Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems.

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Old December 31st 15, 12:10 AM posted to sci.electronics.repair
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Default Diffferent techniques in troubleshooting

I remember working for a company that imported cheap radios. I took my seat with the other 20 or so techs repairing radios. Most quotas were in the 20 range while I was only repairing 3 or 5 radios a day. Thinking I would be handed my pink slip I asked the tech next to myself how he was repairing so many radios? He pointed to my draw where I had saves some diagrams off the back of some of the radios. There is your problem he said. You are over thinking wasting time. You can measure 6 transistors faster than you can think if they are RF , audio or IF. In short stop thinking and start measuring. When I looked around I could see that the other tech were measuring not thinking. I took his advise and my quota when up from 3 a day to 10. A lesson I did not forget and still use today. I would like to know if others have found this to be true.

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Old December 31st 15, 02:09 AM posted to sci.electronics.repair
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Default Diffferent techniques in troubleshooting

On 12/30/2015 4:10 PM, John Heath wrote:
I remember working for a company that imported cheap radios. I took my seat with the other 20 or so techs repairing radios. Most quotas were in the 20 range while I was only repairing 3 or 5 radios a day. Thinking I would be handed my pink slip I asked the tech next to myself how he was repairing so many radios? He pointed to my draw where I had saves some diagrams off the back of some of the radios. There is your problem he said. You are over thinking wasting time. You can measure 6 transistors faster than you can think if they are RF , audio or IF. In short stop thinking and start measuring. When I looked around I could see that the other tech were measuring not thinking. I took his advise and my quota when up from 3 a day to 10. A lesson I did not forget and still use today. I would like to know if others have found this to be true.


Well, in my field (arcade game repairs - video, pinball, etc.) we (the
industry) used to trouble shoot monitors looking for the exact problem.
Then some lazy tech started simply replacing all the electrolytic
capacitors in the monitors - and the service rate went from a few
monitors a day to five or more. In 90% of the cases replacing the caps
and the HOT (and fuse) fixed most problems, changing the caps, HOT and
LOPT/Flyback fixed most of the rest. Leaving 5% as dogs that one could
spend a day on - if the customer thought it was worth the money.

Mr & Mrs. Gilbreth (Cheaper By The Dozen) who in their Time Management
process would often watch the laziest employee as he (she) would usually
have the best way of doing the job with a minimum of effort or fuss.

John :-#)#

--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
(604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."
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Old December 31st 15, 03:07 AM posted to sci.electronics.repair
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Default Diffferent techniques in troubleshooting

In article ,
John Heath wrote:

I remember working for a company that imported cheap radios. I took my seat
with the other 20 or so techs repairing radios. Most quotas were in the 20
range while I was only repairing 3 or 5 radios a day. Thinking I would be
handed my pink slip I asked the tech next to myself how he was repairing so
many radios? He pointed to my draw where I had saves some diagrams off the
back of some of the radios. There is your problem he said. You are over
thinking wasting time. You can measure 6 transistors faster than you can
think if they are RF , audio or IF. In short stop thinking and start
measuring. When I looked around I could see that the other tech were
measuring not thinking. I took his advise and my quota when up from 3 a day
to 10. A lesson I did not forget and still use today. I would like to know if
others have found this to be true.


John-

What do you do when all the transistors are good?

Back in the 60s I worked for a year as an electronics troubleshooter.
As I recall, the quota was testing 80 circuit modules per day. The
quota was how many modules were tested, not how successful was the
troubleshooting of failed modules!

Repair records traveled with each module. I noticed that other
technicians would trace a signal, and have the first transistor replaced
where the signal stopped. Sometimes the same transistor would be
replaced multiple times. Once I noticed that the problem was actually
caused by a wrong part, a backwards diode or parts mounted in the wrong
holes, I learned to visually check the modules before testing. My quota
increased dramatically.

I suppose a quota system is necessary, but it does encourage shortcuts.

Fred
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Old December 31st 15, 04:20 AM posted to sci.electronics.repair
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Posts: 3,454
Default Diffferent techniques in troubleshooting


"John Robertson" wrote in message
...
Well, in my field (arcade game repairs - video, pinball, etc.) we (the
industry) used to trouble shoot monitors looking for the exact problem.
Then some lazy tech started simply replacing all the electrolytic
capacitors in the monitors - and the service rate went from a few monitors
a day to five or more. In 90% of the cases replacing the caps and the HOT
(and fuse) fixed most problems, changing the caps, HOT and LOPT/Flyback
fixed most of the rest. Leaving 5% as dogs that one could spend a day on -
if the customer thought it was worth the money.


As always there are many ways to attack a problem. If equipment has a
history of some part or parts failing , look at that first. Especially if
it is easy to replace those parts and they do not cost very much. Then if
it still does not work go on to other methods.
At work we had some equipment that 99.9% of the time it was one of two
things, About 80% was a relay, the other large percentage was a circuit
board that we did not repair in house, but changed out. The relay was easy
as it just plugged in. Took about 5 seconds to change. The board took about
30 minuits to change. For the ones that knew the equipment would take one
voltage reading before changing the relay, for ones that did not know the
equipment and called some one they were told to change the relay.

For something like radios ( I repaired the CB radios back when they cost
around $ 200 and up ) I used the devide by two method if nothing stood out
at first glance. Start about half way and inject a signal or listen for a
signal. From that point go about half way to the end and so on.



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Old December 31st 15, 06:19 AM posted to sci.electronics.repair
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Posts: 41
Default Diffferent techniques in troubleshooting

On Wednesday, December 30, 2015 at 9:09:28 PM UTC-5, John Robertson wrote:
On 12/30/2015 4:10 PM, John Heath wrote:
I remember working for a company that imported cheap radios. I took my seat with the other 20 or so techs repairing radios. Most quotas were in the 20 range while I was only repairing 3 or 5 radios a day. Thinking I would be handed my pink slip I asked the tech next to myself how he was repairing so many radios? He pointed to my draw where I had saves some diagrams off the back of some of the radios. There is your problem he said. You are over thinking wasting time. You can measure 6 transistors faster than you can think if they are RF , audio or IF. In short stop thinking and start measuring. When I looked around I could see that the other tech were measuring not thinking. I took his advise and my quota when up from 3 a day to 10. A lesson I did not forget and still use today. I would like to know if others have found this to be true.


Well, in my field (arcade game repairs - video, pinball, etc.) we (the
industry) used to trouble shoot monitors looking for the exact problem.
Then some lazy tech started simply replacing all the electrolytic
capacitors in the monitors - and the service rate went from a few
monitors a day to five or more. In 90% of the cases replacing the caps
and the HOT (and fuse) fixed most problems, changing the caps, HOT and
LOPT/Flyback fixed most of the rest. Leaving 5% as dogs that one could
spend a day on - if the customer thought it was worth the money.

Mr & Mrs. Gilbreth (Cheaper By The Dozen) who in their Time Management
process would often watch the laziest employee as he (she) would usually
have the best way of doing the job with a minimum of effort or fuss.

John :-#)#

--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
(604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."


A friend of mine has an old school arcade machine. No CPUs or monitors in this puppy. Just a pile of relays and paddle wheels. Great stuff. I could not find the tilt detector?

I found a short cut for flat electrolytic condensers in monitors and switching power supplies. First check if condensers that are rounded on top. Failing this use an impedance meter to measure the condenser impedance in circuit without un soldering it. Not un soldering it saves a lot of time. Any condenser with a impedance higher than a few ohms at 10 KHz and you found your problem. The down side is they do not sell condenser in circuit impedance meters so you have to make it yourself. Not a big deal as it just requires 10 KHz at a low impedance with about 100 m volts then monitor the current..




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Old December 31st 15, 06:26 AM posted to sci.electronics.repair
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Posts: 188
Default Diffferent techniques in troubleshooting

On 31/12/2015 2:19 PM, John Heath wrote:
On Wednesday, December 30, 2015 at 9:09:28 PM UTC-5, John Robertson wrote:
On 12/30/2015 4:10 PM, John Heath wrote:
I remember working for a company that imported cheap radios. I took my seat with the other 20 or so techs repairing radios. Most quotas were in the 20 range while I was only repairing 3 or 5 radios a day. Thinking I would be handed my pink slip I asked the tech next to myself how he was repairing so many radios? He pointed to my draw where I had saves some diagrams off the back of some of the radios. There is your problem he said. You are over thinking wasting time. You can measure 6 transistors faster than you can think if they are RF , audio or IF. In short stop thinking and start measuring. When I looked around I could see that the other tech were measuring not thinking. I took his advise and my quota when up from 3 a day to 10. A lesson I did not forget and still use today. I would like to know if others have found this to be true.


Well, in my field (arcade game repairs - video, pinball, etc.) we (the
industry) used to trouble shoot monitors looking for the exact problem.
Then some lazy tech started simply replacing all the electrolytic
capacitors in the monitors - and the service rate went from a few
monitors a day to five or more. In 90% of the cases replacing the caps
and the HOT (and fuse) fixed most problems, changing the caps, HOT and
LOPT/Flyback fixed most of the rest. Leaving 5% as dogs that one could
spend a day on - if the customer thought it was worth the money.

Mr & Mrs. Gilbreth (Cheaper By The Dozen) who in their Time Management
process would often watch the laziest employee as he (she) would usually
have the best way of doing the job with a minimum of effort or fuss.

John :-#)#

--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
(604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."


A friend of mine has an old school arcade machine. No CPUs or monitors in this puppy. Just a pile of relays and paddle wheels. Great stuff. I could not find the tilt detector?

I found a short cut for flat electrolytic condensers in monitors and switching power supplies. First check if condensers that are rounded on top. Failing this use an impedance meter to measure the condenser impedance in circuit without un soldering it. Not un soldering it saves a lot of time. Any condenser with a impedance higher than a few ohms at 10 KHz and you found your problem. The down side is they do not sell condenser in circuit impedance meters so you have to make it yourself. Not a big deal as it just requires 10 KHz at a low impedance with about 100 m volts then monitor the current.


Google "blue meter" or "Bob Parkers ESR meter".
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Old December 31st 15, 07:05 AM posted to sci.electronics.repair
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First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Dec 2015
Posts: 41
Default Diffferent techniques in troubleshooting

On Wednesday, December 30, 2015 at 10:07:51 PM UTC-5, Fred McKenzie wrote:
In article ,
John Heath wrote:

I remember working for a company that imported cheap radios. I took my seat
with the other 20 or so techs repairing radios. Most quotas were in the 20
range while I was only repairing 3 or 5 radios a day. Thinking I would be
handed my pink slip I asked the tech next to myself how he was repairing so
many radios? He pointed to my draw where I had saves some diagrams off the
back of some of the radios. There is your problem he said. You are over
thinking wasting time. You can measure 6 transistors faster than you can
think if they are RF , audio or IF. In short stop thinking and start
measuring. When I looked around I could see that the other tech were
measuring not thinking. I took his advise and my quota when up from 3 a day
to 10. A lesson I did not forget and still use today. I would like to know if
others have found this to be true.


John-

What do you do when all the transistors are good?


Good question. While the ohms meter is still in your hands from measuring the transistors you touch the volume control. If you hear a click from the speaker the audio is okay. Then the IF and RF with a RF injector probe. With practice it all happens so fast that you quickly know where the problem is.. If it turns out to be a dog then the golden rule is switch your dog for someone else's dog. Often my dog is an easy fix for someone else and their dog is an easy fix for me. Not sure why it is like this. Maybe taking a fresh look at a problem from different shoes.

Back in the 60s I worked for a year as an electronics troubleshooter.
As I recall, the quota was testing 80 circuit modules per day. The
quota was how many modules were tested, not how successful was the
troubleshooting of failed modules!

Repair records traveled with each module. I noticed that other
technicians would trace a signal, and have the first transistor replaced
where the signal stopped. Sometimes the same transistor would be
replaced multiple times. Once I noticed that the problem was actually
caused by a wrong part, a backwards diode or parts mounted in the wrong
holes, I learned to visually check the modules before testing. My quota
increased dramatically.

I suppose a quota system is necessary, but it does encourage shortcuts.

Fred


Yes I know what you mean. With new boards anything can be wrong. Memorizing all the resistors . diodes and transistors can save a lot of time by quickly troubleshooting with your eyes only.
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Old December 31st 15, 07:16 AM posted to sci.electronics.repair
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Default Diffferent techniques in troubleshooting

On Thursday, December 31, 2015 at 1:27:12 AM UTC-5, Rheilly Phoull wrote:
On 31/12/2015 2:19 PM, John Heath wrote:
On Wednesday, December 30, 2015 at 9:09:28 PM UTC-5, John Robertson wrote:
On 12/30/2015 4:10 PM, John Heath wrote:
I remember working for a company that imported cheap radios. I took my seat with the other 20 or so techs repairing radios. Most quotas were in the 20 range while I was only repairing 3 or 5 radios a day. Thinking I would be handed my pink slip I asked the tech next to myself how he was repairing so many radios? He pointed to my draw where I had saves some diagrams off the back of some of the radios. There is your problem he said. You are over thinking wasting time. You can measure 6 transistors faster than you can think if they are RF , audio or IF. In short stop thinking and start measuring. When I looked around I could see that the other tech were measuring not thinking. I took his advise and my quota when up from 3 a day to 10. A lesson I did not forget and still use today. I would like to know if others have found this to be true.


Well, in my field (arcade game repairs - video, pinball, etc.) we (the
industry) used to trouble shoot monitors looking for the exact problem..
Then some lazy tech started simply replacing all the electrolytic
capacitors in the monitors - and the service rate went from a few
monitors a day to five or more. In 90% of the cases replacing the caps
and the HOT (and fuse) fixed most problems, changing the caps, HOT and
LOPT/Flyback fixed most of the rest. Leaving 5% as dogs that one could
spend a day on - if the customer thought it was worth the money.

Mr & Mrs. Gilbreth (Cheaper By The Dozen) who in their Time Management
process would often watch the laziest employee as he (she) would usually
have the best way of doing the job with a minimum of effort or fuss.

John :-#)#

--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
(604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."


A friend of mine has an old school arcade machine. No CPUs or monitors in this puppy. Just a pile of relays and paddle wheels. Great stuff. I could not find the tilt detector?

I found a short cut for flat electrolytic condensers in monitors and switching power supplies. First check if condensers that are rounded on top. Failing this use an impedance meter to measure the condenser impedance in circuit without un soldering it. Not un soldering it saves a lot of time. Any condenser with a impedance higher than a few ohms at 10 KHz and you found your problem. The down side is they do not sell condenser in circuit impedance meters so you have to make it yourself. Not a big deal as it just requires 10 KHz at a low impedance with about 100 m volts then monitor the current.


Google "blue meter" or "Bob Parkers ESR meter".


Nice find. Way better than my home brew ESR.
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Old December 31st 15, 02:20 PM posted to sci.electronics.repair
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Posts: 200
Default Diffferent techniques in troubleshooting

use the Chevy Method....measure then replace the suspect area.

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Old December 31st 15, 04:03 PM posted to sci.electronics.repair
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Default Diffferent techniques in troubleshooting

On 12/30/2015 10:26 PM, Rheilly Phoull wrote:
On 31/12/2015 2:19 PM, John Heath wrote:
On Wednesday, December 30, 2015 at 9:09:28 PM UTC-5, John Robertson
wrote:
On 12/30/2015 4:10 PM, John Heath wrote:
I remember working for a company that imported cheap radios. I took
my seat with the other 20 or so techs repairing radios. Most quotas
were in the 20 range while I was only repairing 3 or 5 radios a day.
Thinking I would be handed my pink slip I asked the tech next to
myself how he was repairing so many radios? He pointed to my draw
where I had saves some diagrams off the back of some of the radios.
There is your problem he said. You are over thinking wasting time.
You can measure 6 transistors faster than you can think if they are
RF , audio or IF. In short stop thinking and start measuring. When I
looked around I could see that the other tech were measuring not
thinking. I took his advise and my quota when up from 3 a day to 10.
A lesson I did not forget and still use today. I would like to know
if others have found this to be true.


Well, in my field (arcade game repairs - video, pinball, etc.) we (the
industry) used to trouble shoot monitors looking for the exact problem.
Then some lazy tech started simply replacing all the electrolytic
capacitors in the monitors - and the service rate went from a few
monitors a day to five or more. In 90% of the cases replacing the caps
and the HOT (and fuse) fixed most problems, changing the caps, HOT and
LOPT/Flyback fixed most of the rest. Leaving 5% as dogs that one could
spend a day on - if the customer thought it was worth the money.

Mr & Mrs. Gilbreth (Cheaper By The Dozen) who in their Time Management
process would often watch the laziest employee as he (she) would usually
have the best way of doing the job with a minimum of effort or fuss.

John :-#)#

--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
(604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."


A friend of mine has an old school arcade machine. No CPUs or monitors
in this puppy. Just a pile of relays and paddle wheels. Great stuff. I
could not find the tilt detector?

I found a short cut for flat electrolytic condensers in monitors and
switching power supplies. First check if condensers that are rounded
on top. Failing this use an impedance meter to measure the condenser
impedance in circuit without un soldering it. Not un soldering it
saves a lot of time. Any condenser with a impedance higher than a few
ohms at 10 KHz and you found your problem. The down side is they do
not sell condenser in circuit impedance meters so you have to make it
yourself. Not a big deal as it just requires 10 KHz at a low impedance
with about 100 m volts then monitor the current.


Google "blue meter" or "Bob Parkers ESR meter".


Indeed, I've been selling those meters since 1999 when I first starting
chatting with Bob Parker (Dick Smith K-7204 kits in those days). Great
ESR meter that works in circuit for roughly values between 4ufd to about
1000ufd.

John :-#)#

--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
(604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."


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