Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems.

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  #191   Report Post  
Old September 24th 15, 02:02 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
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Default EPA full of ****, VW was not cheating!

On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 05:59:50 -0500, "Dean Hoffman"
wrote:


Wonder about MB and BMW Diesel vehicles. I was looking at MB GLK-250
Diesel version when news broke out. Considering Diesel vehicle for next
new car purchase is on hold now. Also I am wondering about turbo charged
small engines on almost every cars, Ecoboost, Skyactive...,etc. Crap.


I had a Mazda MX6 with a turbo. One was supposed to let the engine
idle for a minute before shutting it off to let the turbo wind down.
There might've been some cooling also.
An oil reservoir above the turbo with a flow restrictor would've
eliminated that requirement but that would've cost the manufacturer
money.

Toyota's solution was a water cooled turbo.

  #192   Report Post  
Old September 24th 15, 02:13 AM posted to alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair
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Default EPA full of ****, VW was not cheating!

On 23.09.15 20:45, Winston_Smith wrote:
On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 21:26:40 -0700, Bob F wrote:

Update 9/22: This morning VW announced that the cheating issue on diesel engines
is much more vast than initially expected. The company admitted to cheating on
11 million diesel engines worldwide.


And the CEO stepped down today.

VW even, apparently, fingered a few employees to the German justice system
(which I'd love to know more about - because it gets down to "WHO" did it).

The top100 of the factory leaders will say sorry, and
tell us they did not know about it, and
a few janitors will go to jail.
Oh, and profits might go down a bit.......

White collar crime punishment is almost non-existent..
  #193   Report Post  
Old September 24th 15, 02:21 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
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Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

On 2015-09-23, Bob F wrote:
Really!!


Pick up a history book sometime and see what a "goof" it is. Government
has always been a criminal enterprise whose primary activities have been
theft, extortion, murder, and slavery.

Volkswagen lied, but they lied to a motley collection of liars, thieves,
thugs and other miscreants. (As a practical matter, the total emissions
are still very low with no actual effect on air quality vs. the arbitrary
EPA "standard." The environmentalist crowd has never really grokked the
concept of "diminishing returns" or the fact that causing a vehicle to use
more fuel just shifts emissions elswhere to provide the extra fuel.)

Screw the EPA and the horse they rode in on (the federal beast). The
best comment I saw on the VW situation was this on a political site:

Translation: Slaves rebel; caught trying to escape from The Plantation.
Massa plans to whip their asses.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Blake (Change "invalid" to "com" for email. Google Groups killfiled.)

NSA sedition and treason -- http://www.DeathToNSAthugs.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  #194   Report Post  
Old September 24th 15, 02:33 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
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Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

On 9/23/2015 8:21 PM, Roger Blake wrote:
On 2015-09-23, Bob F wrote:
Really!!


Pick up a history book sometime and see what a "goof" it is. Government
has always been a criminal enterprise whose primary activities have been
theft, extortion, murder, and slavery.

Volkswagen lied, but they lied to a motley collection of liars, thieves,
thugs and other miscreants. (As a practical matter, the total emissions
are still very low with no actual effect on air quality vs. the arbitrary
EPA "standard." The environmentalist crowd has never really grokked the
concept of "diminishing returns" or the fact that causing a vehicle to use
more fuel just shifts emissions elswhere to provide the extra fuel.)


This reads more like a comedy routine than a serious protest.

Screw the EPA and the horse they rode in on (the federal beast). The
best comment I saw on the VW situation was this on a political site:


Screw the lead, asbestos and dioxin, full speed ahead.

Translation: Slaves rebel; caught trying to escape from The Plantation.
Massa plans to whip their asses.


That much is true, Felipe Massa always hopes to beat every driver.
  #195   Report Post  
Old September 24th 15, 03:07 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
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Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 22:47:55 +0000 (UTC), Winston_Smith
wrote:

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 14:22:22 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:

You would still need to measure actual
emissions to see if the car met the emissions requirements.


I think this makes sense.

The VW cheat code does NOT appear to do anything clever.

In the official EPA pdf letter to VW, they called it a "switch".

Basically, the cheat code determined that the car was not moving but
that it was running as if it was moving, so, under that circumstance
(i.e., under what the EPA called the "dynamometer" settings) VW
engineers simply reduced the fuel to the engine, which lowered the
NOx emissions.

Under all other circumstances, which the EPA called the "road" settings,
VW engineers let the car have as much fuel as it wanted, NOx emissions
be damned.

There was nothing sophisticated at all about it. It's like me stealing
money from my own relatives. It's easy to do because they leave their
wallet out on the kitchen table without checking.

The audacious part isn't how clever it was (it wasn't at all clever).

The audacious part is that we trusted them, just as you trust a house
guest, and they violated that trust, just as it would be as if a house
guest stole money out of your wallet.


Yes. The real mystery here is who implemented this and who all knew
about it. I think they have to run the cars on test tracks for 50 or
60K miles to verify they system holds up but even if not, surely
during development of any engine system they must run them fully
instrumented for quite a while to see what the "real world" results
look like as well as how well the "lab strategy" works in the field.
Surely *someone* at VW must have noticed that when they tested
instrumented vehicles on the road they were not meeting emissions
standards. It's inconceivable they never tested these "in the wild"
but only tested them back at the shop on the dynamometer and the
"switch" kept those engineers from seeing that things weren't as they
should be.


  #196   Report Post  
Old September 24th 15, 03:28 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
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Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's beingtested?

Ewald Böhm wrote in :

My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions?


This video says that the VW TDI meets all California and US & Europe requirements!
https://youtu.be/GzuFXeO48Rw?t=635

  #198   Report Post  
Old September 24th 15, 03:57 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
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Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's beingtested?

On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 19:07:48 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:

Surely *someone* at VW must have noticed that when they tested
instrumented vehicles on the road they were not meeting emissions
standards. It's inconceivable they never tested these "in the wild"
but only tested them back at the shop on the dynamometer and the
"switch" kept those engineers from seeing that things weren't as they
should be.


I have to agree with you.

Notice what Winterkorn said, which was that he wasn't aware, "to his
knowledge", that he cheated. Hmmmm...

And Clinton didn't have sexual relations with that woman either.

  #199   Report Post  
Old September 24th 15, 04:58 AM posted to alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair
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Default EPA full of ****, VW was not cheating!

Sjouke Burry wrote:
On 23.09.15 20:45, Winston_Smith wrote:
On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 21:26:40 -0700, Bob F wrote:

Update 9/22: This morning VW announced that the cheating issue on
diesel engines is much more vast than initially expected. The
company admitted to cheating on 11 million diesel engines worldwide.


And the CEO stepped down today.

VW even, apparently, fingered a few employees to the German justice
system (which I'd love to know more about - because it gets down to
"WHO" did it).

The top100 of the factory leaders will say sorry, and
tell us they did not know about it, and
a few janitors will go to jail.
Oh, and profits might go down a bit.......

White collar crime punishment is almost non-existent..


Maybe this will be the time for a change??


  #200   Report Post  
Old September 24th 15, 06:56 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
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Posts: 1,679
Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

Vincent Cheng Hoi Chuen wrote:
Ashton Crusher wrote in
:

That's my point for this thread branch, yes. Not only isn't it worth
it, the code is none of teh EPA's damn business.


What I don't understand is that the code, apparently, allowed *more*
fuel to the engine (to cool the combustion chamber) which lowered NOx
emissions.

So, fixing the problem should result in *less* fuel to the engine, if
that's the case.

When they reflash the ecu, wouldn't that lowering of fuel *increase* gas
mileage *and* bring NOx emissions back down to where they said they were?


Backwards.

Less fuel = hotter burn in the combustion chamber = higher NOx numbers
It shows up as vehicles that get better EPA mileage numbers than the
sticker says because they are burning less fuel.

To correct the issue they need to increase the fuel to the engine to
cool the combustion temperatures.

The end result will be that the EPA MPG numbers will be closer to
reality because the engine is now using the fuel to keep the NOx numbers
down. The only "bad" side effect will be that the particulate trap and
the NOx catalyst will need to burn more often to regenerate.

OR VW could come up with a DEF retrofit to drop the NOx numbers.

--
Steve W.


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