I've noticed something curious. I prefer the 4:3 ratio whenever
possible as the resolution is good. However, when high-definition is
being utilized, or when I switch to widescreen, I notice that where the
screen is black on the sides (in 4:3 ratio) the pixels are larger, and
the resolution is inferior. Whereas, the mid portion of the screen used
in the 4:3 format is normal. Is this temporary or permanent damage?
...and how can I get it back in line with the rest of the screen?

In addition, I'm noticing 'jaggies', especially with the color red.
With all the problems I've listed with this television, and the fact
that degaussing didn't help, am I wrong to conclude this tube is going
bad?

aether wrote:
In addition, I'm noticing 'jaggies', especially with the color red.
With all the problems I've listed with this television, and the fact
that degaussing didn't help, am I wrong to conclude this tube is going
bad?

You didn't mention a model number or other helpfull information to
determine anything.

---
Met vriendelijke groet,

Maarten Bakker.

It's a Philips "30 widescreen, 'HD Ready' CRT television. It's not even
a year old.

http://www.electronicsnation.com/en/.../30PW862HT.JPG

"aether" wrote in message
ups.com...
In addition, I'm noticing 'jaggies', especially with the color red.
With all the problems I've listed with this television, and the fact
that degaussing didn't help, am I wrong to conclude this tube is going
bad?


Very unlikely the tube is going bad, that's virtually never the problem with
a TV, nor is the switch, but those two always seem to be the first suspects
of nearly everybody.

I've noticed something curious. I prefer the 4:3 ratio whenever
possible as the resolution is good. However, when high-definition is
being utilized, or when I switch to widescreen, I notice that where the
screen is black on the sides (in 4:3 ratio) the pixels are larger, and
the resolution is inferior. Whereas, the mid portion of the screen used
in the 4:3 format is normal. Is this temporary or permanent damage?
..and how can I get it back in line with the rest of the screen?

Aether,
If I understand you correctly, the problem shows up when you're watching a
4:3 broadcast but which is menu set to fill the screen of your wide screen TV.
If so, that effect is probably normal. Rather than making all the people on the
screen "short and fat" or showing black bars on the sides, one menu setting
tailors the image such that the middle of the screen is proportionally correct
but the sides are non-linear (stretched) to fill the screen. That effect will be
most obvious if the camera pans across a scene. A round object will appear
elongated at the right and left sides of the screen.
The problem is reversed when you view a widescreen "letterbox" movie on a
standard 4:3 TV set. With that scenario, you have the option of pan&scan or
letterbox bars top and bottom... or watching people "tall and skinny". Any fixed
screen device (standard TV, big screen or HD) will have the same limitations
trying to adjust to different screen formats. That's one reason a separate
projector (LCD, DLP, etc.) and screen (or just a white wall) is nice. It can
project whatever format is input... no need to "diddle" the image to fit the
screen.

Ray
--

My return addy is spamblocked. To reply, remove the zeroes.

The TV is almost always in 4:3 mode. When the entire screen is
utilized, however, where the black was (in 4:3) the resolution (pixels)
are distorted. The pixels are larger, and the resolution inferior. In
the middle portion of the screen, the resolution is largely uneffected.
Although it (the distorted pixels) even creep up on the sides of it.
(4:3) Is this a temporary problem, and if so, how do you correct it?
The thing I don't get, is that the problem has appeared out of nowhere.
So, it has me thinking the tube is on it's way out.

"aether" wrote in message
oups.com...
The TV is almost always in 4:3 mode. When the entire screen is
utilized, however, where the black was (in 4:3) the resolution (pixels)
are distorted. The pixels are larger, and the resolution inferior. In
the middle portion of the screen, the resolution is largely uneffected.
Although it (the distorted pixels) even creep up on the sides of it.
(4:3) Is this a temporary problem, and if so, how do you correct it?
The thing I don't get, is that the problem has appeared out of nowhere.
So, it has me thinking the tube is on it's way out.


If the tube was on it's way out the problem would be uniform over the whole
screen. The only thing that will affect only part of the tube is phosphor
burn, which will make the less used area of the tube appear brighter and
sharper than the more used areas.

The only thing that will affect only part of the tube is phosphor
burn, which will make the less used area of the tube appear brighter
and
sharper than the more used areas.

Is phosphor burn temporary or permanent? Why would the manufacturer
have the option of reducing screen size if it leads to such damage?
Shouldn't they provide a warning? I also saw the screen flicker in
brightness for a moment. It was the whole screen, and returned to
normal.

The cause is high voltage regulation. You need to order the HV
Regulation Kit.
I think the Kit # is 4835 310 57628 for 30" but check to be sure before
ordering.

TJ

The cause is high voltage regulation. You need to order the HV
Regulation Kit.
I think the Kit # is 4835 310 57628 for 30" but check to be sure before
ordering.

TJ

TJJEWEL wrote:
The cause is high voltage regulation. You need to order the HV
Regulation Kit.
I think the Kit # is 4835 310 57628 for 30" but check to be sure before
ordering.

TJ


Honestly, I don't know too much about such devices. I have a rough idea
of what they do, and I do know what they look like, but that's it. In
any event, the damage that's already done wouldn't be fixed by a HV
Regulation Kit, would it?

This is likely normal for this unit. Many stretch modes distort the image
at the sides much more than the middle. It is not your tube nor is the
phosphor damaged. It is likely a digital artifact of the processing done to
fill the screen. Try a different picture format or mode if the set has one.

You might also post the brand and model, along with the sorce for the
signal. What is the HD source, what resolution, and what do you mean by
switching to widescreen. All HD is widescreen. You are likely seeing NTSC
digitized and compressed then stretched to fill the screen, which can cause
exactly the effect you describe. Compression often is worse on the edges
and the stretch modes in many sets make this more obvious.

Leonard

"aether" wrote in message
oups.com...
I've noticed something curious. I prefer the 4:3 ratio whenever
possible as the resolution is good. However, when high-definition is
being utilized, or when I switch to widescreen, I notice that where the
screen is black on the sides (in 4:3 ratio) the pixels are larger, and
the resolution is inferior. Whereas, the mid portion of the screen used
in the 4:3 format is normal. Is this temporary or permanent damage?
..and how can I get it back in line with the rest of the screen?

Leonard Caillouet wrote:
This is likely normal for this unit. Many stretch modes distort the image
at the sides much more than the middle. It is not your tube nor is the
phosphor damaged. It is likely a digital artifact of the processing done to
fill the screen. Try a different picture format or mode if the set has one.

You might also post the brand and model, along with the sorce for the
signal. What is the HD source, what resolution, and what do you mean by
switching to widescreen. All HD is widescreen. You are likely seeing NTSC
digitized and compressed then stretched to fill the screen, which can cause
exactly the effect you describe. Compression often is worse on the edges
and the stretch modes in many sets make this more obvious.

Leonard

If I leave it on widescreen, will the pixels on the sides return to
their former appearance? As of now, they're definitely distorted. Even
when I 'degauss', nothing changes.

You might also post the brand and model, along with the sorce for the
signal. What is the HD source, what resolution, and what do you mean
by
switching to widescreen. All HD is widescreen.

It's a 30" Philips widescreen. (model: 30PW862H)

As for the switching; my particular cable provider only offers a couple
channels in HDTV, so I haven't made the switch yet. So, when the video
game console is utilized (Xbox), which is hooked up via the
'High-definition pack', 480p mode is engaged -- and it's full screen.
Whereas the digital cable is set at 4:3 because I like the resolution
better.

"aether" wrote in message
oups.com...
Leonard Caillouet wrote:
This is likely normal for this unit. Many stretch modes distort the
image
at the sides much more than the middle. It is not your tube nor is the
phosphor damaged. It is likely a digital artifact of the processing done
to
fill the screen. Try a different picture format or mode if the set has
one.

You might also post the brand and model, along with the sorce for the
signal. What is the HD source, what resolution, and what do you mean by
switching to widescreen. All HD is widescreen. You are likely seeing
NTSC
digitized and compressed then stretched to fill the screen, which can
cause
exactly the effect you describe. Compression often is worse on the edges
and the stretch modes in many sets make this more obvious.

Leonard

If I leave it on widescreen, will the pixels on the sides return to
their former appearance? As of now, they're definitely distorted. Even
when I 'degauss', nothing changes.

Again, post your brand and model and the sources that you are using.
Explain what "leave it on widescreen" means. Leave what on widescreen? The
format setting on the set? The format of the source? HD or SD?

You are not providing any real info on what you are doing and the signal
conditions. If you want answers you have to provide clear descriptions of
your equipment, signal conditions, settings, and application.

Leonard

"aether" wrote in message
oups.com...
You might also post the brand and model, along with the sorce for the
signal. What is the HD source, what resolution, and what do you mean
by
switching to widescreen. All HD is widescreen.

It's a 30" Philips widescreen. (model: 30PW862H)

As for the switching; my particular cable provider only offers a couple
channels in HDTV, so I haven't made the switch yet. So, when the video
game console is utilized (Xbox), which is hooked up via the
'High-definition pack', 480p mode is engaged -- and it's full screen.
Whereas the digital cable is set at 4:3 because I like the resolution
better.

So you are watching 4:3 signals and setting your television to fill the
entire screen when you see this distortion? If this is so, you are seeing
exactly what I described earlier, a combination of artifacts that have
nothing to do with the CRT. The image is intentionally distorted more at
the sides to fill the screen with less "fattening" of the primary image area
in the center. This distortion combined with the compression in the digital
cable, which will also give up more data at the edges, gives you the effect
that you are seeing. Get HD.

Leonard

You are probably dealing with digital artifacting.
This is common and simply the cause of a not very good digital video
processor in addition to some input signal digital related artifacting.

The red striping is also common to low quality digital decoder
processors. This may be from the digital cable box and not the tv set,
but the digital signal processor in the tv is going to make it look
much worse.

If you have any real concerns, you need to have a home theater expert
technician that not only does installations on multiple brand digital
tv systems but is also a qualified repair technician. Then they will
be able to look at the picture and determine if it is a failure or an
artifacting problem. Anything else without actually seeing it is a
wild guess.

For the past few months, I've watched television in 4:3. In 4:3, the
sides are black. However, when the one device which utilizes HD (albeit
480p) is used, the entire screen is used. This is where the pixels on
the sides are more visible, and they're distorted. The reason for this,
and the other thread I posted, is the problem didn't exist one week
ago. None of the problems; the subtle wavy lines, the 'jaggies', the
bleeding red (and basically any color, esp. with movement), or the
distorted side pixels, existed. That's what leads me to believe this
tube is going bad.

"aether" wrote in message
oups.com...
For the past few months, I've watched television in 4:3. In 4:3, the
sides are black. However, when the one device which utilizes HD (albeit
480p) is used, the entire screen is used. This is where the pixels on
the sides are more visible, and they're distorted. The reason for this,
and the other thread I posted, is the problem didn't exist one week
ago. None of the problems; the subtle wavy lines, the 'jaggies', the
bleeding red (and basically any color, esp. with movement), or the
distorted side pixels, existed. That's what leads me to believe this
tube is going bad.

The symptoms you describe are NOT a CRT going bad. It might be a problem in
the digital processing in the television, but it could just as easily be
that the signal processing in the Philips set is crap and exagerates
artifacts that would be there in any set due to the combination of signal,
format, compression, and processing.

David is right. Have a very experienced tech/system designer who is
familiar with the specific equipment that you have evaluate the system.

Leonard

The curious thing about all this, is that it happened less than one
month after purchasing the high-definition pack for the Xbox console.
It's almost as if the TV couldn't handle it.

I do have a two-year, in-house warranty on it. I just might use it. I
appreciate all the help I've received thus far.

Is phosphor burn temporary or permanent? Why would the manufacturer
have the option of reducing screen size if it leads to such damage?
Shouldn't they provide a warning? I also saw the screen flicker in
brightness for a moment. It was the whole screen, and returned to
normal.


Burn is permanent, they give you the option of reducing screen size so you
can watch normal sized pictures just like they give you the option of
sitting there staring at a paused video game all day, a bit of either won't
hurt but long term it will wear the phosphors you use sooner and there's
nothing you can do about that. They do give you a warning, it's in the
manual of every widescreen TV I've seen.


In this case it sounds like there's a problem with the TV though which as I
said several times before is *not* related to phosphor burn or the tube in
general.

"aether" wrote in message
oups.com...
TJJEWEL wrote:
The cause is high voltage regulation. You need to order the HV
Regulation Kit.
I think the Kit # is 4835 310 57628 for 30" but check to be sure before
ordering.

TJ


Honestly, I don't know too much about such devices. I have a rough idea
of what they do, and I do know what they look like, but that's it. In
any event, the damage that's already done wouldn't be fixed by a HV
Regulation Kit, would it?


What damage? Take the damn thing to a competent technician before damage is
done by fooling around with it.

"aether" wrote in message
oups.com...
The curious thing about all this, is that it happened less than one
month after purchasing the high-definition pack for the Xbox console.
It's almost as if the TV couldn't handle it.

I do have a two-year, in-house warranty on it. I just might use it. I
appreciate all the help I've received thus far.


Coincidences like that happen all the time, if the xbox were to damage the
set it would happen immediately. You have the warranty, use it.

The difference between the center and where the 'side bars' were, is
definitely caused by burn-in. I kept the TV on 4:3 most of the time
because that's what looked the best. This option causes damage ('burn
in') to the area where there's no picture, making it stand out from the
rest of the screen. Too bad the instructions that came with it said
nothing of burn-in. I reread it for the tenth time; not a single word
about it. So, even though widescreen or 16:9 looks like crap when not
using HDTV, you're suppose to keep it on that mode -- or risk damaging
your TV.

Burn in does not result in the pixelation that you described. The burn in
in your application would be in the 4:3 area which has naturally aged from
use while the phosphors on the sides are more unused and more like new.

Your TV maker and your dealer should have educated you on burn in. If you
turn the contrast down to a reasonable level it won't be much of an issue.
Even using it out of the box on the factory defaults it likely is not an
issue this early in the life of the set.

Leonard

"aether" wrote in message
oups.com...
The difference between the center and where the 'side bars' were, is
definitely caused by burn-in. I kept the TV on 4:3 most of the time
because that's what looked the best. This option causes damage ('burn
in') to the area where there's no picture, making it stand out from the
rest of the screen. Too bad the instructions that came with it said
nothing of burn-in. I reread it for the tenth time; not a single word
about it. So, even though widescreen or 16:9 looks like crap when not
using HDTV, you're suppose to keep it on that mode -- or risk damaging
your TV.

I've always kept contrast and brightness levels extremely low.
(contrast lower than brightness) Under 40%. I despise what brightness,
especially, does to a picture. However, other people use this set as
well and have finagled with the calibration -- much to my ire. Only for
a shortwhile, however. (as they know it annoys me) This couldn't have
caused damage, correct?

That brand is one of the worst

Why don't you take the advice which has been given to you
and call in a Professional and have the fault diagnosed.
If you do not wish to do so then replace the TV after
all its only an Appliance..............Isn't it ?

kip


"aether" wrote in message
oups.com...
I've always kept contrast and brightness levels extremely low.
(contrast lower than brightness) Under 40%. I despise what brightness,
especially, does to a picture. However, other people use this set as
well and have finagled with the calibration -- much to my ire. Only for
a shortwhile, however. (as they know it annoys me) This couldn't have
caused damage, correct?

On 18 Aug 2005 00:03:51 -0700, "aether"
wrote:

The difference between the center and where the 'side bars' were, is
definitely caused by burn-in. I kept the TV on 4:3 most of the time
because that's what looked the best. This option causes damage ('burn
in') to the area where there's no picture

No...

Tom

, making it stand out from the
rest of the screen. Too bad the instructions that came with it said
nothing of burn-in. I reread it for the tenth time; not a single word
about it. So, even though widescreen or 16:9 looks like crap when not
using HDTV, you're suppose to keep it on that mode -- or risk damaging
your TV.

Tom MacIntyre wrote:
The difference between the center and where the 'side bars' were, is
definitely caused by burn-in. I kept the TV on 4:3 most of the time
because that's what looked the best. This option causes damage ('burn
in') to the area where there's no picture

No...

Tom

If not, it's fairly strange how the distorted pixels correlate almost
precisely with the 4:3 black bars. I'd like to understand this fully,
as this won't be the last set I purchase.

One thing I wish every set had, was the ability to lock calibration
features. That means no possibility of changing them without the
password / pin number. I'm tired of worrying about other individuals
tinkering with the subtle beauty I've attained through persistent and
tedious observation. Of course, then you'd have retards who lost their
pin number. I've never understood why most people enjoy their picture
deformed with high levels of brightness and contrast.

"It's not bright enough."
- sign of an idiot

On 18 Aug 2005 13:12:31 -0700, "aether"
wrote:

Tom MacIntyre wrote:
The difference between the center and where the 'side bars' were, is
definitely caused by burn-in. I kept the TV on 4:3 most of the time
because that's what looked the best. This option causes damage ('burn
in') to the area where there's no picture

No...

Tom

If not, it's fairly strange how the distorted pixels correlate almost
precisely with the 4:3 black bars. I'd like to understand this fully,
as this won't be the last set I purchase.

It's because the artifacts are brighter than the black bars.


One thing I wish every set had, was the ability to lock calibration
features. That means no possibility of changing them without the
password / pin number. I'm tired of worrying about other individuals
tinkering with the subtle beauty I've attained through persistent and
tedious observation. Of course, then you'd have retards who lost their
pin number. I've never understood why most people enjoy their picture
deformed with high levels of brightness and contrast.

I prefer a subdued picture also, but most sets, when set up properly,
are reasonable with 50% brightness and up to 100% contrast. 40% is
pretty low for contrast on a correctly calibrated set. The SMPTE
colour bar signal has blacker-than-black and lighter-than black that
allows perfect calibration...you see what you are supposed to see, and
don't see what you are not supposed to.

When I worked in broadcasting we used a colourimeter. It was a
hand-held device that was held over a white screen. It had a hole in
its middle with a calibrated white surround, and the idea was to
adjust the monitor so that there was no discernible difference between
the screen and the colorimeter's surround. In the end, though...a
chacun son gout.

Tom


"It's not bright enough."
- sign of an idiot

"aether" wrote in message
oups.com...
Tom MacIntyre wrote:
The difference between the center and where the 'side bars' were, is
definitely caused by burn-in. I kept the TV on 4:3 most of the time
because that's what looked the best. This option causes damage ('burn
in') to the area where there's no picture

No...

Tom

If not, it's fairly strange how the distorted pixels correlate almost
precisely with the 4:3 black bars. I'd like to understand this fully,
as this won't be the last set I purchase.

I think it's already been mentioned... when the TV is in "4:3" mode, it's
stretching a 4:3 (almost square) image to fit a wide rectangular (16:9)
screen. This is so that you don't get the black bars on the sides.
I have a Panasonic HD model that does the exact same thing. It leaves the
center of the image unchanged, but the extreme left and right portions of
the picture (maybe 1/4 of the picture on either side) is stretched
horizontally to fill the screen.

If you have the TV in 16:9 mode then it doesn't stretch anything, and you
get a 4:3 image unstretched in the middle of the screen, leaving the black
bars on either side. When you're looking an HD signal, it's 16:9 natively
and so there is no stretching needed for the image to fill the screen; it
should look fine in this case.

If you added the XBox recently, maybe you changed a setting that affects how
your set scales the image... or you changed the input that your cable box
(if you are using one) comes in on, or even changed the type of connection
between the TV and cable receiver. I switched to a DVI connection between
my cable box and TV, and had to make a change in the configuration menu on
the cable box to get the aspect ratios right.

Hope that helps!

JM wrote:
I think it's already been mentioned... when the TV is in "4:3" mode, it's
stretching a 4:3 (almost square) image to fit a wide rectangular (16:9)
screen. This is so that you don't get the black bars on the sides.
I have a Panasonic HD model that does the exact same thing. It leaves the
center of the image unchanged, but the extreme left and right portions of
the picture (maybe 1/4 of the picture on either side) is stretched
horizontally to fill the screen.

If you have the TV in 16:9 mode then it doesn't stretch anything, and you
get a 4:3 image unstretched in the middle of the screen, leaving the black
bars on either side. When you're looking an HD signal, it's 16:9 natively
and so there is no stretching needed for the image to fill the screen; it
should look fine in this case.

If you added the XBox recently, maybe you changed a setting that affects how
your set scales the image... or you changed the input that your cable box
(if you are using one) comes in on, or even changed the type of connection
between the TV and cable receiver. I switched to a DVI connection between
my cable box and TV, and had to make a change in the configuration menu on
the cable box to get the aspect ratios right.

Hope that helps!


Hi, JM

The funny thing about the high-definition pack for the Xbox (which is
in 480p mode), is that I can't adjust the ratio. It's always in
widescreen mode. (taking up the entire screen; no bars on top, bottom,
or sides) It either a limitation of the television itself, or the
high-def pack.

What's got me more concerned now, however, is the flickering. The
brightness seems to flicker, especially when in 480p mode. It's as if
someone's quickly highering and lowering the settings.

I've thoroughly examined the pixels on the left and right sides. They
are definitely damaged. Whereas the resolution is smooth as you
approach the middle from the sides. It's as if only part of the color
is present in the side pixels. Strange indeed.