Hello, any advice is appreciated.

I am about to buy a house with a roughly-constructed basement bathroom.

It was listed on the MLS as a 2-bed, 2-bath (one upstairs, one down. I
had the house inspected because in MN it's required before every
purchase.

The owners had us over last night to see if we'd want anything they
were hoping to leave behind (lawnmower, etc).

I asked him if the basement shower was vented and P-trapped (a strict
code requirement). He said it wasn't. He may have been wrong, but I
don't think so - he seemed pretty sharp about his house. I haven't had
the chance to look at the shower drain to find out. I am assuming if
the shower wasn't P-trapped, the toilet wasn't either. Big code no-no.

This is a "non-conforming" bathroom, right? Just like a non-conforming
bedroom?

My question: was it legal for him to list this house as a 2-bed,
2-bath? Because one of their negotiation points was: "this house is
smack dab on market vale for a 2-bed/2-bath in Fridley, MN. We think we

can get it, which is why we're not going to take much off our asking
price."

If it was legal, then it must be OK for me to sell it as 2-bath.
Correct?

My main point -- I plan on finishing the rest of the basement. If the
city makes me bring the bathroom up to code, why should I pay for it?
It's been sold as a perfectly good bathroom to me. Why can't I sell it,

as is, to the next person? If I'm forced to sell it as non-conforming,
this guy's listing screwed me because I can't ask as much $$ as he did.


Thanks for our help. This is my first house and I'm concerned.

PS - the inspector most likely is insulated from action by the
paperwork I signed. I'll take a look at it and check. Most are.

Yes, a seller can include non-conforming bedrooms and
bathrooms in the count when advertising a house for sale.
He's making a statement about what the house has, not about
what it has that's up to code.

However, in Minnesota, sellers are required to disclose
information that could affect "an ordinary buyer's use and
enjoyment of the property" or "any intended use of the
property of which the seller is aware." See
http://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/stats/513/55.html and
http://www.daar.com/SellerDisclosure.htm. It is easy to
argue convincingly that non-conformance about which the
seller was obviously aware falls into that category.

Note, however, that since the non-conformance was disclosed
before the closing, you're in a grey area. If you didn't
find out until after the closing, you'd have an open-and-shut
case of violation of the disclosure statute, and you could
sue the seller for damages, probably calculated based on the
cost of bringing the bathroom up to code.

At this point, you could probably demand that the seller
lower the purchase price of the house on a similar basis, and
if he refuses you can probably demand to be let out of the
deal and for the seller to pay all your costs associated with
the deal. However, if the seller refuses to lower the
purchase price and you decide to go ahead with the purchase
anyway, you probably can't collect any damages.

The inspector's off the hook because he's also required to
spot what's visible to the naked eye, and the problems with
the bathroom aren't.

If you sell the house, you are obligated to disclose even if
the seller didn't, so if you were to leave the bathroom as-is
and then sell without disclosing that it's non-conformant,
you'd be violating the disclosure statute just as your seller
did.

cherry tomatoes are best. they grow fast and provide fruit all during
your growing season

The house we now own had four rooms actually in use as bedrooms when we
looked at it before buying it, but it was advertised as having only
three, the fourth being a windowless basement room.

Even the third bedroom (also in the basement) did not comply with the
current Code, because the window was too small and too high, but it was
legitimate to claim it as a bedroom because it complied with the Code
when it was constructed/converted. (We had the window enlarged to
conform to the current Code.)

In the case of the house to which the OP refers, is it possible that the
basement bathroom complied with the Code when it was constructed -- and
therefore, presumably, "grandfathered"?

Perce


On 08/03/05 02:50 pm Jonathan Kamens tossed the following ingredients
into the ever-growing pot of cybersoup:

Yes, a seller can include non-conforming bedrooms and
bathrooms in the count when advertising a house for sale.
He's making a statement about what the house has, not about
what it has that's up to code.

However, in Minnesota, sellers are required to disclose
information that could affect "an ordinary buyer's use and
enjoyment of the property" or "any intended use of the
property of which the seller is aware." See
http://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/stats/513/55.html and
http://www.daar.com/SellerDisclosure.htm. It is easy to
argue convincingly that non-conformance about which the
seller was obviously aware falls into that category.

Note, however, that since the non-conformance was disclosed
before the closing, you're in a grey area. If you didn't
find out until after the closing, you'd have an open-and-shut
case of violation of the disclosure statute, and you could
sue the seller for damages, probably calculated based on the
cost of bringing the bathroom up to code.

At this point, you could probably demand that the seller
lower the purchase price of the house on a similar basis, and
if he refuses you can probably demand to be let out of the
deal and for the seller to pay all your costs associated with
the deal. However, if the seller refuses to lower the
purchase price and you decide to go ahead with the purchase
anyway, you probably can't collect any damages.

The inspector's off the hook because he's also required to
spot what's visible to the naked eye, and the problems with
the bathroom aren't.

If you sell the house, you are obligated to disclose even if
the seller didn't, so if you were to leave the bathroom as-is
and then sell without disclosing that it's non-conformant,
you'd be violating the disclosure statute just as your seller
did.

bryanska wrote:

Hello, any advice is appreciated.

I am about to buy a house with a roughly-constructed basement bathroom.

It was listed on the MLS as a 2-bed, 2-bath (one upstairs, one down. I
had the house inspected because in MN it's required before every
purchase.

The owners had us over last night to see if we'd want anything they
were hoping to leave behind (lawnmower, etc).

I asked him if the basement shower was vented and P-trapped (a strict
code requirement). He said it wasn't. He may have been wrong, but I
don't think so - he seemed pretty sharp about his house. I haven't had
the chance to look at the shower drain to find out. I am assuming if
the shower wasn't P-trapped, the toilet wasn't either. Big code no-no.


A P-trap for the toilet?

On Wed, 3 Aug 2005 18:50:22 +0000 (UTC), someone wrote:

if he refuses you can probably demand to be let out of the
deal and for the seller to pay all your costs associated with
the deal.....

Hey Jon, watch out, you're almost giving legal advice! ;-)

He can DEMAND anything he wants - but COLLECTING on that is another
matter entirely. So he finds out something that makes him want to
back out - and it is arguable whether this is the Seller's "fault" or
not - so he backs out - IMHO (of course) fat chance of getting "all"
his costs....


Reply to NG only - this e.mail address goes to a kill file.

Thanks all, for your advice.

The more I'm asking around about this, the more it's a "grandfather"
issue. The bath can be left as is, and I can sell it as is. Ditto if it
was a non-conforming bedroom that WAS conforming at time of
construction.

But if I choose to replace any of the bathroom fixtures I may be forced
to upgrade the plumbing and install P-traps. This means breaking up
concrete etc. That is, of course, if I decide to pull permits. But
permit or not, a sewer-stinky remodeled bathroom isn't what I'm looking
for.

*sigh* I didn't know squat about bathroom code until I got all excited
after the offer was approved and I started researching my fun little
bathroom project.