"Arfa Daily"

( snip heaps of very good stuff)


As to questioning the credentials of the people that have replied to this,
being new, you should probably be aware that the William has a lifetime's
experience at the sharp end of service, sales and technical writing, Bob
has lectured the stuff, I spent many thousands of hours of my life working
on this stuff at nuts and bolts level, and Phil, for all his occasional
rants and outbursts, is a highly qualified service engineer whose
technical understanding and ability is without question.


** Tears ..............



..... Phil

"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...

"Arfa Daily"

( snip heaps of very good stuff)


As to questioning the credentials of the people that have replied to
this, being new, you should probably be aware that the William has a
lifetime's experience at the sharp end of service, sales and technical
writing, Bob has lectured the stuff, I spent many thousands of hours of
my life working on this stuff at nuts and bolts level, and Phil, for all
his occasional rants and outbursts, is a highly qualified service
engineer whose technical understanding and ability is without question.


** Tears ..............



.... Phil



Best wishes from the group on your up-coming birthday ... :-)

Arfa

"Sounds good. Because this involves turning the tv around (which
involves cleaning off the kitchen table) I'm saving this one for
third, even though it sounds like something I can do"

Haha, sounds like some of my houses.

"The only degaussing coil I have came from a tv I destroyed. I never
found a power supply for it, and right now I also can't remember where
it is."

You cannot just hook up an internal coil to AC, it will burn up before you can pull it away. Do you have a variac ? You can use that. Just put the coil in front of the screen, turn it up until you see the raster bend enough that there are black spots. you'll see what I mean. Then bring it down gradually, like over two seconds.

If you manually degauss it with it on, Don't leave it cranked long, it only takes a second. It upsets some vertical circuits. Also, with a coil out of a set you will not really want to go to 120 volts, those things pull a hell of alot of amperage. If you go to say 100 volts AC, as soon as you switch it on start bringing it down quickly. Either way should work.

Then just hope the connection doesn't intemittently make and screw it up again.

But I don't think there was an earthquake**, so I'm figuring the
aperture grill is still in the right place."

An earthquake strong enough to dislodge it would have take the building off the foundation. It gets knocked out when the set is dropped usually, and it has to drop pretty hard to create enough G force. However sometimes it just happens on its own. They try to match the thermal expansion coefficients as well as possible, but you are talking steel and glass here and in fact in a Sony I think a couple parts are cast iron for whatever reason.

"If you have a variac, wire a plug to the coil and plug it in. Set the variac for 50 to 60 VAC, plug your coil in and wave it around the front of the TV in a circular motion getting within 6" or so, then, continuing the motion, slowly back away from the TV until you get to a few feet away.
"

I didn't realize you had already covered that because of the noise in here.

I differ slightly, I think it would be easier to just gradually lower the variac without having to move the coil.

With your way the coil might still burn up, with my way the process might get screwed up if the contacts in the variac are not in good enough shape.

One time I had a Sony that looked like the colors were interpolated. If you are old enough you may have seen sets like Zeniths in which the grids (tube) or cathodes (solid state) were connected to those stake connectors which were identical. If you ever saw what happened when thos got mixed up, for whatever reason, this is what this set looked like exactly.

A lightning strike had magnetized the CRT so evenly and strongly that the internal degauseer didn't cut it. The external degauseer did nothing. I had to connect the internal coil to a variac and turn it all the way up to what 135 volts, and then brought it down. That fixed it. Everyone had been scratching their heads on that one.

It was really strange because the purity was actually good, just for the wrong colors. First and last time I ever saw anything like that.

"When adjusting the " purity magnets " on a conventional CRT, one sets the
test pattern to red and tries to get a even red colour all over the tube
face. "

A note about that. On a delta gun CRT it would be better to adjust the blue and on an inline gun it would be better to adjust the green but red was chosen because the eye can discern it better.

Actually on inline CRTs I learned how to adjust purity on a white field and convergence on snow (no signal). It works. However now it is just more useless knowledge. Now I am getting into the waveforms on the Ysus and Zsus. Tcon, logic board, LVDS. Where's that confounded yoke ?

Magnets aren't good as John pointed out. It's best to keep magnets away from
CRTs, including older external speakers which don't have magnetic shielding.

You could use an electric soldering gun (Weller or similar design) or
possibly a bulk tape eraser.

--
Cheers,
WB
..............


"micky" wrote in message
...

Sounds good. Because this involves turning the tv around (which
involves cleaning off the kitchen table) I'm saving this one for
third, even though it sounds like something I can do.

Thank you all. I've read all the posts as of last night, and I also
like the idea of degaussing and of using a magnet to see what happens.

Right now, I'm trying to remember where I keep all my magnets. I have
all sizes but the only ones whose whereabouts I know are on the
refrigerator.

The only degaussing coil I have came from a tv I destroyed. I never
found a power supply for it, and right now I also can't remember where
it is. There are only two rooms in the basement. It has to be in
one of them. But anyhow, I went on Freecycle to try to borrow a
degausser. It worked when I needed a metal detector, although it
seems borrowing is against the rules, and some moderators won't
approve a request to borrow. So I say it's a request to be given and
then I'll reccycle it again in a week, including to the original
owner. .

The other possibility is the shadow mask (aperature grill in a Sony) cut
loose.

There may well have been a current surge while I was gone (though
nothing else looks bad, so far, and all the clocks were still right
(Yeah, that's not a surge, but still.)

But I don't think there was an earthquake**, so I'm figuring the
aperture grill is still in the right place. When I get to the point
of moving the tv, I'll turn the screen a little and see if that has a
big effect. **We've only had one in 30 years here (Baltimore) and it
was not much. However sitting in the basement at the work bench I
could feel it, so I do get to cross earthquake off my bucket list.

There is no fix for that, though I can do wonders with magnets around
the bell of the CRT. The problem with that is that it might not be
stable.

Without a vow, I'll get back with results when I have them.

** Tears ..............

Crocodile tears.

Your seeming "gratitude" would be believable if you would commit yourself to
psychiatric treatment -- or at least unburdening yourself to a close friend
who cares about you (assuming such exists).

You could use an electric soldering gun (Weller or
similar design) or possibly a bulk tape eraser.

A bulk eraser will work, but make sure you don't accidentally shut it off near
the set. I caused serious harm to a Trinitron when this occurred.

On Jun 4, 4:15*pm, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:
You could use an electric soldering gun (Weller or
similar design) or possibly a bulk tape eraser.

A bulk eraser will work, but make sure you don't accidentally shut it off near
the set. I caused serious harm to a Trinitron when this occurred.

Yeah, a good 6 feet away, with the nearest point of the power cord
also 6 feet away when turning off.

On 6/4/2013 7:20 AM, Arfa Daily wrote:


That is 100% correct, and an adept description of how such errors are
barely noticeable on a black and white picture. Understand also that
we are talking pure CRT physics here. Don't get confused by colour
signal weightings that are part of the encoding and transmission
process. Whilst there are some differences in the efficiencies of the
phosphors, and the eye is non linear in its response to the visible
spectrum, those differences are not huge, and for white through shades
of grey, the three beam currents will not be wildly different for a
CRT that's in good emmissive order. Hence the reason that mass beam
landing errors are not anything like as important to the reproduction
of an accurate grey, as you might imagine. The fact that such errors
are much easier to see on a colour picture may well be a perceptual
one, as the human eye / brain combination, is extremely good at
handling colour perception. Single beam landing errors - convergence
errors - are of course, much easier to see on a black and white picture.

I agree with all of the above. The only other possible extra point I
could add is that purity adjustments are nominally made with a solid
raster, and typical gamma for consumer color TV may cause compression /
squashing / clipping of the video drives, making the impact of relative
phosphor efficiency differences all the less noticeable.

As to questioning the credentials of the people that have replied to
this, being new, you should probably be aware that the William has a
lifetime's experience at the sharp end of service, sales and technical
writing, Bob has lectured the stuff, I spent many thousands of hours
of my life working on this stuff at nuts and bolts level, and Phil,
for all his occasional rants and outbursts, is a highly qualified
service engineer whose technical understanding and ability is without
question.

I have no issue with the matter of whether such effects are, as you and
others have stated, correctly described, and conceded this a day or two ago.

Being a design engineer, an inveterate tinkerer, and one who very much
needs / wants to understand the underlying "why and how does it work?",
my challenge has really attempted to gain this critical thinking and
point of view. I previously thanked others for offering such insight and
do so again here and now, with an apology, if I have somehow failed to
make this apparent. The insights and explanations of those who clearly
know better than I do is much appreciated.

On 6/4/2013 7:26 AM, Arfa Daily wrote:


"Smarty" wrote in message
...
On 6/3/2013 9:54 PM, wrote:
There is purity, which is making sure the
3 beams hit their respective phosphors.

Let us assume that for some reason, all three electron guns come in at
an incorrect angle thru the shadow mask or grid or screen. The blue
electron gun hits 50% on the blue phosphor and 25% on the red and 25%
on the green phosphor. The red gun hits 50% on the red phosphor and
25% on the blue and 25% on the green phosphor. The green gun hits 50%
on the green phosphor and 25% on the red and blue phosphors. All
three phosphors are illuminated at 100%, so only differing electron
beam strengths due to compensating for differing phosphor efficiencies
will be noticeable in any color shading of white and gray areas of the
picture.
Your chosen example that the 3 guns are mis-registered uniformly, and
that the phosphors are all illuminated to 100% is not realistic. The
differences in phosphor efficiencies and the necessary beam currents
to achieve comparable light outputs are, as you acknowledged, quite
different. More important is the fact that mis-registered beams are
not, in general, spilling their mis-directed energy to reach 100%
phosphor saturation during a black and white program (versus the full
white example you have chosen). In general they will be generating
beam currents on the average well below peak white and perhaps closer
to black. The instantaneous beam current for, let's say, the least
efficient phosphor's gun, will be mistakenly exciting the most
efficient neighboring phosphors at the same time as the exact
opposite is occurring for nearby areas of the screen owing to the
fact that the most efficient gun is simultaneously exciting the wrong
phosphor area with too little energy. If the proposed mechanism /
concept made sense theoretically, then a black and white picture
should not show colored regions due to magnetization at all.

The ability to discern color differences has as much to do with human
vision as it does with the pure physical radiation of visible light
from the phosphor surfaces, and my partial explanation is that humans
see color variations which are much more subtle at some frequencies
compared to others. White and shades of gray reveal less whereas some
color fields reveal more.

For purposes of our discussion, the esential ingredient of impurity
of color is the non-homogeniety of the electromagnetic field due to
uncontrolled magnetic influences arising from nearby magnetized areas
including the shadow mask. To the extent that we are talking about
pretty drastic purity issues causing large blotches of color, some
areas of the CRT will have gross errors due to landings which are at
the extremes of the convergence system (and thus more likely to be
visible) or beyond the intended raster limits. Recall that the
purity control of the CRT and degausser is intended to deal with the
extremely small and subtle effects of the Earth's magnetic field,
whereas abrupt failure of the degausser is likely to impart a much
bigger residual effect unless corrected. Also, the magnetic
distortion is, unlike the Earth's field, very localized and highly
non-linear across the CRT surface, making the assumption that
spoiling of the beams occurs in any uniform way highly unlikely.



All of which is jolly interesting. Pity it doesn't match the actual
facts, as have been repeatedly put to you by a number of people very
well qualified to comment, by virtue of the fact that collectively,
they spent a very long time time working on this stuff at nuts and
bolts level, and have probably seen every possibility of purity error
on every type of CRT and under every set of circumstances possible ...

No disagreement that the well qualified folks here have seen it all and
done it all in terms of tackling all sorts of purity problems. My
intention has been to understand what causes the characteristics which
have been described, and I think a frank answer is that none of us fully
understand it but can offer explanations which are way beyond adequate
for repair purposes.

"William Sommer******, Stalker and TROLL"

Crocodile tears.


** You are an utter idiot on every possible level.

You are totally WRONG about me.

You post hate messages because I make you look like such a fool.

Drop dead.



.... Phil

"Smarty" wrote in message ...

I agree with all of the above. The only other possible extra point
I could add is that purity adjustments are nominally made with a
solid raster, and typical gamma for consumer color TV may cause
compression / squashing / clipping of the video drives, making
the impact of relative phosphor efficiency differences all the less
noticeable.

I don't think you understand transfer characteristics.

You're not alone. About 30 years ago, Bob Carver announced he intended to
introduce a TV monitor that eliminated the compression in the video signal.


Being a design engineer, an inveterate tinkerer, and one who very
much needs / wants to understand the underlying "why and how
does it work?", my challenge has really attempted to gain this critical
thinking and point of view. I previously thanked others for offering
such insight and do so again here and now, with an apology, if I have
somehow failed to make this apparent. The insights and explanations
of those who clearly know better than I do is much appreciated.

The operative word is "clearly".

I have been in similar situations, and when I found that there was no
communication or learning (on either side), I simply backed off and let the
dust settle.

I believe you're sincere when you say you need and want to understand
underlying principles. I am, too. But you are still clearly stuck on
"authority worship".

"Phil Allison" wrote in message ...
"William Sommer******, Stalker and TROLL"

Crocodile tears.

** You are an utter idiot on every possible level.


You are totally WRONG about me.

Then prove it. Stop posting nasty remarks when you disagree with someone.


You post hate messages because I make you look like such a fool.

And what do you make yourself look like?

When are you going to seek help?

"William Sommer******, Stalker and TROLL"

Crocodile tears.


** You are an utter idiot on every possible level.

You are totally WRONG about me.

You post hate messages because I make you look like such a fool.

Drop ****ing dead.





.... Phil

On 6/5/2013 8:31 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
"Smarty" wrote in message ...

I agree with all of the above. The only other possible extra point
I could add is that purity adjustments are nominally made with a
solid raster, and typical gamma for consumer color TV may cause
compression / squashing / clipping of the video drives, making
the impact of relative phosphor efficiency differences all the less
noticeable.

I don't think you understand transfer characteristics.

Enlighten me, William Emperor, or are your new clothes still at the dry
cleaner?

I can't wait to hear your insight on this one. Or are you intending to
send me yet another irrelevant citation?

On 6/5/2013 8:31 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
"Smarty" wrote in message ...



I believe you're sincere when you say you need and want to understand
underlying principles. I am, too. But you are still clearly stuck on
"authority worship".

Of all of your comments, this is by far the most comical.

Unlike you, who resorts to re-directing any question to a citation or
published article, as if it somehow a specific authority you might
worship answers the question, and thus relies on other authorities to
answer questions you cannot answer.....

I have been seeking explanations here, exposing my own ignorance, and
(HEAVEN FORBID) the ignorance of others, yourself included.

I have been accused of many things in my engineering career, but I
assure you that "authority worship" has never been one of them. The most
common 'complaint' I have suffered has always been: "Boy, he sure asks a
lot of questions." or "He won't take the obvious answer" I suffer these
comments gladly, since I believe this is the ONLY good way to reveal the
actual underlying facts and truth in technical areas.

Unfortunately, this same approach raises the hackles of Internet trolls,
technical wannabes, and pompous technical illiterates, who most
certainly inhabit the Internet in newsgroups, forums and elsewhere.

I believe you're sincere when you say you need and want to
understand underlying principles. I am, too. But you are still
clearly stuck on "authority worship".

Of all of your comments, this is by far the most comical.

Unlike you, who resorts to re-directing any question to a citation
or published article, as if it somehow a specific authority you might
worship answers the question, and thus relies on other authorities
to answer questions you cannot answer...

Because you don't accept me as an authority (which you shouldn't -- or anyone
else for that matter). Yet you obviously grovel in front of Peter Scheiber.

I expect people to think think through stuff for themselves, and not blindly
believe anyone. Anyone. But people generally refuse to do this, because it
frightens them. In the case of phase shift, I could not remember the exact
reason, so I spent my valuable time searching for you, and found a clear
explanation from Michael Gerzon. Have you read the article? Do you understand
what he's talking about? (I expect an answer from you on this.)

Do you know who Michael Gerzon was? (No, of course not. You probably don't
even know who Edwin Land was, even though, as you read this, you're probably
sitting in front of a device one of inventions makes possible.) Gerzon
arguably contributed more to our understanding of the psychoacoustics of
surround sound, particularly with regard to recording & playback, encoding and
decoding, than everyone else put together.


I have been accused of many things in my engineering career, but I
assure you that "authority worship" has never been one of them. The
most common 'complaint' I have suffered has always been: "Boy, he
sure asks a lot of questions." or "He won't take the obvious answer".
I suffer these comments gladly, since I believe this is the ONLY good
way to reveal the actual underlying facts and truth in technical areas.

Asking questions is only part learning these things.

You seem to argue before you have carefully considered the information you
have received. This shows a lack of respect for the people who spend their
time trying to answer your questions. I might eventually go back to David
Janszen for further information about driver modeling -- but it won't be until
after I have thoroughly studied he pointed me do.

The world is not obliged to give you a simple, easily digested answer for
every question you might ask. Do you do your homework before you ask? I do.

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...
** Tears ..............

Crocodile tears.

Your seeming "gratitude" would be believable if you would commit yourself
to psychiatric treatment -- or at least unburdening yourself to a close
friend who cares about you (assuming such exists).


TBH, I took it as a rare flash of comedy from Phil. I thought it was just
'tongue in cheek' ??

Arfa

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message ...
"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...

** Tears ..............

Crocodile tears.
Your seeming "gratitude" would be believable if you would commit
yourself to psychiatric treatment -- or at least unburdening yourself
to a close friend who cares about you (assuming such exists).

TBH, I took it as a rare flash of comedy from Phil. I thought it was
just 'tongue in cheek'?

You are much too forgiving of Phil's grotesque misbehavior, simply because he
is extremely knowledgeable about electronics and electronics servicing.

It is he who created the problem with his beyond-rude behavior. Neither I nor
anyone in this group is obliged to tolerate it or remain silent.

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...
"Arfa Daily" wrote in message ...
"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...

** Tears ..............

Crocodile tears.
Your seeming "gratitude" would be believable if you would commit
yourself to psychiatric treatment -- or at least unburdening yourself
to a close friend who cares about you (assuming such exists).

TBH, I took it as a rare flash of comedy from Phil. I thought it was
just 'tongue in cheek'?

You are much too forgiving of Phil's grotesque misbehavior, simply because
he is extremely knowledgeable about electronics and electronics servicing.

It is he who created the problem with his beyond-rude behavior. Neither I
nor anyone in this group is obliged to tolerate it or remain silent.


But in this case, I really think that it was just his way of expressing
tongue in cheek humour. Perhaps it doesn't translate into American ? British
and Australian humour are very similar

Arfa

I seems we have another one now. Your personal demon.

"Arfa Daily"

TBH, I took it as a rare flash of comedy from Phil. I thought it was
just 'tongue in cheek'?

You are much too forgiving of Phil's grotesque misbehavior, simply
because he is extremely knowledgeable about electronics and electronics
servicing.

It is he who created the problem with his beyond-rude behavior. Neither I
nor anyone in this group is obliged to tolerate it or remain silent.

But in this case, I really think that it was just his way of expressing
tongue in cheek humour. Perhaps it doesn't translate into American ?
British and Australian humour are very similar


** Of course it was intended as humour.

WS takes everything so damn literally and thinks he can read people's minds
based only on posted words.

Wot a fool.


.... Phil

"Smarty"

I have been accused of many things in my engineering career, but I assure
you that "authority worship" has never been one of them. The most common
'complaint' I have suffered has always been: "Boy, he sure asks a lot of
questions." or "He won't take the obvious answer" I suffer these comments
gladly, since I believe this is the ONLY good way to reveal the actual
underlying facts and truth in technical areas.


** The explanation for many things is often simple enough to understand but
very hard for those not familiar with the matter to BELIEVE - Einstein is
said to have made such a remark about his theory of Relativity.

The usual solution to "wise up" the doubters is by use of a convincing
demonstration - however those same doubters can invent their own test then
come up with damn near anything.

What NEVER works is to hold a "mid air" debate using hypothetical examples
and thought experiments - cos that is little more than playing mindless
word games.

The nature of web forums IS such that it lends itself only to the latter
approach and renders the former near impossible.


Unfortunately, this same approach raises the hackles of Internet trolls,
technical wannabes, and pompous technical illiterates, who most certainly
inhabit the Internet in newsgroups, forums and elsewhere.

** See above for the explanation.

Anecdote:

Many moons ago, I came up with a simple demonstration that showed clearly
how a number of different make and model stereo power amplifiers sounded
exactly the same. This was to clear up the notion strongly held by their
various owners that each possessed its own, distinctive "sound".

Most who tried the new test were flatly unimpressed, returned to their old
and discredited test method and continued to believe in non existent
differences as before.

My simple test is explained he

http://sound.westhost.com/absw.htm


..... Phil

"Phil Allison" wrote in message ...
"Arfa Daily"

TBH, I took it as a rare flash of comedy from Phil. I thought it was
just 'tongue in cheek'?

The only interesting "flash" from Phil would be spontaneous combustion.

You are much too forgiving of Phil's grotesque misbehavior,
simply because he is extremely knowledgeable about electronics
and electronics servicing.

It is he who created the problem with his beyond-rude behavior. Neither
I nor anyone in this group is obliged to tolerate it or remain silent.

But in this case, I really think that it was just his way of expressing
tongue in cheek humour. Perhaps it doesn't translate into American? British
and Australian humour are very similar.

** Of course it was intended as humour.

Of course it wasn't. You are emotionally disturbed person who says whatever he
likes because he knows he can get away with it.

I see the same thing in every UseNet group. Person A attacks person B, and
when B defends himself, he's jumped on as the cause of the problem. Human
beings are moral idiots. They tolerate bad behavior, then blame the victim.

Phil is clearly /capable/ of doing serious harm to someone (though whether he
actually would is unknowable). When it happens, everyone in this group will
say "Oh, gee, I never suspected. He was just making jokes." Yeah, sure.

Phil is not a lighthearted clown. He has emotional problems. And if you can't
see that, if you think the rude, nasty things he says are "just in fun"...
What can I say?

"Phil Allison" wrote in message ...

Many moons ago, I came up with a simple demonstration
that showed clearly how a number of different make and
model stereo power amplifiers sounded exactly the same.

Not so. The correct conclusion would have been that the amplifiers were
indistinguishable under the test conditions. There has never been any proof of
what ABX testing does or does not reveal. You are assuming it is a valid test.
It might or might not be. But no one wants to go to the trouble to find out.

Amplifiers that "measure well" can and do sound different. (I can give an
example if you like.) Now, I can suggest a listening test that probably reveal
real differences among amplifiers. But when I suggest it, you will scream your
heads off and call me all sorts of names.

"William Sommerwerck"


** Of course it was intended as humour.

WS takes everything so damn literally and thinks he can read
people's minds based only on posted words.

Of course it wasn't.


** I am being stalked by WS.

Only people with a mental illness stalk others, on usenet or in real life.

Only people with a mental illness try to punish those who were not
sufficiently polite to them on usenet or in real life.




..... Phil

On 6/5/2013 10:08 PM, Phil Allison wrote:
"Smarty"
I have been accused of many things in my engineering career, but I assure
you that "authority worship" has never been one of them. The most common
'complaint' I have suffered has always been: "Boy, he sure asks a lot of
questions." or "He won't take the obvious answer" I suffer these comments
gladly, since I believe this is the ONLY good way to reveal the actual
underlying facts and truth in technical areas.

** The explanation for many things is often simple enough to understand but
very hard for those not familiar with the matter to BELIEVE - Einstein is
said to have made such a remark about his theory of Relativity.

The usual solution to "wise up" the doubters is by use of a convincing
demonstration - however those same doubters can invent their own test then
come up with damn near anything.

What NEVER works is to hold a "mid air" debate using hypothetical examples
and thought experiments - cos that is little more than playing mindless
word games.

The nature of web forums IS such that it lends itself only to the latter
approach and renders the former near impossible.


Unfortunately, this same approach raises the hackles of Internet trolls,
technical wannabes, and pompous technical illiterates, who most certainly
inhabit the Internet in newsgroups, forums and elsewhere.
** See above for the explanation.

Anecdote:

Many moons ago, I came up with a simple demonstration that showed clearly
how a number of different make and model stereo power amplifiers sounded
exactly the same. This was to clear up the notion strongly held by their
various owners that each possessed its own, distinctive "sound".

Most who tried the new test were flatly unimpressed, returned to their old
and discredited test method and continued to believe in non existent
differences as before.

My simple test is explained he

http://sound.westhost.com/absw.htm


.... Phil

As a forum for lively conversation, the internet is arguably unbeatable
given its scope both demographically as well as the global reach, but
sadly it does indeed create the very hollow and unconvincing exchanges
you describe.

On the subject of amplifier comparisons, I share your belief that much
of the purported differences people supposedly hear and pay a huge
premium to own are non-existent, or at least highly exaggerated. Biases
arising from "golden-eared" pretentious reviewers add to the deception,
as does the fundamental greed which causes dealers and manufacturers to
create artificial claims and product distinctions which unwary consumers
pay needlessly to own. Pretentious buyers and their egos are also ripe
for being exploited. Simple differences in amplitude correlate highly
with "goodness" in the ears of the uninformed.

Some of the earlier studies on perceptual coding which were done at the
onset of mpeg compression and other lossy techniques amply demonstrated
how very easily the ear and brain can be fooled. The human hearing
apparatus is an awesome and miraculous thing, yet it has virtually no
memory nor quantitative ways to compare A/B, and is, in the final
analysis, mediated by a very imprecise thinking and cognition process
which is highly subjective and, to this day, not well understood.

Human frailty and limited perceptual range put aside, we also have the
ultimate issue of creating "high fidelity" simulations of things which
never can be absolute. The Cleveland Philharmonic sounds a lot different
in the orchestra pit than it does from the balcony. And the acoustic
impact of a full audience on reflected energy may differ from season to
season based on something as simple as heavier winter fabrics filling
the concert hall. In the final analysis, any pretense that there is some
form of "best" solution need only look at the same type of market-driven
hype surrounding wines, cigars, gourmet foods, and many other
discretionary purchases. The world is loaded with "experts" who
pontificate and critique and extol and denounce, but they are,
ultimately, narcissistic, have hidden agendas, or feel their judgement
somehow matters more because they have a journalistic megaphone. Sadly,
the internet has enlarged their audiences.

End of rant--------------------------------------

"William Sommer****** TROLL"

"Phil Allison"
Many moons ago, I came up with a simple demonstration
that showed clearly how a number of different make and
model stereo power amplifiers sounded exactly the same.

Not so.

** It is so, if you put back the missing context for my remark.

You OVER-SNIPPING ****WIT !!!


The correct conclusion would have been that the amplifiers were
indistinguishable under the test conditions.

** That was my conclusion.

The test conditions were those of normal, home use.


There has never been any proof of what ABX testing does or does not
reveal.


** Wrong and irrelevant - my test had nothing to do with ABX.


Amplifiers that "measure well" can and do sound different.


** The ones in my test did not and that is all I set out to prove.

( They were ones I had available to me for loan or had been recently
repaired.)

(I can give an example if you like.)


** The amps compared included a Quad 405, a Crown D150 and several similar
amps built using a very elegant design by Australian engineer CT Murray.
Each was carefully bench tested prior to the listening test to make sure it
had no issues.

BTW:

I am not one bit interested in your ratbag opinions on audio or ANYTHING
else.

**** off - you ridiculous TROLL.


..... Phil

On Wed, 5 Jun 2013 12:54:02 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

You are much too forgiving of Phil's grotesque misbehavior, simply because he
is extremely knowledgeable about electronics and electronics servicing.

Add me to the list of those that are willing to tolerate Phil. I
don't really care about style, tact, diplomacy, and professionalism.
There are places where all those are important but Usenet is not one
of those places. I'm only interested in the knowledge. At the bottom
of every garbage dumpster is a diamond. However, few are willing to
wade though the trash in order to find it.

Even the Nobel prize committee is willing to overlook mental problems
as long as the knowledge delivered is worthwhile.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Forbes_Nash,_Jr.

While I found the discussion between you and Mr Smarty on quadraphonic
history and technology very interesting and well worth reading, I did
not find anything of value in the associated name calling and
character assassinations engaged by both participants. It's really
not necessary to accuse someone of ineptitude in order to disagree
with them. I suggest you both ignore and lose the personal attacks.




--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 6/5/2013 11:17 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 5 Jun 2013 12:54:02 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

You are much too forgiving of Phil's grotesque misbehavior, simply because he
is extremely knowledgeable about electronics and electronics servicing.
Add me to the list of those that are willing to tolerate Phil. I
don't really care about style, tact, diplomacy, and professionalism.
There are places where all those are important but Usenet is not one
of those places. I'm only interested in the knowledge. At the bottom
of every garbage dumpster is a diamond. However, few are willing to
wade though the trash in order to find it.

Even the Nobel prize committee is willing to overlook mental problems
as long as the knowledge delivered is worthwhile.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Forbes_Nash,_Jr.

While I found the discussion between you and Mr Smarty on quadraphonic
history and technology very interesting and well worth reading, I did
not find anything of value in the associated name calling and
character assassinations engaged by both participants. It's really
not necessary to accuse someone of ineptitude in order to disagree
with them. I suggest you both ignore and lose the personal attacks.
Jeff,

You are, of course, correct. Let me offer an apology to William and to
this newsgroup for having provided at least half of the noise and
argumentation here. The personal attacks certainly do not add to the
body of technical understanding, and no doubt add confusion and anxiety
needlessly.

Ironically, I spend some amount of time with my grand-kids preaching
fairness, absolutely no name-calling, and respect for others. And in
fact, this very topic arose tonight at a birthday celebration, where my
5 year old grad-daughter was dealing with bullying at school.

I will sincerely avoid all such activities henceforth in the spirit of
going forward amicably, and again offer apologies to those whom I may
have offended.

On Tue, 4 Jun 2013 16:59:36 -0400, "Wild_Bill"
wrote:

Magnets aren't good as John pointed out. It's best to keep magnets away from

I'd done it already by then, but only a little and I'm glad to say it
didn't make the picture worse.

CRTs, including older external speakers which don't have magnetic shielding.

You could use an electric soldering gun (Weller or similar design) or
possibly a bulk tape eraser.

I don't have a bulk tape eraser or a Weller soldering gun, but I do
have a WEN "75" soldering gun. That's the one in dark red plastic
made to look like an actual gun, a revolver, with indentations between
the places the bullets are supposed to be.

It has one light bulb at the base of the heating element, but the
element doesn't have two separated connections like the Weller does.

Instead it has one thin 2,5" rod, a tube with a heating element and
the return wire in it too.

Do you think that is close enough to the Weller??


After my Freecycle request, someone wrote that a table fan will work
as a degausser. He wrote "The fan I used had an induction motor** like
the ones found on cheap turntables.The magnetism came off the side. It
removed the mess a magnetized screwdriver had caused.(nephew: "Look at
the neat patterns on the screen!")" Is this a risky idea?

**Basically, an induction motor is any motor without brushes, right?
Like almost all small and mediuml fans?

"Smarty


You are, of course, correct. Let me offer an apology to William and to
this newsgroup for having provided at least half of the noise and
argumentation here. The personal attacks certainly do not add to the body
of technical understanding, and no doubt add confusion and anxiety
needlessly.

Ironically, I spend some amount of time with my grand-kids preaching
fairness, absolutely no name-calling, and respect for others. And in fact,
this very topic arose tonight at a birthday celebration, where my 5 year
old grad-daughter was dealing with bullying at school.

I will sincerely avoid all such activities henceforth in the spirit of
going forward amicably, and again offer apologies to those whom I may have
offended.


** Wot a wimp out.

This newsgroups is chock full of ****wit trolls and William one of the
worst.

Word of advice:

Never apologise to a troll - it only encourages them.




.... Phil

"micky"


** FFS stop wasting your and our time.

Is the set's de-gaussing thermistor working or not ??

Does it go * BONG * at switch on or NOT ??

Odds-on it is the problem and when fixed the set will de-gauss itself.



.... Phil

On Thu, 6 Jun 2013 15:43:59 +1000, "Phil Allison"
wrote:


"micky"


** FFS stop wasting your and our time.

Is the set's de-gaussing thermistor working or not ??

Don't know yet. No time or space to take it apart. Have to make
room.

Does it go * BONG * at switch on or NOT ??

No, I made a special effort to listen. Turned it on several times.
I hear a relay click, but the sound is almost the same turning it off
and turning it on.

But I don't think this tv ever went BONG, like one other did.

Odds-on it is the problem and when fixed the set will de-gauss itself.

That's added incentive to turn it around and take the back off.
Thanks.



... Phil

"micky"
"Phil Allison"

"micky"


** FFS stop wasting your and our time.

Is the set's de-gaussing thermistor working or not ??

Don't know yet. No time or space to take it apart. Have to make
room.

Does it go * BONG * at switch on or NOT ??

No, I made a special effort to listen. Turned it on several times.
I hear a relay click, but the sound is almost the same turning it off
and turning it on.

But I don't think this tv ever went BONG, like one other did.

Odds-on it is the problem and when fixed the set will de-gauss itself.

That's added incentive to turn it around and take the back off.


** Be very careful poking about on the PCB !!!!!

Some Sony Trinitron portable sets were "live chassis" jobs.

Almost all the circuitry is at main voltage - so you need an isolation
tranny to work on them.


..... Phil

"Arfa Daily"

As to purity errors being visible on black and white pictures, other than
the fact that the the phosphors have different efficiencies, and the drive
levels are different for assorted reasons, it doesn't actually matter that
much that the phosphors are being excited by the 'wrong' beams. The mix
will still make something that approximates to white - or shades of grey -
sufficiently well for it not to be glaringly obvious. More a sort of
'dirty patch' on the picture. However, as soon as a colour picture is
viewed on the same gaussed up CRT, the error is immediately visible


** I am still using a CRT monitor for my PC.

When I hold a speaker magnet about 6 inches away, white areas of the screen
become mottled with grey shadows.

However, the coloured parts change colour, blue to red, red to green etc.

QED.


..... Phil

"Many moons ago, I came up with a simple demonstration that showed clearly
how a number of different make and model stereo power amplifiers sounded
exactly the same. This was to clear up the notion strongly held by their
various owners that each possessed its own, distinctive "sound".
"

Perhaps, but Bob Carver proved the opposite.

"Many moons ago, I came up with a simple demonstration that showed
clearly
how a number of different make and model stereo power amplifiers sounded
exactly the same. This was to clear up the notion strongly held by their
various owners that each possessed its own, distinctive "sound".
"

Perhaps, but Bob Carver proved the opposite.


** No he did not and neither has anyone else.

I have read about his "mimicking" of a few high end US amplifiers by
monkeying about with output impedances and bandwidths.

There is no similarity with my test.

All the amps used had very low output impedance and flat response
(+/-0.5dB ) to 25kHz - same as 98% of all hi-fi power amps.



.... Phil

"Phil Allison" wrote in message ...
"William Sommerwerck"

** Of course it was intended as humour.

WS takes everything so damn literally and thinks he can read
people's minds based only on posted words.

Of course it wasn't.


** I am being stalked by WS.
Only people with a mental illness stalk others, on usenet or in real life.
Only people with a mental illness try to punish those who were not
sufficiently polite to them on usenet or in real life.

Now I /am/ laughing. (Really.) Problem is, he means it.