Hi, I need some advice. I'm in the process of buying a Victorian house
in Rochester, NY. It needs some work, including a new roof. The roof
has tongue and groove sheathing boards (3/4 inch thick) that are still
in good condition (as seen from the attic) and a 45 degree (12:12)
pitch. The house originally had a slate roof. In fact, I just realized
by carefully examining a hole in the porch that the originaly slate roof
is still there, and 2 or 3 additional roofs seem to have been simply
nailed on top.

I think a slate roof would be a good fit for this house, but I think it
is a bit out of my price range. Do you think it would be possible to
somehow recycle the existing slate that is there, or at least some of
it? The shingles that I could see through the hole didn't seem to be
cracked, but on of them had a nail through the middle. I was thinking
that if some fraction of these originaly slate tiles could be salvaged,
that would save money on a slate roof, and I might be able to afford it.

I've gotten several estimates for new roofs that seem to be fairly high
to me. With a complete tear-off and architectural shingles, I've been
quoted between $25,000 and $30,000. The roof area is 4200 square feet,
and there are three chimneys. If any experts are reading, does that
estimate sound reasonable? The selling agent had told me that he had
gotten an estimate from some guy for around $8000.

Any advice would be appreciated, especially concerning the old slate.

Thanks,

keith

Keith A. Schneider wrote:
Hi, I need some advice. I'm in the process of buying a Victorian
house in Rochester, NY. It needs some work, including a new roof.
The roof has tongue and groove sheathing boards (3/4 inch thick) that
are still in good condition (as seen from the attic) and a 45 degree
(12:12) pitch. The house originally had a slate roof. In fact, I
just realized by carefully examining a hole in the porch that the
originaly slate roof is still there, and 2 or 3 additional roofs seem
to have been simply nailed on top.

I think a slate roof would be a good fit for this house, but I think
it is a bit out of my price range. Do you think it would be possible
to somehow recycle the existing slate that is there, or at least some
of it? The shingles that I could see through the hole didn't seem to
be cracked, but on of them had a nail through the middle. I was
thinking that if some fraction of these originaly slate tiles could
be salvaged, that would save money on a slate roof, and I might be
able to afford it.

As you've noted, slate can be very expensive ($1K / square isn't
unusual, especially for a 12 pitch roof).

You could remove and recycle the existing slate if it is in good
condition, but there sure will be a lot of labor involved in that. Even
the cleaning of any recovered slate would be a big job.

I wouldn't put shingles on a roof that large and complex -- after all,
you'd have to replace them in another 10 years or so. Instead, consider
cement tile ($450 / square on low slope, higher on steep roofs).

How many estimates have you gotten? If the "between $25,000
and $30,000" came from a single roofer, then you should get
at least two more estimates. Don't just look roofers up in
the yellow pages -- talk to homeowners you know who've had
their rooves done and get recommendations.

An estimate of $25k to $30k for a tear-off sounds reasonable
to me, but again, you need to get other estimates.

Was "the estimate from some guy for around $8000" that the
selling agent told you about for a tear-off or putting another
layer on top (which would of course be completely
irresponsible if there are already 3 or 4 layers)? And what
type and quality of shingles did that guy intend to use? If
you don't have details like this about that estimate, then the
estimate is worthless. I suspect it's worthless in any case,
because the agent probably found someone he knew would
low-ball the estimate so that he could quote you a low
estimate for redoing the roof.

I doubt that it will be cost-effective for you to salvage the
old slate. If a new roof was nailed on top of old slate, then
there will be nail holes through most of the slate shingles,
and many of them will be split; all of the split or holed
shingles will not be reusable. Furthermore, until you've
removed all the layers on top of the slate, there's no way of
knowing how much of the slate is missing. It seems likely
that there will be quite a bit missing, since if there weren't
they would have patched it rather than putting on a new
asphalt roof. Another issue is that even if a significant
amount of the slate is reusable, it will be difficult for you
to find new slate to match it for the rest.

I doubt you'll be able to find a roofer willing to do what
you're proposing. If you do, he won't be willing to give you
a reliable estimate until the layers above the slate have been
removed so he can see how much of the slate is reusable.

Slate lasts much longer than asphalt, at least in climates
where its use is not recommended because the weather is too
harsh. It's per year cost averages out significantly lower
than asphalt, and hence it increases the value of your house
and costs you less in the long term.

If you haven't yet closed on the financing for the house, and
you know that you're going to have to replace the roof, you
might want to consider rolling whatever portion you can't
afford now of the cost of slate into your financing, so that
you can go ahead and put on slate.

On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:04:02 +0000 (UTC),
(Jonathan Kamens) wrote:

Good points here; get more estimates.

Was "the estimate from some guy for around $8000" that the
selling agent told you about for a tear-off or putting another
layer on top (which would of course be completely
irresponsible if there are already 3 or 4 layers)?

More than 2 layers of roofing material is now illegal in New York
State. One can put one new layer of roof over the original roof, and
in the case of two roofs on a structure, one must do a complete
tearoff, so this guy has no choice but to remove all the stuff on this
Victorian roof.

I agree that he should factor in roof removal/replacement in his
purchase decision. I hope he buys the house and replaces the roof
correctly so the house stands for even more time.

(Keith A. Schneider) wrote in news:d8pb85$bf4$1
@naig.caltech.edu:

Hi, I need some advice. I'm in the process of buying a Victorian house
in Rochester, NY. It needs some work, including a new roof. The roof
has tongue and groove sheathing boards (3/4 inch thick) that are still
in good condition (as seen from the attic) and a 45 degree (12:12)
pitch. The house originally had a slate roof. In fact, I just realized
by carefully examining a hole in the porch that the originaly slate roof
is still there, and 2 or 3 additional roofs seem to have been simply
nailed on top.

How could asphalt shingles be nailed over the top of slate?

David W. wrote:
How could asphalt shingles be nailed over the top of slate?

With a hammer.

On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 17:22:31 GMT, someone wrote:

David W. wrote:
How could asphalt shingles be nailed over the top of slate?

With a hammer.

LOL, ya beat me to it. (Nowadays, it might be "with a nail gun".)

I used to live outside of Rochester, NY in a "Queen Anne", which many
people might call a "Victorian". In that part of the US, houses of
that era as a dime a dozen.



Reply to NG only - this e.mail address goes to a kill file.

On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 19:27:05 GMT, (v) wrote:

On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 17:22:31 GMT, someone wrote:

David W. wrote:
How could asphalt shingles be nailed over the top of slate?

With a hammer.

LOL, ya beat me to it. (Nowadays, it might be "with a nail gun".)

I used to live outside of Rochester, NY in a "Queen Anne", which many
people might call a "Victorian". In that part of the US, houses of
that era as a dime a dozen.

About 20 years ago when I lived in New Jersey I watched in horror as
my next door neighbors had a contractor put asphalt shingles over
slate on their Craftsman home. It was sad 'cause the original slate
wasn't in such bad shape, just needed some patching. And when I asked
my neighbors why they did it they said they couldn't find anyone to do
slate. It was too late for me to give them the names of several
roofers in the area who still did slate.

--
Luke
__________________________________________________ ____________________
"Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by
the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts
were being fixed around the policy."
-- The Downing Street Memo, July 23, 2002
http://www.downingstreetmemo.com

Luke wrote:
About 20 years ago when I lived in New Jersey I watched in horror as
my next door neighbors had a contractor put asphalt shingles over
slate on their Craftsman home. It was sad 'cause the original slate
wasn't in such bad shape, just needed some patching. And when I asked
my neighbors why they did it they said they couldn't find anyone to do
slate. It was too late for me to give them the names of several
roofers in the area who still did slate.

Oh, the inhumanity! I'll have nightmares tonight.

(Jonathan Kamens) writes:

How many estimates have you gotten? If the "between $25,000
and $30,000" came from a single roofer, then you should get
at least two more estimates. Don't just look roofers up in
the yellow pages -- talk to homeowners you know who've had
their rooves done and get recommendations.

I've gotten five estimates. The first one was from the selling broker.
He told me that he had an estiamte for a complete tear-off for $7800. I
called the guy, and he said that he was the "cheapest roofer in town".
But this estimate of $7800 was for tearing off the outer two asphalt
layers and putting 30 lb. felt over what he thought was probably an
original cedar shake layer. He wasn't proposing to replace the valleys
or flashings or anything.

The second estimate was from an FHA consultant. He priced it out to be
4200 square feet and about $28,000 for the complete tear-off and
removal. He said this would be for a top of the line roof.

The third estimate was from a contractor who estimated it about be about
$20,000. The fourth estimate was from a Home Depot person. She
wouldn't give me a firm estimate, but thought it would be about $26,000
or $28,000 with the 50-year shingles. The fifth estimate was a
contractor who thought it would be $30,000 to $40,000. He was proposing
a more sophisticated type of venting though, some sort of thing intakes
along the edges of the roof in addition to the ridge line vent.

I'm getting an FHA 203k loan, so they have allocated about $30,000 for
the roof. What I'd really like is a slate or synthetic slate roof. I
need to call some contractors to see if I can get any estimates near
that price range. I understand that a slate roof might be as much as
$50,000. I don't think I want to pay that much.

I doubt that it will be cost-effective for you to salvage the
old slate. If a new roof was nailed on top of old slate, then
there will be nail holes through most of the slate shingles,
and many of them will be split; all of the split or holed
shingles will not be reusable. Furthermore, until you've
removed all the layers on top of the slate, there's no way of
knowing how much of the slate is missing. It seems likely
that there will be quite a bit missing, since if there weren't
they would have patched it rather than putting on a new
asphalt roof. Another issue is that even if a significant
amount of the slate is reusable, it will be difficult for you
to find new slate to match it for the rest.

That's too bad. Seeing the original slate on there makes me want to get
a real slate roof even more. But that might be over-improving the house
relative to the neighborhood.

(Yes, it is a Queen Anne.)

The exterior needs painting too, I'm trying to decide on color schemes.
I've seen a few books that weren't all that helpful...

keith

On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 03:51:15 +0000 (UTC),
(Keith A. Schneider) wrote:

[snippage]
(Yes, it is a Queen Anne.)

The exterior needs painting too, I'm trying to decide on color schemes.
I've seen a few books that weren't all that helpful...

You may find The Old House Journal helpful:
http://www.oldhousejournal.com/magazine/index.shtml

I'm sure there's info on the web, start googling :-).

Can't help with your roofing other than suggest you avoid Home Depot
and its ilk like the plague (a google groups search on this group and
alt.home.repair will turn up many posts about nasty entanglements with
the Despot's installers), and thoroughly check out whoever you use.

--
Luke
__________________________________________________ ____________________
"Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by
the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts
were being fixed around the policy."
-- The Downing Street Memo, July 23, 2002
http://www.downingstreetmemo.com