Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems.

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  #131   Report Post  
Old September 22nd 15, 10:25 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
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Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

In rec.autos.tech sms wrote:
On 9/21/2015 9:07 PM, Jack Myers wrote:


snip


I have seen a suggestion that the onboard computer takes note of the
fact that the rear wheels are rotating and the front wheels are
stationary. That seems plausible to me.


Well the opposite for most or all VWs, but that makes sense.


Oops! Right-o. What do you want to bet that the source code
has this feature documented as a special low-torque mode to
facititate getting out of snow banks?


  #132   Report Post  
Old September 22nd 15, 11:20 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
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Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

Ashton Crusher wrote:
I don't see the logic of this. The purpose of the code is to produce
a specific level of emissions. As the EPA found, and I doubt it was
hard, the on the road emissions didn't match what was produced during
dynamometer testing. How would anyone realistically look at the code
and be able to figure out that it "worked" as far as controlling
emissions? You can't, you can only tell if it "works" by measuring
what comes out the tailpipe. Sure, a good code reader, if they had the
time to look thru god knows how many lines of code, *might* spot a
weird program execution loop but that it highly doubtful and certainly
not a sure thing. And even if they did, it would not prove that the
emissions out the tailpipe FAILED, it would only show that someone put
some weird stuff in the code. You would still need to measure actual
emissions to see if the car met the emissions requirements.


It's true that the proof is in the pudding and actual emissions measurements
tell the real story, but you cannot realistically measure emissions under
every possible driving circumstance, so at some point the test will need
to be simplified, and every test that is simplified will have a loophole.

However, seeing source code allows you to figure out what that loophole is
when the measurements don't make sense, and of course it also allows you to
determine intent. Booleans with name like EPA_ENFORCEMENT and SMOG_MODE
might be a giveaway too...
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  #133   Report Post  
Old September 22nd 15, 11:28 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
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Default EPA full of ****, VW was not cheating!

| It seems like everyone here is on a VW witch hunt.

The VW executives admitted to the EPA that they were
scamming the tests. Try reading the news.



  #134   Report Post  
Old September 22nd 15, 11:32 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
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Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

On 9/19/2015 9:40 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:12:53 -0500, mike wrote:

On 9/18/2015 9:42 PM, Ewald Böhm wrote:
On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:45:53 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I also find it interesting that a large allegedly reputable company
would do something intentional to cheat like that. Too easy to get
caught or ratted out.

According to the news reports, VW admitted culpability.

If I were the owner of the affected cars, I would NOT bring them in for
the recall, since it's not a safety issue.

They will definitely lose performance after the "fix" (while they will
also do worse on emissions testing results).

It's a lose:lose situation for the car owner to get the car "fixed", I
think, because of those two results.

Do you agree?
Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their
cars?

Will you have any choice?
If the test procedure for those cars is changed to test the "real"
emissions, they will FAIL.
If you care about air quality, you have to do that.
Here in Oregon, you don't get your license plates renewed if you fail.


Some cut.

Some states, like Nebraska, do no testing. We had some testing
for horns, lights, etc. back in the 70s, but dropped it. I think
the testers hollered too loud about the low testing fee allowed.
I wonder how many of the non-compliant vehicles will end up in
states with no testing.


They test here in DE but plug into the computer to do it, not just sniff
the tail pipe. Would guess our computer would be fooled too.
Testing is also static without running load which I would assume EPA did.
  #135   Report Post  
Old September 22nd 15, 11:32 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
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Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

| The Justice Department reached an agreement
| with GM over the faulty ignition switches. Prosecution
| is deferred and the GM execs promise to be goodie two
| shoes. http://preview.alturl.com/ctzff Over 100
| people died.
| I don't think Jeff Foxworthy or Larry the Cable Guy
| are running the Justice Department.
|

I'd forgotten about the GM issue. It's hardly
surprising these things happen when the executives
in charge have no liability. Even the companies
often find the deals to be profitable. If a company
cuts corners to save $100 million and gets fined
$20 million, with no arrests, then that seems to be
a good business plan.




  #136   Report Post  
Old September 22nd 15, 11:37 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
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Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

| Arrests will do nothing.

I don't see how you can look at it that way. If
executives were held crimially liable for corporate
law breaking then very little of it would happen.
It's the difference between *maybe* risking their
bonus and definitely risking years in jail.
As long as the corporation is treated as an able,
non-human party, and punished financially, that's
an implicit statement that we as a society recognize
no legal or ethical requirements for people doing
business.


  #137   Report Post  
Old September 22nd 15, 11:47 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
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Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's beingtested?

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 14:22:22 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:

You would still need to measure actual
emissions to see if the car met the emissions requirements.


I think this makes sense.

The VW cheat code does NOT appear to do anything clever.

In the official EPA pdf letter to VW, they called it a "switch".

Basically, the cheat code determined that the car was not moving but
that it was running as if it was moving, so, under that circumstance
(i.e., under what the EPA called the "dynamometer" settings) VW
engineers simply reduced the fuel to the engine, which lowered the
NOx emissions.

Under all other circumstances, which the EPA called the "road" settings,
VW engineers let the car have as much fuel as it wanted, NOx emissions
be damned.

There was nothing sophisticated at all about it. It's like me stealing
money from my own relatives. It's easy to do because they leave their
wallet out on the kitchen table without checking.

The audacious part isn't how clever it was (it wasn't at all clever).

The audacious part is that we trusted them, just as you trust a house
guest, and they violated that trust, just as it would be as if a house
guest stole money out of your wallet.

  #138   Report Post  
Old September 22nd 15, 11:49 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
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Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?


"Mayayana" wrote in message
...
| Arrests will do nothing.

I don't see how you can look at it that way. If
executives were held crimially liable for corporate
law breaking then very little of it would happen.
It's the difference between *maybe* risking their
bonus and definitely risking years in jail.
As long as the corporation is treated as an able,
non-human party, and punished financially, that's
an implicit statement that we as a society recognize
no legal or ethical requirements for people doing
business.



Murder is illegal but people still do it.


  #139   Report Post  
Old September 22nd 15, 11:52 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
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Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's beingtested?

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 18:20:29 -0400, Scott Dorsey wrote:

It's true that the proof is in the pudding


I once looked that up, and it's the truth is in the /taste/ of the pudding!


actual emissions measurements tell the real story, but you cannot
realistically measure emissions under every possible driving circumstance


You'll notice they drove the three test cars from San Diego to Seattle.
Do you know why they did that?

Because the trucking engine manufacturers were caught cheating years ago,
where, after hundreds of miles of driving, the emissions would slowly
creep up as the cheat codes slowly lowered the emissions constraints.

The only way to tell if the VW cheat code did the same thing as Caterpillar
and Volvo did in the past, was to drive for a thousand miles or so. It turned
out that the cheat code was not the same as the ones previously used by
the trucking engine manufacturers, but, as you noted, the only way to
tell was to drive very long distances.

so at some point the test will need
to be simplified, and every test that is simplified will have a loophole.


This is true.

The problem here isn't that VW cheated; it's that we TRUSTED them not to
cheat, and then they still cheated. It's like trusting a house guest not
to steal from you. Or like trusting the pool boy not to steal chemicals
from you. Or trusting the electrician not to steal wires from you. Or
trusting the dentist not to steal gold fillings from you.

It's a trust issue (in addition to one big legal issue).

However, seeing source code allows you to figure out what that loophole is
when the measurements don't make sense, and of course it also allows you to
determine intent. Booleans with name like EPA_ENFORCEMENT and SMOG_MODE
might be a giveaway too...


In the official documents, even VW called the cheat setting of the switch
the dynamometer setting!

  #140   Report Post  
Old September 22nd 15, 11:56 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
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Default EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's beingtested?

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 15:40:39 -0700, trader_4 wrote:

Otherwise it ran the car with emissions that according to the news
last night was 10 - 40x above the limits.


Notice that they had from 5 to 45 times the LIMIT (which is a lot!).

The lower/higher numbers were due to city/highway mode, I think.
(I assume the city numbers are the higher ones?)

The variation in the low and high figures themselves was due to the
different vehicles tested.

They didn't look at the code, EPA went after VW to explain the huge
differences between dyno testing emissions and emission on the road.
VW couldn't explain it and finally admitted what they had done.


I think, as someone mentioned, and as the news noted, the code is
actually covered by the DCMA (it would be nice to find a cite).

It wasn't so much that VW /couldn't/ explain, but that they wouldn't
explain it. They only admitted guilt when both CARB and EPA said they
would not certify 2016 diesels because they couldn't be certain of the
manufacturer's own certification process.

Only then, when VW knew their stock price would take the hit, did VW
finally confess. And even then, they didn't confess to the fact that
it's not half a million vehicles, but more than twenty times that
number!



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