On Wed, 6 May 2015 09:34:39 -0700 (PDT), John-Del
wrote:

On Wednesday, May 6, 2015 at 11:00:27 AM UTC-4, wrote:


I know what oil-based paintings are, but
oil-based TV?


Refresh rate must have sucked.... [rimshot]


Well, it's not April 1st so I looked and:

http://www.earlytelevision.org/eidophor.html


This is another good site that explains how it works.
http://lampes-et-tubes.info/sc/sc041.php?l=e

In the mid 80s we were one the larger GE television dealers in the
country so we might have gotten information about coming attractions
that weren't widely disseminated. I can't remember if we received a
sheet on the product or it was mentioned by a GE representative at a
seminar.

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On Wednesday, May 6, 2015 at 1:46:15 PM UTC-7, wrote:
"I shouldn't have said that the VIR signal didn't have a reference for
luminance adjustment. "

It did. As I said there was a line of the NTSC color baar standard, stairstep and multiburst.

Though the VIR equipped sets only used two bars of the NTSC color bars, it could have done alot more. There was just no money in it. I don't recall exactly how it worked but it only adjusted the phase to make two of the bars the same, or at a specified differential level. And there were settings fo it, it is just they were referenced to those levels.

Rewalistically, had they wanted to they could have compensated for bandwidth problems, maybe even multipath using the stairstep and/or the mutiburst.. But again, there was no money in it.

Broadcasters may well have made adjustments manually, it doesn't matter. The thing is it was adjusted to that test signal. The video is the video, if it looks ****ty it is not our fault, that is how it is. Our equipment is fine.

the real problem is that this has become much ado about nothing. when I was young we only had a few TV stations. I mean some people had UHF convertors. On Friday night we had to look at the TV guide that came with the local newspaper and decide what to watch. Choosing from a whopping five channels in the days of the new UHF band.

Now there are 300 channels and the best button is "power off".

They actually DID do bandwidth correction with Ghost Cancelling Reference (GCR) which was one line of continuous sweep from 100 KHz to 4.2MHz Any frequency response variation between the insertion point and recovery point was corrected. Keep in mind that multipath (ghosts) manifest as response deviations. We had bad ghost on KCBS 2 in LA from antenna feed and the GCR box cleaned nearly all of it up. The surprise came on KCET 28 which had no ghosts at all but when the box locked up the detail 'popped' - that dramatically..

I don't know if home TVs looked at VITS bars as the line number was not fixed and decoding a line of bars is sort of silly. The VIR was specifically designed for this task as the subcarrier (in the line, not the burst) was a defined phase and amplitude on a fixed level pedestal to set luma gain.

Gotta tell ya though, I do not miss analog TV and all of its myriad flaws and limitations with illegal colors and video levels. AND, aligning a low band VHF transmitter for response, Incidental Carrier Phase Modulation, delay and efficiency was tedious getting the 3 or 4 linear amplifiers that followed the exciter all behaving properly.

G²

In article ,
wrote:

isw wrote:

"Bluer, or just closer to white than you're used to?

Isaac"


Closer to white than I'm used to? White is not
supposed to be bluish. Today's TVs ship to retailers
with the color temp closer to that Japanese standard
mentioned a couple replies back(9,000K), which
renders material produced at 5400(old B&W movies)
or 6,500K(broadcast) most inaccurately - bluish.


Question: Have you seen an accurate or calibrated
accurate TV? Or one with at least the Basic-Five
controls set correctly with medium or warm color
temp setting?

Short answer: "Yup".

Long answer: Significant experience with NTSC and participation in the
development of MPEG and HDTV.

Isaac

In article ,
wrote:

Chuck: "oil based projection tv"


????

Google "Eidophor".

Isaac

Again isw/Isaac:


We're talking about the sets themselves, not
NTSC or ATSC transmissions. Those have 6500K
as the grayscale and D65 as the illuminant. If you
see a lot of blue from those marks then something
is wrong with what you are viewing them ON.


Most current Consumer TVs out of box are NOT
set for accurate viewing by either standard. A lot
of them may have an accurate preset(Movie or
THX), but are not set to that at the factory.


They are put in the bluest, brightest, over-
saturated, oversharpened mode possible, with
a bunch of edge enhancers and "noise reducers"
enabled, and most consumers don't even bother to look
for a menu where they can change that.


And trying to explain that to them, as it has
been trying to explain to some on here, is
akin to explaining it to a lamp post. It seems that
I must be the ONLY usenet participant on either
sci.electronics.repair, rec.video, or alt.video
who gives a crap about display accuracy and
calibration, because no one else cares to
bring it up.


JOE KANE where are you when we need you????

skrev:
Again isw/Isaac:



We're talking about the sets themselves, not
NTSC or ATSC transmissions. Those have 6500K
as the grayscale and D65 as the illuminant. If you
see a lot of blue from those marks then something
is wrong with what you are viewing them ON.

You still don't get it.

You want to replace the factory presets with your own presets.

You can not get a more correct image without looking/measuring the
resulting output, as an absolute value of 50% red 50% green 50% blue
might have different result on different makes and models of screens.

... who gives a crap about display accuracy and
calibration, because no one else cares to
bring it up.

You cannot calibrate without looking at the screen. It cannot be done
remotely.


Leif

--
https://www.paradiss.dk
Ting til konen eller kæresten.
Eller begge.

"You can not get a more correct image without looking/measuring the
resulting output, as an absolute value of 50% red 50% green 50% blue
might have different result on different makes and models of screens. "

Early color TV did not work that way. Monochrome cameras were set up to pickup that as well as possible, and that was something like 72 % green, and whatever was left, mainly to the red but about a third of it to the blue. Something like that. In fact there are a few different colorimetries.

They were never equal simply because the way the human eye works and now, that is not going to get better. Like someone said, doens't anyone care about the accuracy ?

Well the fact is, I don't. Not that much. I am happy with a 1990s TV, CRT type. Standard def. I don't mind seeing the scan lines. The HDTV is nice, but I simply do not need it for three hours of viewing a month or whatever it is. If I get a hnakerin to watch the tube I will go to that, ummm, yeeah HULU and go see my old buddy Matt Dillon. and his buddy Doc.

Know one time Doc told this guy if he saw him beat his pregnant Wife again he would kill him ? Subsequently he caught the MF at it and then shot him. Some other guy, I think Newly who was one of the deputies said "you killed him" and Doc replied "I meant to".

Now that I like. Not ghosts, goblins and all that bull****.

And the other thing is that when we had three TV stations, we had to look at the TV guide to see what to watch. MAKE A CHOICE.

Now we got 300 stations and nothing to watch. When the best thing on is Gordon Ramsay and this is costing you a hundred bucks a ****oing month, someting is wrong.

Bottom line, make the picture as perfect as you want, but of what ?

wrote: "Well the fact is, I don't. Not that much. I am happy with a
1990s TV, CRT type. Standard def. I don't mind seeing the scan lines."



So would I be - once I set at least the basic controls properly. Standard or
high-def doesn't matter. Getting the grayscale, chroma, dynamic range
and peaking right is more important than lines or pixels. Once I saw
accurate, I was hooked. Nothing else would satisfy me!

Some sets you simply couldn't. They played woith the color demnodulation angle sometims, prety much for flesh correction I thingk sometimes based on the engineering department's refereces.

And then there were those elcheapo NAPs with the phosphor optimized for flourescnt lighting in the stores that were **** once you got them home.

On Friday, May 8, 2015 at 8:05:59 AM UTC-4, wrote:
When the best thing on is Gordon Ramsay and this is costing you a hundred bucks a ****ing month, something is wrong.


Gordon Ramsey? I think I would rather be forced to watch the Kartrashians than this foul mouthed coward (in fact, I heard he's trolling tech newsgroups...).

But you're right that's there's nothing much to watch. If it weren't for History and History2 on cable, I'd drop cable. And even then half the time they're running "reality" programming about truckers, loggers, swamp rednecks, and other dim wits. They make it up though with excellent documentaries about the Nazis, Egyptians, WWII, American Civil War, pirates, etc. Just wish they'd spend more real time with history than garbage.

History channel ? Flawed of course but better than nothing. Of course it seems to be holocaust appreciation month of some **** as if WW2 is the only thing that ever happened.

Actually I like foul language and really wish they wouldn't bleep it out. I also want to see people smoking cigarettes and driving cars without seat belts.

Yup, when we had three channels people argued about what to watch. Now there are 300 channels and the most watcheed is the TV guide channel, or preview guide or whatever.

I put myself thru college in 1953-57 doing Admiral tv repair in Fort Pierce, Florida. There was tremendous variability in how sets came from the factory. There was also tremendous variability in what various consumers wanted as the color of "white". We aimed to keep our customers happy and would set "white" to whatever was their preference.

The nearest tv station was in West Palm Beach 50 miles to the south, all others were in Miami, 120 miles to the south. Atmospheric conditions determined the quality of the signals received at those distances. The yagi antennas used had back lobes that would also pick up Jacksonville 200 miles to the north, on the same channels as Miami, under certain atmospheric conditions. The resulting signals gave strange effects.

The white block in the upper left-hand corner of the picture signalling a switch to a commercial was a holdover from motion pictures. When the reel of film was almost over, like about 10 seconds from the end, the white block was a signal to the projectionist to switch to the alternate projector which picked up the "story line" at exactly the end of the film in the first projector. Since early tv used a lot of film-based programming, the white block made the transition to tv in that manner.

hrho.. wrote: "tremendous variability in what various consumers wanted as the color of "white". We aimed to keep our customers happy and would set "white" to whatever was their preference. "


B B B bbble chhhhh!!!! (K-man kneeling before
the American Standard vomiting)


How awful! And that word "preferences". There's
only accurate - and innacurate!

"B B B bbble chhhhh!!!! (K-man kneeling before
the American Standard vomiting) "

Might as well. These new shows and movies seem to want to make you think your TV is screwed up. The blacks are green, and I lknow it is not the TV because it isn't there when you turn the color down. And then they blue out things. And recently I saw a show in which when they changed certain scenes they made it look like you have a horizontal sync problem.

In sound, if you have a properly miked concert and goood speakers, maybe you want to leave the tone controls on flat. But synthesized music ? Electric guitars. All highly equalized before it ever gets there.

Accurate to what ?

jurb.. wrote: "Accurate to what?"


I'm not even going to entertain that
question. It shows how little folks care
about calibration on these supposedly
"technical" newsgroups.


Google "display calibration" and "SMPTE"
and learn about it. Learn the significance
of 6500K color temperature and illuminant
D65, and what color bars are for.

4:57 PM (3 hours ago)
jurb.. wrote: "Accurate to what?" I'm not even going to entertain that question. It shows how little folks care about calibration on these supposedly "technical" newsgroups. Google "display calibration" and "SMPTE" and learn about it.
jurb.. wrote: "Accurate to what?" "

It was a purely rhetorical in nature. My point was you don't watch a test signal.

I don't disagree with you. The people who want their greyscale to be a brownscale or a bluescale are like the people who want to turn the bass or treble up or down on music.

Maybe you are the last purist.

I know all about test patterns. Got no use for them without a TV.

jurb wrote: "jurb.. wrote: "Accurate to what?" I'm not even going to entertain that question. It shows how little folks care about calibration on these supposedly "technical" newsgroups. Google "display calibration" and "SMPTE" and learn about it.
jurb.. wrote: "Accurate to what?" "

It was a purely rhetorical in nature. My point was you don't watch a test signal.

I don't disagree with you. The people who want their greyscale to be a brownscale or a bluescale are like the people who want to turn the bass or treble up or down on music."


The patterns are designed to result in accurate viewing of actual material!


Even if ten people strived for correct skin tone by eye, you'd still get ten
different results, all else being equal.


Patterns are standardized. Can't eff up the settings with them!

So are you ready to take a calibrrated light box and transparency for campare ?

That is really the only way to do it.

kom med denne ide:
I put myself thru college in 1953-57 doing Admiral tv repair in Fort Pierce,
Florida. There was tremendous variability in how sets came from the factory.
There was also tremendous variability in what various consumers wanted as
the color of "white". We aimed to keep our customers happy and would set
"white" to whatever was their preference.

A question linked to a random message in this thread:

Are the colours in Miami as vivid as in the series CSI-Miami?

Leif

--
https://www.paradiss.dk
Ting til konen eller kæresten.
Eller begge.

Leif Neland:


Of course not. The colors in CSI Miami were produced that way.
Same as the green overtones in "The Matrix".


Think of calibration as an alignment process. After such, the TV
will produce colors exactly as the producers of movies and TV
shows intended them to be viewed. Content that is not overly
produced, and reflects reality, such as the news, will pass through
accordingly.


The content itself is not a calibration source - the patterns on discs
such as Avia, Spear & Munsil, or Digital HD Video Essentials are.


Display calibration is akin to a wheel alignment: It is done in a
shop with precision measuring devices & tools. It allows the vehicle
to perform ideally on the widest variety of road surfaces. Video
calibration is done with industry-established standardized patterns
to allow the TV to more accurately display the widest variety of
program colors and luminance ranges.


To adjust a TV so that CSI Miami colors appear more life-like is like
aligning a car to perform best on the 33degree bank turns at
Talladega Speedway. It will not track true at other venues or
environments.

" wrote:

I put myself thru college in 1953-57 doing Admiral tv repair in Fort Pierce, Florida. There was tremendous variability in how sets came from the factory. There was also tremendous variability in what various consumers wanted as the color of "white". We aimed to keep our customers happy and would set "white" to whatever was their preference.

The nearest tv station was in West Palm Beach 50 miles to the south, all others were in Miami, 120 miles to the south. Atmospheric conditions determined the quality of the signals received at those distances. The yagi antennas used had back lobes that would also pick up Jacksonville 200 miles to the north, on the same channels as Miami, under certain atmospheric conditions. The resulting signals gave strange effects.

The white block in the upper left-hand corner of the picture signalling a switch to a commercial was a holdover from motion pictures. When the reel of film was almost over, like about 10 seconds from the end, the white block was a signal to the projectionist to switch to the alternate projector which picked up the "story line" at exactly the end of the film in the first projector. Since early tv used a lot of film-based programming, the white block made the transition to tv in that manner.


The 'Cue mark' was the upper right, and in a series of three. They
were made by either scraping away the emulsion, or punching a pinhole
for several frames for each cue mark.

The first to alert the operator. The second was to start the other
projector, and the third to switch the semaphores to switch the optical
path from one projector to the other. I ran a pair of RCA TP66, 16 mm
film projectors at an AFRTS TV station, for a year, back in the '70s.

In article ,
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

" wrote:

I put myself thru college in 1953-57 doing Admiral tv repair in Fort
Pierce, Florida. There was tremendous variability in how sets came from
the factory. There was also tremendous variability in what various
consumers wanted as the color of "white". We aimed to keep our customers
happy and would set "white" to whatever was their preference.

The nearest tv station was in West Palm Beach 50 miles to the south, all
others were in Miami, 120 miles to the south. Atmospheric conditions
determined the quality of the signals received at those distances. The
yagi antennas used had back lobes that would also pick up Jacksonville 200
miles to the north, on the same channels as Miami, under certain
atmospheric conditions. The resulting signals gave strange effects.

The white block in the upper left-hand corner of the picture signalling a
switch to a commercial was a holdover from motion pictures. When the reel
of film was almost over, like about 10 seconds from the end, the white
block was a signal to the projectionist to switch to the alternate
projector which picked up the "story line" at exactly the end of the film
in the first projector. Since early tv used a lot of film-based
programming, the white block made the transition to tv in that manner.


The 'Cue mark' was the upper right, and in a series of three. They
were made by either scraping away the emulsion, or punching a pinhole
for several frames for each cue mark.

The first to alert the operator. The second was to start the other
projector, and the third to switch the semaphores to switch the optical
path from one projector to the other. I ran a pair of RCA TP66, 16 mm
film projectors at an AFRTS TV station, for a year, back in the '70s.

I got myself through college in the early sixties by working in a local
TV station's engineering department. Back then, there was no other way
to distribute movies for things like the local "late movie" than as 16mm
film on large reels. The movies were always provided as packages of a
couple dozen (generally one or two decent ones and the rest dogs). The
cans of film worked their way around, one movie at the time, through a
series of local stations -- you got them from KXXX-TV and sent them on
to KYYY-TV, who then sent them on, etc. Assuming the station(s) upstream
of you were responsible, you got a "new" movie every week.

By the time the film rolls had been around that circuit once or twice,
nearly every frame in the whole film had been punctured with a cue mark
(because every station had their own idea of where the commercials
should be inserted).

All the holes were, of course, bright white, which messed with the
automatic video gain circuitry of the projectors.

Isaac

isw wrote:

In article ,
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

" wrote:

I put myself thru college in 1953-57 doing Admiral tv repair in Fort
Pierce, Florida. There was tremendous variability in how sets came from
the factory. There was also tremendous variability in what various
consumers wanted as the color of "white". We aimed to keep our customers
happy and would set "white" to whatever was their preference.

The nearest tv station was in West Palm Beach 50 miles to the south, all
others were in Miami, 120 miles to the south. Atmospheric conditions
determined the quality of the signals received at those distances. The
yagi antennas used had back lobes that would also pick up Jacksonville 200
miles to the north, on the same channels as Miami, under certain
atmospheric conditions. The resulting signals gave strange effects.

The white block in the upper left-hand corner of the picture signalling a
switch to a commercial was a holdover from motion pictures. When the reel
of film was almost over, like about 10 seconds from the end, the white
block was a signal to the projectionist to switch to the alternate
projector which picked up the "story line" at exactly the end of the film
in the first projector. Since early tv used a lot of film-based
programming, the white block made the transition to tv in that manner.


The 'Cue mark' was the upper right, and in a series of three. They
were made by either scraping away the emulsion, or punching a pinhole
for several frames for each cue mark.

The first to alert the operator. The second was to start the other
projector, and the third to switch the semaphores to switch the optical
path from one projector to the other. I ran a pair of RCA TP66, 16 mm
film projectors at an AFRTS TV station, for a year, back in the '70s.

I got myself through college in the early sixties by working in a local
TV station's engineering department. Back then, there was no other way
to distribute movies for things like the local "late movie" than as 16mm
film on large reels. The movies were always provided as packages of a
couple dozen (generally one or two decent ones and the rest dogs). The
cans of film worked their way around, one movie at the time, through a
series of local stations -- you got them from KXXX-TV and sent them on
to KYYY-TV, who then sent them on, etc. Assuming the station(s) upstream
of you were responsible, you got a "new" movie every week.

By the time the film rolls had been around that circuit once or twice,
nearly every frame in the whole film had been punctured with a cue mark
(because every station had their own idea of where the commercials
should be inserted).

All the holes were, of course, bright white, which messed with the
automatic video gain circuitry of the projectors.


AFRTS didn't run commercials, and PSAs were only run between
programs, or during our live newscast. The films were shipped from base
to base, via the 'Bicycle Network'. There were typically 13 stations, or
ships in each network, and movies went around twice. We would get
several cases of film each week. It was up to us to select the air
times, but all of them had to be shipped to the next location at the end
of the week. The worst was that damned Kinescope film, that was so thin
that a strong breeze would snap it. Our film chain used a single camera,
so the only electronics in the projector was the sound circuitry.

Michael Terrell:

"AFRTS"?

On Saturday, May 16, 2015 at 6:09:44 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Michael Terrell:

"AFRTS"?

Google is your friend. Armed Forces Television and Radio Service.

jurb wrote: "Google is your friend."

I don't consider things as friends.

"Armed Forces Television and Radio Service. "

Thank you! Not so hard now, was that?

"jurb wrote: "Google is your friend."

I don't consider things as friends. "

Figure of speech.

wrote:

Michael Terrell:

"AFRTS"?

Armed Forces Radio Television and Service, which provides new and
entertainment to our military when there are no local English language
stations

Thanks Michael!

I'm from an era where acronyms and abbreviations were the
exception - not the rule.

wrote:

Thanks Michael!

I'm from an era where acronyms and abbreviations were the
exception - not the rule.

You're welcome.