I'm hoping that someone out there who knows more than I about
rain gutters, who has done work on their own gutters similar
to what I'm considering, or who has used one of the companies
I'm considering, will be able to provide some helpful insight
and advice...

We use Ned Stevens (NS) to clean our gutters several times
each year. The last two times they cleaned our gutters, they
informed us that several of the gutters have separated from
the fascia boards and need to be replaced. When I asked
whether they could repair the gutters instead, they were
adamant that only replacement would solve the problem.

Because this seemed fishy to me, and because I try to always
get multiple estimates before doing any major work on my home,
I called New England Gutter Kings (GK) and asked them to come
out and give me three estimates:

1. cost of repairing the existing gutters, if in their
opinion they could be repaired;

2. cost of installing all new standard gutters; and

3. cost of installing their "King Cover" covered gutter
system, which has a lifetime warranty against blocked gutters
(i.e., they claim that we'll never need to have our gutters
cleaned again, and if the gutters ever get blocked, GK will
come out and clear them for free).

The estimator from GK seemed very professional and said:

1. As far as he could tell from looking at them from the
ground, there's no reason why our existing gutters can't be
repaired, and GK will do it for $400, which includes
installing new flashing everywhere to ensure that rain drips
solidly into the gutters rather than leaking behind them.

2. Installing all new gutters will cost $1,652.

3. King Cover can be installed either on our existing
gutters or on the all new gutters for $1,360. If we install
it on our existing gutters, then repairs to the existing
gutters are included so we won't have to pay the $400.

All of this seemed perfectly reasonable. Then I asked NS for similar estimates. They said the following:

1. Replace bad gutters for $608 (which takes into account a
10% discount for being on their annual service plan).

2. Replace all gutters for $963 (again includes 10%
discount).

3. Annual service plan, which includes minor repairs and
four gutter cleanings, is $384.

4. They don't recommend gutter cover systems, because
debris and small animals get into them (i.e., they don't
really work as advertised) and then it's difficult to clear
the blockages because of the covers.

Some thoughts and observations:

* I thought NS was trying to rip me off when they claimed
that the gutters needed to be replaced rather than repaired,
but the price they're quoting to replace them is only a couple
hundred dollars higher than GK is quoting to repair them.

* It's hard to say why NS is insisting on replacement
rather than repair. Perhaps they saw something when cleaning
our gutters that GK didn't see when inspecting them from the
ground. Perhaps replacing is easier than repairing and they
don't have enough crews with the expertise to do repairs.
Perhaps they don't like repairing old gutters because such
repairs tend to fail more often than new gutters and they
don't want to warranty work that's likely to fail due to
circumstances outside their control.

* NS's price for installing all new gutters is much
cheaper than GK's price.

* Is NS telling the truth when they say that gutter cover
systems don't work, or are they just trying to protect a
guaranteed annual revenue stream from selling me their annual
service plan?

* If GK's representations and warranty for its cover
system can be believed, then the covers will pay for
themselves in less than four years, since I will no longer
have to pay for gutter cleanings.

* GK has an A rating in Angie's List, 116 reports there,
and 5 "Page of Happiness" nominations. NS has a B rating,
only 12 reports (which suggests that perhaps there isn't
enough data for an accurate rating), and no POH nominations.

What my gut is telling me at this point is (a) Ned Stevens
probably isn't actually trying to rip me off, but (b) I should
probably go with the $1,360 quote from New England Gutter
Kings to repair the existing gutters and install covers.

Does anybody have any advice to offer?

In article , (Jonathan Kamens) wrote:
I'm hoping that someone out there who knows more than I about
rain gutters, who has done work on their own gutters similar
to what I'm considering, or who has used one of the companies

I know on my gutters its almost impossible for them to go bad. Its almost
impossible to fix them without redoing the roofing. I had to break the bond
on one so I could tilt the gutter in the other direction, now its not properly
mated and I got some make shift material to catch the rain.
I think you need a third opinion by a person qualified, not
necessarily a company.

greg

On 12/16/09 09:20, Jonathan Kamens wrote:
....
* Is NS telling the truth when they say that gutter cover
systems don't work, or are they just trying to protect a
guaranteed annual revenue stream from selling me their annual
service plan?
....

Not sure about the covers you are talking about but on my
previous house we had Gutter Helmets installed and they worked
perfectly. For at least the 8 years we had them when we were
there. They also had the 'never clog' guarantee. Never needed
it. And we backed up to woods pretty close in.

We did get a bird get into one gutter on the back porch one time
but that was because of an opening that was under and overhang that
didn't have the cover installed there. Separated the cover from
the gutter just a bit more and he got free.

I'd go with the 'gutter helmet' style solution, no question. But
it is pricy...

Bob

These are primarily arguments from ignorance, but:

- I have heard, vaguely, that gutter cover systems are not
as perfect as one might hope. I wouldn't be surprised if some
things got into them, although, of course, many fewer than
get into open gutters. And cleaning them out would be harder.
I'd view that one as a toss-up requiring more information.

- And I wouldn't be surprised at the wildly varying quotes. I don't
think that this kind of pricing is systematic across companies. I've
been surprised.

- Finally, although I use Angie's List, I have been surprised by
mis-steps from some of their highly rated vendors. Sort of
like the pricing issue, I don't think that there's any common
agreement on what constitutes an A, B, C, D, or F from a
vendor. Angie's List is probably good at keeping out the
really bad people, but once you hit reasonably competent,
you're going to get a huge variation in reputation based on
a difference in customers.

Good luck,

Julian


On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 14:20:41 +0000 (UTC),
(Jonathan Kamens) wrote:

I'm hoping that someone out there who knows more than I about
rain gutters, who has done work on their own gutters similar
to what I'm considering, or who has used one of the companies
I'm considering, will be able to provide some helpful insight
and advice...

We use Ned Stevens (NS) to clean our gutters several times
each year. The last two times they cleaned our gutters, they
informed us that several of the gutters have separated from
the fascia boards and need to be replaced. When I asked
whether they could repair the gutters instead, they were
adamant that only replacement would solve the problem.

Because this seemed fishy to me, and because I try to always
get multiple estimates before doing any major work on my home,
I called New England Gutter Kings (GK) and asked them to come
out and give me three estimates:

1. cost of repairing the existing gutters, if in their
opinion they could be repaired;

2. cost of installing all new standard gutters; and

3. cost of installing their "King Cover" covered gutter
system, which has a lifetime warranty against blocked gutters
(i.e., they claim that we'll never need to have our gutters
cleaned again, and if the gutters ever get blocked, GK will
come out and clear them for free).

The estimator from GK seemed very professional and said:

1. As far as he could tell from looking at them from the
ground, there's no reason why our existing gutters can't be
repaired, and GK will do it for $400, which includes
installing new flashing everywhere to ensure that rain drips
solidly into the gutters rather than leaking behind them.

2. Installing all new gutters will cost $1,652.

3. King Cover can be installed either on our existing
gutters or on the all new gutters for $1,360. If we install
it on our existing gutters, then repairs to the existing
gutters are included so we won't have to pay the $400.

All of this seemed perfectly reasonable. Then I asked NS for similar estimates. They said the following:

1. Replace bad gutters for $608 (which takes into account a
10% discount for being on their annual service plan).

2. Replace all gutters for $963 (again includes 10%
discount).

3. Annual service plan, which includes minor repairs and
four gutter cleanings, is $384.

4. They don't recommend gutter cover systems, because
debris and small animals get into them (i.e., they don't
really work as advertised) and then it's difficult to clear
the blockages because of the covers.

Some thoughts and observations:

* I thought NS was trying to rip me off when they claimed
that the gutters needed to be replaced rather than repaired,
but the price they're quoting to replace them is only a couple
hundred dollars higher than GK is quoting to repair them.

* It's hard to say why NS is insisting on replacement
rather than repair. Perhaps they saw something when cleaning
our gutters that GK didn't see when inspecting them from the
ground. Perhaps replacing is easier than repairing and they
don't have enough crews with the expertise to do repairs.
Perhaps they don't like repairing old gutters because such
repairs tend to fail more often than new gutters and they
don't want to warranty work that's likely to fail due to
circumstances outside their control.

* NS's price for installing all new gutters is much
cheaper than GK's price.

* Is NS telling the truth when they say that gutter cover
systems don't work, or are they just trying to protect a
guaranteed annual revenue stream from selling me their annual
service plan?

* If GK's representations and warranty for its cover
system can be believed, then the covers will pay for
themselves in less than four years, since I will no longer
have to pay for gutter cleanings.

* GK has an A rating in Angie's List, 116 reports there,
and 5 "Page of Happiness" nominations. NS has a B rating,
only 12 reports (which suggests that perhaps there isn't
enough data for an accurate rating), and no POH nominations.

What my gut is telling me at this point is (a) Ned Stevens
probably isn't actually trying to rip me off, but (b) I should
probably go with the $1,360 quote from New England Gutter
Kings to repair the existing gutters and install covers.

Does anybody have any advice to offer?

Following up on my own posting with more information...

This morning, I got a third consultation from Stephen
Frederick. Stephen has been installing and repairing gutters
in the Boston area for more than 25 years and comes highly
recommended by friends of ours and by everyone on Angie's List.

The most important thing he told me is that the biggest risk
mentioned by the other companies -- water leaking behind the
gutters and causing the fascia boards to rot -- is not in fact
a risk at all, because my fascia boards are covered by
aluminum. Neither of the other two companies mentioned this.
Either they both intentionally misled me about the risk of
rotting fascia boards, or they were both too clueless to
understand that it isn¢t a risk when the boards are covered.

Stephen also said that none of my gutters need to be replaced
("I hate to say it, but those gutter cleaning companies don't
make a lot of money cleaning gutters; they make their money
//selling// gutters") and that he only sees them pulling away
from the house slightly in one place, which he said he could
repair for about $100.

Stephen strongly recommends against gutter covers for two main
reasons:

1. They don't really keep everything out of the gutters.
They may keep enough of the big stuff out to prevent the
gutters from becoming completely clogged, but they let dirt
and small stuff get through and build up at the bottom of the
gutters. This has all sorts of negative ramifications, e.g.,
slower water flow through the gutters to the downspouts; extra
weight on the nails / screws causing the gutters to pull away
from the house; providing a breeding ground for mosquitoes;
etc. Furthermore, in a good ol' New England deluge, the
covers don't let the water into the gutters fast enough and it
comes pouring over the side.

2. The supposed lifetime warranty applies for as long as
the covers are attached to the house, but what they don't
mention is that they put screws through the bottom row of
shingles when installing them. When you replace your
shingles, the covers have to be removed; say good-bye to your
warranty!

I called New England Gutter Kings and asked them to fax or
email me a copy of the full warranty on the covers, since the
informational packet they gave me contains only a "summary" of
the warranty. They said they would email it to me "right
away," but it never arrived. This could have been a simple
email transmission problem, or perhaps it was a passive
aggressive attempt to prevent me from seeing the full warranty
before paying them to install the gutters.

It looks like I'll soon be another satisfied customer of
Stephen Frederick.

Jonathan, thanks a lot for all that good information. I was dealing
with similar problems and got some clarifications through you now.

Can you check with Stephen whether he services New Jersey?

Wilko