The state of the TV repair business what it is, I have moved into music equipment. These guys are like the hifi audio guys. And old tube amp from 1957 is gold. Even some solid state amps are at least silver. Powered mixers, they bust a nut every time I fix one of those.

Now comes keyboards. Regular keyboards, fine. But then we have MIDI controllers. These used to plug into the joystick jack on PC soundcards. Now they are USB. That is not the question though, the question is - is there standard software for a PC that would let me test all or most of these controllers ?

If there is I should find an older version for free and stick it on my bench PC. I don't know about everyone else but I think if I fix a keyboard I should test all the keys. Right ?

Also, let's say an older one comes in with the old joystick plug. My bench PC is a laptop and does not have the jack for that. Maybe I should get a desk PC with an older soundcard ? And if I do, would that software maybe come with the drivers for the card ? Hell I already dropped the laptop and broke the screen. I brought in a monitor so I could use it but it is an old CRT with a weak CRT so I have to get something better. It was here and it was expendable but it is ****ty. Either way, this laptop has a virus, and it is an "upgrade" from Vista to XP. Actually doesn't run all that bad. So I already got a mouse on it and am consieering an external keyboard so I can just slide the thing into a nook somewhere and save bench space.

A tower I could put on the floor but then plugging anythihng into it would be a bitch. Maybe I could make an extender for that joystick jack. With USB it is no problem, in fact I think I have a USB extension cord.

Anyway, comment : Now you see what time can do. I was just about the preemininent authority on TV repair in the past. Seriously. And now I am learning.. I have to. I have to because I want more money.

Just like the old days. It's like time got reset.

I am getting used to this work though. People WILL spend some money on it, when they would throw a TV on the curb if it farts wrong. It seems that audio of some type is what I am going to do now. Whether audiophile, and some of them are nuts, or musicians, and all of them are nuts, maybe I can eek out a living until I can get my SS or croak.

I have figured out the usual. I need more bench space. I need to have a spot where I can pull guitar amp chassis and leave the cabinet there. (that resembles how the TV business used to be a LONG time ago)) I have a test speaker that can pretty much handle anything, it has that warning on it "WARNING, THIS SPEAKER CAN MELT YOUR BRAIN AND ANYTHING IN YOUR FRONT POCKETS". Actually another thing might be a power soak. I know how to make those, the one one I have at home consists of a taoster oven and a 150 ohm resistor. I am good up to 1,600 watts I guess but the impedance might rise as it gets hot. If an amp burns that up I AM INPRESSED. But for work I think I'll just order some big Dales.

At any rate, the MIDI thing is one I know very little about, the interface and all that. Other things I do at least have a clue but any pointers would be nice. Do you test ampos at full power before shipping them ? I think it is a good idea but I can't rsally do it right now. It is not common that something ****s up at really high power but sounds fine lower, but it does happen. I would like to at least be able to say I checked it.

Another thing is I intend to connect something other than a guitar to these amps. A simple music source but wired up to the right cables. Maybe the PC audio but padded down and wired to both ¼" and XLR plugs. I can get the material for the PC audio. Hell, I even got sit tones dot wave. Not that I would use it there, but I mean I got such diverse music it is ridiculous. I also have something called cyberkeyboard which is an onscreen keyboard you can play with the mouse or (PC) keyboard. Problem is there is no way to make a pure sine or square wave out of it, but if say I wanted A - 440 or C - 512 I could probably depend on its accuracy.

Anyway, whoever works on all this stuff, what works for you ? tbhough the MIDI question is the main one, any other ideas to make me more effective at this, I appreciate.

Thanks in advance for whatever you got.

On Wednesday, January 21, 2015 at 3:07:50 PM UTC-5, wrote:


Now comes keyboards. Regular keyboards, fine. But then we have MIDI controllers. These used to plug into the joystick jack on PC soundcards. Now they are USB. That is not the question though, the question is - is there standard software for a PC that would let me test all or most of these controllers ?


Not sure what you're asking, nor am I an expert.

I don't own a dedicated MIDI controller type keyboard. I have a number of cheap keyboards that have a MIDI out port that I use to input music to a laptop.

None of them have the newer USB ports. I use the standard MIDI cable into a MIDI interface like an M-Audio, or an external sound card like the Fast Track. . Provided I don't get the cables confused (MIDI In vs MIDI Out can be tricky) I've never had trouble getting several different laptops to receive the MIDI data. But they have to receive that data into software. I've used music notation programs (like Finale, Sibelius, Noteworthy Composer, etc.) and piano emulation programs like Piannissimo, etc. There is probably MIDI diagnostic software out there but I haven't needed it.

My goal was to build a software based pipe organ using Hauptwerk, just haven't got quite there yet.

wrote:
That is not the question though, the question is - is there standard
software for a PC that would let me test all or most of these
controllers ?

I know a guy that did MIDI music many years ago (late 90s, early 2000s).
I *think* he used software from Cakewalk but I am not 100% sure on this.
They still exist and have several software offerings; I'm not sure which
one you need. (He's not around for me to ask.)

For your purpose, you might want something like a MIDI protocol analzyer,
rather than just a "music" program. A music program will just draw the
sheet music as you play the keyboard; a protocol analzyer will show you
the individual "note on", "note off", etc messages. Some of the music
programs may have a "view MIDI" mode where you can see the raw data.

If you have to check something right *now*, stick a scope on it. I
think it's pins 2 and 4 - either side of the center pin. Should be
31.25 or 31.5 kHz, and IIRC, you'll get activity when you depress a key
and activity when you release it, but I don't think you get anything
when it's just sitting there.

MIDI is unidirectional. If you want a music keyboard to talk to the PC
*and* want the PC to talk to the music keyboard, you need to hook up
two cables. That's why the ports are labeled IN and OUT. Also, the
spec says that the interface is driven by an optocoupler.

I don't know about everyone else but I think if I fix a keyboard I
should test all the keys. Right ?

I think that's probably a good idea.

Also, let's say an older one comes in with the old joystick plug.

You won't see a keyboard with a 15-pin D connector. As far as I know
the standard is/was a 5 pin, 180 degree DIN connector - the "original"
ones that are about 0.6" diameter, not the "mini-DIN" ones that are
about 0.3" diameter.

Back in the day, soundcards that supported MIDI on the joystick port
came with a short adapter cable: one 15 pin D connector to two 5 pin
DIN connectors - one in, one out.

I'm pretty sure you can get a MIDI adapter to go from USB to 5-pin DIN.

Maybe I could make an extender for that joystick jack. With USB it is
no problem, in fact I think I have a USB extension cord.

You can still probably get 5-pin DIN MIDI extensions. Or make some; it
might help to use twisted pair but for short distances you may not have
to.

It seems that audio of some type is what I am going to do now.

Free advice: One thing I have noticed, at least with musicians that play
live, is that a lot of them will patch something up that will work for
two hours. Like, if one of the wires in their amp power cord gets cut,
they'll just strip the ends with a pocket knife and twist them together.
No tape or wire nut or anything. Or, if the input jack on an amp is
flaky, they'll go through all their patch cords until they find one with
an 0.255" plug that works better in that particular jack. It may be
helpful for you, or the person that takes the stuff in at the counter,
to ask about things like that.

Actually another thing might be a power soak.

Many years ago, I recall reading a story, maybe here, that a tech made
one out of an electric stove element. He had it set up so he could
still set a pot of water on the element while he was running an amp.
He had some of his customers convinced that boiling the water with Pink
Floyd made tastier coffee, vs using other music.

At any rate, the MIDI thing is one I know very little about, the
interface and all that.

The Wiki article is OK for a start. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIDI

I remember some articles on it in Radio-Electronics back in the 80s
when it first got popular; if you have back issues you might take a
look.

Another thing is I intend to connect something other than a guitar to
these amps.

Phil Allison recently posted about his ideal audio generator for testing
this kind of stuff.

Matt Roberds

On Wednesday, January 21, 2015 at 8:11:37 PM UTC-5, wrote:
wrote:
That is not the question though, the question is - is there standard
software for a PC that would let me test all or most of these
controllers ?

I know a guy that did MIDI music many years ago (late 90s, early 2000s).
I *think* he used software from Cakewalk but I am not 100% sure on this.
They still exist and have several software offerings; I'm not sure which
one you need. (He's not around for me to ask.)

For your purpose, you might want something like a MIDI protocol analzyer,
rather than just a "music" program. A music program will just draw the
sheet music as you play the keyboard; a protocol analzyer will show you
the individual "note on", "note off", etc messages. Some of the music
programs may have a "view MIDI" mode where you can see the raw data.


Various music programs are what I use, I haven't seen a protocol analyzer. Sounds interesting.

But he's still going to need an interface to convert from MIDI to USB to get it into his laptop in the first place.

I use MIDI for another purpose. I send recordings so people who don't read music can learn to sing or play their parts. I could do .wav or .mp3 formats, but that takes a huge amount of memory. After I've done the files I save in MIDI and email. MIDI is just on and off messages and contains no sampled or recorded data, so it is tiny, just a few k. Then any media player can play it.

http://www.midiox.com/

Welcome to MIDI-OX, the world's greatest all-purpose MIDI Utility! For those with time on their hands, you can read a brief history of MIDI-OX and how it came by its name. We have also included a general description of the utility and change history. The rest of you will want to grab the latest version and get right to work. MIDI-OX was created by Jamie O'Connell and Jerry Jorgenrud.

wrote:

The state of the TV repair business what it is, I have moved into music equipment. These guys are like the hifi audio guys. And old tube amp from 1957 is gold. Even some solid state amps are at least silver. Powered mixers, they bust a nut every time I fix one of those.

Now comes keyboards. Regular keyboards, fine. But then we have MIDI controllers. These used to plug into the joystick jack on PC soundcards. Now they are USB. That is not the question though, the question is - is there standard software for a PC that would let me test all or most of these controllers ?


** Can't advise you on servicing MIDI gear as I have never dealt with it - I do not refuse to look at it but nobody has ever offered me such work, I figure there is very little of it about. The lone keyboard repair specialist in Sydney closed down a few years ago and has not been missed.

For a long-time TV tech to move over to servicing musical electronics is almost unheard of and maybe not possible. A complete change of mindset is required and embarking on a steep learning curve that will probably never level out.

The first this you must learn is how to REALLY use a bench audio generator in conjunction with an analogue scope as you standard test method. While TV techs stare at faulty pictures on a screen - audio techs stare at distorted scope traces.

At lot of the work involves amplifiers,so you need dummy loads of 4,8 and 16 ohms capable of handling 1000 watts. I use a pair of tubular 8ohm, 100W rated resistors submerged in water. A switch box allows me to select 4,8,16 ohms and open while a test is running. For amps up to 100W, water is not needed.

All amps should be tested at full power for enough time to allow thermal faults to show up. I monitor the AC current draw of items under repair, so abnormal bias conditions are immediately obvious as is any tendency for the bias setting to runaway. Valves, PCBs and chassis can and often should be subjected to tapping or bumping while full power testing is in progress - as a way of finding intermittents.

I have a 150W 12inch speaker in a sealed cab for use with guitar amp heads, mostly to see how noisy or microphonic the valves are and to check the hum level. A scope trace does not normally let you know this with any accuracy.. I also have a solid body guitar which is rarely used.

Guitar amps do not come with spec sheets nor do they meet any particular standards of performance. What would be a fault condition in one model amp is quite normal behaviour in another. So YOU have to become familiar with the characteristics of every model you see - so you do not waste time trying to fix what the original designer could not.

Be wary of carrying out modifications to meet a customer's request - for that is the pathway to hell. Amps that have already been heavily modified usually acquire faults that are impossible to fix - all you can do is offer to reverse the mods.

The good news is that most of the schems you need are available on the net these day - plus info on common faults and problem products.

When absolutely desperate, you might even try going to a usenet group for help...



..... Phil

"For a long-time TV tech to move over to servicing musical electronics is almost unheard of and maybe not possible. A complete change of mindset is required and embarking on a steep learning curve that will probably never level out. "

Understood, FULLY. this has been challenginmg, but I think the last guy just blew off anything that wasn't easy. The boss saidf he was good at figuring out what wasn't worth fixing. i am going through his leavings actually and can't really fault him.

Anyway, switching horses like this, you say a TV tech can't do it ? WellI ain't limited to that. i built a few things. I have worked on a CNC, a wheel alignment machine and a few other things I just don't remember right now. And alot of audio and some of it high end audio.

Know what Phil, I like that you say I am not likely to succeed. Know why ? It impels me to succeed and I will fly down ther in my Learjet and smack you upside the head. (upside the head is an American saying that civilized people might not understand)

I know I am limited in this a bit, but I can still do something. Guy calls, has some kind of digital jittter eliminator. Needs a power supply and it ain't like your run of the mill wallwart. Building a little power supply for that will be a piece of cake and of course encourage more business. I have done alot of things that others said could not be done.

I was never the avrage TV technician. Now that I am inbto it feet first I can see why you might say the average TV technician might not be able to handle this. I really thought it would be simpler, easier.

Yeah right.

wrote in message
...

The state of the TV repair business what it is, I have moved into music
equipment. These guys are like the hifi audio guys. And old tube amp from
1957 is gold. Even some solid state amps are at least silver. Powered
mixers, they bust a nut every time I fix one of those.

Now comes keyboards. Regular keyboards, fine. But then we have MIDI
controllers. These used to plug into the joystick jack on PC soundcards. Now
they are USB. That is not the question though, the question is - is there
standard software for a PC that would let me test all or most of these
controllers ?

If there is I should find an older version for free and stick it on my bench
PC. I don't know about everyone else but I think if I fix a keyboard I
should test all the keys. Right ?

Also, let's say an older one comes in with the old joystick plug. My bench
PC is a laptop and does not have the jack for that. Maybe I should get a
desk PC with an older soundcard ? And if I do, would that software maybe
come with the drivers for the card ? Hell I already dropped the laptop and
broke the screen. I brought in a monitor so I could use it but it is an old
CRT with a weak CRT so I have to get something better. It was here and it
was expendable but it is ****ty. Either way, this laptop has a virus, and it
is an "upgrade" from Vista to XP. Actually doesn't run all that bad. So I
already got a mouse on it and am consieering an external keyboard so I can
just slide the thing into a nook somewhere and save bench space.

A tower I could put on the floor but then plugging anythihng into it would
be a bitch. Maybe I could make an extender for that joystick jack. With USB
it is no problem, in fact I think I have a USB extension cord.

Anyway, comment : Now you see what time can do. I was just about the
preemininent authority on TV repair in the past. Seriously. And now I am
learning. I have to. I have to because I want more money.

Just like the old days. It's like time got reset.

I am getting used to this work though. People WILL spend some money on it,
when they would throw a TV on the curb if it farts wrong. It seems that
audio of some type is what I am going to do now. Whether audiophile, and
some of them are nuts, or musicians, and all of them are nuts, maybe I can
eek out a living until I can get my SS or croak.

I have figured out the usual. I need more bench space. I need to have a spot
where I can pull guitar amp chassis and leave the cabinet there. (that
resembles how the TV business used to be a LONG time ago)) I have a test
speaker that can pretty much handle anything, it has that warning on it
"WARNING, THIS SPEAKER CAN MELT YOUR BRAIN AND ANYTHING IN YOUR FRONT
POCKETS". Actually another thing might be a power soak. I know how to make
those, the one one I have at home consists of a taoster oven and a 150 ohm
resistor. I am good up to 1,600 watts I guess but the impedance might rise
as it gets hot. If an amp burns that up I AM INPRESSED. But for work I think
I'll just order some big Dales.

At any rate, the MIDI thing is one I know very little about, the interface
and all that. Other things I do at least have a clue but any pointers would
be nice. Do you test ampos at full power before shipping them ? I think it
is a good idea but I can't rsally do it right now. It is not common that
something ****s up at really high power but sounds fine lower, but it does
happen. I would like to at least be able to say I checked it.

Another thing is I intend to connect something other than a guitar to these
amps. A simple music source but wired up to the right cables. Maybe the PC
audio but padded down and wired to both ¼" and XLR plugs. I can get the
material for the PC audio. Hell, I even got sit tones dot wave. Not that I
would use it there, but I mean I got such diverse music it is ridiculous. I
also have something called cyberkeyboard which is an onscreen keyboard you
can play with the mouse or (PC) keyboard. Problem is there is no way to make
a pure sine or square wave out of it, but if say I wanted A - 440 or C - 512
I could probably depend on its accuracy.

Anyway, whoever works on all this stuff, what works for you ? tbhough the
MIDI question is the main one, any other ideas to make me more effective at
this, I appreciate.

Thanks in advance for whatever you got.





For testing MIDI gear you need:

A cheap USB MIDI in/out box.
MidiOx (free program that does everything)
An old sound module or keyboard.

This is all I have and need.

You will need to hear the results of the keyboard you are repairing, since a
lot of faults are due to the velocity sensing not working properly. MidiOx
will display all the data but will not tell you this data is not what it
should be.

Instead of the old sound module or keyboard, you could instead use a
software sequencer with a virtual instrument. I find a physical box much
easier, but then I had one. Never bothered to install any sequence
software/sounds on the PC, way too much stuff that you need to get working
properly. If you're fixing something you need to monitor it with something
you KNOW works, not something you have to work out why it isn't right now
but it was last week.



These days I also fix a lot of USB controllers that are not keyboards, i.e.
they are DJ control surfaces or DAW control surfaces. MidiOx is essential
here to test everything, and to display faulty sliders or datapots that
throw out spurious data randomly (the equivalent of a scratchy pot on a
guitar amp).




Gareth.

Woops, forgot to mention I also have a small MIDI controller keyboard for
the odd time I have a sound module to repair, but an old MIDI keyboard will
serve as this and the sound you need to test keyboard controllers etc.


Gareth.

I know I only responded to one ittle part of you post. Sorry. do appreciate your response. I just hit that one point to respond to at that time. I will be back, but it is late as **** and I got as abuzz on.

****, that response went to the wrong thread. I think Google is on drugs.

We'll figure this out tomorrow, it is late as..... . .. . ... .

On Thursday, January 22, 2015 at 3:55:46 AM UTC-5, Gareth Magennis wrote:
Instead of the old sound module or keyboard, you could instead use a
software sequencer with a virtual instrument. I find a physical box much
easier, but then I had one. Never bothered to install any sequence
software/sounds on the PC, way too much stuff that you need to get working
properly.

You aren't kidding about that too much stuff comment. I've had a setup that worked perfectly at home and wouldn't at a gig, because every element in the chain had to be turned on in exactly the right order (PC, keyboard, interface, piano emulation software) or it couldn't sense the other pieces. Once it took more than an hour of trial and error to get a sound.

"Once it took more than an hour of trial and error to get a sound..."

Don't you just love all this automatic **** ? Supposed to make things easier right ? Yeah right.

I heard of people having problems someties with the sound on an HDMI cable. I think it was that they using a TV as a PC monitor and if, I don't remember which, either the TV or PC had to be on first or there would be no sound.. And something like that is really not resovable so they would up just using the analog audoip cables - scrw it, it works. Plus the TV speakers were not likely to be audiophile quality where someone would beed to keep the sound so pure as the driven snow by making the analog chain as short as possible.

"MidiOx is essential
here to test everything, and to display faulty sliders or datapots that
throw out spurious data randomly (the equivalent of a scratchy pot on a
guitar amp). "

Hmmm. Got a Yamaha that is stuck in sustain as well as port-something that I can never remeber the name. Where it slides from one note to another. I checked all the way form the jacks to the micro and the pulses seem to be right.

I wonder if a valid test would be to disable any and all MIDI to eliminat that as the source of the problem. I was kinds thinking the micro itself but am not sure enough to even think about ordereing one, if one can even be had.