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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
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Shop Insurance.....
Gang...
I have a house and a remote garage. All property was insured by one Company back in 1996. Decided I would open a small business in the remote garage doing all kinds of general repair work (woodworking, welding, small gas engine repair, lawntractors, etc). Secured all necessary paperwork, variances, sales tax licenses, etc., and since my original homeowners insurance would not write a small commercial business, I secured a separate company to write the commercial policy. Everything fine until a couple of years went by - when I received a cancellation notice from my home insurance company. "Because I increased risk to their covered interests". Checked with the PA insurance commission - Yup, they are allowed to do that (after I paid premiums to them since 1977). Okay, had to find another insurance company to cover my house. Done (albeit at a much higher rate). Then after a couple more years, the commercial policy writer says we are no longer going to write "small business" so you are cancelled. Checked with home insurance company - they don't write commercial. Looked around - found another company to write small business (again at a much higher rate). A week or so ago, send in annual premium for the commercial policy - last night got a call from them - "We will no longer write a policy for less than $xxx annual premium" . The $xxx annual premium is about $50 more than the already considerably higher premium I had been paying for the commercial coverage. I broke - said send back my check , cancel my policy, I'm going to close the business as I don't work for the insurance company and ain't gonna spend every evening and all weekends working to pay an insurance premium. Anyone out there have any suggestions? BTW - I just morally can't gouge my customers to pay an insurance premium. There is a repair shop not too far from where I'm located that has a big sign ----" We charge $90/hour to work on your mower. We charge $30 for an estimate" Ken (depressed). |
#2
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Shop Insurance.....
You are not alone.
I have an apt. bldg. NO claims/ liability suits in 30 years. Ins premium $2000. Bldg turns 30, I get dropped. They give some b.s. reason. I get a new quote, $10,000. That's $1000/ unit/ year. If you have a mortgage/ loan, the insurance companies & agents have you by the balls. Lenders require insurance, or they call the loan. Agents wait to give you a new quote, 'til you won't have time to shop around. ....... neat huh??? I don't need "property coverage" just "general liability" for the slip-n-falls. Gen. Liability alone, if they will write it, is almost as much as "the package." I'm "free & clear" so I may "go bare" for 4 yrs & bail out. I'm pondering the situation. Perusing the cover of a sailing magazine "The Crisis in Cruising Insurance" caught my eye. Apparently they have problems too....... you can't even escape by going on a world cruise. Is there a crisis???...... not unless you think getting wiped out by medical bills or losing your building/ business/ everything, is a problem. This will remain "a nation of risk takers," but not in the original sense of the term. Ken Sterling wrote in message s.com... Gang... I have a house and a remote garage. All property was insured by one Company back in 1996. Decided I would open a small business in the remote garage doing all kinds of general repair work (woodworking, welding, small gas engine repair, lawntractors, etc). Secured all necessary paperwork, variances, sales tax licenses, etc., and since my original homeowners insurance would not write a small commercial business, I secured a separate company to write the commercial policy. Everything fine until a couple of years went by - when I received a cancellation notice from my home insurance company. "Because I increased risk to their covered interests". Checked with the PA insurance commission - Yup, they are allowed to do that (after I paid premiums to them since 1977). Okay, had to find another insurance company to cover my house. Done (albeit at a much higher rate). Then after a couple more years, the commercial policy writer says we are no longer going to write "small business" so you are cancelled. Checked with home insurance company - they don't write commercial. Looked around - found another company to write small business (again at a much higher rate). A week or so ago, send in annual premium for the commercial policy - last night got a call from them - "We will no longer write a policy for less than $xxx annual premium" . The $xxx annual premium is about $50 more than the already considerably higher premium I had been paying for the commercial coverage. I broke - said send back my check , cancel my policy, I'm going to close the business as I don't work for the insurance company and ain't gonna spend every evening and all weekends working to pay an insurance premium. Anyone out there have any suggestions? BTW - I just morally can't gouge my customers to pay an insurance premium. There is a repair shop not too far from where I'm located that has a big sign ----" We charge $90/hour to work on your mower. We charge $30 for an estimate" Ken (depressed). |
#3
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Shop Insurance.....
The problem is the damn lawyers and the market. Insurance companies used
to make their money by assessing risk and actually writing insurance i.e. if they had a claim they paid the loss. Now they sell the risk to reinsurance companies so they basically add zero value. The reinsurance companies used to make tons of money by investing it but the financial markets have gone to crap so now they are being much more selective and the insurance companies, now not used to actually doing anything useful for a living (like taking on risk), want huge new premiums. This is greatly aggravated by the lawyers' steady drumbeat for "sue-sue-sue" giving any kind of injury the connotation of winning the lottery. What is needed are two things: much stronger oversight of insurance companies by state insurance commissioners offices, and new legislation called "tort reform". Tort reform is being considered in most states. Now you guys are learning why. I had to sell a boom truck I loved because my premiums skyrocketed. My brother in law, who used to be a general contractor, can no longer practice his trade and make any money because no company in Washington State would write him a policy. It's getting damn near unbearable. Get involved and do research and become informed citizen advocates for reform. That's about all any of us mortals can do in a practical sense. Grant Erwin Kirkland, Washington larsen-tools wrote: You are not alone. I have an apt. bldg. NO claims/ liability suits in 30 years. Ins premium $2000. Bldg turns 30, I get dropped. They give some b.s. reason. I get a new quote, $10,000. That's $1000/ unit/ year. If you have a mortgage/ loan, the insurance companies & agents have you by the balls. Lenders require insurance, or they call the loan. Agents wait to give you a new quote, 'til you won't have time to shop around. ....... neat huh??? I don't need "property coverage" just "general liability" for the slip-n-falls. Gen. Liability alone, if they will write it, is almost as much as "the package." I'm "free & clear" so I may "go bare" for 4 yrs & bail out. I'm pondering the situation. Perusing the cover of a sailing magazine "The Crisis in Cruising Insurance" caught my eye. Apparently they have problems too....... you can't even escape by going on a world cruise. Is there a crisis???...... not unless you think getting wiped out by medical bills or losing your building/ business/ everything, is a problem. This will remain "a nation of risk takers," but not in the original sense of the term. Ken Sterling wrote in message s.com... Gang... I have a house and a remote garage. All property was insured by one Company back in 1996. Decided I would open a small business in the remote garage doing all kinds of general repair work (woodworking, welding, small gas engine repair, lawntractors, etc). Secured all necessary paperwork, variances, sales tax licenses, etc., and since my original homeowners insurance would not write a small commercial business, I secured a separate company to write the commercial policy. Everything fine until a couple of years went by - when I received a cancellation notice from my home insurance company. "Because I increased risk to their covered interests". Checked with the PA insurance commission - Yup, they are allowed to do that (after I paid premiums to them since 1977). Okay, had to find another insurance company to cover my house. Done (albeit at a much higher rate). Then after a couple more years, the commercial policy writer says we are no longer going to write "small business" so you are cancelled. Checked with home insurance company - they don't write commercial. Looked around - found another company to write small business (again at a much higher rate). A week or so ago, send in annual premium for the commercial policy - last night got a call from them - "We will no longer write a policy for less than $xxx annual premium" . The $xxx annual premium is about $50 more than the already considerably higher premium I had been paying for the commercial coverage. I broke - said send back my check , cancel my policy, I'm going to close the business as I don't work for the insurance company and ain't gonna spend every evening and all weekends working to pay an insurance premium. Anyone out there have any suggestions? BTW - I just morally can't gouge my customers to pay an insurance premium. There is a repair shop not too far from where I'm located that has a big sign ----" We charge $90/hour to work on your mower. We charge $30 for an estimate" Ken (depressed). |
#4
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Shop Insurance.....
Ken wrote:
Gang... I have a house and a remote garage. All property was insured by one Company back in 1996. Decided I would open a small business in the remote garage doing all kinds of general repair work (woodworking, welding, small gas engine repair, lawntractors, etc). Secured all necessary paperwork, variances, sales tax licenses, etc., and since my original homeowners insurance would not write a small commercial business, I secured a separate company to write the commercial policy. Everything fine until a couple of years went by - when I received a cancellation notice from my home insurance company. "Because I increased risk to their covered interests". Checked with the PA insurance commission - Yup, they are allowed to do that (after I paid premiums to them since 1977). Okay, had to find another insurance company to cover my house. Done (albeit at a much higher rate). Then after a couple more years, the commercial policy writer says we are no longer going to write "small business" so you are cancelled. Checked with home insurance company - they don't write commercial. Looked around - found another company to write small business (again at a much higher rate). A week or so ago, send in annual premium for the commercial policy - last night got a call from them - "We will no longer write a policy for less than $xxx annual premium" . The $xxx annual premium is about $50 more than the already considerably higher premium I had been paying for the commercial coverage. I broke - said send back my check , cancel my policy, I'm going to close the business as I don't work for the insurance company and ain't gonna spend every evening and all weekends working to pay an insurance premium. Anyone out there have any suggestions? BTW - I just morally can't gouge my customers to pay an insurance premium. There is a repair shop not too far from where I'm located that has a big sign ----" We charge $90/hour to work on your mower. We charge $30 for an estimate" Ken (depressed). I understand your problem. Because of an ownership change issue, I have just completed negotiating and moving to a new company: 1. Building fire and theft 2. Business general liability 3. Business product liability 4. Business auto liability 5. Workman's comp. 6. Employee long-term disability 7. Employee health insurance. 8. Employee vision care insurance. And probably a couple other things I can't remember. So yeah, sorry it forced you out of business. I don't have any great fondness for insurance companies at the moment either. All I can suggest is finding a hungry broker to dig around for you. There might be something that you missed. Also, insurance rates vary tremendously with the classifications of work (and resulting risk) that you do. Make sure that you are rated for the least risky classifications that you can honestly get by with. |
#5
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Shop Insurance.....
"Jim Stewart" wrote in message ... (snip) Also, insurance rates vary tremendously with the classifications of work (and resulting risk) that you do. Make sure that you are rated for the least risky classifications that you can honestly get by with. So TRUE. If your word processors and coffee makers turn out to look like sand-hogs and demolition workers, LOL. |
#6
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Shop Insurance.....
Ken wrote: Gang... I have a house and a remote garage. All property was insured by one Company back in 1996. Decided I would open a small business in the remote garage doing all kinds of general repair work (woodworking, welding, small gas engine repair, lawntractors, etc). Secured all necessary paperwork, variances, sales tax licenses, etc., and since my original homeowners insurance would not write a small commercial business, I secured a separate company to write the commercial policy. Everything fine until a couple of years went by - when I received a cancellation notice from my home insurance company. "Because I increased risk to their covered interests". Checked with the PA insurance commission - Yup, they are allowed to do that (after I paid premiums to them since 1977). Okay, had to find another insurance company to cover my house. Done (albeit at a much higher rate). Then after a couple more years, the commercial policy writer says we are no longer going to write "small business" so you are cancelled. Checked with home insurance company - they don't write commercial. Looked around - found another company to write small business (again at a much higher rate). A week or so ago, send in annual premium for the commercial policy - last night got a call from them - "We will no longer write a policy for less than $xxx annual premium" . The $xxx annual premium is about $50 more than the already considerably higher premium I had been paying for the commercial coverage. I broke - said send back my check , cancel my policy, I'm going to close the business as I don't work for the insurance company and ain't gonna spend every evening and all weekends working to pay an insurance premium. Anyone out there have any suggestions? BTW - I just morally can't gouge my customers to pay an insurance premium. There is a repair shop not too far from where I'm located that has a big sign ----" We charge $90/hour to work on your mower. We charge $30 for an estimate" Ken (depressed). Yeah, sounds like me! I have a very small manufacturing business, making electronic gear on contract, mostly. I have a lathe, mill, soldering iron, and a bunch of electronic test gear. I have a house valued at about $200K, and I pay about $950 a year for insurance for that. The last insurance quote I could even obtain a few years ago wanted over $950 to insure $30,000 worth of business gear! That's a rate 6.7 TIMES higher! Why? Because criminals burn their businesses with abandon whenever they get in trouble? Because I'm being lumped in with the financial criminals of Enron, etc.? Do people with home shops REALLY pose such a high loss rate to the insurers? I have serious doubts about it! The insurance companies have gouged the doctors so bad they are going to self-insurance, by creating their own insurance pools. Maybe us small businesses and home businesses should do the same. The insurance companies will probably lobby the state legislatures to outlaw self insurance, of course! Jon |
#7
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Shop Insurance.....
Big business has almost always had "self insurance" but if you call your
state insurance agency / commission you'll find you have to put up a pretty high "performance bond" or something to that effect in order to participate. Also, you'll probably have to go through half a dozen people to reach anyone that can even talk to you about it. Then you'll have to call back several times just to get them to send you a copy of the regulations concerning self insurance! It's a "trade secret" that the little man is not supposed to know about. Actually, the insurance companies are betting your house WON'T burn and you're betting it WILL burn (or have other harm / liability claim, etc.) when you purchase. If it were not for the banks demanding they be protected the average person would be better off without insurance -- if they'd properly "invest" the premiums. Want to bet there is not financial ties between the loan offices, mortgage bankers, etc. and the insurance companies? Nice racket isn't it? :-) Check out: http://www.chiff.com/business/small-...sociations.htm Al ================= Jon Elson wrote: Ken wrote: Gang... I have a house and a remote garage. All property was insured by one Company back in 1996. Decided I would open a small business in the remote garage doing all kinds of general repair work (woodworking, welding, small gas engine repair, lawntractors, etc). Secured all necessary paperwork, variances, sales tax licenses, etc., and since my original homeowners insurance would not write a small commercial business, I secured a separate company to write the commercial policy. Everything fine until a couple of years went by - when I received a cancellation notice from my home insurance company. "Because I increased risk to their covered interests". Checked with the PA insurance commission - Yup, they are allowed to do that (after I paid premiums to them since 1977). Okay, had to find another insurance company to cover my house. Done (albeit at a much higher rate). Then after a couple more years, the commercial policy writer says we are no longer going to write "small business" so you are cancelled. Checked with home insurance company - they don't write commercial. Looked around - found another company to write small business (again at a much higher rate). A week or so ago, send in annual premium for the commercial policy - last night got a call from them - "We will no longer write a policy for less than $xxx annual premium" . The $xxx annual premium is about $50 more than the already considerably higher premium I had been paying for the commercial coverage. I broke - said send back my check , cancel my policy, I'm going to close the business as I don't work for the insurance company and ain't gonna spend every evening and all weekends working to pay an insurance premium. Anyone out there have any suggestions? BTW - I just morally can't gouge my customers to pay an insurance premium. There is a repair shop not too far from where I'm located that has a big sign ----" We charge $90/hour to work on your mower. We charge $30 for an estimate" Ken (depressed). Yeah, sounds like me! I have a very small manufacturing business, making electronic gear on contract, mostly. I have a lathe, mill, soldering iron, and a bunch of electronic test gear. I have a house valued at about $200K, and I pay about $950 a year for insurance for that. The last insurance quote I could even obtain a few years ago wanted over $950 to insure $30,000 worth of business gear! That's a rate 6.7 TIMES higher! Why? Because criminals burn their businesses with abandon whenever they get in trouble? Because I'm being lumped in with the financial criminals of Enron, etc.? Do people with home shops REALLY pose such a high loss rate to the insurers? I have serious doubts about it! The insurance companies have gouged the doctors so bad they are going to self-insurance, by creating their own insurance pools. Maybe us small businesses and home businesses should do the same. The insurance companies will probably lobby the state legislatures to outlaw self insurance, of course! Jon |
#8
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Shop Insurance.....
On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 08:21:25 -0800, Grant Erwin
wrote: The problem is the damn lawyers and the market. Insurance companies used to make their money by assessing risk and actually writing insurance i.e. if they had a claim they paid the loss. Now they sell the risk to reinsurance companies so they basically add zero value. The reinsurance companies used to make tons of money by investing it but the financial markets have gone to crap so now they are being much more selective and the insurance companies, now not used to actually doing anything useful for a living (like taking on risk), want huge new premiums. This is greatly aggravated by the lawyers' steady drumbeat for "sue-sue-sue" giving any kind of injury the connotation of winning the lottery. What is needed are two things: much stronger oversight of insurance companies by state insurance commissioners offices, and new legislation called "tort reform". Tort reform is being considered in most states. Now you guys are learning why. I had to sell a boom truck I loved because my premiums skyrocketed. My brother in law, who used to be a general contractor, can no longer practice his trade and make any money because no company in Washington State would write him a policy. It's getting damn near unbearable. Get involved and do research and become informed citizen advocates for reform. That's about all any of us mortals can do in a practical sense. Grant Erwin Kirkland, Washington larsen-tools wrote: You are not alone. I have an apt. bldg. NO claims/ liability suits in 30 years. Ins premium $2000. Bldg turns 30, I get dropped. They give some b.s. reason. I get a new quote, $10,000. That's $1000/ unit/ year. If you have a mortgage/ loan, the insurance companies & agents have you by the balls. Lenders require insurance, or they call the loan. Agents wait to give you a new quote, 'til you won't have time to shop around. ....... neat huh??? I don't need "property coverage" just "general liability" for the slip-n-falls. Gen. Liability alone, if they will write it, is almost as much as "the package." I'm "free & clear" so I may "go bare" for 4 yrs & bail out. I'm pondering the situation. Perusing the cover of a sailing magazine "The Crisis in Cruising Insurance" caught my eye. Apparently they have problems too....... you can't even escape by going on a world cruise. Is there a crisis???...... not unless you think getting wiped out by medical bills or losing your building/ business/ everything, is a problem. This will remain "a nation of risk takers," but not in the original sense of the term. Ken Sterling wrote in message s.com... Gang... I have a house and a remote garage. All property was insured by one Company back in 1996. Decided I would open a small business in the remote garage doing all kinds of general repair work (woodworking, welding, small gas engine repair, lawntractors, etc). Secured all necessary paperwork, variances, sales tax licenses, etc., and since my original homeowners insurance would not write a small commercial business, I secured a separate company to write the commercial policy. Everything fine until a couple of years went by - when I received a cancellation notice from my home insurance company. "Because I increased risk to their covered interests". Checked with the PA insurance commission - Yup, they are allowed to do that (after I paid premiums to them since 1977). Okay, had to find another insurance company to cover my house. Done (albeit at a much higher rate). Then after a couple more years, the commercial policy writer says we are no longer going to write "small business" so you are cancelled. Checked with home insurance company - they don't write commercial. Looked around - found another company to write small business (again at a much higher rate). A week or so ago, send in annual premium for the commercial policy - last night got a call from them - "We will no longer write a policy for less than $xxx annual premium" . The $xxx annual premium is about $50 more than the already considerably higher premium I had been paying for the commercial coverage. I broke - said send back my check , cancel my policy, I'm going to close the business as I don't work for the insurance company and ain't gonna spend every evening and all weekends working to pay an insurance premium. Anyone out there have any suggestions? BTW - I just morally can't gouge my customers to pay an insurance premium. There is a repair shop not too far from where I'm located that has a big sign ----" We charge $90/hour to work on your mower. We charge $30 for an estimate" Ken (depressed). Grant, I must disagree about the lawers driving up the costs. I just went through the whole lawsuit thing. Took 4 1/2 years. The insurance company admitted fault at first and paid the property damage. And then, when they found out how bad I was really hurt said I must be at fault. It wasn't me driving on the wrong side of the road. It wasn't me completely over the line and only two feet from my right road edge. No one was speeding, no alcohol or drugs, no faulty mechanical equipment. The first offer made by the insurance company wouldn't even have covered the medical bills. Finally, after I spend over 60,000 in expert fees to say things like "it is hard to avoid a truck coming at you in your lane as you come around a curve" the insurance company settles. A week before trial. And if I had no lawyer I would have gotten squat. Insurance companies are using a few inflated claims to convince folks the reason your premiums are going up because of these claims. These claims, the large ones, are a tiny fraction of claims paid. The real problems are many and tort reform will not save you any money. If you think it will then you need to do a little more studying and look at where exactly the money goes. RANT OFF, Eric r Snow |
#9
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Shop Insurance.....
SNIP
Yeah, sounds like me! I have a very small manufacturing business, making electronic gear on contract, mostly. I have a lathe, mill, soldering iron, and a bunch of electronic test gear. I have a house valued at about $200K, and I pay about $950 a year for insurance for that. The last insurance quote I could even obtain a few years ago wanted over $950 to insure $30,000 worth of business gear! That's a rate 6.7 TIMES higher! Why? Because criminals burn their businesses with abandon whenever they get in trouble? Because I'm being lumped in with the financial criminals of Enron, etc.? Do people with home shops REALLY pose such a high loss rate to the insurers? I have serious doubts about it! The insurance companies have gouged the doctors so bad they are going to self-insurance, by creating their own insurance pools. Maybe us small businesses and home businesses should do the same. The insurance companies will probably lobby the state legislatures to outlaw self insurance, of course! Jon Greetings Jon, Self insurance sounds great. I wonder how to go about setting that up. The last place my brother worked was self insured for medical and they had premiums much less than what I was paying for better coverage. ERS |
#10
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Shop Insurance.....
I would tend to agree with what Eric had to say. A good example is
medical malpractice. According to Bush Sr (yea, it's getting old), the amount of lawsuits adds up to 5% of what is spent on medical in the USA. However, from the insurance payer's (doctor's and providers) standpoint, it appears that premiums are waaaaay higher than the actual % of gross cost of all suits. Some Doctors are speaking of paying more than 50% of gross for malpractice insurance. These numbers don't add up. Of course there are incidentals that skew things a bit like the cost of someone washing hospital bedsheets being part of gross medical costs even though there is unlikely to be a suit for a poorly folded sheet. However, Tort reform is a red herring for increasing profits of insurers. A couple of changes need to be made though: For one, if your house is damaged by a regular disaster ( like being in a flood plain), you should be responsible for either paying adequate insurance costs or not be able to be covered. In Washington, there are cases of houses being almost fully remodeled about every 5 years due to floods. Good money shouldn't be thrown after bad. Also, for any major suit there should be a "stupidity" test. If your stupidity was a major contributor to the problem, then you can't sue. Maybe a panel of average citizens to review case merit or something before they go to court. Not solutions, but maybe a basis to build a start. Koz Eric R Snow wrote: a big wad 'o snipped stuff Grant, I must disagree about the lawers driving up the costs. I just went through the whole lawsuit thing. Took 4 1/2 years. The insurance company admitted fault at first and paid the property damage. And then, when they found out how bad I was really hurt said I must be at fault. It wasn't me driving on the wrong side of the road. It wasn't me completely over the line and only two feet from my right road edge. No one was speeding, no alcohol or drugs, no faulty mechanical equipment. The first offer made by the insurance company wouldn't even have covered the medical bills. Finally, after I spend over 60,000 in expert fees to say things like "it is hard to avoid a truck coming at you in your lane as you come around a curve" the insurance company settles. A week before trial. And if I had no lawyer I would have gotten squat. Insurance companies are using a few inflated claims to convince folks the reason your premiums are going up because of these claims. These claims, the large ones, are a tiny fraction of claims paid. The real problems are many and tort reform will not save you any money. If you think it will then you need to do a little more studying and look at where exactly the money goes. RANT OFF, Eric r Snow |
#11
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Shop Insurance.....
Ken wrote:
Gang... I have a house and a remote garage. All property was insured by one Company back in 1996. Decided I would open a small business in the remote garage doing all kinds of general repair work (woodworking, welding, small gas engine repair, lawntractors, etc). Secured all necessary paperwork, variances, sales tax licenses, etc., and since my original homeowners insurance would not write a small commercial business, I secured a separate company to write the commercial policy. Everything fine until a couple of years went by - when I received a cancellation notice from my home insurance company. "Because I increased risk to their covered interests". Checked with the PA insurance commission - Yup, they are allowed to do that (after I paid premiums to them since 1977). Okay, had to find another insurance company to cover my house. Done (albeit at a much higher rate). Then after a couple more years, the commercial policy writer says we are no longer going to write "small business" so you are cancelled. Checked with home insurance company - they don't write commercial. Looked around - found another company to write small business (again at a much higher rate). A week or so ago, send in annual premium for the commercial policy - last night got a call from them - "We will no longer write a policy for less than $xxx annual premium" . The $xxx annual premium is about $50 more than the already considerably higher premium I had been paying for the commercial coverage. I broke - said send back my check , cancel my policy, I'm going to close the business as I don't work for the insurance company and ain't gonna spend every evening and all weekends working to pay an insurance premium. Anyone out there have any suggestions? BTW - I just morally can't gouge my customers to pay an insurance premium. There is a repair shop not too far from where I'm located that has a big sign ----" We charge $90/hour to work on your mower. We charge $30 for an estimate" Ken (depressed). Yeah, sounds like me! I have a very small manufacturing business, making electronic gear on contract, mostly. I have a lathe, mill, soldering iron, and a bunch of electronic test gear. I have a house valued at about $200K, and I pay about $950 a year for insurance for that. The last insurance quote I could even obtain a few years ago wanted over $950 to insure $30,000 worth of business gear! That's a rate 6.7 TIMES higher! Why? Because criminals burn their businesses with abandon whenever they get in trouble? Because I'm being lumped in with the financial criminals of Enron, etc.? Do people with home shops REALLY pose such a high loss rate to the insurers? I have serious doubts about it! The insurance companies have gouged the doctors so bad they are going to self-insurance, by creating their own insurance pools. Maybe us small businesses and home businesses should do the same. The insurance companies will probably lobby the state legislatures to outlaw self insurance, of course! Jon Thing is, I wonder what you guys are doing in your little shops when you perhaps weld up and turn down a shaft or something for someone, and charge them $15-$20 for the job. You are running a business out of your house (shop) and if that guy comes to pick up his shaft, and slips/trips and get hurt (or just says that he did) you need to have the insurance to cover your entire property/house and everything. If he takes the shaft home, installs it in his application, and it fractures and explodes - again you need the insurance as he will come back saying he lost an eye or something. The insurance I carried was for the slips/falls etc., plus the liability of working on the equipment, plus the coverage for customers' equipment while on my property (fire, theft, etc.). How are you guys handling this problem - or are you just taking your chances for a few cash bucks on the side? I went to the trouble of setting the business up properly, sales tax license, insurances, etc and everything is above board and accounted for but I'm getting beat up (although I did get a good many new tools and stuff during the course of this business which were a write off (some depreciated over a few years and some a one time write-off)). Maybe no one out there really wants to say that they just take the cash and hope nothing happens, but I really wonder what the odds are nowadays with the sue-sue attitude. I mean if you are stupid enough to spill hot coffee in your lap because you are holding the cup between your legs, why do the insurance lawyers simply offer to settle instead of busting their butts a little bit and fighting it in court? I'm a little ****ed - I'm sorry for the rant..... Ken. |
#12
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Shop Insurance.....
My brother in law, who
used to be a general contractor, can no longer practice his trade and make any money because no company in Washington State would write him a policy. It's getting damn near unbearable. Get involved and do research and become informed citizen advocates for reform. That's about all any of us mortals can do in a practical sense. Yup, I have a brother-in-law who had his own roofing company. His insurance rates put him out of business. He couldn't compete with the big guys any longer. He now works for one of them. The insurance companies don't seem to like little businesses. Lane |
#13
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Shop Insurance.....
Eric R Snow wrote: SNIP Yeah, sounds like me! I have a very small manufacturing business, making electronic gear on contract, mostly. I have a lathe, mill, soldering iron, and a bunch of electronic test gear. I have a house valued at about $200K, and I pay about $950 a year for insurance for that. The last insurance quote I could even obtain a few years ago wanted over $950 to insure $30,000 worth of business gear! That's a rate 6.7 TIMES higher! Why? Because criminals burn their businesses with abandon whenever they get in trouble? Because I'm being lumped in with the financial criminals of Enron, etc.? Do people with home shops REALLY pose such a high loss rate to the insurers? I have serious doubts about it! The insurance companies have gouged the doctors so bad they are going to self-insurance, by creating their own insurance pools. Maybe us small businesses and home businesses should do the same. The insurance companies will probably lobby the state legislatures to outlaw self insurance, of course! Jon Greetings Jon, Self insurance sounds great. I wonder how to go about setting that up. The last place my brother worked was self insured for medical and they had premiums much less than what I was paying for better coverage. ERS Well, I guess I am self-insured, to an extent, already. I don't have coverage on the business equipment, for fire, theft, etc. There's even a possibility that if my house burned down, the insurers would see the remains of my mill and lathe, and refuse to pay a cent on any part of the house! And, of course, I have no liability insurance on the stuff I manufacture. I suspect any group of people can get together and form a corporation for property insurance of the corporation members. It almost certainly gets more complicated when you want to provide liability insurance, as it is not as easy to determine how high the risk is there. Jon |
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Also, for any major suit there should be a "stupidity" test. If your
stupidity was a major contributor to the problem, then you can't sue. Maybe a panel of average citizens to review case merit or something before they go to court. You mean like a grand jury, except for civil cases? Interesting, I like it. Of course, you'd get twice as many jury summons' in your mailbox. :^) --Glenn Lyford |
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I don't operate my shop as a commercial enterprise. I got into machining to
develop "construction devices"...... tools. I did have product liability insurance when trying to sell my first "wonder" and will have it next time out. For what you describe, I'd say the need for insurance depends more on the scale of what you are doing, than on what you are doing. IOW if you advertise and hold yourself out to the public as a general machine shop you might want some kind of insurance......... but might not, if you are following customer directives and you are not an OEM. Many disasters just never happen. Ken Sterling wrote in message s.com... Ken wrote: Gang... I have a house and a remote garage. All property was insured by one Company back in 1996. Decided I would open a small business in the remote garage doing all kinds of general repair work (woodworking, welding, small gas engine repair, lawntractors, etc). Secured all necessary paperwork, variances, sales tax licenses, etc., and since my original homeowners insurance would not write a small commercial business, I secured a separate company to write the commercial policy. Everything fine until a couple of years went by - when I received a cancellation notice from my home insurance company. "Because I increased risk to their covered interests". Checked with the PA insurance commission - Yup, they are allowed to do that (after I paid premiums to them since 1977). Okay, had to find another insurance company to cover my house. Done (albeit at a much higher rate). Then after a couple more years, the commercial policy writer says we are no longer going to write "small business" so you are cancelled. Checked with home insurance company - they don't write commercial. Looked around - found another company to write small business (again at a much higher rate). A week or so ago, send in annual premium for the commercial policy - last night got a call from them - "We will no longer write a policy for less than $xxx annual premium" . The $xxx annual premium is about $50 more than the already considerably higher premium I had been paying for the commercial coverage. I broke - said send back my check , cancel my policy, I'm going to close the business as I don't work for the insurance company and ain't gonna spend every evening and all weekends working to pay an insurance premium. Anyone out there have any suggestions? BTW - I just morally can't gouge my customers to pay an insurance premium. There is a repair shop not too far from where I'm located that has a big sign ----" We charge $90/hour to work on your mower. We charge $30 for an estimate" Ken (depressed). Yeah, sounds like me! I have a very small manufacturing business, making electronic gear on contract, mostly. I have a lathe, mill, soldering iron, and a bunch of electronic test gear. I have a house valued at about $200K, and I pay about $950 a year for insurance for that. The last insurance quote I could even obtain a few years ago wanted over $950 to insure $30,000 worth of business gear! That's a rate 6.7 TIMES higher! Why? Because criminals burn their businesses with abandon whenever they get in trouble? Because I'm being lumped in with the financial criminals of Enron, etc.? Do people with home shops REALLY pose such a high loss rate to the insurers? I have serious doubts about it! The insurance companies have gouged the doctors so bad they are going to self-insurance, by creating their own insurance pools. Maybe us small businesses and home businesses should do the same. The insurance companies will probably lobby the state legislatures to outlaw self insurance, of course! Jon Thing is, I wonder what you guys are doing in your little shops when you perhaps weld up and turn down a shaft or something for someone, and charge them $15-$20 for the job. You are running a business out of your house (shop) and if that guy comes to pick up his shaft, and slips/trips and get hurt (or just says that he did) you need to have the insurance to cover your entire property/house and everything. If he takes the shaft home, installs it in his application, and it fractures and explodes - again you need the insurance as he will come back saying he lost an eye or something. The insurance I carried was for the slips/falls etc., plus the liability of working on the equipment, plus the coverage for customers' equipment while on my property (fire, theft, etc.). How are you guys handling this problem - or are you just taking your chances for a few cash bucks on the side? I went to the trouble of setting the business up properly, sales tax license, insurances, etc and everything is above board and accounted for but I'm getting beat up (although I did get a good many new tools and stuff during the course of this business which were a write off (some depreciated over a few years and some a one time write-off)). Maybe no one out there really wants to say that they just take the cash and hope nothing happens, but I really wonder what the odds are nowadays with the sue-sue attitude. I mean if you are stupid enough to spill hot coffee in your lap because you are holding the cup between your legs, why do the insurance lawyers simply offer to settle instead of busting their butts a little bit and fighting it in court? I'm a little ****ed - I'm sorry for the rant..... Ken. |
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I closed a small business around 1984 or 85 for the same reason. No
claims and the annual premiums went up by a factor of 10. It was bad enough that there was a class action suit against the insurance industry (or maybe saying a collection of insurance companies would be more accurate). If you look back to that time you will notice an economic down turn. Sound familiar? It seems that when times are good the insurance companies make their money from investments and when times are bad the make their money from premiums. Note that the rates seldom go down. The class action lawsuit? I didn't know anything about it or that I was part of it until the settlement notices went out. The settlement included some fines that went somewhere, required the insurance company to fund educational effort to see that such a thing didn't happen again, and obviously included something for the lawyers. The small businesses that were hurt got absolutely nothing. Not even an offer of insurance for a reasonable price. I've come to believe that insurance isn't about mitigating my risk. It is about making money for the insurance companies. Dave |
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On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 11:39:38 GMT, Ken Sterling wrote:
snipped: I used to discuss this with an older self-employed machinest, very, accomplished man, he made heavy duty machinery for large corporations, 300hp gang saws, planers ect. His biggest beef was product liability insurance. He claimed it cost much more to insure his products than to make them. He limited his cost and exposure via incorporation, but eventually phased out the fabrication business and just did repair. Almost every machine in his shop was accuired from bankrupt competors. This situation tilts the table in favor of the bigger players and forces the little guys out. DE -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
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Shop Insurance.....
Yesterday I stated potential ties between the insurance companies and
bankers (see below) and today I heard a commercial for STATE FARM BANK ! Do a search for "State Farm Bank" and see how many hits you get. I got 12,300 off Google. Check out: http://www.statefarm.com/bank/bank.htm I'm sure there must be many others, so I'm not picking on State Farm. Prudential Insurance, Securities, Real Estate -- ??? Banking ??? Al ===================== Al Patrick wrote: Want to bet there is not financial ties between the loan offices, mortgage bankers, etc. and the insurance companies? Nice racket isn't it? :-) Check out: http://www.chiff.com/business/small-...sociations.htm |
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On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 19:14:42 -0800, "Lane" lane_nospam@copperaccents_dot_com wrote:
My brother in law, who used to be a general contractor, can no longer practice his trade and make any money because no company in Washington State would write him a policy. It's getting damn near unbearable. Get involved and do research and become informed citizen advocates for reform. That's about all any of us mortals can do in a practical sense. Yup, I have a brother-in-law who had his own roofing company. His insurance rates put him out of business. He couldn't compete with the big guys any longer. He now works for one of them. The insurance companies don't seem to like little businesses. Yet large companies self-insure, so the insurance companies make no money off of them. Insurance companies like small and middle sized businesses, and individuals, because only those need insurance. They aren't big enough to carry the risk themselves. The insurance industry primarily makes its money on "float". That's the cash they've received in the form of premiums which they haven't yet had to pay out in the form of claims. Think of it as a tax and interest free loan you're giving the insurance company. They invest that money, and keep any profit made on those investments. As long as the float is large, and doesn't turn over too rapidly, they really don't mind paying out as much in claims as they receive in premiums. Their main objective is to maximize float. The way that they determine how to maximize float isn't always clear or obvious to the potential customer. They're interested in your history, including your history of paying your bills on time, but they're also interested in the history of your industry, and the history of your area. And they're very interested in the investment climate (which determines how much they can make on the float). If your personal financial history is dubious, they're going to charge more. (For personal insurance, they even look at how many credit cards you have, too many makes them nervous, as do too few). If your industry has a history of frequent or large claims, they're going to charge more. If claims pay outs have been high in your area, even if not in your industry, they're going to charge more. If the investment climate is sour, and return on the float is low, they're going to charge more. Etc. The constant recurring theme in all this is, "they're going to charge more". They're going to charge as much as they can consistent with maximizing float. In other words, as long as they don't lose too much business due to high rates, they're going to charge high rates. To make sure that they don't lose too much business, insurance companies work with legislators to get laws passed mandating insurance coverage. They work with lenders to make sure people who borrow have to have insurance. They even welcome the rare but highly publicized exorbitant jury award, because it scares people into buying more insurance coverage to guard against it. Insurance companies don't actually want real tort reform. That would cause them to lose customers, or at least it would reduce the amount of insurance people would carry. That would be bad for business, because it would reduce the amount of float. Insurance companies also don't want claims to be settled quickly, because that would reduce the amount of time they get to use the float. Gary |
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On Sat, 27 Mar 2004 16:40:25 GMT, Dave Rolley wrote:
I've come to believe that insurance isn't about mitigating my risk. It is about making money for the insurance companies. Well, duh! They aren't in the business out of the goodness of their hearts. They're in it to make money, as much of it as they possibly can, without getting thrown in jail. That's what businesses do. The main problem with insurance is that they're selling you "what ifs" instead of a tangible product. They're playing on your fears. The average customer isn't equipped to calculate the actual value of the real risks he faces, so it is difficult to be an intelligent consumer when buying insurance. People tend to over buy and over pay. Most of us would be better off self-insuring to the maximum extent feasible, and only buying insurance against the catastrophic events that would bankrupt us with only self-insurance. Strong tort reform would be beneficial to us under that scenario, which is why the insurance industry doesn't really want it. They want us to buy insurance covering every possible loss, no matter how small or how unlikely. That maximizes their float, and float is where they make their money. Gary |
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On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 01:22:52 -0500, Gary Coffman
wrote: The main problem with insurance is that they're selling you "what ifs" instead of a tangible product. They're playing on your fears. The average customer isn't equipped to calculate the actual value of the real risks he faces, so it is difficult to be an intelligent consumer when buying insurance. People tend to over buy and over pay. Most of us would be better off self-insuring to the maximum extent feasible, and only buying insurance against the catastrophic events that would bankrupt us with only self-insurance. Yup. Heard a complaint recently about renewal cost on vehicle insurance. I said "why don't you drop the comprehensive?" And he said "what, pay for my own chipped windshields?" Seems like taking risks, even the smallest ones, is long out of fashion. It came up a while back when renting a big compressor. I opted out of the "covers all" optional insurance (according to the fine print, it didn't cover much anyway). Which caused a big hubub at the rental store. Seems nobody had *ever* opted out before. The guy at the counter told me that he wasn't sure he was even allowed to rent the machine unless I paid for insurance. Yet he couldn't answer the most basic questions about what it actually covered. Eventually there were three guys staring at me from the managers office, probably trying to decide whether to take a chance on me or call 911. Wayne |
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