Gary Heston wrote:

I suppose you could carpet the walls; a layer of Tyvek HomeWrap under it would
cut down on air infiltration and not cause moisture buildup.

I think carpet would only add R1 at best, and it seems to me the vapor barrier
should be on the warm side. One might glue 2x6 studs on 2' centers on-edge to
the walls with a can of foam and put 6" R19 fiberglass insulation between them
and staple poly film or foil or nail thin foil-polyiso foamboard over that.

Nick

krw wrote:

Any energy you put into latent heat will come back later.

Latent heat, as in evaporation?

As long as you don't get condensation mold shouldn't be an issue.

To avoid mold, keep the RH below 60%.

Nick

In article , "JonquilJan" wrote:
wondering about heating this next winter. right now, I have forced air with
a propane furnace. Furnace new this past season. Very old house (pre 1850)
which has been insulated as much as possible (vertical very thick plank
walls - would have to build stud wall on the inside to put in more
insulation )

thinking of closing off more than I have already (2nd floor entirely closed
off) and using heavy drapes/curtain/blankets to enclose the living room and
adjacent bedroom - which would be the only rooms with open registers - other
than the bathroom - and supplementing with a kerosene heater (which I have
had for 25 years). But considering that the rooms would be closed/curtained
off - with reduced air flow - thinking also one of the oil filled electric
heater might be safer. If power goes (which it can) would open the curtains
and use the kero heater. Last winter I had the thermostat at 64. I am
disabled - 69 - and having increasing problems with mobility and keeping
warm.

Pay about $4000 a year for propane - heat and cooking only. Hot water
heater is electric - new at the same time as the furnace - and has only
raised my electric bill about $10 a month - so far. I expect propane will
be much, much more costly this next heating season.

Suggestions - ideas. I live in northern New York state.

JonquilJan

Learn something new every day
As long as you are learning, you are living
When you stop learning, you start dying

As far as heat loss, if you can't do it your self, hire someone that can give
your homes heat loss with thermal imaging and drafting, etc.

Insulating is something I basically constantly do, every year figuring out
what to do next. You didn't mention whats on the outside, wood, shingle, siding, brick ?


greg

In article , (GregS) wrote:
In article , "JonquilJan"
wrote:
wondering about heating this next winter. right now, I have forced air with
a propane furnace. Furnace new this past season. Very old house (pre 1850)
which has been insulated as much as possible (vertical very thick plank
walls - would have to build stud wall on the inside to put in more
insulation )

thinking of closing off more than I have already (2nd floor entirely closed
off) and using heavy drapes/curtain/blankets to enclose the living room and
adjacent bedroom - which would be the only rooms with open registers - other
than the bathroom - and supplementing with a kerosene heater (which I have
had for 25 years). But considering that the rooms would be closed/curtained
off - with reduced air flow - thinking also one of the oil filled electric
heater might be safer. If power goes (which it can) would open the curtains
and use the kero heater. Last winter I had the thermostat at 64. I am
disabled - 69 - and having increasing problems with mobility and keeping
warm.

Pay about $4000 a year for propane - heat and cooking only. Hot water
heater is electric - new at the same time as the furnace - and has only
raised my electric bill about $10 a month - so far. I expect propane will
be much, much more costly this next heating season.

Suggestions - ideas. I live in northern New York state.

JonquilJan

Learn something new every day
As long as you are learning, you are living
When you stop learning, you start dying

As far as heat loss, if you can't do it your self, hire someone that can give
your homes heat loss with thermal imaging and drafting, etc.

Insulating is something I basically constantly do, every year figuring out
what to do next. You didn't mention whats on the outside, wood, shingle,
siding, brick ?

Forgot to ask if you have a basement.

Yes, electric can be cheaper than kerosene by a mile.
I think the oil filled ones are safest. Fans and radiant heaters have more fire problems.


greg

In article ,
says...
krw wrote:

Any energy you put into latent heat will come back later.

Latent heat, as in evaporation?

With out without a phase change (though there wouldn't be one in a
hydronic system). As long as it's a closed system the heat comes
back.

As long as you don't get condensation mold shouldn't be an issue.

To avoid mold, keep the RH below 60%.

You have to avoid anything in the room below the dew point too.
Windows and frames often "sweat".

--
Keith

In article ,
says...
In article , Ron Peterson wrote:
On Jul 2, 8:15=A0am, "Bill" wrote:
It seems heating oil prices for next winter are going through the roof!

Convert to natural gas. It's cheaper, cleaner, and the utility can't
cut you off.


Some people can't get gas except propane. Geothermal heat pump is the way
to go. I wish I had one. If I had more info I might have tried to install one myself.

Rather pricey installation costs though. Unless you have something
bigger than a shovel, it's a tough DIY. ;-)

I had oil for one season. That cost me about $1000 for the winter. I save a little
since I had a gas line installed and use natural gas. New line, furnace, air, hot water
heater for about $5500. My electric is cheap. Just wish I had the geopump.

In Vermont we used to go through about 225 gallons every three
weeks. We switched to natural gas about ten years ago even though
oil was a bit cheaper at the time. It cost me $25 plus $12/month for
a new burner. The gas company even ripped up the yard and replanted
the next spring.

Even though I have electric heat now (NE Ohio), electric heat would
have killed me then. My heating plan is to move further South. ;-)

Man that oil furnace used to pump out 160 degree heat from the vents, or what ever
the overtemp setting was. Two of the cold air returns were blocked by rugs when I moved
in. I also insreased fan speed. That oil furnace was 55 years old and still working. Could
burn type I or II fuel.

Can't they all? Type-1 is kerosene, which is simply more highly
refined #2 fuel oil.

--
Keith

krw wrote:
says...

Any energy you put into latent heat will come back later.

Latent heat, as in evaporation?

With out without a phase change (though there wouldn't be one in a
hydronic system)...

Latent heat requires a phase change.

As long as you don't get condensation mold shouldn't be an issue.

To avoid mold, keep the RH below 60%.

You have to avoid anything in the room below the dew point too.
Windows and frames often "sweat".

At 100 vs 60% RH.

Nick

7 Jul 2008 20:55:41 -0400 from :
krw wrote:
says...
To avoid mold, keep the RH below 60%.

You have to avoid anything in the room below the dew point too.
Windows and frames often "sweat".

At 100 vs 60% RH.

The RH in my home was 35-45% all last winter, but window frames
sweated almost every morning. I don't understand it, either: they're
double-paned. But the inner panes were cold to the touch.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Shikata ga nai...

Stan Brown wrote:
wrote:
krw wrote:
says...
To avoid mold, keep the RH below 60%.

You have to avoid anything in the room below the dew point too.
Windows and frames often "sweat".

At 100 vs 60% RH.

The RH in my home was 35-45% all last winter, but window frames
sweated almost every morning. I don't understand it...

The RH of the room air near the windows was 100%.

Nick

You may be right, but I read this differently than you do. I can't say
that I've seen a house of that era that had vertical plank walls that
was
completely solid. Building styles vary depending on access to materials
but I would be surprised if her walls were solid.


I would. I'd expect they're just like mine (1815 or so). I've got 4x4
studs
12-15" apart, with brick and mortar filling the entire space in between.
Over that is shiplap, then clapboards. Not exactly possible to blow
anything
in.



Mine are solid planks. They are almost 3 inches thick. Can still see the
corner posts in two downstairs rooms - probably from the original 2 room
cabin. There was one home about half a mile from me - where it was tried to
insulate. Once they took off the outer shell, there was a frame of very
large hand hewn (could see the ax marks) beans - filled in with bricks and
mortar between. The house was eventually torn down.

JonquilJan

Learn something new every day
As long as you are learning, you are living
When you stop learning, you start dying

wrote in message
...
"JonquilJan" wrote:

wondering about heating this next winter...

How about solar heat from a commercial plastic film greenhouse
perpendicular
to the east or west side of the house on the south side? For $1K and 3
days
labor you can have a 14'x96' solar hot air collector...

Nick


South side of the house (and a lot of the east and west sides as well) are
heavily shaded. and the solar output in this area is not enough to keep the
small solar garden lamps going. and I don't have $1K or enough to pay for 3
days labor even so.

And natural gas not available. Either propane (which is what I have now)
oil (neighbor) or electric.

Still considering that oil filled heater.

Jan

Learn something new every day
As long as you are learning, you are living
When you stop learning, you start dying

Forgot to ask if you have a basement.

Yes, electric can be cheaper than kerosene by a mile.
I think the oil filled ones are safest. Fans and radiant heaters have more
fire problems.


greg

Half basement - actually about a third basement. Stone walls. room for
furnace, hot water heater and lots of canning jars - some of them full. Can
walk out of the basement on the level - and land drops away another 15+ feet
within 6 feet of the back of the house. (Live on a ridge.)

JonquilJan

Learn something new every day
As long as you are learning, you are living
When you stop learning, you start dying

In article , krw wrote:
In article ,
says...
In article
, Ron
Peterson wrote:
On Jul 2, 8:15=A0am, "Bill" wrote:
It seems heating oil prices for next winter are going through the roof!

Convert to natural gas. It's cheaper, cleaner, and the utility can't
cut you off.


Some people can't get gas except propane. Geothermal heat pump is the way
to go. I wish I had one. If I had more info I might have tried to install one
myself.

Rather pricey installation costs though. Unless you have something
bigger than a shovel, it's a tough DIY. ;-)

I had oil for one season. That cost me about $1000 for the winter. I save a
little
since I had a gas line installed and use natural gas. New line, furnace, air,
hot water
heater for about $5500. My electric is cheap. Just wish I had the geopump.

In Vermont we used to go through about 225 gallons every three
weeks. We switched to natural gas about ten years ago even though
oil was a bit cheaper at the time. It cost me $25 plus $12/month for
a new burner. The gas company even ripped up the yard and replanted
the next spring.

Even though I have electric heat now (NE Ohio), electric heat would
have killed me then. My heating plan is to move further South. ;-)

Man that oil furnace used to pump out 160 degree heat from the vents, or what
ever
the overtemp setting was. Two of the cold air returns were blocked by rugs
when I moved
in. I also insreased fan speed. That oil furnace was 55 years old and still
working. Could
burn type I or II fuel.

Can't they all? Type-1 is kerosene, which is simply more highly
refined #2 fuel oil.

I don't think so. Kerosene is thinner. I forgot the explanation on the pump why it could use both fuels.
When I moved in the house the two tanks were half full. I only added and extra 150 gallons for
the rest of the winter. Sure glad to get rid of the stink and noise. Like a jet engine starting
up rumbling the house. And, I crossed my fingers all winter wondering if that 55 year old thing would keep running.
For years my brother would buy oil in the summer when it was cheaper. Now he has some for back up, and just uses electric.
About 4500 watts for the whole house. Says its cheaper.

greg

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:50:07 -0400, "JonquilJan"
wrote:

There was one home about half a mile from me - where it was tried to
insulate. Once they took off the outer shell, there was a frame of very
large hand hewn (could see the ax marks) beans - filled in with bricks
and
mortar between.

Everything in my house was hand hewn. The home inspector who did the report
before I bought the place thought the joists weren't real wood because they
were "misshapen and just way too big" (his words). When I pointed out that
the house was nearly 200 years old, he then assumed that the wood would be
rotten. He was extremely surprised that everything in the house was just
fine. He commented that the house was "better built than anything they're
making now". Well, yeah, since my house was built to last, not to current
"code". 24" on center. Are they crazy? Everything in my house is 12-15" on
center, and 4x4, not 2x4. Hardwood floors over diagonally laid tongue and
groove subfloor over wide plank pine. An elephant could jump up and down on
my floors and you'd never feel it. I would never live in a "new" house.

On Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:50:07 -0400, "JonquilJan"
wrote:

There was one home about half a mile from me - where it was tried to
insulate. Once they took off the outer shell, there was a frame of very
large hand hewn (could see the ax marks) beans - filled in with bricks and
mortar between.

Are you trying to make my day? :-) Chickpea

JonquilJan wrote:
You may be right, but I read this differently than you do. I can't say
that I've seen a house of that era that had vertical plank walls that
was
completely solid. Building styles vary depending on access to materials
but I would be surprised if her walls were solid.

I would. I'd expect they're just like mine (1815 or so). I've got 4x4
studs
12-15" apart, with brick and mortar filling the entire space in between.
Over that is shiplap, then clapboards. Not exactly possible to blow
anything
in.



Mine are solid planks. They are almost 3 inches thick. Can still see the
corner posts in two downstairs rooms - probably from the original 2 room
cabin. There was one home about half a mile from me - where it was tried to
insulate. Once they took off the outer shell, there was a frame of very
large hand hewn (could see the ax marks) beans - filled in with bricks and
mortar between.


It would appear that filling in the wall cavities with bricks and mortar
was common. Now that is a very sold sound proof wall.

There's very little where I live that is that old (Sherman took care of
that!) The little I see of that age are mostly rural homes that the park
service has saved. A very different type of construction and rarely with
any interior finish.

It's always interesting to learn something new!

Jeff


The house was eventually torn down.

JonquilJan

Learn something new every day
As long as you are learning, you are living
When you stop learning, you start dying

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:50:07 -0400, "JonquilJan"
wrote:

There was one home about half a mile from me - where it was tried to
insulate. Once they took off the outer shell, there was a frame of very
large hand hewn (could see the ax marks) beans - filled in with bricks
and
mortar between.

Are you trying to make my day? :-) Chickpea

Why not!! grin

Surprising what this old area has.

Jan

Learn something new every day
As long as you are learning, you are living
When you stop learning, you start dying

h wrote in message ...

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:50:07 -0400, "JonquilJan"
wrote:

There was one home about half a mile from me - where it was tried to
insulate. Once they took off the outer shell, there was a frame of very
large hand hewn (could see the ax marks) beans - filled in with bricks
and
mortar between.

Everything in my house was hand hewn. The home inspector who did the
report
before I bought the place thought the joists weren't real wood because
they
were "misshapen and just way too big" (his words). When I pointed out that
the house was nearly 200 years old, he then assumed that the wood would be
rotten. He was extremely surprised that everything in the house was just
fine. He commented that the house was "better built than anything they're
making now". Well, yeah, since my house was built to last, not to current
"code". 24" on center. Are they crazy? Everything in my house is 12-15" on
center, and 4x4, not 2x4. Hardwood floors over diagonally laid tongue and
groove subfloor over wide plank pine. An elephant could jump up and down
on
my floors and you'd never feel it. I would never live in a "new" house.



The bigest bean in the 'garage' addition is 24 " square - and the ax marks
are on it - and it is wooden pegged as well. But the house itself was
apparently one for farm hands originally. Have seen a picture from 1903 -
hause basically the same - except 'garage' doors were on the north side
instead of the east side. Looking in the area later - could see where they
were originally framed.

JonquilJan

Learn something new every day
As long as you are learning, you are living
When you stop learning, you start dying

In article ,
says...

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:50:07 -0400, "JonquilJan"
wrote:

There was one home about half a mile from me - where it was tried to
insulate. Once they took off the outer shell, there was a frame of very
large hand hewn (could see the ax marks) beans - filled in with bricks
and
mortar between.

Everything in my house was hand hewn. The home inspector who did the report
before I bought the place thought the joists weren't real wood because they
were "misshapen and just way too big" (his words). When I pointed out that
the house was nearly 200 years old, he then assumed that the wood would be
rotten. He was extremely surprised that everything in the house was just
fine. He commented that the house was "better built than anything they're
making now". Well, yeah, since my house was built to last, not to current
"code". 24" on center. Are they crazy? Everything in my house is 12-15" on
center, and 4x4, not 2x4. Hardwood floors over diagonally laid tongue and
groove subfloor over wide plank pine. An elephant could jump up and down on
my floors and you'd never feel it. I would never live in a "new" house.

I would bet that a "properly built" house today will use a lot less
heat than yours. 2x6s 24" on center construction is certainly
better than 2x4s on 16" centers, and even somewhat better than 2x6s
16" on center. Wood is a pretty poor insulator.

--
Keith

On Jul 9, 8:59*am, "h" wrote:
...He commented that the house was "better built than anything they're
making now". Well, yeah, since my house was built to last, not to current
"code". 24" on center. Are they crazy? Everything in my house is 12-15" on
center, and 4x4, not 2x4. Hardwood floors over diagonally laid tongue and
groove subfloor over wide plank pine. An elephant could jump up and down on
my floors and you'd never feel it. I would never live in a "new" house.

Better built except for the whole drafty thing, poor insulation,
usually piecemal and outdated electrical and plumbing, and etc.

In article ,
says...
In article , krw wrote:
In article ,
says...
In article
, Ron
Peterson wrote:
On Jul 2, 8:15=A0am, "Bill" wrote:
It seems heating oil prices for next winter are going through the roof!

Convert to natural gas. It's cheaper, cleaner, and the utility can't
cut you off.


Some people can't get gas except propane. Geothermal heat pump is the way
to go. I wish I had one. If I had more info I might have tried to install one
myself.

Rather pricey installation costs though. Unless you have something
bigger than a shovel, it's a tough DIY. ;-)

I had oil for one season. That cost me about $1000 for the winter. I save a
little
since I had a gas line installed and use natural gas. New line, furnace, air,
hot water
heater for about $5500. My electric is cheap. Just wish I had the geopump.

In Vermont we used to go through about 225 gallons every three
weeks. We switched to natural gas about ten years ago even though
oil was a bit cheaper at the time. It cost me $25 plus $12/month for
a new burner. The gas company even ripped up the yard and replanted
the next spring.

Even though I have electric heat now (NE Ohio), electric heat would
have killed me then. My heating plan is to move further South. ;-)

Man that oil furnace used to pump out 160 degree heat from the vents, or what
ever
the overtemp setting was. Two of the cold air returns were blocked by rugs
when I moved
in. I also insreased fan speed. That oil furnace was 55 years old and still
working. Could
burn type I or II fuel.

Can't they all? Type-1 is kerosene, which is simply more highly
refined #2 fuel oil.

I don't think so. Kerosene is thinner.

No, it's really not. Kerosene *IS* #1 (as in K-1 Kerosene). It is
the same stuff as #2 fuel oil with the paraffin removed. Kerosene
is used in place of #2 if there is a chance of freezing temperatures
around the tank and lines (e.g. mobile homes). Every oil furnace
I've ever seen can use either. In fact Kerosene is often used to
fie people over if they run out of #2.

I forgot the explanation on the pump why it could use both fuels.
When I moved in the house the two tanks were half full. I only added and extra 150 gallons for
the rest of the winter. Sure glad to get rid of the stink and noise. Like a jet engine starting
up rumbling the house. And, I crossed my fingers all winter wondering if that 55 year old thing would keep running.
For years my brother would buy oil in the summer when it was cheaper. Now he has some for back up, and just uses electric.
About 4500 watts for the whole house. Says its cheaper.

4500 watts? That's 3200kWh/month or about $300-$400 in most places.

--
Keith

In article , krw wrote:
In article ,
says...

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:50:07 -0400, "JonquilJan"
wrote:

There was one home about half a mile from me - where it was tried to
insulate. Once they took off the outer shell, there was a frame of very
large hand hewn (could see the ax marks) beans - filled in with bricks
and
mortar between.

Everything in my house was hand hewn. The home inspector who did the report
before I bought the place thought the joists weren't real wood because they
were "misshapen and just way too big" (his words). When I pointed out that
the house was nearly 200 years old, he then assumed that the wood would be
rotten. He was extremely surprised that everything in the house was just
fine. He commented that the house was "better built than anything they're
making now". Well, yeah, since my house was built to last, not to current
"code". 24" on center. Are they crazy? Everything in my house is 12-15" on
center, and 4x4, not 2x4. Hardwood floors over diagonally laid tongue and
groove subfloor over wide plank pine. An elephant could jump up and down on
my floors and you'd never feel it. I would never live in a "new" house.

I would bet that a "properly built" house today will use a lot less
heat than yours. 2x6s 24" on center construction is certainly
better than 2x4s on 16" centers, and even somewhat better than 2x6s
16" on center. Wood is a pretty poor insulator.


1 inch of dry wood = R1.

2 inches = R2

In article ,
says...
In article , krw wrote:
In article ,
says...

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:50:07 -0400, "JonquilJan"
wrote:

There was one home about half a mile from me - where it was tried to
insulate. Once they took off the outer shell, there was a frame of very
large hand hewn (could see the ax marks) beans - filled in with bricks
and
mortar between.

Everything in my house was hand hewn. The home inspector who did the report
before I bought the place thought the joists weren't real wood because they
were "misshapen and just way too big" (his words). When I pointed out that
the house was nearly 200 years old, he then assumed that the wood would be
rotten. He was extremely surprised that everything in the house was just
fine. He commented that the house was "better built than anything they're
making now". Well, yeah, since my house was built to last, not to current
"code". 24" on center. Are they crazy? Everything in my house is 12-15" on
center, and 4x4, not 2x4. Hardwood floors over diagonally laid tongue and
groove subfloor over wide plank pine. An elephant could jump up and down on
my floors and you'd never feel it. I would never live in a "new" house.

I would bet that a "properly built" house today will use a lot less
heat than yours. 2x6s 24" on center construction is certainly
better than 2x4s on 16" centers, and even somewhat better than 2x6s
16" on center. Wood is a pretty poor insulator.


1 inch of dry wood = R1.

Yes, pretty damned poor.

2 inches = R2

Rather obvious.

--
Keith

In article , krw wrote:
In article ,
says...
In article , krw
wrote:
In article ,
says...

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:50:07 -0400, "JonquilJan"
wrote:

There was one home about half a mile from me - where it was tried to
insulate. Once they took off the outer shell, there was a frame of very
large hand hewn (could see the ax marks) beans - filled in with bricks
and
mortar between.

Everything in my house was hand hewn. The home inspector who did the
report
before I bought the place thought the joists weren't real wood because
they
were "misshapen and just way too big" (his words). When I pointed out that

the house was nearly 200 years old, he then assumed that the wood would be

rotten. He was extremely surprised that everything in the house was just
fine. He commented that the house was "better built than anything they're
making now". Well, yeah, since my house was built to last, not to current
"code". 24" on center. Are they crazy? Everything in my house is 12-15" on

center, and 4x4, not 2x4. Hardwood floors over diagonally laid tongue and
groove subfloor over wide plank pine. An elephant could jump up and down
on
my floors and you'd never feel it. I would never live in a "new" house.

I would bet that a "properly built" house today will use a lot less
heat than yours. 2x6s 24" on center construction is certainly
better than 2x4s on 16" centers, and even somewhat better than 2x6s
16" on center. Wood is a pretty poor insulator.


1 inch of dry wood = R1.

Yes, pretty damned poor.

2 inches = R2

Rather obvious.

Put a reflective surface on that and you can add 1.5. Sometimes a reflective
surface can be much more than R 1.5 depending if there are really hot
areas involved, or high differentials.

greg

In article , (GregS) wrote:
In article , krw
wrote:
In article ,
says...
In article , krw
wrote:
In article ,
says...

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:50:07 -0400, "JonquilJan"
wrote:

There was one home about half a mile from me - where it was tried to
insulate. Once they took off the outer shell, there was a frame of
very
large hand hewn (could see the ax marks) beans - filled in with bricks

and
mortar between.

Everything in my house was hand hewn. The home inspector who did the
report
before I bought the place thought the joists weren't real wood because
they
were "misshapen and just way too big" (his words). When I pointed out
that

the house was nearly 200 years old, he then assumed that the wood would
be

rotten. He was extremely surprised that everything in the house was just
fine. He commented that the house was "better built than anything they're

making now". Well, yeah, since my house was built to last, not to current

"code". 24" on center. Are they crazy? Everything in my house is 12-15"
on

center, and 4x4, not 2x4. Hardwood floors over diagonally laid tongue and

groove subfloor over wide plank pine. An elephant could jump up and down
on
my floors and you'd never feel it. I would never live in a "new" house.

I would bet that a "properly built" house today will use a lot less
heat than yours. 2x6s 24" on center construction is certainly
better than 2x4s on 16" centers, and even somewhat better than 2x6s
16" on center. Wood is a pretty poor insulator.


1 inch of dry wood = R1.

Yes, pretty damned poor.

2 inches = R2

Rather obvious.

Put a reflective surface on that and you can add 1.5. Sometimes a reflective
surface can be much more than R 1.5 depending if there are really hot
areas involved, or high differentials.

I'll give an example where a reflective barrier works best. i had bare
rafters in the garage, and as soon as the sun hit the roof you could
feel all that heat radiating down. i put up preforated reflective foil and now
you done' feel that heat, and I can go in the garage and work.

greg

In article ,
says...
In article , krw wrote:
In article ,
says...
In article , krw
wrote:
In article ,
says...

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:50:07 -0400, "JonquilJan"
wrote:

There was one home about half a mile from me - where it was tried to
insulate. Once they took off the outer shell, there was a frame of very
large hand hewn (could see the ax marks) beans - filled in with bricks
and
mortar between.

Everything in my house was hand hewn. The home inspector who did the
report
before I bought the place thought the joists weren't real wood because
they
were "misshapen and just way too big" (his words). When I pointed out that

the house was nearly 200 years old, he then assumed that the wood would be

rotten. He was extremely surprised that everything in the house was just
fine. He commented that the house was "better built than anything they're
making now". Well, yeah, since my house was built to last, not to current
"code". 24" on center. Are they crazy? Everything in my house is 12-15" on

center, and 4x4, not 2x4. Hardwood floors over diagonally laid tongue and
groove subfloor over wide plank pine. An elephant could jump up and down
on
my floors and you'd never feel it. I would never live in a "new" house.

I would bet that a "properly built" house today will use a lot less
heat than yours. 2x6s 24" on center construction is certainly
better than 2x4s on 16" centers, and even somewhat better than 2x6s
16" on center. Wood is a pretty poor insulator.


1 inch of dry wood = R1.

Yes, pretty damned poor.

2 inches = R2

Rather obvious.

Put a reflective surface on that and you can add 1.5. Sometimes a reflective
surface can be much more than R 1.5 depending if there are really hot
areas involved, or high differentials.

Not that it has anything to do with the issue at hand, but this is
simply wrong. The reflective barrier will not keep heat in; zero R
value. It will *reflect* IR radiation and is useful in areas with
lots of sun, but it adds zero to the R value.

--
Keith

In article , krw wrote:
In article ,
says...
In article , krw
wrote:
In article ,
says...
In article , krw
wrote:
In article ,
says...

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:50:07 -0400, "JonquilJan"
wrote:

There was one home about half a mile from me - where it was tried to
insulate. Once they took off the outer shell, there was a frame of
very
large hand hewn (could see the ax marks) beans - filled in with
bricks
and
mortar between.

Everything in my house was hand hewn. The home inspector who did the
report
before I bought the place thought the joists weren't real wood because
they
were "misshapen and just way too big" (his words). When I pointed out
that

the house was nearly 200 years old, he then assumed that the wood would
be

rotten. He was extremely surprised that everything in the house was
just
fine. He commented that the house was "better built than anything
they're
making now". Well, yeah, since my house was built to last, not to
current
"code". 24" on center. Are they crazy? Everything in my house is 12-15"
on

center, and 4x4, not 2x4. Hardwood floors over diagonally laid tongue
and
groove subfloor over wide plank pine. An elephant could jump up and
down
on
my floors and you'd never feel it. I would never live in a "new" house.


I would bet that a "properly built" house today will use a lot less
heat than yours. 2x6s 24" on center construction is certainly
better than 2x4s on 16" centers, and even somewhat better than 2x6s
16" on center. Wood is a pretty poor insulator.


1 inch of dry wood = R1.

Yes, pretty damned poor.

2 inches = R2

Rather obvious.

Put a reflective surface on that and you can add 1.5. Sometimes a reflective
surface can be much more than R 1.5 depending if there are really hot
areas involved, or high differentials.

Not that it has anything to do with the issue at hand, but this is
simply wrong. The reflective barrier will not keep heat in; zero R
value. It will *reflect* IR radiation and is useful in areas with
lots of sun, but it adds zero to the R value.


Tell that to the people who label their foam products at the home stores.
The reflective factor is added to the R value.
The reflective surface also inhibits radiation as well as reflecting radiation.

greg

In article , (GregS) wrote:
In article , krw
wrote:
In article ,
says...
In article , krw
wrote:
In article ,
says...
In article , krw
wrote:
In article ,
says...

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:50:07 -0400, "JonquilJan"
wrote:

There was one home about half a mile from me - where it was tried to
insulate. Once they took off the outer shell, there was a frame of
very
large hand hewn (could see the ax marks) beans - filled in with
bricks
and
mortar between.

Everything in my house was hand hewn. The home inspector who did the
report
before I bought the place thought the joists weren't real wood because
they
were "misshapen and just way too big" (his words). When I pointed out
that

the house was nearly 200 years old, he then assumed that the wood
would
be

rotten. He was extremely surprised that everything in the house was
just
fine. He commented that the house was "better built than anything
they're
making now". Well, yeah, since my house was built to last, not to
current
"code". 24" on center. Are they crazy? Everything in my house is
12-15"
on

center, and 4x4, not 2x4. Hardwood floors over diagonally laid tongue
and
groove subfloor over wide plank pine. An elephant could jump up and
down
on
my floors and you'd never feel it. I would never live in a "new"
house.


I would bet that a "properly built" house today will use a lot less
heat than yours. 2x6s 24" on center construction is certainly
better than 2x4s on 16" centers, and even somewhat better than 2x6s
16" on center. Wood is a pretty poor insulator.


1 inch of dry wood = R1.

Yes, pretty damned poor.

2 inches = R2

Rather obvious.

Put a reflective surface on that and you can add 1.5. Sometimes a reflective
surface can be much more than R 1.5 depending if there are really hot
areas involved, or high differentials.

Not that it has anything to do with the issue at hand, but this is
simply wrong. The reflective barrier will not keep heat in; zero R
value. It will *reflect* IR radiation and is useful in areas with
lots of sun, but it adds zero to the R value.


Tell that to the people who label their foam products at the home stores.
The reflective factor is added to the R value.
The reflective surface also inhibits radiation as well as reflecting radiation.

A reflective surface needs open space for it to reflect. If there is no space
its worthless. On a building here, they specified foil backed drywall
for RF interference. This is also mold proof, and I don't know why its not
usually seen at the home buiding stores, and of course can add some
R value if used in that way.

greg

krw wrote:

... The reflective barrier will not keep heat in; zero R value.
It will *reflect* IR radiation and is useful in areas with
lots of sun, but it adds zero to the R value.

Wrong.

Here's one way to estimate the R-value of a radiant barrier based on the air
gap and the emissivities and surface temps and the direction of heatflow from
http://www.reflectixinc.com/pdf/RIMA_Handbook.pdf

10 DIM HC(18,6)
20 DATA 0.359,0.184,0.126,0.097,0.080,0.068
30 DATA 0.361,0.187,0.129,0.100,0.082,0.072
40 DATA 0.363,0.189,0.131,0.101,0.085,0.075
50 DATA 0.364,0.190,0.132,0.103,0.087,0.078
60 DATA 0.365,0.191,0.133,0.105,0.090,0.081
70 DATA 0.366,0.192,0.134,0.106,0.092,0.082
80 DATA 0.360,0.204,0.169,0.179,0.185,0.189
90 DATA 0.366,0.267,0.223,0.233,0.238,0.241
100 DATA 0.373,0.247,0.261,0.271,0.275,0.276
110 DATA 0.380,0.270,0.292,0.301,0.303,0.303
120 DATA 0.387,0.296,0.317,0.325,0.327,0.326
130 DATA 0.394,0.319,0.339,0.347,0.347,0.345
140 DATA 0.381,0.312,0.295,0.284,0.275,0.268
150 DATA 0.429,0.381,0.360,0.346,0.336,0.328
160 DATA 0.472,0.428,0.405,0.389,0.377,0.368
170 DATA 0.511,0.465,0.440,0.423,0.410,0.400
180 DATA 0.545,0.496,0.469,0.451,0.437,0.426
190 DATA 0.574,0.523,0.494,0.475,0.460,0.449
200 FOR I=1 TO 18'read data table
210 FOR J=1 TO 6
220 READ HC(I,J)
230 NEXT:NEXT
240 T1=105'temperature of surface 1 (F)
250 E1=.03'emissivity of surface 1
260 T2=75'temperature of surface 2 (F)
270 E2=.8'emissivity of surface 2
280 L=2'air gap (valid range: 0.5-3")
290 LI=INT(2*L+.5)'length table index
300 HF=0'heatflow 0-down,1-sideways,2-up
310 E=1/(1/E1+1/E2-1)'effective emittance
320 TM=(T1+T2)/2'mean temp (F)
330 DT=ABS(T1-T2)'temp diff (valid range: 5-30 F)
340 DTI=INT(DT/5+.5+6*HF)'temp diff table index
350 HR=.00686*((TM+459.7)/100)^3'radiant conductance
360 R=1/(E*HR+HC(DTI,LI))'US R-value (ft^2-F-h/Btu)
370 PRINT T1,E1,T2,E2
380 PRINT L,HF,R

T1 (F) E1 T2 (F) E2

105 .03 75 .8

gap heatflow US R-value

2" 0 (down) 7.146456

With more than one space in series (eg double-foil foamboard spaced away
from a basement wall), we can't just add R-values. We only know the overall
temp diff, so we have to iterate to find a solution. Estimating the system
R-value of a radiant barrier as installed is fairly complicated, so it's no
surprise that the FTC prohibits makers from advertising R-values for radiant
barriers to avoid confusing the public.

Nick

GregS wrote:

Tell that to the people who label their foam products at the home stores.
The reflective factor is added to the R value.

No, it is not. Double-foil foamboard labeled "R7.2" is closer to R11 if
it has air gaps on both sides.

Nick

In article ,
says...
krw wrote:

... The reflective barrier will not keep heat in; zero R value.
It will *reflect* IR radiation and is useful in areas with
lots of sun, but it adds zero to the R value.

Wrong.

Not wrong. Foil does nothing to "resist" the conduction of heat
therefor has no "R" value. It will REFLECT radiated heat, but do
ZERO for conducted heat.

Here's one way to estimate the R-value of a radiant barrier based on the air
gap and the emissivities and surface temps and the direction of heatflow from
http://www.reflectixinc.com/pdf/RIMA_Handbook.pdf

Estimate. Whoopie.

10 DIM HC(18,6)
20 DATA 0.359,0.184,0.126,0.097,0.080,0.068
30 DATA 0.361,0.187,0.129,0.100,0.082,0.072
40 DATA 0.363,0.189,0.131,0.101,0.085,0.075
50 DATA 0.364,0.190,0.132,0.103,0.087,0.078
60 DATA 0.365,0.191,0.133,0.105,0.090,0.081
70 DATA 0.366,0.192,0.134,0.106,0.092,0.082
80 DATA 0.360,0.204,0.169,0.179,0.185,0.189
90 DATA 0.366,0.267,0.223,0.233,0.238,0.241
100 DATA 0.373,0.247,0.261,0.271,0.275,0.276
110 DATA 0.380,0.270,0.292,0.301,0.303,0.303
120 DATA 0.387,0.296,0.317,0.325,0.327,0.326
130 DATA 0.394,0.319,0.339,0.347,0.347,0.345
140 DATA 0.381,0.312,0.295,0.284,0.275,0.268
150 DATA 0.429,0.381,0.360,0.346,0.336,0.328
160 DATA 0.472,0.428,0.405,0.389,0.377,0.368
170 DATA 0.511,0.465,0.440,0.423,0.410,0.400
180 DATA 0.545,0.496,0.469,0.451,0.437,0.426
190 DATA 0.574,0.523,0.494,0.475,0.460,0.449
200 FOR I=1 TO 18'read data table
210 FOR J=1 TO 6
220 READ HC(I,J)
230 NEXT:NEXT
240 T1=105'temperature of surface 1 (F)
250 E1=.03'emissivity of surface 1
260 T2=75'temperature of surface 2 (F)
270 E2=.8'emissivity of surface 2
280 L=2'air gap (valid range: 0.5-3")
290 LI=INT(2*L+.5)'length table index
300 HF=0'heatflow 0-down,1-sideways,2-up
310 E=1/(1/E1+1/E2-1)'effective emittance
320 TM=(T1+T2)/2'mean temp (F)
330 DT=ABS(T1-T2)'temp diff (valid range: 5-30 F)
340 DTI=INT(DT/5+.5+6*HF)'temp diff table index
350 HR=.00686*((TM+459.7)/100)^3'radiant conductance
360 R=1/(E*HR+HC(DTI,LI))'US R-value (ft^2-F-h/Btu)
370 PRINT T1,E1,T2,E2
380 PRINT L,HF,R

T1 (F) E1 T2 (F) E2

105 .03 75 .8

gap heatflow US R-value

2" 0 (down) 7.146456

With more than one space in series (eg double-foil foamboard spaced away
from a basement wall), we can't just add R-values. We only know the overall
temp diff, so we have to iterate to find a solution. Estimating the system
R-value of a radiant barrier as installed is fairly complicated, so it's no
surprise that the FTC prohibits makers from advertising R-values for radiant
barriers to avoid confusing the public.

Weasel words that say foil has no 'R' value.

--
Keith

krw wrote:

... The reflective barrier will not keep heat in; zero R value.
It will *reflect* IR radiation and is useful in areas with
lots of sun, but it adds zero to the R value.

Wrong.

Not wrong. Foil does nothing to "resist" the conduction of heat
therefor has no "R" value. It will REFLECT radiated heat, but do
ZERO for conducted heat.

With an air gap, the foil adds a real R-value.

Nick

In article ,
says...
krw wrote:

... The reflective barrier will not keep heat in; zero R value.
It will *reflect* IR radiation and is useful in areas with
lots of sun, but it adds zero to the R value.

Wrong.

Not wrong. Foil does nothing to "resist" the conduction of heat
therefor has no "R" value. It will REFLECT radiated heat, but do
ZERO for conducted heat.

With an air gap, the foil adds a real R-value.

Nonsense. The air gap adds R-value. The foil adds nothing to the
heat conduction. Foils is METAL, which is a CONDUCTOR.

--
Keith

Sat, 12 Jul 2008 09:32:50 -0400 from krw :
In article ,
says...
With an air gap, the foil adds a real R-value.

Nonsense. The air gap adds R-value. The foil adds nothing to the
heat conduction. Foils is METAL, which is a CONDUCTOR.

Is it possible that it adds indirectly, by serving as a vapor barrier
so that the outward space stays drier and this is a better insulator?

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Shikata ga nai...

krw wrote:

The air gap adds R-value. The foil adds nothing to the
heat conduction. Foils is METAL, which is a CONDUCTOR.

Foils ARE metal... :-)

Nick

Stan Brown wrote:

Is it possible that it adds indirectly, by serving as a vapor barrier
so that the outward space stays drier and this is a better insulator?

No. The foil lowers emissivity and radiation. That's basic physics.

Nick

In article ,
says...
Sat, 12 Jul 2008 09:32:50 -0400 from krw :
In article ,
says...
With an air gap, the foil adds a real R-value.

Nonsense. The air gap adds R-value. The foil adds nothing to the
heat conduction. Foils is METAL, which is a CONDUCTOR.

Is it possible that it adds indirectly, by serving as a vapor barrier
so that the outward space stays drier and this is a better insulator?

If you read back, I said that foild will help by REFLECTING radiated
heat. It doesn't do squat for the 'R' value, however, because that
is a measure of CONDUCTED heat.


--
Keith

In article ,
says...
krw wrote:

The air gap adds R-value. The foil adds nothing to the
heat conduction. Foils is METAL, which is a CONDUCTOR.

Foils ARE metal... :-)

Foil is too metal. ;-)

--
Keith

krw wrote:

If you read back, I said that foild will help by REFLECTING radiated
heat. It doesn't do squat for the 'R' value, however, because that
is a measure of CONDUCTED heat.

No. R-values are measured, and they include all forms of heatflow.

Nick

In article ,
says...
krw wrote:

If you read back, I said that foild will help by REFLECTING radiated
heat. It doesn't do squat for the 'R' value, however, because that
is a measure of CONDUCTED heat.

No. R-values are measured, and they include all forms of heatflow.

Your definition of "R-value" is meaningless. The 'R' varies by
application, which makes it a meaningless number.

--
Keith