On Mon, 15 Nov 2010 17:37:11 -0500, "Charles"
wrote:



"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
.. .

http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

Sorry, but the year is 2010 and repair of recent and future electronic
products is not going to happen, as least as what can be accomplished by Joe
consumer. For the factory authorized geek squad, sure they PERHAPS have
access to data and modules and software and they can, in some cases, repair
electronic items.

I'd love for it be so, by the way. I detest sending stuff to landfills and
to recycling centers. But the truth is that there is not much inside a
modern electronic gadget that is repairable. SMT has rendered component
replacement impossible, for many cases. Schematics are no longer
obtainable. Embedded software makes troubleshooting almost impossible.
Repair parts are not available. And the list goes on.

Richard Feynman (a Nobel winner) often talked about taking radios apart. If
he would try that now, he would move on to biology.



Wrong on so many counts that it is laughable. SMT devices require new
techniques. ONE example of many similar events. About a year ago I
obtained a 'dead' 50" plasma TV. Plug it in, it tries to turn on,
then the red light on the front panel starts flashing 2 short, 1 long.
Download the service manual (free from Elektrotanya.com), it's
flashing error 12; problem with the 12V supply. Read the service
manual. 12V error may be due to a problem with the audio amp or with
the DC-DC converter. Disconnect the audio amp, no change. Read more
of the service manual. Overloading the 12V supply by the DC-DC
converter may be due to shorted mosfets. In that case, replace both
the mosfets and the controller, all are SMD parts. (The DC-DC-
converter is part of the Small Signal Board, available online for
under $100).

Order the parts from Digikey, for a total cost of less than $10,
including shipping. Use Chipquick and a soldering iron to remove the
old parts, solder braid to remove the old solder and Chipquick,
install the new parts. Reassemble the TV, cross my fingers, plug it
in. It turns on and works perfectly. Just for luck I verify all
power supply voltages and update it to the latest firmware.

The biggest problem was moving the 100 lb + monster around.

I've said this repeatedly, new technology requires new techniques.
The people who claim it's unrepairable either have a vested interest
in selling a new one or are incompetent.

PlainBill

I wonder if the dead TV was free, and if you hadn't been able to download a
pirated service manual for free, if you would have been willing to pay
$60-$100 for a service manual.
Essentially, you got lucky with the availability of the service
documentation.

Nearly anything man-made can be repaired.

New technology requires new equipment to be able to service it.. I see
micro-sized SMT components that are barely visible, and I wouldn't care to
handle repairs involving these components without the proper tools and a
very good microscope.

I have a B&L stereo zoom microscope, head worn stereo loupes (Eschenback and
others) and various video cameras that would be helpful in viewing the
micro stuff, but even these tools don't make repair jobs on the newer micro
stuff simple.

I have hot air and typical soldering/desoldering equipment, and professional
(above average hobbiest/enthusiast) troubleshooting equipment, and I still
don't have any desire to repair any of this cheaply made, newer technology
equipment.

I admit that if someone were to give me an out-of-warranty, free, expensive
piece of equipment, I'd be curious enough to spend a little time
troubleshooting just to satisfy my curiosity.

I prefer to buy quality older equipment that can be repaired (large CRT
stuff excluded), instead of microprocessor-based, firmware operated stuff
that's generally much more difficult to repair, even if any
documentation/online-hack info is available.

--
Cheers,
WB
..............


wrote in message
...
On Mon, 15 Nov 2010 17:37:11 -0500, "Charles"
wrote:



"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
. ..

http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

Sorry, but the year is 2010 and repair of recent and future electronic
products is not going to happen, as least as what can be accomplished by
Joe
consumer. For the factory authorized geek squad, sure they PERHAPS have
access to data and modules and software and they can, in some cases,
repair
electronic items.

I'd love for it be so, by the way. I detest sending stuff to landfills
and
to recycling centers. But the truth is that there is not much inside a
modern electronic gadget that is repairable. SMT has rendered component
replacement impossible, for many cases. Schematics are no longer
obtainable. Embedded software makes troubleshooting almost impossible.
Repair parts are not available. And the list goes on.

Richard Feynman (a Nobel winner) often talked about taking radios apart.
If
he would try that now, he would move on to biology.



Wrong on so many counts that it is laughable. SMT devices require new
techniques. ONE example of many similar events. About a year ago I
obtained a 'dead' 50" plasma TV. Plug it in, it tries to turn on,
then the red light on the front panel starts flashing 2 short, 1 long.
Download the service manual (free from Elektrotanya.com), it's
flashing error 12; problem with the 12V supply. Read the service
manual. 12V error may be due to a problem with the audio amp or with
the DC-DC converter. Disconnect the audio amp, no change. Read more
of the service manual. Overloading the 12V supply by the DC-DC
converter may be due to shorted mosfets. In that case, replace both
the mosfets and the controller, all are SMD parts. (The DC-DC-
converter is part of the Small Signal Board, available online for
under $100).

Order the parts from Digikey, for a total cost of less than $10,
including shipping. Use Chipquick and a soldering iron to remove the
old parts, solder braid to remove the old solder and Chipquick,
install the new parts. Reassemble the TV, cross my fingers, plug it
in. It turns on and works perfectly. Just for luck I verify all
power supply voltages and update it to the latest firmware.

The biggest problem was moving the 100 lb + monster around.

I've said this repeatedly, new technology requires new techniques.
The people who claim it's unrepairable either have a vested interest
in selling a new one or are incompetent.

PlainBill

On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 00:34:59 -0500, "Wild_Bill"
wrote:

Nearly anything man-made can be repaired.

Yes, but it might not be worth fixing, especially if a replacement is
low cost. I constantly run into problems spending inordinate amounts
of time fixing some trivial device. Sure, it can be fixed, but I
can't build a business on such repairs. Expensive and exotic hardware
is about all I can make a profit on. For example, it takes me about 4
billable hours to clean up and upgrade a virus infected computer. At
$75/hr, it's almost more economical to purchase a newer and faster
machine, than to fix the old one. So, in order to keep from losing
the customer, I have to heavily discount my time and do it for less
than posted rate. Otherwise, they run to their favorite discounter
and just start over with a new machine. Same with some low end
entertainment electronics. It's even worse with hardware. I can
easily fix a typical PC power supply for a few dollars in parts and
about 1.2 billable hours. However, who's going to pay me $100 to fix
a $25 power supply?

What's needed is some assistance from the manufacturer. Schematics,
test points, easily available parts, troubeshooting info, easy access,
diagnostics, etc will all reduce the amount of time I burn fixing
something, which translates to a lower cost repair.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 00:34:59 -0500, "Wild_Bill"
wrote:

I wonder if the dead TV was free, and if you hadn't been able to download a
pirated service manual for free, if you would have been willing to pay
$60-$100 for a service manual.
Essentially, you got lucky with the availability of the service
documentation.

Nearly anything man-made can be repaired.

New technology requires new equipment to be able to service it.. I see
micro-sized SMT components that are barely visible, and I wouldn't care to
handle repairs involving these components without the proper tools and a
very good microscope.

I have a B&L stereo zoom microscope, head worn stereo loupes (Eschenback and
others) and various video cameras that would be helpful in viewing the
micro stuff, but even these tools don't make repair jobs on the newer micro
stuff simple.

I have hot air and typical soldering/desoldering equipment, and professional
(above average hobbiest/enthusiast) troubleshooting equipment, and I still
don't have any desire to repair any of this cheaply made, newer technology
equipment.

I admit that if someone were to give me an out-of-warranty, free, expensive
piece of equipment, I'd be curious enough to spend a little time
troubleshooting just to satisfy my curiosity.

I prefer to buy quality older equipment that can be repaired (large CRT
stuff excluded), instead of microprocessor-based, firmware operated stuff
that's generally much more difficult to repair, even if any
documentation/online-hack info is available.

--
Cheers,
WB
No, the TV was not free. I have enough confidence in my skills that I
was willing to pay the seller's asking price for it. I'm not sure
where you came up with that $60-$100 price for a service manual; My
experience was that $10 was a more typical price, although one major
manufacturer sent them out free upon letterhead request. Your
assertion that I got lucky is pure bull**** - I KNEW the service
manual was available. But that is beside the point, many service
manuals are available at litte or no cost. Other equipment (LCD
monitors, for example) is simple enough that a service manual isn't
necessary.

I agree, a hot air station would make the rework easier, so what? The
fact is that a $15 kit of SolderQuik will substitute for your fancy
hot air system.

All told, you have proved my point. SMT does not make repair
impossible; I know it makes repair easier. Certainly it was easier to
replace the three SMT ICs than it would have been to replace the
larger through-hole devices.

Further, you have verified my other belief. It's not the cost of the
equipment that makes the difference, it's the brains of the person
using it.

PlainBill
.............


wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 15 Nov 2010 17:37:11 -0500, "Charles"
wrote:



"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
...

http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

Sorry, but the year is 2010 and repair of recent and future electronic
products is not going to happen, as least as what can be accomplished by
Joe
consumer. For the factory authorized geek squad, sure they PERHAPS have
access to data and modules and software and they can, in some cases,
repair
electronic items.

I'd love for it be so, by the way. I detest sending stuff to landfills
and
to recycling centers. But the truth is that there is not much inside a
modern electronic gadget that is repairable. SMT has rendered component
replacement impossible, for many cases. Schematics are no longer
obtainable. Embedded software makes troubleshooting almost impossible.
Repair parts are not available. And the list goes on.

Richard Feynman (a Nobel winner) often talked about taking radios apart.
If
he would try that now, he would move on to biology.



Wrong on so many counts that it is laughable. SMT devices require new
techniques. ONE example of many similar events. About a year ago I
obtained a 'dead' 50" plasma TV. Plug it in, it tries to turn on,
then the red light on the front panel starts flashing 2 short, 1 long.
Download the service manual (free from Elektrotanya.com), it's
flashing error 12; problem with the 12V supply. Read the service
manual. 12V error may be due to a problem with the audio amp or with
the DC-DC converter. Disconnect the audio amp, no change. Read more
of the service manual. Overloading the 12V supply by the DC-DC
converter may be due to shorted mosfets. In that case, replace both
the mosfets and the controller, all are SMD parts. (The DC-DC-
converter is part of the Small Signal Board, available online for
under $100).

Order the parts from Digikey, for a total cost of less than $10,
including shipping. Use Chipquick and a soldering iron to remove the
old parts, solder braid to remove the old solder and Chipquick,
install the new parts. Reassemble the TV, cross my fingers, plug it
in. It turns on and works perfectly. Just for luck I verify all
power supply voltages and update it to the latest firmware.

The biggest problem was moving the 100 lb + monster around.

I've said this repeatedly, new technology requires new techniques.
The people who claim it's unrepairable either have a vested interest
in selling a new one or are incompetent.

PlainBill

On Tue, 16 Nov 2010 23:02:51 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 00:34:59 -0500, "Wild_Bill"
wrote:

Nearly anything man-made can be repaired.

Yes, but it might not be worth fixing, especially if a replacement is
low cost. I constantly run into problems spending inordinate amounts
of time fixing some trivial device. Sure, it can be fixed, but I
can't build a business on such repairs. Expensive and exotic hardware
is about all I can make a profit on. For example, it takes me about 4
billable hours to clean up and upgrade a virus infected computer. At
$75/hr, it's almost more economical to purchase a newer and faster
machine, than to fix the old one. So, in order to keep from losing
the customer, I have to heavily discount my time and do it for less
than posted rate. Otherwise, they run to their favorite discounter
and just start over with a new machine. Same with some low end
entertainment electronics. It's even worse with hardware. I can
easily fix a typical PC power supply for a few dollars in parts and
about 1.2 billable hours. However, who's going to pay me $100 to fix
a $25 power supply?

What's needed is some assistance from the manufacturer. Schematics,
test points, easily available parts, troubeshooting info, easy access,
diagnostics, etc will all reduce the amount of time I burn fixing
something, which translates to a lower cost repair.
Very true. I've got one on the bench behind me. It's a Thinkpad R30.
The original problem was trivial - the CMOS battery was dead. The
fumble fingered fool who tried to replace it popped the battery holder
off the main board. (Poor design - it should have been glued in
place). Now it gets more difficult - the entire top of the case must
be pulled to allow clearance for a soldering iron. Once that has been
accomplished a couple of touches with a soldering iron and the holder
is back in place. Only two more problems. The same fumble fingered
fool has managed to mangle both USB ports. One is broken free from
the motherboard. Fortunately, the present owner doesn't care. As it
is, he's going to cringe at the bill.

PlainBill

I think you're dreaming of $10 service manuals for plasma TVs in the year
2010.

You got lucky in being able to obtain a service manual, from whatever
source.
Maybe you'll realize it was luck, when you see another golden opportunity,
but no service literature is available.

I know when service literature isn't available, a project turns into a
research project.. and I believe many others have BTDT too.

There were test equipment manufacturers that would send a free schematic for
obsolete equipment years ago.. but even BK Precision, Beckman and numerous
others wouldn't even send a owner/user guide for free, and that was going
back quite a few years.

I was in the repair/service industry for years, and I know what dealing with
the public is like, and it's not worth the aggravation, for any price,
especially now when consumer goods manufacturers don't support their
products.

Apparently, you get bent out of shape easily.
I was only saying that I won't work on the cheap new crap, despite having a
good deal of test and repair equipment, because I prefer not to.
The equipment is for my own use, since I won't do repairs for anyone other
than a few close friends.
But I'll tell them to throw away their $40 VCR, because I'm not interested
in using up my time on such things.
So what if I do own several pieces of hot air equipment? It's just for my
convenience, so I don't need to improvise a method to remove a part, not
that I would be lost without it.. I've improvised in the past, and having
better equipment definitely beats improvising.. again, BTDT.

You didn't really make a point about those tiny, micro-sized SMT components
that populate most boards now.. ICs aren't difficult to see or replace.

I also said I prefer to buy older stuff, because it is more easily
repairable, and I do maintain my own stuff.
Marantz, Sony, and others, don't send free service manuals, although there
are very affordable third party suppliers.. eBay sellers that have used or
scanned manuals, (whether legally or not.. I don't know).

Teac Aerospace Division, purchased by Goodrich, doesn't supply service
manuals, or any systems related literature. I don't think I'd even be able
to find an agent or service center to buy spare parts from.
There are a multitude of other manufacturers, which don't make cheap
consumer goods, that don't sell or provide product documentation to any
outside agents.

But you're correct.. all that one needs to repair anything electronic, is a
soldering iron and the exceptional sense which you possess.

--
Cheers,
WB
..............


wrote in message
...
No, the TV was not free. I have enough confidence in my skills that I
was willing to pay the seller's asking price for it. I'm not sure
where you came up with that $60-$100 price for a service manual; My
experience was that $10 was a more typical price, although one major
manufacturer sent them out free upon letterhead request. Your
assertion that I got lucky is pure bull**** - I KNEW the service
manual was available. But that is beside the point, many service
manuals are available at litte or no cost. Other equipment (LCD
monitors, for example) is simple enough that a service manual isn't
necessary.

I agree, a hot air station would make the rework easier, so what? The
fact is that a $15 kit of SolderQuik will substitute for your fancy
hot air system.

All told, you have proved my point. SMT does not make repair
impossible; I know it makes repair easier. Certainly it was easier to
replace the three SMT ICs than it would have been to replace the
larger through-hole devices.

Further, you have verified my other belief. It's not the cost of the
equipment that makes the difference, it's the brains of the person
using it.

PlainBill
.............


wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 15 Nov 2010 17:37:11 -0500, "Charles"
wrote:



"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
m...

http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

Sorry, but the year is 2010 and repair of recent and future electronic
products is not going to happen, as least as what can be accomplished by
Joe
consumer. For the factory authorized geek squad, sure they PERHAPS have
access to data and modules and software and they can, in some cases,
repair
electronic items.

I'd love for it be so, by the way. I detest sending stuff to landfills
and
to recycling centers. But the truth is that there is not much inside a
modern electronic gadget that is repairable. SMT has rendered component
replacement impossible, for many cases. Schematics are no longer
obtainable. Embedded software makes troubleshooting almost impossible.
Repair parts are not available. And the list goes on.

Richard Feynman (a Nobel winner) often talked about taking radios apart.
If
he would try that now, he would move on to biology.



Wrong on so many counts that it is laughable. SMT devices require new
techniques. ONE example of many similar events. About a year ago I
obtained a 'dead' 50" plasma TV. Plug it in, it tries to turn on,
then the red light on the front panel starts flashing 2 short, 1 long.
Download the service manual (free from Elektrotanya.com), it's
flashing error 12; problem with the 12V supply. Read the service
manual. 12V error may be due to a problem with the audio amp or with
the DC-DC converter. Disconnect the audio amp, no change. Read more
of the service manual. Overloading the 12V supply by the DC-DC
converter may be due to shorted mosfets. In that case, replace both
the mosfets and the controller, all are SMD parts. (The DC-DC-
converter is part of the Small Signal Board, available online for
under $100).

Order the parts from Digikey, for a total cost of less than $10,
including shipping. Use Chipquick and a soldering iron to remove the
old parts, solder braid to remove the old solder and Chipquick,
install the new parts. Reassemble the TV, cross my fingers, plug it
in. It turns on and works perfectly. Just for luck I verify all
power supply voltages and update it to the latest firmware.

The biggest problem was moving the 100 lb + monster around.

I've said this repeatedly, new technology requires new techniques.
The people who claim it's unrepairable either have a vested interest
in selling a new one or are incompetent.

PlainBill

"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
...

On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 00:34:59 -0500, "Wild_Bill"
wrote:

Nearly anything man-made can be repaired.

Yes, but it might not be worth fixing, especially if a replacement is
low cost. I constantly run into problems spending inordinate amounts
of time fixing some trivial device. Sure, it can be fixed, but I
can't build a business on such repairs.

Are you not contradicting yourself here?

On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 18:28:29 -0500, "Charles"
wrote:

"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
.. .

On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 00:34:59 -0500, "Wild_Bill"
wrote:

Nearly anything man-made can be repaired.

Yes, but it might not be worth fixing, especially if a replacement is
low cost. I constantly run into problems spending inordinate amounts
of time fixing some trivial device. Sure, it can be fixed, but I
can't build a business on such repairs.

Are you not contradicting yourself here?

No. I'm a compulsive repairman. Everything I see needs to be fixed.
If I can't fix it, it needs to be re-engineered. Everything can be
designed or built better. Spending my time on such efforts is not
particular profitable, but neither are most other hobbies. If I
wanted to get rich quick, it wouldn't be in the repair biz (unless I
was fixing something really expensive and exotic).

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
...

On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 18:28:29 -0500, "Charles"
wrote:

"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
.. .

On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 00:34:59 -0500, "Wild_Bill"
wrote:

Nearly anything man-made can be repaired.

Yes, but it might not be worth fixing, especially if a replacement is
low cost. I constantly run into problems spending inordinate amounts
of time fixing some trivial device. Sure, it can be fixed, but I
can't build a business on such repairs.

Are you not contradicting yourself here?

No. I'm a compulsive repairman. Everything I see needs to be fixed.
If I can't fix it, it needs to be re-engineered. Everything can be
designed or built better. Spending my time on such efforts is not
particular profitable, but neither are most other hobbies. If I
wanted to get rich quick, it wouldn't be in the repair biz (unless I
was fixing something really expensive and exotic).

Jeff, sorry but, you REALLY lost me. Who wrote "Yes, but it might be not
worth fixing ...."

You seem to be one who is facing a new reality that is very distasteful and
is thrashing about both internally and externally (your rants here).

Again, sorry, not trying to bust your crotch as we actually agree as to the
fundamental issue (which is the disregard for waste and recycling issues
caused by modern manufacturing methods). I also like fixing things and do
it when I can and am mostly frustrated these days.

However, in the USA at least, the latest and the greatest has become the
mantra for most folks with bucks to spend. Heck, they send stuff to the
recycling center that works just fine because they want the new bells and
whistles. Sigh!

On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 17:27:22 -0500, "Charles"
wrote:



"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
.. .

On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 18:28:29 -0500, "Charles"
wrote:

"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
. ..

On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 00:34:59 -0500, "Wild_Bill"
wrote:

Nearly anything man-made can be repaired.

Yes, but it might not be worth fixing, especially if a replacement is
low cost. I constantly run into problems spending inordinate amounts
of time fixing some trivial device. Sure, it can be fixed, but I
can't build a business on such repairs.

Are you not contradicting yourself here?

No. I'm a compulsive repairman. Everything I see needs to be fixed.
If I can't fix it, it needs to be re-engineered. Everything can be
designed or built better. Spending my time on such efforts is not
particular profitable, but neither are most other hobbies. If I
wanted to get rich quick, it wouldn't be in the repair biz (unless I
was fixing something really expensive and exotic).

Jeff, sorry but, you REALLY lost me. Who wrote "Yes, but it might be not
worth fixing ...."

It would be helpful if you would explain where I was contradicting
myself. I don't see it.

I take the ewaste and recyling problem seriously, but in this
newsgroup, I'm largely preaching to those that already believe.
However, in all honesty, I had never bothered to consider repair as an
alternative to recycling, primarily because the cost of repair of
often far more than the cost of recycling.

You seem to be one who is facing a new reality that is very distasteful and
is thrashing about both internally and externally (your rants here).

Again, sorry, not trying to bust your crotch as we actually agree as to the
fundamental issue (which is the disregard for waste and recycling issues
caused by modern manufacturing methods). I also like fixing things and do
it when I can and am mostly frustrated these days.

However, in the USA at least, the latest and the greatest has become the
mantra for most folks with bucks to spend. Heck, they send stuff to the
recycling center that works just fine because they want the new bells and
whistles. Sigh!

Last week, I went to the local recycler to unload some eJunk and drag
home some more. On top of the pile was a nearly new HP DeskJet 8500
all-in-one printer, that looked like it had been removed from the
shipping box, run perhaps once or twice, and then tossed. It's been
recently replaced by the 8600. The owner probably wanted the latest
greatest and just tossed it. I left it because I have no customer
that needs an injet printer.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 17:27:22 -0500, "Charles"
wrote:



"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
.. .

On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 18:28:29 -0500, "Charles"
wrote:

"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
. ..

On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 00:34:59 -0500, "Wild_Bill"
wrote:

Nearly anything man-made can be repaired.

Yes, but it might not be worth fixing, especially if a replacement is
low cost. I constantly run into problems spending inordinate amounts
of time fixing some trivial device. Sure, it can be fixed, but I
can't build a business on such repairs.

Are you not contradicting yourself here?

No. I'm a compulsive repairman. Everything I see needs to be fixed.
If I can't fix it, it needs to be re-engineered. Everything can be
designed or built better. Spending my time on such efforts is not
particular profitable, but neither are most other hobbies. If I
wanted to get rich quick, it wouldn't be in the repair biz (unless I
was fixing something really expensive and exotic).

Jeff, sorry but, you REALLY lost me. Who wrote "Yes, but it might be not
worth fixing ...."

It would be helpful if you would explain where I was contradicting
myself. I don't see it.

I take the ewaste and recyling problem seriously, but in this
newsgroup, I'm largely preaching to those that already believe.
However, in all honesty, I had never bothered to consider repair as an
alternative to recycling, primarily because the cost of repair of
often far more than the cost of recycling.

You seem to be one who is facing a new reality that is very distasteful and
is thrashing about both internally and externally (your rants here).

Again, sorry, not trying to bust your crotch as we actually agree as to the
fundamental issue (which is the disregard for waste and recycling issues
caused by modern manufacturing methods). I also like fixing things and do
it when I can and am mostly frustrated these days.

However, in the USA at least, the latest and the greatest has become the
mantra for most folks with bucks to spend. Heck, they send stuff to the
recycling center that works just fine because they want the new bells and
whistles. Sigh!

Last week, I went to the local recycler to unload some eJunk and drag
home some more. On top of the pile was a nearly new HP DeskJet 8500
all-in-one printer, that looked like it had been removed from the
shipping box, run perhaps once or twice, and then tossed. It's been
recently replaced by the 8600. The owner probably wanted the latest
greatest and just tossed it. I left it because I have no customer
that needs an injet printer.


Isn't that a wireless/ethernet/USB model?

--
For the last time: I am not a mad scientist! I m just a very ticked
off scientist!!!

One reason people toss out working inkjet printers is that a new one costs
only a little more than the replacement ink.

On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 13:15:34 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

Last week, I went to the local recycler to unload some eJunk and drag
home some more. On top of the pile was a nearly new HP DeskJet 8500
all-in-one printer, that looked like it had been removed from the
shipping box, run perhaps once or twice, and then tossed. It's been
recently replaced by the 8600. The owner probably wanted the latest
greatest and just tossed it. I left it because I have no customer
that needs an injet printer.

Isn't that a wireless/ethernet/USB model?

Yes. I have a customer with one. It was kinda tricky to setup via
wireless but I managed (without reading the instructions). OfficeJet
Pro 8500.
http://www.shopping.hp.com/product/printer/Officejet/1/storefronts/CB022A%2523B1H
I didn't think of taking a photo. Sorry. The power supply had been
separated and thrown into a different bin by the staff, so that would
have been a problem. Still, it was almost new with, no scratches, no
damage, no signs of wear, no signs of use, etc. What a waste...

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

William Sommerwerck wrote:

One reason people toss out working inkjet printers is that a new one costs
only a little more than the replacement ink.


Not all of them. That 8500 retails for $400.

--
For the last time: I am not a mad scientist! I m just a very ticked
off scientist!!!

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 13:15:34 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

Last week, I went to the local recycler to unload some eJunk and drag
home some more. On top of the pile was a nearly new HP DeskJet 8500
all-in-one printer, that looked like it had been removed from the
shipping box, run perhaps once or twice, and then tossed. It's been
recently replaced by the 8600. The owner probably wanted the latest
greatest and just tossed it. I left it because I have no customer
that needs an injet printer.

Isn't that a wireless/ethernet/USB model?

Yes. I have a customer with one. It was kinda tricky to setup via
wireless but I managed (without reading the instructions). OfficeJet
Pro 8500.
http://www.shopping.hp.com/product/printer/Officejet/1/storefronts/CB022A%2523B1H
I didn't think of taking a photo. Sorry. The power supply had been
separated and thrown into a different bin by the staff, so that would
have been a problem. Still, it was almost new with, no scratches, no
damage, no signs of wear, no signs of use, etc. What a waste...


That is a $400 printer.


--
For the last time: I am not a mad scientist! I m just a very ticked
off scientist!!!

The reasons you state are the reasons I stopped doing repairs for money. The
consumer equipment service/repair industry wasn't a thriving opportunity
when I got away from it years ago.

Retail costs come down, and production quality, resulting in cheap (to buy
new) equipment/toys/trash with more problems than before.
**** that noise.

Way back when, decades ago.. consumer home entertainment equipment
manufacturers had levels of dealers, who performed service and repairs,
stocked parts and sent their techs to training courses.
Manufacturers supported their products with spare parts, service and
training literature and in-home repairs were just normal business to keep
customers satisfied with those brands.

Today, the Chinese are designing and producing modern home entertainment
equipment (and much more), which essentially has no brand name.
Companies with brand names can contract to buy 100k units with their name on
them, and I seriously doubt that they want to buy Chinglish service
literature, so that is an optional decision. They may outsource/hire a
company to provide them with a limited number of service manuals for a
couple of warranty work centers, or they may hire a repair depot to just
"wing it" for warranty repairs without any literature (but high tech
universal, programmable, automated GenRad? test rigs and some sharp
personnel using hot air or infrared rework equipment).

Warranty repairs don't have to be actual repairs, just a replacement with a
refurbished unit from the repair depot. At this point in the life of the
product (almost obsolete already) a little shipping cost is just to try to
keep the customer happy with that brand, but probably more importantly -
meeting the legal requirements of the warranty.
So, the shipping company becomes a major player in the brand name's support
chain. The consumer returns a failed product to a store or sends it to a
repair depot, and the shipper delivers a refurbished unit to the consumer..
done.

If a brand name "manufacturer" chooses to contract the units from a Chinese
source with a very good track record for quality control/reliability, they
may just scrap or bulk sell/broker the failures within the warranty period,
and renegotiate the terms of the contract to reflect their losses.
They're sure as hell not going to return them to China.

So the brand name "manufacturer" saves huge bucks by not supporting the rest
of the support chain that was normal decades ago.. and those are likely some
massive profits compared to back then, but those same product support levels
would be extremely expensive to support nowadays.
They may offer some 800-HEY-RTFM phone support for dummies, also outsourced.

I firmly believe that it's unlikely that consumers will effect changes in
the new economic business models.. the gubbmint in the U.S. aggressively
supports corporate profits and global "trading", and generally insures that
the consumers are "managed".

There are companies that produce schematics from equipment circuit boards,
but if the process was highly profitable, there would be an abundant supply
of literature.
If there were more independent service shops, the process might be
profitable, but it's a little too late.
Until someone develops an economical bed-of-nails test jig and software to
translate signals into schematics, many future repairs are going to be
poke-n-hope.
BTW, the test jig will also need to decipher the firmware that the
"manufacturer" likely owns as intellectual property.

The independent service/repair shop isn't needed for these new economic
business models. The consumers aren't interested in supporting independent
shops anymore, they'd rather have a new shiney toy than a repaired obsolete
item.
The brand name saves huge bucks, and the independent repair shops stop
accepting consumer goods.

Repair shops can adjust by specializing in better quality equipment that has
real value (not just a sparkley attraction).. commercial, industrial,
high-end audio/video, or vintage gear, for example.
Many other businesses are also affected.. HW Sams(?) Photofact and other
publishers, test equipment manufacturers, and other third party suppliers.

I don't mind repairing equipment that's worth repairing, but only for myself
or a few close friends (and not their relatives or neighbors).
They all know better than to suggest me "just looking" at a $9 portable CD
player or $40 VCR.. I just won't.

Have you ever seen one of those posters/signs on a wall, with a big dot and
the message "Hit Head Here"?
You might want to look at repairing consumer goods from a different
perspective.

--
Cheers,
WB
..............


"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 00:34:59 -0500, "Wild_Bill"
wrote:

Nearly anything man-made can be repaired.

Yes, but it might not be worth fixing, especially if a replacement is
low cost. I constantly run into problems spending inordinate amounts
of time fixing some trivial device. Sure, it can be fixed, but I
can't build a business on such repairs. Expensive and exotic hardware
is about all I can make a profit on. For example, it takes me about 4
billable hours to clean up and upgrade a virus infected computer. At
$75/hr, it's almost more economical to purchase a newer and faster
machine, than to fix the old one. So, in order to keep from losing
the customer, I have to heavily discount my time and do it for less
than posted rate. Otherwise, they run to their favorite discounter
and just start over with a new machine. Same with some low end
entertainment electronics. It's even worse with hardware. I can
easily fix a typical PC power supply for a few dollars in parts and
about 1.2 billable hours. However, who's going to pay me $100 to fix
a $25 power supply?

What's needed is some assistance from the manufacturer. Schematics,
test points, easily available parts, troubeshooting info, easy access,
diagnostics, etc will all reduce the amount of time I burn fixing
something, which translates to a lower cost repair.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

They may offer some 800-HEY-RTFM phone support
for dummies, also outsourced.

It's claimed that a high percentage of "defective" products are actually
okay -- the user couldn't figure out how to work them.