[Sorry if this isn't exactly the right group... but the legal and real
estate groups didn't have much traffic.]

I'm looking at buying 10 acres of undeveloped brush country in the
southwestern USA for $50,000, a triangular-shaped parcel that is
contiguous with 13 acres I already own. The seller is a local developer
who means to put in a subdivision, and I want a buffer between my
property and the new development. This developer has a local reputation
of somewhat unscrupulous and the few dealings I've had with him have
not disabused me of that notion. The first contract he sent me called
for $10,000 non-refundable earnest money that he would be permitted to
cash before closing, a 15-foot utility easement around the PERIMETER
(huh?)of the property, and numerous deed restrictions not to be
revealed until the time of closing.

My lawyer (who seems to be intimidated by this man) and I made some
changes to the contract, first refusing any utility easement at all.
The seller has over 700 acres next to the 50 he is selling me, and he
can jolly well put his utilities on them.

My lawyer also got him down to $5,000 earnest money, but he still wants
it to be non-refundable. I told him I would put down $1,000 if he
insisted it be non-refundable, but if he wanted $5K, it would have to
be refundable if the deal doesn't go through by reason of some act of
God. Closing is Sept 16 (today is August 22), and I plan to pay cash.

The seller gave a little on the utility easement. Now he wants a
15-foot wide strip to go across my 50 acres from the utility pole
currently existing next to my house, instead of pulling his utilities
from the main public road. I'm not even sure this is legal.

He has told me these items are non-negotiable and I don't know if my
heebie-jeebies about the earnest money and the easement are reasonable
or not. I do know I don't like being bullied.

I first approached him about this deal back in March and he put me off
for months with "we're not ready to do anything with that land yet." I
think I established that I'm serious about buying. Suddenly he's ready
to sell and wants my decision by noon tomorrow.

Do his requirements sound reasonable? (Thanks.)

wrote:
I first approached him about this deal back in March and he put me off
for months with "we're not ready to do anything with that land yet." I
think I established that I'm serious about buying. Suddenly he's ready
to sell and wants my decision by noon tomorrow.

Do his requirements sound reasonable? (Thanks.)


No, tell him politely to go **** himself. Car dealers use these tactics all the
time. If your lawyer is intimidated by this guy, find yourself a pit bull.
Every town has one (or more).

Be prepared to walk away even though you want the property. He's depending on
your desire overriding your common sense. Personally, I would run from this
deal and bulldoze a huge berm on the edge of my property. Plant trees. Out of
sight; out of mind.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

In article .com,
wrote:

I do know I don't like being bullied.

Well, you're being bullied.

I'd make a final offer. Everything refundable. No easement. Take it or
leave it, with a deadline of seven days hence.

Then forget about the deal adn don't lose sleep. You either get what
you want, or as suggested by Mortimer Schnerd bulldoze a berm and plant
trees.

Thank you-- both of you... I truly didn't know if I was overreacting or
not. My late husband and I bought our home directly from the owners
with no realtor, and subsequently bought three other pieces of
property, one of them more than 50 acres, and NEVER had any problems
like this. We were used to dealing with honest NORMAL people. I guess
I've been pretty sheltered. Y'all have restored my sanity. Hugs to
Mortimer and Dave.

If anyone else wants to pile on, you get hugs, too!

He is playing hardball. He seems to want to still "own" the property after
selling it to you via the easement and deed restrictions. Surprised he
doesn't want to keep mineral rights as well.

If he does not want to disclose the deed restrictions until closing, then
you may not be able to read them, ask your lawyer about them, and fully
understand them. It is a trap!

Play hardball back. He who has the money rules. You have the money, so set
*your* terms or no deal. No easements, no deed restrictions, everything
disclosed long before closing.

Make an offer which allows you to own the property without restrictions.
Tell him to take it or leave it. Tell him it is non-negotiable. PERIOD!

If he comes back with a higher price, then may want to consider that, but
make him think you are not going to budge an inch. People like this will say
something is non-negotiable, but they *will* back down if you hold firm.

Sometimes they are using a strategy that the best defense is a good offense.
He is throwing a lot of demands at you possibly using these as a means to
get more money out of you or whatever. Maybe get more money out of you at a
later time to release you from the easement or deed restrictions (if that is
possible). Or he may be trying to just take you for $5K by placing deed
restrictions on the property which you would never go for.

Stick to your guns! Do this your way or no way. Don't return his calls right
away, take your sweet time.


wrote in message
[Sorry if this isn't exactly the right group... but the legal and real
estate groups didn't have much traffic.]

I'm looking at buying 10 acres of undeveloped brush country in the
southwestern USA for $50,000, a triangular-shaped parcel that is
contiguous with 13 acres I already own. The seller is a local developer
who means to put in a subdivision, and I want a buffer between my
property and the new development. This developer has a local reputation
of somewhat unscrupulous and the few dealings I've had with him have
not disabused me of that notion. The first contract he sent me called
for $10,000 non-refundable earnest money that he would be permitted to
cash before closing, a 15-foot utility easement around the PERIMETER
(huh?)of the property, and numerous deed restrictions not to be
revealed until the time of closing.

My lawyer (who seems to be intimidated by this man) and I made some
changes to the contract, first refusing any utility easement at all.
The seller has over 700 acres next to the 50 he is selling me, and he
can jolly well put his utilities on them.

My lawyer also got him down to $5,000 earnest money, but he still wants
it to be non-refundable. I told him I would put down $1,000 if he
insisted it be non-refundable, but if he wanted $5K, it would have to
be refundable if the deal doesn't go through by reason of some act of
God. Closing is Sept 16 (today is August 22), and I plan to pay cash.

The seller gave a little on the utility easement. Now he wants a
15-foot wide strip to go across my 50 acres from the utility pole
currently existing next to my house, instead of pulling his utilities
from the main public road. I'm not even sure this is legal.

He has told me these items are non-negotiable and I don't know if my
heebie-jeebies about the earnest money and the easement are reasonable
or not. I do know I don't like being bullied.

I first approached him about this deal back in March and he put me off
for months with "we're not ready to do anything with that land yet." I
think I established that I'm serious about buying. Suddenly he's ready
to sell and wants my decision by noon tomorrow.

Do his requirements sound reasonable? (Thanks.)

He DOES want to retain the mineral rights-- lol. Thanks, Bill, for your
comments.

The bottom line is NOT that he wants more money-- he does not want to
sell me the property at all, BUT as you point out, he wants the $50K
and still wants to retain all the rights of ownership-- bingo! Right
now he has no other buyers and probably won't for years. He wants to
use MY cash to get his development started.

I saw the list of deed restrictions and they read like I'm building a
home in an exclusive residential subdivision-- size of house, exterior
materials, no manufactured homes, everything but the brand of toilet
paper I have to buy. Bear in mind that right now the whole parcel that
he owns is 700 acres of virgin brushland without one building,
structure, water well, utilities-- NOTHING on it. It has been a hunting
lease or used for some cattle grazing for as long as anyone can
remember.

I emailed him this morning and told him no easement and the earnest
money has to be refundable if the deal does not go through. And if gets
back to me I'll tell him the deed restrictions are not acceptable
either.

I don't want the property all that much. I just don't want a
subdivision outside my bedroom window.

You've been a big help!

Interesting...as I said above, I emailed this guy this morning saying
1) NO easement and 2) the earnest money had to be refundable if the
deal fell through. I assumed the deal was off.

Lo and behold, I come home this evening and find a new contract in the
fax machine. He left in the easement thing (which I just crossed out)
and left in that he could keep the earnest money if I default. I
crossed that out and referred to another paragraph in the contract that
addresses earnest money issues.

I'm going to email him back and tell him I want no deed restrictions,
and I'm also thinking I need to retain the mineral rights, too. (We're
in Texas.)

Am I making sense?

wrote:
I'm going to email him back and tell him I want no deed restrictions,
and I'm also thinking I need to retain the mineral rights, too. (We're
in Texas.)

Am I making sense?



You do to me. Maybe this clown is starting to get the idea that you won't just
roll over for him. Stick to your guns no matter what. If you give in an inch
you're being screwed. This assumes, of course, that your money offer was
reasonable to begin with.

When I buy a car, the dealer doesn't get to tell me on what roads I can drive.
Who does this guy think he is?



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

Thanks, Mortimer! (I always liked you better than Howdy.)

I'm paying $5K per acre for the property.That may sound like a lot
(pardon the pun) to people from other parts of the country, but
undeveloped land around here is cheap. Land on the other side of the
major city I'm near (about 55 miles due north goes for $50K PER ACRE
and up. That is likely to happen here over the next 20 years (when I'll
be 87 and needing to finance the nursing home).

My late husband and I bought two acres contiguous with this land (also
totally undeveloped wild brush country) in 1999 for $1,900 per acre
from a lovely honest, salt-of-the-earth gentleman who owned all 700
acres. He and my H died within the following year.

I contacted the nephew a couple of years later, around 2002 and asked
about buying more of the land and I offered $1,900. I had to write to
him twice before I got a reply, and then it wasn't from him but a
brother-in-law. He gave me the "Heh, heh, Little Lady" routine-- "I
understand you've been writin' some letters (heh, heh), well, isn't
that nice?" He said that since the older gentleman had died the
property went to several family members and they hadn't decided how to
dispose of it. I called him a couple more times over the next year or
two and he kept brushing me off.

Finally I heard by the grapevine (mustang grapes, dontcha know) that "a
developer" had bought the property. The blood ran cold in my veins.
That was in March 2006.

When I first contacted the current seller (hereinafter referred to as D
for developer), he also brushed me off and told me he'd get back to me
when they were ready to do something with that end of the 700 acres. D
implied it would be years down the road. Then (IMHO) he started to see
that I was serious and that I could put my hands on the cash. That was
about a month ago. Now all of a sudden, he's got to have my answer NOW?
I don't think so. What he has done is carved out a long skinny triangle
that runs along my fence line. The point of the triangle is at the
road, and then it widens out as you get away from the road. Since my
house is about 1/4 mile off the road, the shape of the parcel is fine
with me. There is no highway frontage in this parcel because I own the
two acres next to it and already have road frontage. (He's selling the
roadfront lots for $38,000 per acre to anyone dumb enough to pay that
right now-- probably people from Out of Town.)

I don't honestly know what land is going for down the road-- and houses
are popping up like mushrooms around here because the land IS so cheap
and we're about 25 miles of easy driving from a major city. I agreed to
pay $5K per acre, and I don't mind. I think it's on the high side of
fair but not outside the fair zone. I never had a real problem with the
price, and I believe, thanks or no-thanks to D's like him, the property
values are going to go sky-high in the near future.

This will increase my total holdings to 23 acres, and of course it will
be right next to his chichi-poopoo subdivision, and that will be a good
thing.

Thanks for sticking with me, Mort.

wrote in message

I'm going to email him back and tell him I want no deed restrictions,
and I'm also thinking I need to retain the mineral rights, too. (We're
in Texas.)


Hummm... This guy is not so tough after all. And you have the whole internet
on your side. He has no hope whatsoever...

With this guy, I would not want any restrictions/easements and would also
want the mineral rights. Or no deal. Sounds like you have the upper hand and
can set the terms. i.e. He needs the money.

With mineral rights, I think they could come in with drilling or mining
equipment and take over the land. There may be nothing worth anything
underground, but with this guy, I would not give him *anyway* to hold
anything over you after you purchase the property.

Also good to tell him you don't really need the property. He will realize
that the only way he will get the money is to sell on your terms. Hang
tough!

Be very careful with the wording of the contract to be sure you retain all
rights. Also be careful at closing that no additional wording has been added
or anything changed. I would read everything and be sure you understand
everything.

Aye! Aye! Bill.

I can't thank you and Mort enough for your support and advice.

I went into this feeling very powerless, which doesn't make any sense
(unless it's a girl thing), even though I have the money. I guess it
was because I really wanted the property. Once I got okay with losing
it, I started to feel more powerful.

But the thing that helped the most was the advice I got here!

I'll keep y'all posted!

Bill's post made me think this - you do have a lawyer, right?... and he is
advising you on the contract stuff? If not this is necessary, especially
versus this developer guy.
Tomes

wrote in message
ps.com...
Aye! Aye! Bill.

I can't thank you and Mort enough for your support and advice.

I went into this feeling very powerless, which doesn't make any sense
(unless it's a girl thing), even though I have the money. I guess it
was because I really wanted the property. Once I got okay with losing
it, I started to feel more powerful.

But the thing that helped the most was the advice I got here!

I'll keep y'all posted!

I do have a lawyer, but he is not giving me very pointed advice. He's
being IMHO apologetic and conciliatory toward the developer. This is a
small town, maybe he fears retribution if he comes on too strong. Maybe
he's a wuss... it could go either way.

wrote:
I do have a lawyer, but he is not giving me very pointed advice. He's
being IMHO apologetic and conciliatory toward the developer. This is a
small town, maybe he fears retribution if he comes on too strong. Maybe
he's a wuss... it could go either way.


Maybe the developer is his brother in law. Where's that pit bull I asked you to
get?



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

Mort, I've emailed you and attached a picture.

I'm thinking that it might be time for a different lawyer....
Tomes

wrote in message
oups.com...
I do have a lawyer, but he is not giving me very pointed advice. He's
being IMHO apologetic and conciliatory toward the developer. This is a
small town, maybe he fears retribution if he comes on too strong. Maybe
he's a wuss... it could go either way.

wrote in message

I do have a lawyer, but he is not giving me very pointed advice. He's
being IMHO apologetic and conciliatory toward the developer.


Actually that lawyer being such a "good guy" might be a good thing! See the
following about the good guy/bad guy strategy...
http://www.everyonenegotiates.com/ne...dguybadguy.htm


Also the 15 rules of negotiation...
http://www.everyonenegotiates.com/ne...egotiation.htm

wrote:
Mort, I've emailed you and attached a picture.


Check your incoming....




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

"Bill" wrote
Also the 15 rules of negotiation...
http://www.everyonenegotiates.com/ne...egotiation.htm


It's nice to see that one of my personal rules (never accept
the first offer) is listed above. I have always worried a
little about this. OTOH, I think there's a corollary to
this: Always counteroffer; never reject an offer outright.

If the two parties are still way apart at this point, then
ISTM there's little hope, then all can politely withdraw.

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:

No, tell him politely to go **** himself. Car dealers use these tactics all the
time. If your lawyer is intimidated by this guy, find yourself a pit bull.
Every town has one (or more).

Be prepared to walk away even though you want the property. He's depending on
your desire overriding your common sense. Personally, I would run from this
deal and bulldoze a huge berm on the edge of my property. Plant trees. Out of
sight; out of mind.

I pretty much second what Mortimer said, but if you make a berm, make
sure you aren't violating any laws. Altering the natural flow of water
can get you big fines. I understand wanting some space between you and
the developer but be careful. I seriously doubt he can be trusted to
honor a contract, and developers are old hands at getting away with
breaching contracts.

Thanks for that link, Bill. I'm a total neophyte in the negotiating
process. I just always did #10 "Be honest and fair." I didn't know it
was permissible to do anything else.

Thanks for your reply, too, Frip. Regarding the berm--good suggestion,
but this is south Texas: alas, there is NO water around anywhere to
reroute... nothing but brush, cactus, and sand.

I emailed the developer this morning with my list of changes to the
contract, including NO deed restrictions and NO utility easement across
my property, and some other smaller things.

I truly thought I had heard the last of him, but when I got home there
was a fax in the machine with my list of changes annotated. He yielded
on some small things, but is still adamant about the two biggest
things, the deed restrictions (he says we can discuss specific ones),
and the utility easement (which he says he MUST have. I talked to the
local utility that owns the poles and told the guy of the developer's
plan to bring the utilities across open brush land; he said it would be
much better to bring the power from the road, although if I gave
permission, the utility would to it).

I'm ready to get off the negotiating merry-go-round. I want all of my
conditions met. I don't want any more faxes from him offering
concessions. I don't want to give the impression I'm open to
concessions; I'm not.

I'm ready to tell him that my $$ offer is now $40K instead of $50K.
What do y'all think of that?

Y'all have turned me into a pit bull... and I can't thank you enough.
;-)

wrote:
I'm ready to tell him that my $$ offer is now $40K instead of $50K.
What do y'all think of that?


I like it.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

wrote in message

I'm ready to tell him that my $$ offer is now $40K instead of $50K.
What do y'all think of that?


Good idea! Might want to link price reductions in your offer to purchase to
his demands for easement/deed restrictions. An easement can be quite wide
and you can't ever build on it. So you would not really own the easement
land, thus no reason to pay for it! If he wants to have an easement, then he
should reduce the price proportionate to how much land that easement takes
up.

So far as deed restrictions, if this will keep you from building certain
things you might want to build on the property in the future (or someone
else might want to build), then the land might be worth less to you. Link a
reduction in price to his insisting on having deed restrictions. So very low
offer if he wants to keep control of the land. Full price if there are no
restrictions or easements and you get mineral rights. (i.e. You are buying
the property and can do with it what you want.)

Another option is to walk! Say you are no longer interested if he wants an
easement, deed restrictions, and wants to keep mineral rights. Bye! Then the
ball is in his court and he would probably come back with a better offer if
he *really* needs the money.

An option might be a limited time contract between you and him (outside of
the deed) where you agree not to build anything on the property that would
not meet his deed restriction requirements. Say for 5 or 10 years. He may
want to keep you from building anything which would lower the value of his
development next door. But he would only care about this until his
development is sold off. After he is gone, he would care less (unless he
intends to live there himself?) But with this plan, in the long run you
would have full control of the property.

Might want to do a little communicating with him. Find out why he wants
certain things. Tell him your feelings that with the restrictions, etc. you
feel you would be a *sucker* to buy since he would retain control of the
property. That buying land to you means you can do what you want with it.
And resale value in the future would be higher if there were no easements,
no restrictions, and it came with mineral rights. (I have seen people walk
from a home purchase because there was an easement. People don't want to buy
a property with an easement on it if they can buy something similar without
an easement.)

Basically you will pay for what you get. If he wants to give you something
less than full value, then the price should be adjusted accordingly. This
would be fair. (If he is the type I think he is, he will scream like a stuck
pig at any reduction in price!)

Let's find out what is more important to him. His restrictions or cash....
I'll bet he wants the cash!

Bill wrote:
wrote in message

I'm ready to tell him that my $$ offer is now $40K instead of $50K.
What do y'all think of that?


Good idea! Might want to link price reductions in your offer to purchase to
his demands for easement/deed restrictions. An easement can be quite wide
and you can't ever build on it. So you would not really own the easement
land, thus no reason to pay for it! If he wants to have an easement, then he
should reduce the price proportionate to how much land that easement takes
up.

What he wants in the way of an easement is a 15-foot wide strip that
runs behind my current garage and eastward across the new property. The
highway is the hypotenuse of a right triangle that runs from southwest
to northeast, and his 700 acres sit to the east of the property I want
to buy. He can just as easily run down one of the legs of the triangle
to the highway as come from my pole. The thing is my pole is already
there, and he can probably get one of his guys to do a quick and dirty
job. This idea is completely unacceptable at any price.

So far as deed restrictions, if this will keep you from building certain
things you might want to build on the property in the future (or someone
else might want to build), then the land might be worth less to you. Link a
reduction in price to his insisting on having deed restrictions. So very low
offer if he wants to keep control of the land. Full price if there are no
restrictions or easements and you get mineral rights. (i.e. You are buying
the property and can do with it what you want.)

Another option is to walk! Say you are no longer interested if he wants an
easement, deed restrictions, and wants to keep mineral rights. Bye! Then the
ball is in his court and he would probably come back with a better offer if
he *really* needs the money.

An option might be a limited time contract between you and him (outside of
the deed) where you agree not to build anything on the property that would
not meet his deed restriction requirements. Say for 5 or 10 years. He may
want to keep you from building anything which would lower the value of his
development next door. But he would only care about this until his
development is sold off. After he is gone, he would care less (unless he
intends to live there himself?) But with this plan, in the long run you
would have full control of the property.

As for deed restrictions, you're right that once the subdivision is set
up and the lots sold, he won't give a rat's a$$ if I put a pig farm AND
a sewage treatment plant on that land! BUT I might want to immediately
sell off part of the land to help finance the loan. And I don't want
deed restrictions stuck to it like flypaper, because, frankly, the
people I have in mind to sell it to will want to use it as a hunting
lease, and one of the deed restrictions is that there can't be any
dwelling on it smaller than 1,500 square feet. I think it's tidier
overall if there are NO deed restrictions at all. Well... take that
back-- I will agree to one deed restriction, namely, that the property
cannot be used as a garbage/trash dump, even temporarily.


Might want to do a little communicating with him. Find out why he wants
certain things. Tell him your feelings that with the restrictions, etc. you
feel you would be a *sucker* to buy since he would retain control of the
property. That buying land to you means you can do what you want with it.
And resale value in the future would be higher if there were no easements,
no restrictions, and it came with mineral rights. (I have seen people walk
from a home purchase because there was an easement. People don't want to buy
a property with an easement on it if they can buy something similar without
an easement.)

In the beginning I tried "communicating" with him and explaining why I
wanted what I wanted, but I didn't get his attention until I started
sending him terse emails with no frills and no explanation. My
impression is that my reasoning makes no impression on him at all. He
didn't feel my iron fist until I shut up and took off the velvet glove
(thanks to my coaches-- LOL!)

Basically you will pay for what you get. If he wants to give you something
less than full value, then the price should be adjusted accordingly. This
would be fair. (If he is the type I think he is, he will scream like a stuck
pig at any reduction in price!)

Let's find out what is more important to him. His restrictions or cash....
I'll bet he wants the cash!

Well, having no restrictions is more important to me than getting the
land-- LOL!

He emailed me this morning and asked for my response to his fax. I
replied with my firm restrictions, and told him I was now offering
$35,000. He replied very quickly that they were going ahead with their
original plans and thanks for my interest.

I HOPE I've heard the last of him! I'm enormously relieved, now that
I've come to grips with the fact that having an upscale subdivision
over my back fence isn't the worst thing in the world.

This may be the end of it... or maybe not....