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Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems. |
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#1
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Pioneer M-790 amp adjustment
I've got a Pioneer M-790 here with all 8 power output transistors blown. I
found a number of cracked solder joints, is there anything else I should check on this particular amp before I install new transistors and try it out? Also how do I adjust the bias? I only see one pot in the whole amp. |
#2
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Pioneer M-790 amp adjustment
There's a long history on these "blow line" models. Most likely only the
outputs and some 220 ohm emitter-base resistors are bad. You are aware, I hope, of the so-called "protection" circuit on these, which INTENTIONALLY blows the outputs if any fault is detected? Mark Z. -- Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam have rendered my regular e-mail address useless. "James Sweet" wrote in message newsQAuc.22391$4A6.20874@attbi_s52... I've got a Pioneer M-790 here with all 8 power output transistors blown. I found a number of cracked solder joints, is there anything else I should check on this particular amp before I install new transistors and try it out? Also how do I adjust the bias? I only see one pot in the whole amp. |
#3
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Pioneer M-790 amp adjustment
"James Sweet" bravely wrote to "All" (31 May 04 07:07:00)
--- on the heady topic of "Pioneer M-790 amp adjustment" JS Reply-To: "James Sweet" JS From: "James Sweet" JS I've got a Pioneer M-790 here with all 8 power output transistors JS blown. I found a number of cracked solder joints, is there anything JS else I should check on this particular amp before I install new JS transistors and try it out? Also how do I adjust the bias? I only see JS one pot in the whole amp. Yes, check the bias circuit "very" carefully and use resistors to limit current in the power transistors during testing. The value of these protection resistors depends on the supply and current but for say 40 volts with 100mA, something like 100 to 330 ohms at 7W+. Determine what is a safe value for this amp but it is very advisable to use them for initial testing just in case. Bias is often permanently set in some models and thus one must use oem matched transistors for these or they won't track thermally. The single pot is likely to adjust a regulated supply voltage: don't touch it. Do some tracing starting from the wiper and determine its function. Be very careful to check the driver circuits as well because when the output transistors go they tend to inject a heavy current back there. It's like a chain reaction which propagates backwards from the output. Well, this is probably not enough to help but I do wish you good luck! A*s*i*m*o*v .... A fail-safe circuit will destroy others. |
#4
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Pioneer M-790 amp adjustment
The bias is set by soldering together or unsoldering specific adjacent foil
pads near the bias transistors. No practical way of telling you which to use via these postings. For each bias transistor there is one pad pair which is soldered to increase bias, and one to decrease bias. If both were soldered, there would effectively be no change in bias. There are surface-mount transistors which can be shorted emitter-base to defeat the "blow" function. Assuming there is no other problems, the amp would fire up OK after replacing the outputs and 220 ohm resistors. The Blow line must measure less than 100mV under all conditions before it is safe to unsolder the surface-mount transistors mentioned above. ALWAYS bleed off the power supplies - all 4 of them - before any soldering etc. These supplies do not go down or bleed off when the power is removed, not even when unplugged. Post back if your still into doing this one, and I can get more info - I've done lots of these. Mark Z. -- Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam have rendered my regular e-mail address useless. "Asimov" wrote in message ... "James Sweet" bravely wrote to "All" (31 May 04 07:07:00) --- on the heady topic of "Pioneer M-790 amp adjustment" JS Reply-To: "James Sweet" JS From: "James Sweet" JS I've got a Pioneer M-790 here with all 8 power output transistors JS blown. I found a number of cracked solder joints, is there anything JS else I should check on this particular amp before I install new JS transistors and try it out? Also how do I adjust the bias? I only see JS one pot in the whole amp. Yes, check the bias circuit "very" carefully and use resistors to limit current in the power transistors during testing. The value of these protection resistors depends on the supply and current but for say 40 volts with 100mA, something like 100 to 330 ohms at 7W+. Determine what is a safe value for this amp but it is very advisable to use them for initial testing just in case. Bias is often permanently set in some models and thus one must use oem matched transistors for these or they won't track thermally. The single pot is likely to adjust a regulated supply voltage: don't touch it. Do some tracing starting from the wiper and determine its function. Be very careful to check the driver circuits as well because when the output transistors go they tend to inject a heavy current back there. It's like a chain reaction which propagates backwards from the output. Well, this is probably not enough to help but I do wish you good luck! A*s*i*m*o*v ... A fail-safe circuit will destroy others. |
#5
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Pioneer M-790 amp adjustment
"Mark D. Zacharias" wrote in message ... The bias is set by soldering together or unsoldering specific adjacent foil pads near the bias transistors. No practical way of telling you which to use via these postings. For each bias transistor there is one pad pair which is soldered to increase bias, and one to decrease bias. If both were soldered, there would effectively be no change in bias. There are surface-mount transistors which can be shorted emitter-base to defeat the "blow" function. Assuming there is no other problems, the amp would fire up OK after replacing the outputs and 220 ohm resistors. The Blow line must measure less than 100mV under all conditions before it is safe to unsolder the surface-mount transistors mentioned above. ALWAYS bleed off the power supplies - all 4 of them - before any soldering etc. These supplies do not go down or bleed off when the power is removed, not even when unplugged. Post back if your still into doing this one, and I can get more info - I've done lots of these. Mark Z. Oh joy, if I'd known how much hassle this would be I wouldn't have ordered parts, oh well. Now that I'm into it I may as well see if I can finish. So let me get this straight, the "protection" circuit *intentionally* blows the output transistors?! What the hell were they thinking?? Where are the 220 ohm resistors? I was looking casually for the usual largish resistors but I didn't see them. What's the general procedure for setting the bias? The only amps I've ever done it on I had a listing of exactly what current to adjust for and a pot which made it easy. This is a rather unusual amp, please fill me in with any info you can. Thanks! |
#6
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Pioneer M-790 amp adjustment
Comments inserted.
"James Sweet" wrote in message news:R_Nuc.33672$n_6.12557@attbi_s53... "Mark D. Zacharias" wrote in message ... The bias is set by soldering together or unsoldering specific adjacent foil pads near the bias transistors. No practical way of telling you which to use via these postings. For each bias transistor there is one pad pair which is soldered to increase bias, and one to decrease bias. If both were soldered, there would effectively be no change in bias. There are surface-mount transistors which can be shorted emitter-base to defeat the "blow" function. Assuming there is no other problems, the amp would fire up OK after replacing the outputs and 220 ohm resistors. The Blow line must measure less than 100mV under all conditions before it is safe to unsolder the surface-mount transistors mentioned above. ALWAYS bleed off the power supplies - all 4 of them - before any soldering etc. These supplies do not go down or bleed off when the power is removed, not even when unplugged. Post back if your still into doing this one, and I can get more info - I've done lots of these. Mark Z. Oh joy, if I'd known how much hassle this would be I wouldn't have ordered parts, oh well. Now that I'm into it I may as well see if I can finish. So let me get this straight, the "protection" circuit *intentionally* blows the output transistors?! What the hell were they thinking?? Yeah - their engineers should have gone to jail for this one. The "protection" circuit monitors the output of a voltage divider, the output of which is zero under normal circumstances. If the trigger line goes over about 100 mV, a destructive bias voltage is applied. Just to save the cost of a relay. In their all-in-one units, like the RX-570 and RX 590, etc, even a bad cassette motor can blow the outputs. Where are the 220 ohm resistors? I was looking casually for the usual largish resistors but I didn't see them. They are surface-mount types near each output transistor. You can measure across the E-B connection after the shorted transistors are removed. One or two will probably be good, a couple probably bad. If the resistor is bad when the amp's power is applied, the amp will blow again. The transistors involved in defeating the blow line are Q7401 and Q7406. They are surface-mount types, and they are pretty hard to find, but once you do, you can solder across the E-B junction of each one to defeat the BLOW function. After the amp is repaired you must remove the short and restore normal operation of this circuit. Otherwise someone could come along later and sue your ass if the thing burns their house down, which is quite conceivable on one of these if they fail and there's no "protection". Pioneer says NOT to use a variac, use a 100W light bulb across the main fuse instead. If the lamp glows bright for more than a split-second, cut power immediately. The way it should work if the amp is OK - the lamp glows for an instant as the main power supply caps charge, then goes out, then may glow dimly beginning a few seconds after that. I believe the blow line is monitored at pin 6 of the connector at the end of the longer board. Should read less than 100 mV with respect to ground. In a borderline situation, say 90 mV, a 15K resistor may be added from BLOW to ground to reduce the level a bit without defeating the circuit. What's the general procedure for setting the bias? This usually isn't necessary if the amp is OK, but there is NO emitter resistors to measure across, so you theoretically would have to break open a B+ line to monitor current. I haven't done this, just looked at the schem and eventually decided which pads to solder together to reduce bias and make it run cooler. As I said, this isn't usually necessary if the other stuff is OK. Mark Z. |
#7
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Pioneer M-790 amp adjustment
Mark, James, & Asimov:
Quite frankly when I get these models in my shop with blown outputs I usually recommend that the unit is not economically repairable. Proper component level repairs are not only very time consuming and are prone to "blowing" again for a variety of malfunctions .... also replacement power output modules are becoming quite scarce and again can be prone to blowing because of the very poor design.. In my opinion this is obviously not a shining example of Pioneer's engineering and manufacturing prowess...... gone are the days of the very well designed grand Pioneer "super" receivers of the 70's and 80's like the SX 1250 and other fine pieces. -- Best Regards, Daniel Sofie Electronics Supply & Repair - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - "Mark D. Zacharias" wrote in message ... Comments inserted. "James Sweet" wrote in message news:R_Nuc.33672$n_6.12557@attbi_s53... "Mark D. Zacharias" wrote in message ... The bias is set by soldering together or unsoldering specific adjacent foil pads near the bias transistors. No practical way of telling you which to use via these postings. For each bias transistor there is one pad pair which is soldered to increase bias, and one to decrease bias. If both were soldered, there would effectively be no change in bias. There are surface-mount transistors which can be shorted emitter-base to defeat the "blow" function. Assuming there is no other problems, the amp would fire up OK after replacing the outputs and 220 ohm resistors. The Blow line must measure less than 100mV under all conditions before it is safe to unsolder the surface-mount transistors mentioned above. ALWAYS bleed off the power supplies - all 4 of them - before any soldering etc. These supplies do not go down or bleed off when the power is removed, not even when unplugged. Post back if your still into doing this one, and I can get more info - I've done lots of these. Mark Z. Oh joy, if I'd known how much hassle this would be I wouldn't have ordered parts, oh well. Now that I'm into it I may as well see if I can finish. So let me get this straight, the "protection" circuit *intentionally* blows the output transistors?! What the hell were they thinking?? Yeah - their engineers should have gone to jail for this one. The "protection" circuit monitors the output of a voltage divider, the output of which is zero under normal circumstances. If the trigger line goes over about 100 mV, a destructive bias voltage is applied. Just to save the cost of a relay. In their all-in-one units, like the RX-570 and RX 590, etc, even a bad cassette motor can blow the outputs. Where are the 220 ohm resistors? I was looking casually for the usual largish resistors but I didn't see them. They are surface-mount types near each output transistor. You can measure across the E-B connection after the shorted transistors are removed. One or two will probably be good, a couple probably bad. If the resistor is bad when the amp's power is applied, the amp will blow again. The transistors involved in defeating the blow line are Q7401 and Q7406. They are surface-mount types, and they are pretty hard to find, but once you do, you can solder across the E-B junction of each one to defeat the BLOW function. After the amp is repaired you must remove the short and restore normal operation of this circuit. Otherwise someone could come along later and sue your ass if the thing burns their house down, which is quite conceivable on one of these if they fail and there's no "protection". Pioneer says NOT to use a variac, use a 100W light bulb across the main fuse instead. If the lamp glows bright for more than a split-second, cut power immediately. The way it should work if the amp is OK - the lamp glows for an instant as the main power supply caps charge, then goes out, then may glow dimly beginning a few seconds after that. I believe the blow line is monitored at pin 6 of the connector at the end of the longer board. Should read less than 100 mV with respect to ground. In a borderline situation, say 90 mV, a 15K resistor may be added from BLOW to ground to reduce the level a bit without defeating the circuit. What's the general procedure for setting the bias? This usually isn't necessary if the amp is OK, but there is NO emitter resistors to measure across, so you theoretically would have to break open a B+ line to monitor current. I haven't done this, just looked at the schem and eventually decided which pads to solder together to reduce bias and make it run cooler. As I said, this isn't usually necessary if the other stuff is OK. Mark Z. |
#8
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Pioneer M-790 amp adjustment
"sofie" wrote in message ... Mark, James, & Asimov: Quite frankly when I get these models in my shop with blown outputs I usually recommend that the unit is not economically repairable. Proper component level repairs are not only very time consuming and are prone to "blowing" again for a variety of malfunctions .... also replacement power output modules are becoming quite scarce and again can be prone to blowing because of the very poor design.. In my opinion this is obviously not a shining example of Pioneer's engineering and manufacturing prowess...... gone are the days of the very well designed grand Pioneer "super" receivers of the 70's and 80's like the SX 1250 and other fine pieces. -- Best Regards, Daniel Sofie Electronics Supply & Repair - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Well I'll give this ridiculous contraption a shot, and if it blows up again it's off to the recycler. I'm gonna bypass that "protection" circuit for good and add some fuses instead, no way it's gonna burn the house down. |
#9
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Pioneer M-790 amp adjustment
I still make good money on these - I just educate the customers WITHOUT FAIL
regarding speaker wires etc. Re-do's haven't been a problem for this reason. The "prop" I use is a AA battery and a small speaker with wire. I demonstrate how the condition of the wire should be, then "POP" the speaker with the battery. Have the customer check theirs likewise, and if they hear no pop, don't hook up that speaker / wire. You can almost see the light come on above their heads. They really seem to get it for a change. Mark Z. -- Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam have rendered my regular e-mail address useless. "sofie" wrote in message ... Mark, James, & Asimov: Quite frankly when I get these models in my shop with blown outputs I usually recommend that the unit is not economically repairable. Proper component level repairs are not only very time consuming and are prone to "blowing" again for a variety of malfunctions .... also replacement power output modules are becoming quite scarce and again can be prone to blowing because of the very poor design.. In my opinion this is obviously not a shining example of Pioneer's engineering and manufacturing prowess...... gone are the days of the very well designed grand Pioneer "super" receivers of the 70's and 80's like the SX 1250 and other fine pieces. -- Best Regards, Daniel Sofie Electronics Supply & Repair - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - "Mark D. Zacharias" wrote in message ... Comments inserted. "James Sweet" wrote in message news:R_Nuc.33672$n_6.12557@attbi_s53... "Mark D. Zacharias" wrote in message ... The bias is set by soldering together or unsoldering specific adjacent foil pads near the bias transistors. No practical way of telling you which to use via these postings. For each bias transistor there is one pad pair which is soldered to increase bias, and one to decrease bias. If both were soldered, there would effectively be no change in bias. There are surface-mount transistors which can be shorted emitter-base to defeat the "blow" function. Assuming there is no other problems, the amp would fire up OK after replacing the outputs and 220 ohm resistors. The Blow line must measure less than 100mV under all conditions before it is safe to unsolder the surface-mount transistors mentioned above. ALWAYS bleed off the power supplies - all 4 of them - before any soldering etc. These supplies do not go down or bleed off when the power is removed, not even when unplugged. Post back if your still into doing this one, and I can get more info - I've done lots of these. Mark Z. Oh joy, if I'd known how much hassle this would be I wouldn't have ordered parts, oh well. Now that I'm into it I may as well see if I can finish. So let me get this straight, the "protection" circuit *intentionally* blows the output transistors?! What the hell were they thinking?? Yeah - their engineers should have gone to jail for this one. The "protection" circuit monitors the output of a voltage divider, the output of which is zero under normal circumstances. If the trigger line goes over about 100 mV, a destructive bias voltage is applied. Just to save the cost of a relay. In their all-in-one units, like the RX-570 and RX 590, etc, even a bad cassette motor can blow the outputs. Where are the 220 ohm resistors? I was looking casually for the usual largish resistors but I didn't see them. They are surface-mount types near each output transistor. You can measure across the E-B connection after the shorted transistors are removed. One or two will probably be good, a couple probably bad. If the resistor is bad when the amp's power is applied, the amp will blow again. The transistors involved in defeating the blow line are Q7401 and Q7406. They are surface-mount types, and they are pretty hard to find, but once you do, you can solder across the E-B junction of each one to defeat the BLOW function. After the amp is repaired you must remove the short and restore normal operation of this circuit. Otherwise someone could come along later and sue your ass if the thing burns their house down, which is quite conceivable on one of these if they fail and there's no "protection". Pioneer says NOT to use a variac, use a 100W light bulb across the main fuse instead. If the lamp glows bright for more than a split-second, cut power immediately. The way it should work if the amp is OK - the lamp glows for an instant as the main power supply caps charge, then goes out, then may glow dimly beginning a few seconds after that. I believe the blow line is monitored at pin 6 of the connector at the end of the longer board. Should read less than 100 mV with respect to ground. In a borderline situation, say 90 mV, a 15K resistor may be added from BLOW to ground to reduce the level a bit without defeating the circuit. What's the general procedure for setting the bias? This usually isn't necessary if the amp is OK, but there is NO emitter resistors to measure across, so you theoretically would have to break open a B+ line to monitor current. I haven't done this, just looked at the schem and eventually decided which pads to solder together to reduce bias and make it run cooler. As I said, this isn't usually necessary if the other stuff is OK. Mark Z. |
#10
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Pioneer M-790 amp adjustment
James,
You can send the module to me for repair if you like - I have an M-4000 "test bed" which uses the same module. Mark Z. -- Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam have rendered my regular e-mail address useless. "James Sweet" wrote in message news:4LUuc.27752$js4.7898@attbi_s51... "sofie" wrote in message ... Mark, James, & Asimov: Quite frankly when I get these models in my shop with blown outputs I usually recommend that the unit is not economically repairable. Proper component level repairs are not only very time consuming and are prone to "blowing" again for a variety of malfunctions .... also replacement power output modules are becoming quite scarce and again can be prone to blowing because of the very poor design.. In my opinion this is obviously not a shining example of Pioneer's engineering and manufacturing prowess...... gone are the days of the very well designed grand Pioneer "super" receivers of the 70's and 80's like the SX 1250 and other fine pieces. -- Best Regards, Daniel Sofie Electronics Supply & Repair - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Well I'll give this ridiculous contraption a shot, and if it blows up again it's off to the recycler. I'm gonna bypass that "protection" circuit for good and add some fuses instead, no way it's gonna burn the house down. |
#11
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Pioneer M-790 amp adjustment
James,
I really recommend NOT leaving the blow function disabled. You're just asking for trouble. Lots of customers, when the 8A fuse blows, just keep replacing it as if that will fix it, and when that doesn't work, even try bigger fuses. I know it's tempting but don't do it. Bad idea. Mark Z. -- Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam have rendered my regular e-mail address useless. "Mark D. Zacharias" wrote in message ... I still make good money on these - I just educate the customers WITHOUT FAIL regarding speaker wires etc. Re-do's haven't been a problem for this reason. The "prop" I use is a AA battery and a small speaker with wire. I demonstrate how the condition of the wire should be, then "POP" the speaker with the battery. Have the customer check theirs likewise, and if they hear no pop, don't hook up that speaker / wire. You can almost see the light come on above their heads. They really seem to get it for a change. Mark Z. -- Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam have rendered my regular e-mail address useless. "sofie" wrote in message ... Mark, James, & Asimov: Quite frankly when I get these models in my shop with blown outputs I usually recommend that the unit is not economically repairable. Proper component level repairs are not only very time consuming and are prone to "blowing" again for a variety of malfunctions .... also replacement power output modules are becoming quite scarce and again can be prone to blowing because of the very poor design.. In my opinion this is obviously not a shining example of Pioneer's engineering and manufacturing prowess...... gone are the days of the very well designed grand Pioneer "super" receivers of the 70's and 80's like the SX 1250 and other fine pieces. -- Best Regards, Daniel Sofie Electronics Supply & Repair - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - "Mark D. Zacharias" wrote in message ... Comments inserted. "James Sweet" wrote in message news:R_Nuc.33672$n_6.12557@attbi_s53... "Mark D. Zacharias" wrote in message ... The bias is set by soldering together or unsoldering specific adjacent foil pads near the bias transistors. No practical way of telling you which to use via these postings. For each bias transistor there is one pad pair which is soldered to increase bias, and one to decrease bias. If both were soldered, there would effectively be no change in bias. There are surface-mount transistors which can be shorted emitter-base to defeat the "blow" function. Assuming there is no other problems, the amp would fire up OK after replacing the outputs and 220 ohm resistors. The Blow line must measure less than 100mV under all conditions before it is safe to unsolder the surface-mount transistors mentioned above. ALWAYS bleed off the power supplies - all 4 of them - before any soldering etc. These supplies do not go down or bleed off when the power is removed, not even when unplugged. Post back if your still into doing this one, and I can get more info - I've done lots of these. Mark Z. Oh joy, if I'd known how much hassle this would be I wouldn't have ordered parts, oh well. Now that I'm into it I may as well see if I can finish. So let me get this straight, the "protection" circuit *intentionally* blows the output transistors?! What the hell were they thinking?? Yeah - their engineers should have gone to jail for this one. The "protection" circuit monitors the output of a voltage divider, the output of which is zero under normal circumstances. If the trigger line goes over about 100 mV, a destructive bias voltage is applied. Just to save the cost of a relay. In their all-in-one units, like the RX-570 and RX 590, etc, even a bad cassette motor can blow the outputs. Where are the 220 ohm resistors? I was looking casually for the usual largish resistors but I didn't see them. They are surface-mount types near each output transistor. You can measure across the E-B connection after the shorted transistors are removed. One or two will probably be good, a couple probably bad. If the resistor is bad when the amp's power is applied, the amp will blow again. The transistors involved in defeating the blow line are Q7401 and Q7406. They are surface-mount types, and they are pretty hard to find, but once you do, you can solder across the E-B junction of each one to defeat the BLOW function. After the amp is repaired you must remove the short and restore normal operation of this circuit. Otherwise someone could come along later and sue your ass if the thing burns their house down, which is quite conceivable on one of these if they fail and there's no "protection". Pioneer says NOT to use a variac, use a 100W light bulb across the main fuse instead. If the lamp glows bright for more than a split-second, cut power immediately. The way it should work if the amp is OK - the lamp glows for an instant as the main power supply caps charge, then goes out, then may glow dimly beginning a few seconds after that. I believe the blow line is monitored at pin 6 of the connector at the end of the longer board. Should read less than 100 mV with respect to ground. In a borderline situation, say 90 mV, a 15K resistor may be added from BLOW to ground to reduce the level a bit without defeating the circuit. What's the general procedure for setting the bias? This usually isn't necessary if the amp is OK, but there is NO emitter resistors to measure across, so you theoretically would have to break open a B+ line to monitor current. I haven't done this, just looked at the schem and eventually decided which pads to solder together to reduce bias and make it run cooler. As I said, this isn't usually necessary if the other stuff is OK. Mark Z. |
#12
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Pioneer M-790 amp adjustment
"sofie" bravely wrote to "All" (31 May 04 19:41:45)
--- on the heady topic of " Pioneer M-790 amp adjustment" Power amps often require a lot of patience in testing and therefor take "a lot of time" to do right. Otherwise one ends up with a pile of expensive burnt replacements and have to start all over again. As far as I'm concerned if a consumer amp can't play into any kind of load, including a short circuit, without damage then its design is flawed. Modules are very bad for this. Fusing their output might help. so From: "sofie" so Mark, James, & Asimov: so Quite frankly when I get these models in my shop with blown outputs I so usually recommend that the unit is not economically repairable. so Proper component level repairs are not only very time consuming and so are prone to "blowing" again for a variety of malfunctions .... also so replacement power output modules are becoming quite scarce and again so can be prone to blowing because of the very poor design.. so In my opinion this is obviously not a shining example of Pioneer's so engineering and manufacturing prowess...... gone are the days of the so very well designed grand Pioneer "super" receivers of the 70's and 80's so like the SX 1250 and other fine pieces. .... A fail-safe circuit will destroy others. |
#13
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Pioneer M-790 amp adjustment
Asimov:
Only very, very, very, very few amplifier designs can play into a short-circuit without damage. Even expensive and well designed power amps can have catastrophic failures when loaded into a short-circuit. As you know, fusing the speaker outputs will help protect the speakers from the dc rails if the output stages short out, but the amp will be already fried. It is my frequent observation that the Pioneer design that we are discussing is not tolerant of much at all and is prone to failure when other amps keep on working. It is my opinion that putting expensive repair money into a flawed design is a waste and would be better put to use in purchasing a decent Yamaha or similar receiver. -- Best Regards, Daniel Sofie Electronics Supply & Repair - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - "Asimov" wrote in message ... "sofie" bravely wrote to "All" (31 May 04 19:41:45) --- on the heady topic of " Pioneer M-790 amp adjustment" Power amps often require a lot of patience in testing and therefor take "a lot of time" to do right. Otherwise one ends up with a pile of expensive burnt replacements and have to start all over again. As far as I'm concerned if a consumer amp can't play into any kind of load, including a short circuit, without damage then its design is flawed. Modules are very bad for this. Fusing their output might help. so From: "sofie" so Mark, James, & Asimov: so Quite frankly when I get these models in my shop with blown outputs I so usually recommend that the unit is not economically repairable. so Proper component level repairs are not only very time consuming and so are prone to "blowing" again for a variety of malfunctions .... also so replacement power output modules are becoming quite scarce and again so can be prone to blowing because of the very poor design.. so In my opinion this is obviously not a shining example of Pioneer's so engineering and manufacturing prowess...... gone are the days of the so very well designed grand Pioneer "super" receivers of the 70's and 80's so like the SX 1250 and other fine pieces. ... A fail-safe circuit will destroy others. |
#14
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Pioneer M-790 amp adjustment
"Mark D. Zacharias" wrote in message ... James, I really recommend NOT leaving the blow function disabled. You're just asking for trouble. Lots of customers, when the 8A fuse blows, just keep replacing it as if that will fix it, and when that doesn't work, even try bigger fuses. I know it's tempting but don't do it. Bad idea. Mark Z. Well the owner of this amp is one of my friends and he knows better, if he fries something that's his problem as this is the first and last time I'm repairing this particular unit. |
#15
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Pioneer M-790 amp adjustment
"Sofie" bravely wrote to "All" (01 Jun 04 15:23:29)
--- on the heady topic of " Pioneer M-790 amp adjustment" So From: "Sofie" So Asimov: So Only very, very, very, very few amplifier designs can play into a So short-circuit without damage. Even expensive and well designed power So amps can have catastrophic failures when loaded into a short-circuit. So As you know, fusing the speaker outputs will help protect the speakers So from the dc rails if the output stages short out, but the amp will be So already fried. I don't disagree but I was just making a case for Utopia. The most common mistake to be found in amp designs is that there should always be some sort of limiting resistor on the base drive to limit runaway Icbo when the collector to base junction breaks down. If currents are limited when a transistor is driven into thermal breakdown it can often recover after cooling down with perhaps only a small reduction in Hfe. I have an early 60's amplifier with Ge transistor outputs that when overheated will do this. The first time it happened I thought I had fried it good but it had only blown the line fuse. It didn't even kill the rectifiers. So It is my frequent observation that the Pioneer design that we are So discussing is not tolerant of much at all and is prone to failure when So other amps keep on working. If it was for myself I would modify it to correct the problem for example as was suggested or perhaps further mods but only if it was worth it performance wise. Many consumer amps are too noisy even with moderately sensitive speakers. I try for 20db spl or less noise floor. Basically I like near silence when I stick my ear to the speakers. So It is my opinion that putting expensive So repair money into a flawed design is a waste and would be better put to So use in purchasing a decent Yamaha or similar receiver. Yamaha equipment is better indeed but not perfect as they often have minor irritating problems. Their customer relations is great though. So "Asimov" wrote in So message ... "sofie" bravely wrote to "All" (31 May 04 19:41:45) --- on the heady topic of " Pioneer M-790 amp adjustment" Power amps often require a lot of patience in testing and therefor take "a lot of time" to do right. Otherwise one ends up with a pile of expensive burnt replacements and have to start all over again. As far as I'm concerned if a consumer amp can't play into any kind of load, including a short circuit, without damage then its design is flawed. Modules are very bad for this. Fusing their output might help. .... Batteries not included. |
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Pioneer M-790 amp adjustment
Sofie wrote:
Asimov: Only very, very, very, very few amplifier designs can play into a short-circuit without damage. Even expensive and well designed power amps can have catastrophic failures when loaded into a short-circuit. As you know, fusing the speaker outputs will help protect the speakers from the dc rails if the output stages short out, but the amp will be already fried. It is my frequent observation that the Pioneer design that we are discussing is not tolerant of much at all and is prone to failure when other amps keep on working. It is my opinion that putting expensive repair money into a flawed design is a waste and would be better put to use in purchasing a decent Yamaha or similar receiver. snip Granted the above, but I remember a review of the Crown DC-300 in the 70's...quote as nearly as I recall was "...a screwdriver across the output binding posts at full power elicited some pretty impressive sparks, but no damage..." They don't make 'em like the used to. jak |
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Pioneer M-790 amp adjustment
Sofie is 100% correct. With respect to the DC300, it was reputed to be able
to "drive a nail", and was a very bulletproof, or should I say idiotproof amp. Having used many of them under many varying load conditions, its reputation was well deserved, but even the DC300 could not tolerate a dead short for more than an instant, if that. And if you did blow it up it could be a bear to fix. The pioneer design discussed here leaves much to be desired in terms of reliability, repairability, stability, and durability. We see units frequently that have been blown by users shorting the output leads and also that seem to fail under normal use. I tend to agree that repairing them is often not a good choice. Leonard "jakdedert" wrote in message ... Sofie wrote: Asimov: Only very, very, very, very few amplifier designs can play into a short-circuit without damage. Even expensive and well designed power amps can have catastrophic failures when loaded into a short-circuit. As you know, fusing the speaker outputs will help protect the speakers from the dc rails if the output stages short out, but the amp will be already fried. It is my frequent observation that the Pioneer design that we are discussing is not tolerant of much at all and is prone to failure when other amps keep on working. It is my opinion that putting expensive repair money into a flawed design is a waste and would be better put to use in purchasing a decent Yamaha or similar receiver. snip Granted the above, but I remember a review of the Crown DC-300 in the 70's...quote as nearly as I recall was "...a screwdriver across the output binding posts at full power elicited some pretty impressive sparks, but no damage..." They don't make 'em like the used to. jak |
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Pioneer M-790 amp adjustment
On Monday, 31 May 2004 10:32:42 -500, "Asimov"
wrote: "James Sweet" bravely wrote to "All" (31 May 04 07:07:00) --- on the heady topic of "Pioneer M-790 amp adjustment" JS Reply-To: "James Sweet" JS From: "James Sweet" JS I've got a Pioneer M-790 here with all 8 power output transistors JS blown. I found a number of cracked solder joints, is there anything JS else I should check on this particular amp before I install new JS transistors and try it out? Also how do I adjust the bias? I only see JS one pot in the whole amp. Yes, check the bias circuit "very" carefully and use resistors to limit current in the power transistors during testing. The value of these protection resistors depends on the supply and current but for say 40 volts with 100mA, something like 100 to 330 ohms at 7W+. Determine what is a safe value for this amp but it is very advisable to use them for initial testing just in case. Bias is often permanently set in some models and thus one must use oem matched transistors for these or they won't track thermally. The single pot is likely to adjust a regulated supply voltage: don't touch it. Do some tracing starting from the wiper and determine its function. Be very careful to check the driver circuits as well because when the output transistors go they tend to inject a heavy current back there. It's like a chain reaction which propagates backwards from the output. Well, this is probably not enough to help but I do wish you good luck! A*s*i*m*o*v ... A fail-safe circuit will destroy others. When these came onto the market the service rep reccomended strongly that you use a 60 watt lightbulb in line with the ac for testing, and definatelt NOT a variac. The light bulb will burn bright at turn on then settle to about half at idle or low volume. A constant bright lite after repair usually means you just saved a bunch of money. Go back and fix the cause. |
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Pioneer M-790 amp adjustment
Hi Jim, how are you doing with that amp?
I have a similar model sitting on the shelf that I was going to TRY to fix a couple of years ago, and haven't gotten back to it.. yet, heheh. I did get a complete new power section for it. The service manual suggests putting some power resistors in the circuits temporarily to check the bias. If you'd want more info, I'll look it up. I'm sure Mark's steering you in the right direction, since he's repaired quite a few of 'em. Cheers WB ............... "James Sweet" wrote in message newsQAuc.22391$4A6.20874@attbi_s52... I've got a Pioneer M-790 here with all 8 power output transistors blown. I found a number of cracked solder joints, is there anything else I should check on this particular amp before I install new transistors and try it out? Also how do I adjust the bias? I only see one pot in the whole amp. |
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Pioneer M-790 amp adjustment
"Wild Bill" wrote in message ... Hi Jim, how are you doing with that amp? I have a similar model sitting on the shelf that I was going to TRY to fix a couple of years ago, and haven't gotten back to it.. yet, heheh. I did get a complete new power section for it. The service manual suggests putting some power resistors in the circuits temporarily to check the bias. If you'd want more info, I'll look it up. I'm sure Mark's steering you in the right direction, since he's repaired quite a few of 'em. Cheers WB .............. I just got the parts the other day, haven't had a chance to look at it yet. |
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