can you use it all up in a heartbeat??
Sure you can, but what's the chances??

I will agree with the fact a lot of people run to the doctor for any
little thing. This hurts more than finacially, in that we reduce our
immune system's effectiveness when we do that.

Wanna increase your immune system's strenghth?? Go sit in the waiting room
of one of the immediate care places for a few hours, you'll get exposed to
everything imaginable.

Kids don't go outside and roll around in the mud anymore, they have more
of a tendency to stay inside, where the parents make the house as sterile
as possible with all the cleaning agents available today, to 'keep from
getting sick'...that's bull****.

Haven't been in alot of other's houses lately have you?? While our's isn't
an operating room it's one hell of alot better than most I get in.

A strong immune system is built on being exposed to everyday stuff.
Now, I am not saying you need to have a dirty house, but the excesses I
see in today's society are a contributing factor to the problem.
Shoo the kids outside and let em play in the mud, sure it's a mess, but
they will be better off for it in the long run.

Amen...............

In article , Richard A. Faust
wrote:

Robert Sturgeon wrote:

The reality is that "socialized medicine" is a fact of life.
We have no choice but to live in the environment the
majority has chosen for us. That environment includes costs
we might not be able to pay and government help that we may
need. Railing against it may feel good, but it doesn't pay
the bills. Expecting Gunner to somehow change the health
care regime that the rest of have chosen is nonsense. I'm
sure (well, sort of) that he would choose to have doctors
driving around in Buicks, tort lawyers to behave themselves,
judges to dismiss frivolous lawsuits with prejudice, and
medical bills to be in line with the general cost of living.
But he doesn't have that power. He can only live in the
world we have created.

Very well said!

As I read Gunner's comments (in the articles which quoted him), these
are bills which were run up and are now due.

We are not, as yet, debating that Gunner got "free medical care." In
fact, he owes some hospitals and doctors, by his own comments.

Now whether they let him slide, or he convinces the taxpayers to pay,
or finds a way to claim his heart attack as a service-related condition
from his service in the mid-70s, are all unresolved issues.

But make no mistake about it: someone did the work, some hospitals had
expenses of their own, and Gunner is the one who owes.

By the way, plenty of people, young people, do in fact die because they
don't have the money for kidney or liver transplants, as one type of
example. Others pay for their medical care by selling their homes and
losing the equity they'd built up. And so on.

It is misleading to start arguing from the point of view that we "
'socialized medicine' is a fact of life."

Mark Wieber made some very strange life decisions, nearly all of them
bad, and now he wants others to be taxed more heavily to pay for his
strange and bad life decisions.

I reject that as morally bankrupt.

--Tim May

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 08:23:01 -0600, Tom
wrote:

Robert Sturgeon wrote:

I have lousy insurance that costs me over $800 per month. I really
don't know how much longer I can afford to pay for it.

What sort of policy do you have that you pay $800/ month for?? What age
group??

And why are you paying $800 a month?? How much medical expense do you
have each year?? When was the last time you actually spent $9600 on
medical bills for a year??

One of the MAJOR problems with our health insurance is that everybody
expects the insurance companies to pay out every time they have a
sniffle or a broken fingernail. I know people that go to the damn doctor
3 times a week like clockwork for stuff that will simply pass if they
let it run it's course. Worse yet, the doctor listens to them whine for
30 seconds, writes them a prescription for cough syrup, and they expect
the insurance company to pay for that too.

Do we turn in a claim on our auto insurance and expect them to pay out
for every oil change and leaky tire?? You can bet if you did your auto
insurance would be just as expensive as your health insurance. Oh, and
the mechanic's bills would go up too since he now has to hire a
secretary to deal with the insurance forms.

What we need is plain old catastrophic health insurance policies, the
kind that pays for things that cost more than we can pay for out our
pocket. Figure out what your comfort level is and buy insurance for
anything above that amount.

About 6 months ago I checked on family catastrphic health insurance for
myself/wife/daughter. Wife and I are 40, I'm a smoker, daughter is 16,
no current medical problems etc. The policy to cover us, $2500
deductible/year, 80-20 after $2500 up to $10,000 max out of pocket/year,
with a preganancy exclusion.
This policy was $138/ month. Not exactly cheap, but alot cheaper than I
hear other's being quoted for policies they don't really need. My
employer offers the exact same policy to me for free, as opposed to over
$200/month for the "bells and whistles" policy.

Tom


Robert it all depends on the nature of your insurance.. and existing
health...

My business health insurance through pacadvantage cost me $1307 per
month for me and my wife.... a 45 year old emplyee cost me $455.. and
22 year student cost me $237 per month... this is forced insurance..
no pre existing conditons can be held against you.... $500
deductible.. max out of pocket $1500.. pre scriptions 10 dollars..
Drs visit 10 etc etc..

I can get almost the same insurance for me and my wife for $365 per
month.. IF she wasn't sick.. and IF she could be underwritten.. but
she is sick... so she has to have Gaurantted Issue witch means it cost
$550 per month for a not so great policy... but MAX $6000 out of
pocket.. $40 DR visit.. $15-30 per prescritiion.. etc etc.. Nice
law in 1996 for quarantee issue of insurance for the sick.. LOL.. but
they only make availble.. second rate insurance..

In other words... if you have a long history of wellness... insurance
is cheap and easy... if you are young.. cheap and easy...

Then through in all the exemptions and riders attached to a policy..
you can get into trouble..

My father was nearly killed in a buldozer accident in 1968... neutral
position leaked down and a tree came off the blade and swatted him in
the head and knocked him off the dozer.. he was in the hospital for
six months.. at home for another four months.. we rented our farm..
had five kids.. Who had insurance back then? We did not go
bankrupt.. we didn't go homeless.... we paid of the hosptital.. and
he is 77 today... of course.. 35 farmers.. did help us plow and plant
and harvest.... but we didn't have tobacco that year..

Things have changed... one small accident... miss six months of
pay... even with good insurance.. miss 8 months of work.. and you
can loose eveyrthing.... unless you keep refinancing your house...
LOL

Be glad you can have cheap insurance... but don't get sick...

Mike

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 14:26:56 GMT, Anthony
wrote:

Tom wrote in news:40D59DC5.B5C724AF@cedar-
rapids.net:

Robert Sturgeon wrote:

I have lousy insurance that costs me over $800 per month. I really
don't know how much longer I can afford to pay for it.

What sort of policy do you have that you pay $800/ month for?? What
age
group??

And why are you paying $800 a month?? How much medical expense do you
have each year?? When was the last time you actually spent $9600 on
medical bills for a year??

One of the MAJOR problems with our health insurance is that everybody
expects the insurance companies to pay out every time they have a
sniffle or a broken fingernail. I know people that go to the damn
doctor
3 times a week like clockwork for stuff that will simply pass if they
let it run it's course. Worse yet, the doctor listens to them whine for
30 seconds, writes them a prescription for cough syrup, and they expect
the insurance company to pay for that too.

Do we turn in a claim on our auto insurance and expect them to pay out
for every oil change and leaky tire?? You can bet if you did your auto
insurance would be just as expensive as your health insurance. Oh, and
the mechanic's bills would go up too since he now has to hire a
secretary to deal with the insurance forms.

What we need is plain old catastrophic health insurance policies, the
kind that pays for things that cost more than we can pay for out our
pocket. Figure out what your comfort level is and buy insurance for
anything above that amount.

About 6 months ago I checked on family catastrphic health insurance for
myself/wife/daughter. Wife and I are 40, I'm a smoker, daughter is 16,
no current medical problems etc. The policy to cover us, $2500
deductible/year, 80-20 after $2500 up to $10,000 max out of
pocket/year,
with a preganancy exclusion.
This policy was $138/ month. Not exactly cheap, but alot cheaper than I
hear other's being quoted for policies they don't really need. My
employer offers the exact same policy to me for free, as opposed to
over
$200/month for the "bells and whistles" policy.

Tom





Hrm..where's the deal?
$138 x 12 = $1656
+$2500 deductable = $4156
+If basically ANYTHING happens during the year, to you or anyone in your
family $10,000 Any hospital stay is going to run you roughly $2000 a day.
= 14,156
Should someone get pregnant, prenatal physician care will eat another $1-
4k, not counting the hospital bills, ultrasounds and etc.

I will agree with the fact a lot of people run to the doctor for any
little thing. This hurts more than finacially, in that we reduce our
immune system's effectiveness when we do that. This leads to more
sickness in the future, and more healthcare costs.
Kids don't go outside and roll around in the mud anymore, they have more
of a tendency to stay inside, where the parents make the house as sterile
as possible with all the cleaning agents available today, to 'keep from
getting sick'...that's bull****. A strong immune system is built on
being exposed to everyday stuff.
Now, I am not saying you need to have a dirty house, but the excesses I
see in today's society are a contributing factor to the problem.
Shoo the kids outside and let em play in the mud, sure it's a mess, but
they will be better off for it in the long run.

While I cannot speak for the rest of the country..California hospitals
ERs are plugged with illegal aliens. And I mean plugged. Its state
law, that no one shall be turned away, for any reason. If the
friendly bag lady decides every day that she is lonely, she can and
often does come in, take up space and time, and after long hours of
dealing with her ****..leaves to repeat the next day. During my stay
at the county hospital last week, I saw repeated instances of that.
My roommate was a terminal drunk, diabetic, on welfare, who refuses to
take his meds, or keep himself in order. His legs get no circulation
because of this, and every couple weeks, he manages to stagger in,
they have to lance the running sores and boils on his legs (nasty
nasty nasty) and after 4 or 5 days, he walks out, only to stick a
bottle in his face, and pull the trigger. And then repeats the
process. He was on first name basis with everyone on that floor. I
asked one of the nurses aids and was given the heads up. (illegally of
course) I saw literally hundreds of illegal aliens all lined up for
treatment of minor ailments. All for free.

Gunner

That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's
cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays
there.
- George Orwell

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 14:26:56 GMT, Anthony
wrote:


Hrm..where's the deal?
$138 x 12 = $1656
+$2500 deductable = $4156
+If basically ANYTHING happens during the year, to you or anyone in your
family $10,000 Any hospital stay is going to run you roughly $2000 a day.
= 14,156
Should someone get pregnant, prenatal physician care will eat another $1-
4k, not counting the hospital bills, ultrasounds and etc.


Read the fine print.. A deductable is not a deductable like it use
to be.. many things are not *applied* to the deductable.. there are
all kinds of hidden cost in insurance these days.. that you don't know
about untill you need it..

prescription drugs are a biggie.. you think you are covered... then
you find out that they only cover 50% of the pills you were
prescribed..... all kinds of little things...


A blue shield PPO 1500 as an example.. has a $1500 deductable.. BUT..
has a $6000 max out of pocket before they pick up 100% on approved
items! Not the treatment you need.. but what they approve..

have a guy locally who can do the job.... or would like to learn a new
procudure on you... must use him... can't go the the top guy in the
nation who lives operates twenty miles away.... not approved..

Even Drs. are conviently treated as a commodity by the insurance
industry...

In the past.. that would have been called a $7500 deductable insurance
policy...

I looked at that two years ago and was amazed...

Mike

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 08:03:38 -0700, Robert Sturgeon
wrote:

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 08:23:01 -0600, Tom
wrote:

Robert Sturgeon wrote:

I have lousy insurance that costs me over $800 per month. I really
don't know how much longer I can afford to pay for it.

What sort of policy do you have that you pay $800/ month for?? What age
group??

I am 57. I have pre-existing conditions - mostly a bad
heart. I had another health insurance policy, but that
company left the California market. I was then uninsurable.
California has a health insurance plan similar to the
assigned risk insurance that drivers with bad driving
records buy. It costs a fortune, and it has very limited
benefits.

And why are you paying $800 a month?? How much medical expense do you
have each year?? When was the last time you actually spent $9600 on
medical bills for a year??

My medical bills do not add up to $9600 (actually, at
$841/month, the insurance comes to just over $10,000/year).
But I have assets, and so if/when I do have major health
expenses, my assets would be wiped out. That's what
insurance does - protect one's assets. I can't afford the
insurance, and I can't afford to go without the insurance.
Fun, huh?

One of the MAJOR problems with our health insurance is that everybody
expects the insurance companies to pay out every time they have a
sniffle or a broken fingernail. I know people that go to the damn doctor
3 times a week like clockwork for stuff that will simply pass if they
let it run it's course. Worse yet, the doctor listens to them whine for
30 seconds, writes them a prescription for cough syrup, and they expect
the insurance company to pay for that too.

You are correct. My previous policy was a catastrophic
coverage policy with a very high deductible. I lost that
(see above). The "assigned risk" policy has very few
options as to what coverage I can buy.

(rest snipped)

--
Robert Sturgeon
Summum ius summa inuria.
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/


Robert.. check into Blue Shield guaranteed issue.. only offered in a
few plans.... but great for catastrophic... in CA..

Mike

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 09:21:36 -0700, Tim May
wrote:

In article , Richard A. Faust
wrote:

Robert Sturgeon wrote:

The reality is that "socialized medicine" is a fact of life.
We have no choice but to live in the environment the
majority has chosen for us. That environment includes costs
we might not be able to pay and government help that we may
need. Railing against it may feel good, but it doesn't pay
the bills. Expecting Gunner to somehow change the health
care regime that the rest of have chosen is nonsense. I'm
sure (well, sort of) that he would choose to have doctors
driving around in Buicks, tort lawyers to behave themselves,
judges to dismiss frivolous lawsuits with prejudice, and
medical bills to be in line with the general cost of living.
But he doesn't have that power. He can only live in the
world we have created.

Very well said!

As I read Gunner's comments (in the articles which quoted him), these
are bills which were run up and are now due.

We are not, as yet, debating that Gunner got "free medical care." In
fact, he owes some hospitals and doctors, by his own comments.

Now whether they let him slide, or he convinces the taxpayers to pay,
or finds a way to claim his heart attack as a service-related condition
from his service in the mid-70s, are all unresolved issues.

But make no mistake about it: someone did the work, some hospitals had
expenses of their own, and Gunner is the one who owes.

By the way, plenty of people, young people, do in fact die because they
don't have the money for kidney or liver transplants, as one type of
example. Others pay for their medical care by selling their homes and
losing the equity they'd built up. And so on.

It is misleading to start arguing from the point of view that we "
'socialized medicine' is a fact of life."

Mark Wieber made some very strange life decisions, nearly all of them
bad, and now he wants others to be taxed more heavily to pay for his
strange and bad life decisions.

I reject that as morally bankrupt.

--Tim May

Medical treatment is already socialized...

That is why treatment is limited by the FDA

That is why illegals get free health care

That is why the poor get indigent care

That is why the federal gov spends billions in health care subsidies..

Goverment rules and regulations limit treatment, liability, for HMOs,
PPOs etc..

The medical profession is completely controlled by goverment...

that is socialized medicine...

MIke

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 18:38:33 GMT, Santa Cruz Mike
wrote:

(snips)

Robert.. check into Blue Shield guaranteed issue.. only offered in a
few plans.... but great for catastrophic... in CA..

My insurance agency did a thorough job of checking my
options - none that were any good.

--
Robert Sturgeon
Summum ius summa inuria.
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 18:35:36 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

While I cannot speak for the rest of the country..California hospitals
ERs are plugged with illegal aliens. And I mean plugged. Its state
law, that no one shall be turned away, for any reason. If the
friendly bag lady decides every day that she is lonely, she can and
often does come in, take up space and time, and after long hours of
dealing with her ****..leaves to repeat the next day. During my stay
at the county hospital last week, I saw repeated instances of that.
My roommate was a terminal drunk, diabetic, on welfare, who refuses to
take his meds, or keep himself in order. His legs get no circulation
because of this, and every couple weeks, he manages to stagger in,
they have to lance the running sores and boils on his legs (nasty
nasty nasty) and after 4 or 5 days, he walks out, only to stick a
bottle in his face, and pull the trigger. And then repeats the
process. He was on first name basis with everyone on that floor. I
asked one of the nurses aids and was given the heads up. (illegally of
course) I saw literally hundreds of illegal aliens all lined up for
treatment of minor ailments. All for free.

Gunner

That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's
cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays
there.
- George Orwell


In Santa Cruz county.. due to lawsuits and fear of lawsuits.. anyone
arrested by cops and appear to be high, drunk etc.. will make a trip
to the hospital first... many ER calls are drunk and drug related...
not medical emergencies per se


MIke

"Santa Cruz Mike" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 08:23:01 -0600, Tom
wrote:

Robert Sturgeon wrote:

I have lousy insurance that costs me over $800 per month. I really
don't know how much longer I can afford to pay for it.

What sort of policy do you have that you pay $800/ month for?? What age
group??

And why are you paying $800 a month?? How much medical expense do you
have each year?? When was the last time you actually spent $9600 on
medical bills for a year??

One of the MAJOR problems with our health insurance is that everybody
expects the insurance companies to pay out every time they have a
sniffle or a broken fingernail. I know people that go to the damn doctor
3 times a week like clockwork for stuff that will simply pass if they
let it run it's course. Worse yet, the doctor listens to them whine for
30 seconds, writes them a prescription for cough syrup, and they expect
the insurance company to pay for that too.

Do we turn in a claim on our auto insurance and expect them to pay out
for every oil change and leaky tire?? You can bet if you did your auto
insurance would be just as expensive as your health insurance. Oh, and
the mechanic's bills would go up too since he now has to hire a
secretary to deal with the insurance forms.

What we need is plain old catastrophic health insurance policies, the
kind that pays for things that cost more than we can pay for out our
pocket. Figure out what your comfort level is and buy insurance for
anything above that amount.

About 6 months ago I checked on family catastrphic health insurance for
myself/wife/daughter. Wife and I are 40, I'm a smoker, daughter is 16,
no current medical problems etc. The policy to cover us, $2500
deductible/year, 80-20 after $2500 up to $10,000 max out of pocket/year,
with a preganancy exclusion.
This policy was $138/ month. Not exactly cheap, but alot cheaper than I
hear other's being quoted for policies they don't really need. My
employer offers the exact same policy to me for free, as opposed to over
$200/month for the "bells and whistles" policy.

Tom


Robert it all depends on the nature of your insurance.. and existing
health...

My business health insurance through pacadvantage cost me $1307 per
month for me and my wife.... a 45 year old emplyee cost me $455.. and
22 year student cost me $237 per month... this is forced insurance..
no pre existing conditons can be held against you.... $500
deductible.. max out of pocket $1500.. pre scriptions 10 dollars..
Drs visit 10 etc etc..
....
[reply only to r.c.m.]

It depends the most on what state you live in. In states with little
regulation
(it's a per-state thing) of the insurance industry, insurers offer great low
rates
to healthy individual customers but as soon as you get sick, forget it.
Watch
that rate go from $138/mo this year to $1500/mo next year.

In states with strong pro-consumer insurance regs, you might pay $500/mo for
that coverage but you are basically guaranteed to keep your full coverage
forever
at whatever the same rate is they would charge to healthy new customers.

Note this concerns only individuals unaffiliated with any group or employer.

Form your own opinion of which way is better - sure is a complex issue.

Santa Cruz Mike wrote in
:



Be glad you can have cheap insurance... but don't get sick...

Mike



Wife fell at work, broke her knee (tibia, knee socket). This required 4
hours of surgery to reconstruct it and place a metal plate and some
screws in it to hold it together so it would heal.
She spent 4 days in the hospital for this. Hospital bill alone was
$18,000+
I've not seen a bill from the Orthopedic Specialist, since this is a
workman's comp case, they haven't sent a duplicate bill to us like the
rest of the medical services she has had to have, but based on the bill
from the first Ortopedic specialist who saw her in the ER, ($1100 for 30
min), I can somewhat imagine what he charged for 4 hours of surgery, not
even counting the follow up visits.
Basically, with all the care she has required to this point, from the
duplicate bills I have received, it now stands at around $40,000 without
the surgeons bill. *Cringe* if this had happened at home.




--
Anthony

You can't 'idiot proof' anything....every time you try, they just make
better idiots.

Remove sp to reply via email

Tim May wrote:
major snip

I reject that as morally bankrupt.

--Tim May

You are a bitter man.
--
Rick

"larry g" wrote in message
...

Actually Joe if you read the Portland OR news you will find that the ER,
or
trauma, (I think) Dr's are on strike at one of the major hospitals..

No ****, lg !!!! If that's true, how ****ing SOCIALIST of the doctors. LOL

Orm

"Santa Cruz Mike" wrote in message
...


A blue shield PPO 1500 as an example.. has a $1500 deductable.. BUT..
has a $6000 max out of pocket before they pick up 100% on approved
items! Not the treatment you need.. but what they approve..

WHAT A RACKET!!!!!

I can remember when my first daughter was born. The bill
was, IIRC, about $300. Now? Several thousands. In the

FYI

Recently had a son, total bill was just a shade over $12k. Nothing
unusual about the birth.

JW

On 20 Jun 2004 18:43:52 -0700, (Jeridiah) wrote:


I can remember when my first daughter was born. The bill
was, IIRC, about $300. Now? Several thousands. In the

FYI

Recently had a son, total bill was just a shade over $12k. Nothing
unusual about the birth.

JW


Whoa.. almost cheaper to adopt!!

"The Independent" wrote in message
...


Ormond Laplunk wrote:

"larry g" wrote in message
...

Actually Joe if you read the Portland OR news you will find that the
ER,
or
trauma, (I think) Dr's are on strike at one of the major hospitals..

No ****, lg !!!! If that's true, how ****ing SOCIALIST of the doctors.
LOL

Orm

Yeap the Doctors a Emanual Legacy health systems trauma center shut the
whole thing down over staffing levels. Don't cry for the doctors as
they also have very lucretave private practices on the side.

What a sec. How can doctors be over worked in a trauma center when they
also have the time for large private practices????

Oh dear me this is a conundrum.

The Independent of Clackamas County, Oregon


The key lies in eliminating the middleman--really I have no problems paying
competant medical professionals, its just that the burden rate is completely
out of hand these days.

BTW: Im just north of you....in Kalama, Wa.-- feel free to gimme a jingle
and drop by if yer in the area any time.

--

SVL

Ormond Laplunk wrote:

"larry g" wrote in message
...

Actually Joe if you read the Portland OR news you will find that the ER,
or
trauma, (I think) Dr's are on strike at one of the major hospitals..

No ****, lg !!!! If that's true, how ****ing SOCIALIST of the doctors. LOL

Orm

Yeap the Doctors a Emanual Legacy health systems trauma center shut the
whole thing down over staffing levels. Don't cry for the doctors as
they also have very lucretave private practices on the side.

What a sec. How can doctors be over worked in a trauma center when they
also have the time for large private practices????

Oh dear me this is a conundrum.

The Independent of Clackamas County, Oregon

"The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of
speeches and majority decisions ... but by iron and blood."

(Otto Von Bismarck, Speech, Sept. 30, 1862.)

On 20 Jun 2004 18:43:52 -0700, (Jeridiah) wrote:


I can remember when my first daughter was born. The bill
was, IIRC, about $300. Now? Several thousands. In the

FYI

Recently had a son, total bill was just a shade over $12k. Nothing
unusual about the birth.


For a natural event, not an illness or injury.
Bizarre!


Cheers
Tim

Tim Leech
Dutton Dry-Dock

Traditional & Modern canal craft repairs

In article PwfBc.122325$3x.109533@attbi_s54,
"Joe" wrote:

wondered, just what would they do if they were to STRIKE ?

In other countries doctors/hospitals have gone on strike. In every
instance the death rate has gone DOWN markedly.

--
Free men own guns, slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 03:52:38 -0400, Nick Hull
wrote:

In article PwfBc.122325$3x.109533@attbi_s54,
"Joe" wrote:

wondered, just what would they do if they were to STRIKE ?

In other countries doctors/hospitals have gone on strike. In every
instance the death rate has gone DOWN markedly.

http://www.mercola.com/2004/may/26/doctors_death.htm
http://www.mercola.com/2000/jul/30/doctors_death.htm
http://www.mercola.com/1999/archive/...l_mistakes.htm
http://www.mercola.com/1999/archive/...lth_system.htm


1994: LA Doctors go on strike. Death rate in LA decreases.

1997: Doctors in Israel go on strike. Death rate in Israel again
decreases..000000000000
http://www.aafp.org/afp/971101ap/hol...oblem-Oriented

Drug-Induced Disorders
EILEEN G. HOLLAND, PHARM.D., and FRANK V. DEGRUY, M.D.
University of South Alabama College of Medicine, Mobile, Alabama
Recent estimates suggest that each year more than 1 million patients
are injured while in the hospital and approximately 180,000 die
because of these injuries. Furthermore, drug-related morbidity and
mortality are common and are estimated to cost more than $136 billion
a year. The most common type of drug-induced disorder is
dose-dependent and predictable. Many adverse drug events occur as a
result of drug-drug, drug-disease or drug-food interactions and,
therefore, are preventable. Clinicians' awareness of the agents that
commonly cause drug-induced disorders and recognition of compromised
organ function can significantly decrease the likelihood that an
adverse event will occur. Patient assessment should include a thorough
medication history, including an analysis of all prescribed and
over-the-counter medications, vitamins, herbs and "health-food"
products to identify drug-induced problems and potentially reversible
conditions. An increased awareness among clinicians of drug-induced
disorders should maximize their recognition and minimize their
incidence.


That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's
cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays
there.
- George Orwell

I can remember when my first daughter was born. The bill
was, IIRC, about $300. Now? Several thousands. In the

FYI

Recently had a son, total bill was just a shade over $12k. Nothing
unusual about the birth.


For a natural event, not an illness or injury.
Bizarre!

Yeah, I was a little shocked by that too. I had already checked into
it before he came along. Thankfully it is pretty much covered by
insurance, but it's pretty ridiculous. That BTW is just for the
delivery and hospital stay.

Each checkup is about $150(100% covered). These "checkups" involve
about 5 min of actual face time with any professional(doctor or
nurse). I wish I could charge $1800/hr for my time!

The whole thing is out of control. Most of it is liability insurance.
I have heard there are a lot of doctors in Western states leaving
because they can't afford the 6 digit hikes in malpractice and
liability insurance.

We can't expect these people to be perfect. We would sure LIKE them
to be, but each and every case is so radically different(even for
"routine" stuff) it is hard to expect them to get it right 100% of the
time. In all honesty, the success rate they do have is VERY
impressive.

JW

On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 22:48:59 -0700, Robert Sturgeon
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

How the **** did you turn rampant caputalism by a power group
(doctors) into socialism?

I'm glad Gunner has survived his brush with cardiac surgery.
I'll probably soon have something similar, if I'm lucky. If
not, not.

About his bills and his need to rely on government to help
pay for them:

I can remember when my first daughter was born. The bill
was, IIRC, about $300. Now? Several thousands. In the

||In other countries doctors/hospitals have gone on strike. In every
||instance the death rate has gone DOWN markedly.

I've been well aware for some time that a disproportionate percentage of deaths
occur in hospitals. I avoid them whenever possible.
Texas Parts Guy

Top posted because it is not a direct response to Mr. Gunner.

Glad you are back on the track to health Gunner. Sorry to see that so
many people are blasting you for using the services needed..I guess they
think the choice was to die over the notion that US socialism is handled
wrongly in it's current state VS. living based on the system offered.

I think many have missed the point: It's not the socialized parts of
the US that are inherently bad....it's the fact that the benefits of the
socialized portions often do not come with the responsibilities one
should take to participate in those programs. (just my opinion)

As the old children's hen story goes...." you didn't help plant the
wheat, harvest the wheat, grind the wheat, .....so you don't get to
share in the feast" With privileges come responsibilities.

Koz

Gunner wrote:

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 03:52:38 -0400, Nick Hull
wrote:



In article PwfBc.122325$3x.109533@attbi_s54,
"Joe" wrote:



wondered, just what would they do if they were to STRIKE ?


In other countries doctors/hospitals have gone on strike. In every
instance the death rate has gone DOWN markedly.



http://www.mercola.com/2004/may/26/doctors_death.htm
http://www.mercola.com/2000/jul/30/doctors_death.htm
http://www.mercola.com/1999/archive/...l_mistakes.htm
http://www.mercola.com/1999/archive/...lth_system.htm


1994: LA Doctors go on strike. Death rate in LA decreases.

1997: Doctors in Israel go on strike. Death rate in Israel again
decreases..000000000000
http://www.aafp.org/afp/971101ap/hol...oblem-Oriented

Drug-Induced Disorders
EILEEN G. HOLLAND, PHARM.D., and FRANK V. DEGRUY, M.D.
University of South Alabama College of Medicine, Mobile, Alabama
Recent estimates suggest that each year more than 1 million patients
are injured while in the hospital and approximately 180,000 die
because of these injuries. Furthermore, drug-related morbidity and
mortality are common and are estimated to cost more than $136 billion
a year. The most common type of drug-induced disorder is
dose-dependent and predictable. Many adverse drug events occur as a
result of drug-drug, drug-disease or drug-food interactions and,
therefore, are preventable. Clinicians' awareness of the agents that
commonly cause drug-induced disorders and recognition of compromised
organ function can significantly decrease the likelihood that an
adverse event will occur. Patient assessment should include a thorough
medication history, including an analysis of all prescribed and
over-the-counter medications, vitamins, herbs and "health-food"
products to identify drug-induced problems and potentially reversible
conditions. An increased awareness among clinicians of drug-induced
disorders should maximize their recognition and minimize their
incidence.


That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's
cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays
there.
- George Orwell

"Strabo" wrote in message
...
Sounds like an insured birth.
Let's see, 3 days, a bed, a nerve block, and an
obstetrician and nurse for several hours. Oh, and
exposure to various bacilli.
Only about $3000 of that was earned. The rest went for
uninsured losses, double-billing, premium rates (the second set
of books) and padding to make up for the delayed payment.

Yes, it says a lot when today's strong, intelligent, superior
females are willing to undergo male oppression in a male
dominated institution when their grandmothers birthed at home
with a friend, relative or midwife, for little or nothing.


I see you have never wandered around in the old graveyards.
It was not unusual for grandpa to go through two or three wives.
Even the citified people with their high falutin' Doctors lost a lot of
wives and kids during childbirth.

Yep, them doctors and hospitals are a thievin' bunch. You should definitely
avoid them.

In article , Strabo says...

Costs have become so high that the non-insured who could
ordinarily pay a realistic amount do not pay.

There is another factor at play here. Health insurance premiums
are now so high that healthy young folks are now getting priced
out of the market. This leaves a larger proportion of older,
sicker individuals who now participate in the ponzi scheme.

Which means they have to raise the rates even more, etc.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

"Strabo" wrote in message
...
On 20 Jun 2004 18:43:52 -0700, (Jeridiah)
wrote:


I can remember when my first daughter was born. The bill
was, IIRC, about $300. Now? Several thousands. In the

FYI

Recently had a son, total bill was just a shade over $12k. Nothing
unusual about the birth.

JW

Sounds like an insured birth.

Let's see, 3 days, a bed, a nerve block, and an
obstetrician and nurse for several hours. Oh, and
exposure to various bacilli.

3 days for a normal birth? What planet are you from. It's 24 hours after
the birth, if you're lucky. With a Csection the doctor had to approve the
3rd day.

Joel. phx


Only about $3000 of that was earned. The rest went for
uninsured losses, double-billing, premium rates (the second set
of books) and padding to make up for the delayed payment.

Yes, it says a lot when today's strong, intelligent, superior
females are willing to undergo male oppression in a male
dominated institution when their grandmothers birthed at home
with a friend, relative or midwife, for little or nothing.

Strabo wrote:

On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 22:48:59 -0700, Robert Sturgeon
wrote:

I'm glad Gunner has survived his brush with cardiac surgery.
I'll probably soon have something similar, if I'm lucky. If
not, not.

About his bills and his need to rely on government to help
pay for them:

I can remember when my first daughter was born. The bill
was, IIRC, about $300. Now? Several thousands. In the
meantime, we've had Medicare, Medicaid, tort suits, doctors
who think nothing of driving around in Mercedes and thinking
they deserve to, and insurance bills that few self-employed
can afford. The medical people can save us from various
diseases that would have killed us before, but only at a
whorehouse price. The result is that medical bills are
astronomical. I have lousy insurance that costs me over
$800 per month. I really don't know how much longer I can
afford to pay for it.

The reality is that "socialized medicine" is a fact of life.
We have no choice but to live in the environment the
majority has chosen for us. That environment includes costs
we might not be able to pay and government help that we may
need. Railing against it may feel good, but it doesn't pay
the bills. Expecting Gunner to somehow change the health
care regime that the rest of have chosen is nonsense. I'm
sure (well, sort of) that he would choose to have doctors
driving around in Buicks, tort lawyers to behave themselves,
judges to dismiss frivolous lawsuits with prejudice, and
medical bills to be in line with the general cost of living.
But he doesn't have that power. He can only live in the
world we have created.

Generally speaking you are correct, a majority have
allowed a form of "socialized medicine" to be thrust
upon us. This and corruption and fraud have percipitated
huge increases in medical costs.

However, there are an increasing number of doctors that will
accept personal payment in lieu of insurance and charge much
less for the same service. The doctor receives payment sooner
rather than waiting weeks, sometimes months, his paperwork
costs are minimized and he is not prompted to perform unnecessary
tests.

A side benefit of this approach is privacy. The results of the
services along with a SSN are not sent to insurance companies
to be habded out to credit agencies and government databases.



Cash usually makes anybody move a little faster.


John

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 08:24:01 GMT, Gunner
calmly ranted:

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 03:52:38 -0400, Nick Hull
wrote:

In article PwfBc.122325$3x.109533@attbi_s54,
"Joe" wrote:

wondered, just what would they do if they were to STRIKE ?

In other countries doctors/hospitals have gone on strike. In every
instance the death rate has gone DOWN markedly.

http://www.mercola.com/2004/may/26/doctors_death.htm
-snip-

My favorite is right on the money (so to speak):
http://www.mercola.com/2003/jan/15/doctors_drugs.htm
Nick Regush got it in 1.
$1.5 trillion/yr down the drain.


--
STOP THE SLAUGHTER! || http://diversify.com
Boycott Baby Oil! || Programmed Websites

In article , Koz
wrote:

Top posted because it is not a direct response to Mr. Gunner.

Glad you are back on the track to health Gunner. Sorry to see that so
many people are blasting you for using the services needed..I guess they
think the choice was to die over the notion that US socialism is handled
wrongly in it's current state VS. living based on the system offered.


No, the situation is that he failed to save, failed to have a job
sufficient to obtain insurance for either his wife, himself, or his
"son." Further, he has continued to live in an area he admits is too
far from the kind of work he could conceivably do.

This is called "learned helplessness."

His wife consumed $400,000 in public funds for not being insured,
Gunner has consumed now some unspecified amount (for a heart attack,
and treatment, so very probably in the $50K range and up, perhaps
comparable to his wife's bills).

He made poor life choice, poor job choices, poor insurance choices.

This is no different from the "learned helplessness" of the welfare
types he so strongly criticized and ranted against for so many years.

And I'll bet he continues to live in remote Taft, away from jobs, and
mopes and plays with this self-described toys, guns, and old pieces of
junk. Were I a social worker in his case (thank Odin I am not), I would
force him to get rid of his shop full of stuff, as payment on his
bills, then require him to move to where he can actually commute to a
real job.

I would not tolerate learned helplessness and excuses about how
"Clinton sent the jobs overseas."

More to the point, after reading his rants about cripples and bums and
welfare handouts all these years (apparently even as his wife was
taking public funds in very large amounts), we should shun him if and
when he resumes these rants.

He is acting like a welfare Democrat, so he should be treated as one.


--Tim May