Hi... I'm really tired of being fleeced by my electric company (the
house is all electric), and have reached the point where I'm ready to
take serious "fight back" action. I'm checking into geothermal heat
and air (retro-fit), and also seiously considering solar electricity
(photo voltaics).

Any thoughts will be appreciated. I'm expecially interested in
hearing from anyone with first hand experience.

Thanks!

CF

Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen) wrote:
Hi... I'm really tired of being fleeced by my electric company (the
house is all electric), and have reached the point where I'm ready to
take serious "fight back" action. I'm checking into geothermal heat
and air (retro-fit), and also seiously considering solar electricity
(photo voltaics).

Any thoughts will be appreciated. I'm expecially interested in
hearing from anyone with first hand experience.

Thanks!

CF


Solar electric is either a total economic disaster or marginal,
depending on how you look at it.

Case #1 What it really costs. A 6KW system costs about $55K. A 9KW
system costs $75K. Given that a hair dryer can pull 1.5KW, a central
AC can pull the entire 9KW, and the sun only shines during the day, it
doesn't sound very good, does it?

Case #2 The economic reality is hidden by subsidies. Here in NJ, you
can get that 6KW system for around 13K, with the other $42K coming from
the dumb sap taxpayers. You can also get some small income stream from
selling excess power back to the electric company when the sun is
shining. So, if you look at it from that perspective, it starts to
look better. Of course, the big questions are how long these really
last, how suceptable to damage from say, hail, they are, where you
live, how much subsidy you can get, how you finance it, what your
electric rate is, etc.

BP is selling there systems through Home Depot. They have a website at
BP with a calc tool that's supposed to show you what it will cost,
save, etc. But that is a total farce too. They claim a substantial
amount of credit in the form of "Tax savings." Read the fine print,
and you will find that this assumes you finance the thing with a home
equity loan or mortgage and deduct the interest. That's OK, but then
they don't include any cost for the actual interest on the loan, which
of course is several times the tax savings, making it just another lie.

In other words, this is big great crock put forth by environmentalists,
who proclaim this a viable solution to our energy problems. When you
look at it in real economic terms, it just falls apart.

On 4 Jul 2006 07:20:04 -0700, wrote:



Solar electric is either a total economic disaster or marginal,
depending on how you look at it.

Case #1 What it really costs. A 6KW system costs about $55K. A 9KW
system costs $75K. Given that a hair dryer can pull 1.5KW, a central
AC can pull the entire 9KW, and the sun only shines during the day, it
doesn't sound very good, does it?

Case #2 The economic reality is hidden by subsidies. Here in NJ, you
can get that 6KW system for around 13K, with the other $42K coming from
the dumb sap taxpayers. You can also get some small income stream from
selling excess power back to the electric company when the sun is
shining. So, if you look at it from that perspective, it starts to
look better. Of course, the big questions are how long these really
last, how suceptable to damage from say, hail, they are, where you
live, how much subsidy you can get, how you finance it, what your
electric rate is, etc.

BP is selling there systems through Home Depot. They have a website at
BP with a calc tool that's supposed to show you what it will cost,
save, etc. But that is a total farce too. They claim a substantial
amount of credit in the form of "Tax savings." Read the fine print,
and you will find that this assumes you finance the thing with a home
equity loan or mortgage and deduct the interest. That's OK, but then
they don't include any cost for the actual interest on the loan, which
of course is several times the tax savings, making it just another lie.

In other words, this is big great crock put forth by environmentalists,
who proclaim this a viable solution to our energy problems. When you
look at it in real economic terms, it just falls apart.



But living with TXU, my electric company, is a total economic
disaster! I bought this house a year ago. I's all electric. For a
while the electric bill seemed a bit high, but hey, I've not lived in
an all electric house in forty or more years, so you've gotta give a
little, right? Comes along winter. In November, it was very cold
around here and I had company from out of town on three different
occasions, plus cooked a huge Thanksgiving feast. My electric bill
was $360. Okay. I don't like it, but I can live with that. December
was warm. No company. No Christmas decorations -- why bother? And
my electric bill was $700.00!!! I cannot live with that!

Had them check my meter. "Nothing wrong with your meter. Pay up."
January was back to $360.00, but without company or feasting. It's a
nightmare. I plan on living here for another twenty years. I figure
that even if my electric bill settles down and averages $350.00 a
month (like that's gonna happen!), that's going to cost $84,000.00!
Kinda makes photovoltaics look better, doesn't it?

Every appliance in the house is Energy Star except the hot water
heater. The majority of my light bulbs are fluorescent. When every
light in the kitchen, breakfast room, living foom, family room and
study are burning I'm using less that 200 watts! And I still get this
kind of electric bill. Do you know of a better alternative? I don't
like the smell of whale oil. Candles drip too much.

Meanwhile, I'll be interested if anyone else has input?

CF

Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen) wrote:
On 4 Jul 2006 07:20:04 -0700, wrote:



Solar electric is either a total economic disaster or marginal,
depending on how you look at it.

Case #1 What it really costs. A 6KW system costs about $55K. A 9KW
system costs $75K. Given that a hair dryer can pull 1.5KW, a central
AC can pull the entire 9KW, and the sun only shines during the day, it
doesn't sound very good, does it?

Case #2 The economic reality is hidden by subsidies. Here in NJ, you
can get that 6KW system for around 13K, with the other $42K coming from
the dumb sap taxpayers. You can also get some small income stream from
selling excess power back to the electric company when the sun is
shining. So, if you look at it from that perspective, it starts to
look better. Of course, the big questions are how long these really
last, how suceptable to damage from say, hail, they are, where you
live, how much subsidy you can get, how you finance it, what your
electric rate is, etc.

BP is selling there systems through Home Depot. They have a website at
BP with a calc tool that's supposed to show you what it will cost,
save, etc. But that is a total farce too. They claim a substantial
amount of credit in the form of "Tax savings." Read the fine print,
and you will find that this assumes you finance the thing with a home
equity loan or mortgage and deduct the interest. That's OK, but then
they don't include any cost for the actual interest on the loan, which
of course is several times the tax savings, making it just another lie.

In other words, this is big great crock put forth by environmentalists,
who proclaim this a viable solution to our energy problems. When you
look at it in real economic terms, it just falls apart.



But living with TXU, my electric company, is a total economic
disaster! I bought this house a year ago. I's all electric. For a
while the electric bill seemed a bit high, but hey, I've not lived in
an all electric house in forty or more years, so you've gotta give a
little, right? Comes along winter. In November, it was very cold
around here and I had company from out of town on three different
occasions, plus cooked a huge Thanksgiving feast. My electric bill
was $360. Okay. I don't like it, but I can live with that. December
was warm. No company. No Christmas decorations -- why bother? And
my electric bill was $700.00!!! I cannot live with that!

Had them check my meter. "Nothing wrong with your meter. Pay up."
January was back to $360.00, but without company or feasting. It's a
nightmare. I plan on living here for another twenty years. I figure
that even if my electric bill settles down and averages $350.00 a
month (like that's gonna happen!), that's going to cost $84,000.00!
Kinda makes photovoltaics look better, doesn't it?

Every appliance in the house is Energy Star except the hot water
heater. The majority of my light bulbs are fluorescent. When every
light in the kitchen, breakfast room, living foom, family room and
study are burning I'm using less that 200 watts! And I still get this
kind of electric bill. Do you know of a better alternative? I don't
like the smell of whale oil. Candles drip too much.

Meanwhile, I'll be interested if anyone else has input?

CF

The first thing that is obvious is if your house is all electric, solar
electric isn't a solution, as the heating part of the load which is
killing you will be far more than is practical iwth a reasonable cost
system, even with rebates and incentives. Houses that use solar
electric typically have minimized their use of electricity already and
that means no electric heat.

In your case, I'd get a total energy evaluation done on the house.
Some utilities will do this for free. I'd be looking at insulation,
attic ventilation, air leakage, etc. Then, I'd consider a heat pump
system, which may be a good alternative in your area. Another
possibility is solar heat, which unlike solar electric, does make
economic sense. Geothermal is worth a look too, but it does have a
higher upfront cost.

It's hard to give much advice beyond that, without knowing more about
the specifics of your house, energy pricing/availability.

An electric water heater can be 30% of an electric bill. Check into solar
water heating systems.

Also in some areas you can get a "time of use" electric meter. With this,
electricity is less expensive at low peak times like middle of the night.
You can get timers for things like freezer and water heater.

Can also set up a 2nd hot water heater for everything except shower. Set
this to barely warm not hot.

And then for heating, just heat a couple of rooms, not the whole house. At
night I may close my bedroom door and heat just the bedroom.

Then put power strips on everything electronic. Things like TV, stereo,
microwave, etc. (electronic stuff) will use electricity when "off". Turn off
power to these things when not in use.

Also check into getting extra insulation, heavy drapes, and energy star
windows.

A solar electric system can cost $40,000. But if you get a solar hot water
heater, then you might be able to cut your solar electric needs down quite a
bit. Check into "net metering". Read followuing link...
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/solar/net_metering.html

Grid tie inverter...
http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/172/p/1/pt/23/product.asp

Some of this stuff can cost a small fortune, but if you are going to live
there the rest of your life, these things will pay off in the long run. It
would be nice to have reduced electric bills in the future.

All I can say is that I live in Maine and also had a totally electric
house....ouch! Put in a Monitor kerosene hearter on my main floor and
it heated the whole house. Only used approx 400 gallons on K-1 per
YEAR! Still had the electric bill from hell due to not converting my
hot water over to K-1 heater. 1600 sq ft living area. Hope this helps.
Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen) wrote:
On 4 Jul 2006 07:20:04 -0700, wrote:



Solar electric is either a total economic disaster or marginal,
depending on how you look at it.

Case #1 What it really costs. A 6KW system costs about $55K. A 9KW
system costs $75K. Given that a hair dryer can pull 1.5KW, a central
AC can pull the entire 9KW, and the sun only shines during the day, it
doesn't sound very good, does it?

Case #2 The economic reality is hidden by subsidies. Here in NJ, you
can get that 6KW system for around 13K, with the other $42K coming from
the dumb sap taxpayers. You can also get some small income stream from
selling excess power back to the electric company when the sun is
shining. So, if you look at it from that perspective, it starts to
look better. Of course, the big questions are how long these really
last, how suceptable to damage from say, hail, they are, where you
live, how much subsidy you can get, how you finance it, what your
electric rate is, etc.

BP is selling there systems through Home Depot. They have a website at
BP with a calc tool that's supposed to show you what it will cost,
save, etc. But that is a total farce too. They claim a substantial
amount of credit in the form of "Tax savings." Read the fine print,
and you will find that this assumes you finance the thing with a home
equity loan or mortgage and deduct the interest. That's OK, but then
they don't include any cost for the actual interest on the loan, which
of course is several times the tax savings, making it just another lie.

In other words, this is big great crock put forth by environmentalists,
who proclaim this a viable solution to our energy problems. When you
look at it in real economic terms, it just falls apart.



But living with TXU, my electric company, is a total economic
disaster! I bought this house a year ago. I's all electric. For a
while the electric bill seemed a bit high, but hey, I've not lived in
an all electric house in forty or more years, so you've gotta give a
little, right? Comes along winter. In November, it was very cold
around here and I had company from out of town on three different
occasions, plus cooked a huge Thanksgiving feast. My electric bill
was $360. Okay. I don't like it, but I can live with that. December
was warm. No company. No Christmas decorations -- why bother? And
my electric bill was $700.00!!! I cannot live with that!

Had them check my meter. "Nothing wrong with your meter. Pay up."
January was back to $360.00, but without company or feasting. It's a
nightmare. I plan on living here for another twenty years. I figure
that even if my electric bill settles down and averages $350.00 a
month (like that's gonna happen!), that's going to cost $84,000.00!
Kinda makes photovoltaics look better, doesn't it?

Every appliance in the house is Energy Star except the hot water
heater. The majority of my light bulbs are fluorescent. When every
light in the kitchen, breakfast room, living foom, family room and
study are burning I'm using less that 200 watts! And I still get this
kind of electric bill. Do you know of a better alternative? I don't
like the smell of whale oil. Candles drip too much.

Meanwhile, I'll be interested if anyone else has input?

CF

Bill wrote:
Then put power strips on everything electronic. Things like TV, stereo,
microwave, etc. (electronic stuff) will use electricity when "off". Turn off
power to these things when not in use.
Good advice. I've also read it helps to replace all incandescent bulbs
with compact flourescent, switch to an LCD tv, and replace the desktop
PC with a laptop (uses less juice even when powered from wall).

I just noticed my electrical use is much higher in winter, and we have
a gas furnace and water heater. I think it's the fans in the furnace,
guess it takes some juice to move all that air around.

"Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen)" wrote:

Hi... I'm really tired of being fleeced by my electric company (the
house is all electric), and have reached the point where I'm ready to
take serious "fight back" action. I'm checking into geothermal heat
and air (retro-fit), and also seiously considering solar electricity
(photo voltaics).

Any thoughts will be appreciated. I'm expecially interested in
hearing from anyone with first hand experience.

Take a look at

http://www.solar-electric.com/solar_system_costs.htm which says

How to figure the cost for 100% solar power

* First, take number of KWH shown on your bill. Divide that by 30.
That gives you your average daily usage. So if you use 700 KWH, that
is 23.3 KWH per day.
* Take that number. Divide it by the number of full sun hours you get
per day on a yearly average. Multiply it by 1.15. That will give you a
pretty close estimate of how many watts of solar panel you need. So if
you get 5 hours per day, divide 23.3 by 5 - that gives you 4.66 KW, or
4,666 watts. Multiply that by 1.15, which gives you 5,360 watts of
solar panel needed.
* Average installed cost of solar electric if you do it yourself is
around $7 per watt, or $9 if you have it installed by a licensed
contractor. That includes the cost of the panels, inverters, wire,
mounts, and other hardware. It does NOT include anything else you
might need to pay for, like inspections or extra watt meters by the
electric company. So that system will cost you around $37,500.

Also see the location/cost calculator they refer you to at
http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/calculat...ATTS/version1/

And http://www.solarexpert.com/grid-tie/FAQs.html says

Improved manufacturing has reduced the cost to less than 5% of what it
cost in the 1970's, but the cost (amortized over the 30 expected life
of the system) is about 25 cents per kilowatt-hour. Solar rebates and
incentives can help make solar electricity more affordable and
practical.
....Typically a 2kw solar electric system will power a house in the
daytime, send excess power back into the grid and this excess is used
at night. In effect the utility grid is an infinitely sized free
battery. In Los Angeles a 2 kw system will provide about 20 to 50% of
the power needs of an average home.

HellT

On Tue, 04 Jul 2006 16:28:43 GMT, someone wrote:


....I bought this house a year ago. I's all electric.
cut
.... I plan on living here for another twenty years. I figure
that even if my electric bill settles down and averages $350.00 a
month (like that's gonna happen!), that's going to cost $84,000.00!
Kinda makes photovoltaics look better, doesn't it?

Every appliance in the house is Energy Star except the hot water
heater..... When every
light in the kitchen, breakfast room, living foom, family room and
study are burning I'm using less that 200 watts! And I still get this
kind of electric bill. Do you know of a better alternative?

You're a fool. You aren't living on 200 watts. Your appliances
consume thousands of watts. Your electric heat, yow! And do you have
"air conditioning"?

And no, your electric bill is not "$84,000". It would be $350/mo.,
$4,200/yr., so what if that comes to $84,000 for 20 years or $420,000
for 100 years, nowhere do you have to come up with $84,000 at once.

To maintain the same life style on photovoltaics might cost you
$84,000 UP FRONT lump sum payment, thought as mentioned the rest of
the taxpayers will subsidize you back a lot of it. If you want to
make photovolatics realisitic you'd need to drastically change your
approach to life and the design of the systems in your house.

If you could "just switch" to photovoltaics and not have an electric
bill, don't you think everyone would have done it? Do you really
think that you and only you has had this unique bright idea for the
very first time????


Reply to NG only - this e.mail address goes to a kill file.

Thank you....!