This new, very well-insulated, foil-backed, house has one drawback...
the garage door opener range with the garage door closed is only about
20'

Any ideas on how I could extend that range?

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

"Jim Thompson" wrote in
message news
This new, very well-insulated, foil-backed, house has one drawback...
the garage door opener range with the garage door closed is only about
20'

Any ideas on how I could extend that range?

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

Extend the antenna on the receiver. To the outside if possible.

tm

Jim Thompson wrote:

This new, very well-insulated, foil-backed, house has one drawback...
the garage door opener range with the garage door closed is only about
20'

Any ideas on how I could extend that range?


Retune the receiver? 30 years ago, I repaired several brands as a
sideline. Some worked reliable for well over two blocks after a careful
alignment.

--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

---
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On 5/7/2014 3:27 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
This new, very well-insulated, foil-backed, house has one drawback...
the garage door opener range with the garage door closed is only about
20'

Any ideas on how I could extend that range?

...Jim Thompson


Here's a gut that added coax and put the antenna outside.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smwjAOvVACY

ISTR some one added a reflector wire behind the antenna to solve his
problem. And why not a director.
Mikek

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On 5/7/2014 4:27 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
This new, very well-insulated, foil-backed, house has one drawback...
the garage door opener range with the garage door closed is only about
20'

Any ideas on how I could extend that range?

You could work on improving the antenna, or you could just put the
receiver outside and run a wire to it from the opener. I believe the
"antenna" on the units I have seen is just a piece of wire hanging from
the unit a foot or so. Not much to work with there... at least I would
find it easier to just move the receiver to the outside of the house.

--

Rick

On Wed, 07 May 2014 13:27:29 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

This new, very well-insulated, foil-backed, house has one drawback...
the garage door opener range with the garage door closed is only about
20'

If the receiver is a separate unit, or if the antenna input is obvious,
do as already suggested and move the receiver or connect an external
antenna.

If not, and if for some reason you don't want to rip into the thing to
get at the antenna terminals, find out what frequency it works at
(probably 400-ish MHz), hang a simple dipole antenna outside your garage
with coax or twin-lead going to another antenna right at the opener.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

On Wed, 07 May 2014 16:29:29 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Wed, 07 May 2014 13:27:29 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

This new, very well-insulated, foil-backed, house has one drawback...
the garage door opener range with the garage door closed is only about
20'

If the receiver is a separate unit, or if the antenna input is obvious,
do as already suggested and move the receiver or connect an external
antenna.

If not, and if for some reason you don't want to rip into the thing to
get at the antenna terminals, find out what frequency it works at
(probably 400-ish MHz), hang a simple dipole antenna outside your garage
with coax or twin-lead going to another antenna right at the opener.

Maybe a gamma-match :-}

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Wed, 07 May 2014 13:27:29 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

This new, very well-insulated, foil-backed, house has one drawback...
the garage door opener range with the garage door closed is only about
20'

Any ideas on how I could extend that range?

...Jim Thompson

You need an engineer!


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

On Wed, 07 May 2014 16:30:35 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Wed, 07 May 2014 13:27:29 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

This new, very well-insulated, foil-backed, house has one drawback...
the garage door opener range with the garage door closed is only about
20'

Any ideas on how I could extend that range?

...Jim Thompson

You need an engineer!

Always have to go out of your way to be a turd, don't you... sad
specimen you are.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On 5/7/2014 5:40 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
On Wed, 07 May 2014 16:30:35 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Wed, 07 May 2014 13:27:29 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

This new, very well-insulated, foil-backed, house has one drawback...
the garage door opener range with the garage door closed is only about
20'

Any ideas on how I could extend that range?

...Jim Thompson

You need an engineer!

Always have to go out of your way to be a turd, don't you... sad
specimen you are.

...Jim Thompson

Pot, Kettle, Black, call ?

On Wed, 07 May 2014 16:40:39 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Wed, 07 May 2014 16:30:35 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Wed, 07 May 2014 13:27:29 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

This new, very well-insulated, foil-backed, house has one drawback...
the garage door opener range with the garage door closed is only about
20'

Any ideas on how I could extend that range?

...Jim Thompson

You need an engineer!

Always have to go out of your way to be a turd, don't you... sad
specimen you are.

...Jim Thompson

Geez, you have an antenna inside a metal box, and you need advice?


--

John Larkin Highland Technology Inc
www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com

Precision electronic instrumentation

"John Larkin" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 07 May 2014 16:40:39 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Wed, 07 May 2014 16:30:35 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Wed, 07 May 2014 13:27:29 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

This new, very well-insulated, foil-backed, house has one drawback...
the garage door opener range with the garage door closed is only about
20'

Any ideas on how I could extend that range?

...Jim Thompson

You need an engineer!

Always have to go out of your way to be a turd, don't you... sad
specimen you are.

...Jim Thompson

Geez, you have an antenna inside a metal box, and you need advice?


Heh heh heh.

On Wed, 07 May 2014 13:27:29 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

This new, very well-insulated, foil-backed, house has one drawback...
the garage door opener range with the garage door closed is only about
20'

Any ideas on how I could extend that range?

...Jim Thompson

The Sears brand have kits,
http://www.sears.com/search=garage%20door%20remote%20antenna%20extender %20kit?levels=Tools&autoRedirect=true

I see a pattern developing....

Cheers

On Wed, 07 May 2014 13:27:29 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

This new, very well-insulated, foil-backed, house has one drawback...
the garage door opener range with the garage door closed is only about
20'

I assume the garage door is insulated with foil backed foam or
fiberglass. Therefore, RF through the garage door is a difficult
path.

First, try a simple experiment. Open the garage door wide and test
the range of your unspecified model garage door opener radio. If you
get normal ranges (200ft or more), then the problem is the garage door
shielding. However, if the range is the same, the tuning on either
the transmitter or receiver is off frequency.

Punching a big hole in the aluminum door insulation might help, but
methinks adding some coax cable to the antenna, punch a hole somewhere
in the garage wall (not the roof), and bring the antenna outside, will
work best. I'm not sure what frequency your unspecified model garage
door opener operates (probably 315 or 390 MHz) but the coax cable
should be specified to have the minimum loss at the operating
frequency. Satellite grade CATV coax cable (RG-6/u) is both cheap and
low loss.

Garage Door Opener Antenna Extension
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smwjAOvVACY
(Ignore his comments on how RF travels better when it's cold and wet.
His receiver is drifting with temperature. Also, you do need to
ground the shield of the coax at the receiver ground).

Any ideas on how I could extend that range?
...Jim Thompson

A wired push button switch on a vertical pipe somewhere along the
driveway approach? If that's too primitive, a 2nd remote receiver
somewhere along the driveway.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Wed, 07 May 2014 19:26:23 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Wed, 07 May 2014 13:27:29 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

This new, very well-insulated, foil-backed, house has one drawback...
the garage door opener range with the garage door closed is only about
20'

I assume the garage door is insulated with foil backed foam or
fiberglass. Therefore, RF through the garage door is a difficult
path.

First, try a simple experiment. Open the garage door wide and test
the range of your unspecified model garage door opener radio. If you
get normal ranges (200ft or more), then the problem is the garage door
shielding. However, if the range is the same, the tuning on either
the transmitter or receiver is off frequency.

Punching a big hole in the aluminum door insulation might help, but
methinks adding some coax cable to the antenna, punch a hole somewhere
in the garage wall (not the roof), and bring the antenna outside, will
work best. I'm not sure what frequency your unspecified model garage
door opener operates (probably 315 or 390 MHz) but the coax cable
should be specified to have the minimum loss at the operating
frequency. Satellite grade CATV coax cable (RG-6/u) is both cheap and
low loss.

Garage Door Opener Antenna Extension
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smwjAOvVACY
(Ignore his comments on how RF travels better when it's cold and wet.
His receiver is drifting with temperature. Also, you do need to
ground the shield of the coax at the receiver ground).

Any ideas on how I could extend that range?
...Jim Thompson

A wired push button switch on a vertical pipe somewhere along the
driveway approach? If that's too primitive, a 2nd remote receiver
somewhere along the driveway.

My own 10m illegal transmitter and receiver and a relay... ought to
give me a full block's range :-}

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Wed, 07 May 2014 19:40:07 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

My own 10m illegal transmitter and receiver and a relay... ought to
give me a full block's range :-}
...Jim Thompson

Sigh. 10m as in 28 MHz? Were you planning on operating the garage
door from the adjacent state? Transistor, tube, or spark gap? 28 MHz
requires a fairly large 2.5 meter antenna on both ends, or something
somewhat shorter with a loading coil. Even so, the aluminum foil in
the garage door, is a fairly effective barrier to RF. Move the
receive antenna outside, and the foil will not be a problem. Also,
you might want to measure the receiver sensitivity and tx power output
to make sure your range prediction is not based on bad assumptions.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Wed, 07 May 2014 19:55:42 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Wed, 07 May 2014 19:40:07 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

My own 10m illegal transmitter and receiver and a relay... ought to
give me a full block's range :-}
...Jim Thompson

Sigh. 10m as in 28 MHz? Were you planning on operating the garage
door from the adjacent state? Transistor, tube, or spark gap? 28 MHz
requires a fairly large 2.5 meter antenna on both ends, or something
somewhat shorter with a loading coil. Even so, the aluminum foil in
the garage door, is a fairly effective barrier to RF. Move the
receive antenna outside, and the foil will not be a problem. Also,
you might want to measure the receiver sensitivity and tx power output
to make sure your range prediction is not based on bad assumptions.

I have some old 455kHz ceramic filters... maybe that's the way to do
it :-}

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Wed, 07 May 2014 21:45:22 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

I have some old 455kHz ceramic filters... maybe that's the way to do
it :-}

Ummm.... no. I suggest that you give up on building your own and
purchase something that has a chance of actually working:
www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=wireless+remote+switch
Look for 315 MHz and something with a momentary/timed/latch output
jumper for the relay(s). Install the receiver antenna or the entire
receiver outside your shielded garage for optimum range.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Wed, 07 May 2014 21:45:22 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

I have some old 455kHz ceramic filters... maybe that's the way to do
it :-}

Ummm.... no. I suggest that you give up on building your own and
purchase something that has a chance of actually working:
www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=wireless+remote+switch
Look for 315 MHz and something with a momentary/timed/latch output
jumper for the relay(s). Install the receiver antenna or the entire
receiver outside your shielded garage for optimum range.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 5/7/2014 9:40 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
On Wed, 07 May 2014 19:26:23 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Wed, 07 May 2014 13:27:29 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

This new, very well-insulated, foil-backed, house has one drawback...
the garage door opener range with the garage door closed is only about
20'

I assume the garage door is insulated with foil backed foam or
fiberglass. Therefore, RF through the garage door is a difficult
path.

First, try a simple experiment. Open the garage door wide and test
the range of your unspecified model garage door opener radio. If you
get normal ranges (200ft or more), then the problem is the garage door
shielding. However, if the range is the same, the tuning on either
the transmitter or receiver is off frequency.

Punching a big hole in the aluminum door insulation might help, but
methinks adding some coax cable to the antenna, punch a hole somewhere
in the garage wall (not the roof), and bring the antenna outside, will
work best. I'm not sure what frequency your unspecified model garage
door opener operates (probably 315 or 390 MHz) but the coax cable
should be specified to have the minimum loss at the operating
frequency. Satellite grade CATV coax cable (RG-6/u) is both cheap and
low loss.

Garage Door Opener Antenna Extension
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smwjAOvVACY
(Ignore his comments on how RF travels better when it's cold and wet.
His receiver is drifting with temperature. Also, you do need to
ground the shield of the coax at the receiver ground).

Any ideas on how I could extend that range?
...Jim Thompson

A wired push button switch on a vertical pipe somewhere along the
driveway approach? If that's too primitive, a 2nd remote receiver
somewhere along the driveway.

My own 10m illegal transmitter and receiver and a relay... ought to
give me a full block's range :-}

...Jim Thompson

If you do that, just call me, I'll open the door for you,
From Florida ;-)
Mikek

On 5/7/2014 9:40 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
On Wed, 07 May 2014 19:26:23 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Wed, 07 May 2014 13:27:29 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

This new, very well-insulated, foil-backed, house has one drawback...
the garage door opener range with the garage door closed is only about
20'

I assume the garage door is insulated with foil backed foam or
fiberglass. Therefore, RF through the garage door is a difficult
path.

First, try a simple experiment. Open the garage door wide and test
the range of your unspecified model garage door opener radio. If you
get normal ranges (200ft or more), then the problem is the garage door
shielding. However, if the range is the same, the tuning on either
the transmitter or receiver is off frequency.

Punching a big hole in the aluminum door insulation might help, but
methinks adding some coax cable to the antenna, punch a hole somewhere
in the garage wall (not the roof), and bring the antenna outside, will
work best. I'm not sure what frequency your unspecified model garage
door opener operates (probably 315 or 390 MHz) but the coax cable
should be specified to have the minimum loss at the operating
frequency. Satellite grade CATV coax cable (RG-6/u) is both cheap and
low loss.

Garage Door Opener Antenna Extension
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smwjAOvVACY
(Ignore his comments on how RF travels better when it's cold and wet.
His receiver is drifting with temperature. Also, you do need to
ground the shield of the coax at the receiver ground).

Any ideas on how I could extend that range?
...Jim Thompson

A wired push button switch on a vertical pipe somewhere along the
driveway approach? If that's too primitive, a 2nd remote receiver
somewhere along the driveway.

My own 10m illegal transmitter and receiver and a relay... ought to
give me a full block's range :-}

...Jim Thompson

If you do that, just call me, I'll open the door for you,
From Florida ;-)
Mikek

On Wed, 07 May 2014 19:26:23 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Wed, 07 May 2014 13:27:29 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

This new, very well-insulated, foil-backed, house has one drawback...
the garage door opener range with the garage door closed is only about
20'

I assume the garage door is insulated with foil backed foam or
fiberglass. Therefore, RF through the garage door is a difficult
path.

Door is a sheet-metal sandwich with the insulation between the two
metal panels. Walls are foil-backed exterior sheathing plus
foil-backed drywall inside.


First, try a simple experiment. Open the garage door wide and test
the range of your unspecified model garage door opener radio. If you
get normal ranges (200ft or more), then the problem is the garage door
shielding. However, if the range is the same, the tuning on either
the transmitter or receiver is off frequency.

Dramatic range improvement.

[snip]

How about this... Drill hole in door, fit water-tight thru-hole BNC
connector, attach rubber ducky antennas to each side. Would that be
enough of a "window"?

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On 2014-05-09, Jim Thompson wrote:

First, try a simple experiment. Open the garage door wide and test
the range of your unspecified model garage door opener radio. If you
get normal ranges (200ft or more), then the problem is the garage door
shielding. However, if the range is the same, the tuning on either
the transmitter or receiver is off frequency.

Dramatic range improvement.

that confirms it's a "antenna in a metal box" problem

How about this... Drill hole in door, fit water-tight thru-hole BNC
connector, attach rubber ducky antennas to each side. Would that be
enough of a "window"?

I'm thinking that be the eqivalent of about a 4" window in your door.


It'd work better if the indoor antenna was closer to the receiver.
I'd be considering putting the indoor antenna in the near field of
the receiver antenna. (but only after rejecting a direct connection to
the receiver circuit)


You've got inverse square law losses between you and the outdoor
antenna and again between the indooor antenna and the receiver.


Moving the indoor end of your passive repeater to where it does most
good has got to be good for a 30db reduction in loss.

--
umop apisdn

On 2014-05-07, Jim Thompson wrote:
This new, very well-insulated, foil-backed, house has one drawback...
the garage door opener range with the garage door closed is only about
20'

Any ideas on how I could extend that range?

Buy a second receiver and wire it into the button curcuit and place it
in a non-sheielded location. (bare receivers are available for use on
electric gates etc)

Put a better antenna on your remote, *

Use some UHF coax to move the reveiver antenna to a better location. *

(*) probably void the warranty

--
umop apisdn


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

In article , To-Email-Use-
says...
This new, very well-insulated, foil-backed, house has one drawback...
the garage door opener range with the garage door closed is only about
20'

Any ideas on how I could extend that range?

...Jim Thompson

An external antenna would be the easiest thing.

On 5/8/2014 1:25 PM, WangoTango wrote:
In article , To-Email-Use-
says...
This new, very well-insulated, foil-backed, house has one drawback...
the garage door opener range with the garage door closed is only about
20'

Any ideas on how I could extend that range?

...Jim Thompson

An external antenna would be the easiest thing.


I'm with you, antenna is the solution.
I'd try cutting a director and reflector to proper lengths
and just hung then in place for a test.
Two pieces of wire could solve his problem.
Mikek

amdx wrote:

On 5/8/2014 1:25 PM, WangoTango wrote:
In article , To-Email-Use-
says...
This new, very well-insulated, foil-backed, house has one drawback...
the garage door opener range with the garage door closed is only about
20'

Any ideas on how I could extend that range?

...Jim Thompson

An external antenna would be the easiest thing.


I'm with you, antenna is the solution.
I'd try cutting a director and reflector to proper lengths
and just hung then in place for a test.
Two pieces of wire could solve his problem.


That will detune the front end since it wasn't designed for a
complex, 50 ohm antenna. Some of the single board controllers have an
etched trace for the antenna. Also, any physical modification voids the
FCC acceptance. Some of these are super regen, and a better antenna will
radiate crap that will cause interference.

--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

In article ,
says...

amdx wrote:

On 5/8/2014 1:25 PM, WangoTango wrote:
In article , To-Email-Use-
says...
This new, very well-insulated, foil-backed, house has one drawback...
the garage door opener range with the garage door closed is only about
20'

Any ideas on how I could extend that range?

...Jim Thompson

An external antenna would be the easiest thing.


I'm with you, antenna is the solution.
I'd try cutting a director and reflector to proper lengths
and just hung then in place for a test.
Two pieces of wire could solve his problem.


That will detune the front end since it wasn't designed for a
complex, 50 ohm antenna. Some of the single board controllers have an
etched trace for the antenna. Also, any physical modification voids the
FCC acceptance. Some of these are super regen, and a better antenna will
radiate crap that will cause interference.


That's a lot of speculation and maybes.
How about he look at what he has and goes from there.
I'll bet it is one of the single chip code hopping solutions from any
one of a bunch of manufacturers and I doubt that it will be a super-
regen anything.
And, he didn't say that he cared if the FCC might not like the mod.

WangoTango wrote:

In article ,
says...

amdx wrote:

On 5/8/2014 1:25 PM, WangoTango wrote:
In article , To-Email-Use-
says...
This new, very well-insulated, foil-backed, house has one drawback...
the garage door opener range with the garage door closed is only about
20'

Any ideas on how I could extend that range?

...Jim Thompson

An external antenna would be the easiest thing.


I'm with you, antenna is the solution.
I'd try cutting a director and reflector to proper lengths
and just hung then in place for a test.
Two pieces of wire could solve his problem.


That will detune the front end since it wasn't designed for a
complex, 50 ohm antenna. Some of the single board controllers have an
etched trace for the antenna. Also, any physical modification voids the
FCC acceptance. Some of these are super regen, and a better antenna will
radiate crap that will cause interference.


That's a lot of speculation and maybes.
How about he look at what he has and goes from there.
I'll bet it is one of the single chip code hopping solutions from any
one of a bunch of manufacturers and I doubt that it will be a super-
regen anything.
And, he didn't say that he cared if the FCC might not like the mod.


How many have you worked on?


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

amdx wrote:

On 5/8/2014 1:25 PM, WangoTango wrote:
In article , To-Email-Use-
says...
This new, very well-insulated, foil-backed, house has one drawback...
the garage door opener range with the garage door closed is only about
20'

Any ideas on how I could extend that range?

...Jim Thompson

An external antenna would be the easiest thing.


I'm with you, antenna is the solution.
I'd try cutting a director and reflector to proper lengths
and just hung then in place for a test.
Two pieces of wire could solve his problem.


That will detune the front end since it wasn't designed for a
complex, 50 ohm antenna. Some of the single board controllers have an
etched trace for the antenna. Also, any physical modification voids the
FCC acceptance. Some of these are super regen, and a better antenna will
radiate crap that will cause interference.

--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

On 5/8/2014 1:25 PM, WangoTango wrote:
In article , To-Email-Use-
says...
This new, very well-insulated, foil-backed, house has one drawback...
the garage door opener range with the garage door closed is only about
20'

Any ideas on how I could extend that range?

...Jim Thompson

An external antenna would be the easiest thing.


I'm with you, antenna is the solution.
I'd try cutting a director and reflector to proper lengths
and just hung then in place for a test.
Two pieces of wire could solve his problem.
Mikek

On Wed, 07 May 2014 13:27:29 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

This new, very well-insulated, foil-backed, house has one drawback...
the garage door opener range with the garage door closed is only about
20'

Any ideas on how I could extend that range?

...Jim Thompson
---
What I'd do would be to drill a hole through the garage wall next to
the door but up high, then connect a length of 50 ohm coax to a
weatherproof 900MHz rubber duckie antenna with a 90 degree mounting
flange/bracket and pass the coax through the hole from the outside
of the garage to the inside.

Next, I'd mount the rubber duckie to the outside wall with the whip
oriented vertically, and weatherize the installation.

Finally, I'd mount another rubber duckie on the inside wall, with
the whip oriented vertically, and connect the coax.

Voila! passive repeater, - probably with some gain - nice clean
install, and your warranty stays intact since you haven't even
touched the holy RX.

"John Fields" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 07 May 2014 13:27:29 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

This new, very well-insulated, foil-backed, house has one drawback...
the garage door opener range with the garage door closed is only about
20'

Any ideas on how I could extend that range?

...Jim Thompson
---
What I'd do would be to drill a hole through the garage wall next to
the door but up high, then connect a length of 50 ohm coax to a
weatherproof 900MHz rubber duckie antenna with a 90 degree mounting
flange/bracket and pass the coax through the hole from the outside
of the garage to the inside.

Next, I'd mount the rubber duckie to the outside wall with the whip
oriented vertically, and weatherize the installation.

Finally, I'd mount another rubber duckie on the inside wall, with
the whip oriented vertically, and connect the coax.

Voila! passive repeater, - probably with some gain - nice clean
install, and your warranty stays intact since you haven't even
touched the holy RX.


You really should do the math on that idea to find out why it won't work.
Also, they do not use 900 MHz for this model.

On 5/8/2014 7:08 PM, John Fields wrote:
On Wed, 07 May 2014 13:27:29 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

This new, very well-insulated, foil-backed, house has one drawback...
the garage door opener range with the garage door closed is only about
20'

Any ideas on how I could extend that range?

...Jim Thompson
---
What I'd do would be to drill a hole through the garage wall next to
the door but up high, then connect a length of 50 ohm coax to a
weatherproof 900MHz rubber duckie antenna with a 90 degree mounting
flange/bracket and pass the coax through the hole from the outside
of the garage to the inside.

Next, I'd mount the rubber duckie to the outside wall with the whip
oriented vertically, and weatherize the installation.

Finally, I'd mount another rubber duckie on the inside wall, with
the whip oriented vertically, and connect the coax.

Voila! passive repeater, - probably with some gain - nice clean
install, and your warranty stays intact since you haven't even
touched the holy RX.


Everyone seems very concerned about the warranty, does anyone
leave a unit modified and then call for warranty service?

Let me answer that for you.

Of course not, you put it back to original and then ask for warranty
service.

Unless your mod caused the problem.
Mikek

On Thu, 08 May 2014 19:08:40 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

Voila! passive repeater, - probably with some gain - nice clean
install, and your warranty stays intact since you haven't even
touched the holy RX.

Passive repeaters, with omni antennas don't work. The problems is
that the small "illumination area" (my term) of the two antennas
results in a huge overall loss. Let's play with the numbers. I'll
use 0dB gain for all the antennas and for the inside to outside
passive repeater losses to make the math easier.

Garage door opener receiver end.
Sensitivity 1 uv/12dB SINAD = -107 dBm
Antenna gain on receiver = 0 dB
Distance to passive repeater antenna
is 10 meter. Path loss at 433 Mhz = -45 dBm
http://www.qsl.net/pa2ohh/jsffield.htm
Inside Antenna gain passive repeater = 0 dB
Loss between inside and outside
antennas = 0 dB
Outside antenna gain passive repeater = 0 dB
Distance from outside passive repeater
antenna to remote control is 10 meters.
Path loss at 433 Mhz = -45 dB
Antenna gain on remote control = 0 dB
Transmit power (about 100 microwatts) = -10 dBm
Remote control transmitter end.

So... if we start out with -10 dBm of signal and have -90 dB of total
path loss through the passive repeater, the signal level arriving at
the receiver will be -100 dbm, which 3 dB above the receiver
sensitivity. For PWM modulation and a crude demodulator, my guess(tm)
is that at least 6 dB SNR is required to demodulate the data. That
puts the passive repeater scheme about 3 dB short of working.

However, had there been no passive repeater over the same 20 meter
distance, the path loss would have been -51 dB, resulting in a -61 dBm
signal level at the receiver, which is 46 dB above the receiver
sensitivity and 40 dB above my guess(tm) as to the operating
threshold. That should work just fine. More simply, the difference
in overall path loss between this 2 hop passive repeater and a direct
shot without the passive repeater is:
45 + 45 - 51 = 39 dB

There are a few situations where passive repeater do work and are
useful, but extending the range of a garage door opener is not one of
them. However, if you want to make it work, you'll need at least a
directional antenna at the receiver, pointed to inside passive
repeater antenna, which should also be directional. If the approach
is along a fixed path, a direction antenna for the outside antenna
will also help. The total gain of these three antennas should equal
the 39 dB path loss difference in order to get the same performance as
a direct shot without the passive repeater.

I've build passive repeaters like this for situations where any signal
is better than none at all. The catch is that if there's any signal
leakage from a direct path that bypasses the passive repeater, there
will be cancellation, nulls, dead spots, and irate clients.




--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 08 May 2014 19:08:40 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

Voila! passive repeater, - probably with some gain - nice clean
install, and your warranty stays intact since you haven't even
touched the holy RX.

Passive repeaters, with omni antennas don't work. The problems is
that the small "illumination area" (my term) of the two antennas
results in a huge overall loss. Let's play with the numbers. I'll
use 0dB gain for all the antennas and for the inside to outside
passive repeater losses to make the math easier.

Garage door opener receiver end.
Sensitivity 1 uv/12dB SINAD = -107 dBm
Antenna gain on receiver = 0 dB
Distance to passive repeater antenna
is 10 meter. Path loss at 433 Mhz = -45 dBm
http://www.qsl.net/pa2ohh/jsffield.htm
Inside Antenna gain passive repeater = 0 dB
Loss between inside and outside
antennas = 0 dB
Outside antenna gain passive repeater = 0 dB
Distance from outside passive repeater
antenna to remote control is 10 meters.
Path loss at 433 Mhz = -45 dB
Antenna gain on remote control = 0 dB
Transmit power (about 100 microwatts) = -10 dBm
Remote control transmitter end.

So... if we start out with -10 dBm of signal and have -90 dB of total
path loss through the passive repeater, the signal level arriving at
the receiver will be -100 dbm, which 3 dB above the receiver
sensitivity. For PWM modulation and a crude demodulator, my guess(tm)
is that at least 6 dB SNR is required to demodulate the data. That
puts the passive repeater scheme about 3 dB short of working.

However, had there been no passive repeater over the same 20 meter
distance, the path loss would have been -51 dB, resulting in a -61 dBm
signal level at the receiver, which is 46 dB above the receiver
sensitivity and 40 dB above my guess(tm) as to the operating
threshold. That should work just fine. More simply, the difference
in overall path loss between this 2 hop passive repeater and a direct
shot without the passive repeater is:
45 + 45 - 51 = 39 dB

There are a few situations where passive repeater do work and are
useful, but extending the range of a garage door opener is not one of
them. However, if you want to make it work, you'll need at least a
directional antenna at the receiver, pointed to inside passive
repeater antenna, which should also be directional. If the approach
is along a fixed path, a direction antenna for the outside antenna
will also help. The total gain of these three antennas should equal
the 39 dB path loss difference in order to get the same performance as
a direct shot without the passive repeater.

I've build passive repeaters like this for situations where any signal
is better than none at all. The catch is that if there's any signal
leakage from a direct path that bypasses the passive repeater, there
will be cancellation, nulls, dead spots, and irate clients.





At 200 m (down the street, why he is doing this) the FSPL is 71 dB. The Tx
antenna will have lots of loss buried in the car body. The Genie opener just
has a short (15 inches) length of wire hanging down for its antenna. No real
400 MHz ground plane so I doubt it will be 0 dB.

On Thu, 8 May 2014 21:31:45 -0400, "Tom Miller"
wrote:

At 200 m (down the street, why he is doing this) the FSPL is 71 dB. The Tx
antenna will have lots of loss buried in the car body. The Genie opener just
has a short (15 inches) length of wire hanging down for its antenna. No real
400 MHz ground plane so I doubt it will be 0 dB.

Agreed. 0 dB losses and 0 dBm gains were mostly so I didn't have to
reach across the desk for my calculator. I made no effort to be
accurate or even realistic. I simply wanted to demonstrate the effect
of putting a passive repeater in the middle of the RF path. I can
change the numbers to more closely reflect reality, but the added
losses due to the passive repeater will not change things very much.

A 200 meter outside path will make a passive repeater even less
desirable. If I leave the inside path at 10 meters, which I think is
realistic for across a large garage, and use 200 meters for the
distance between the car and the garage the path loss will be:

Without passive repeater. 210 meter path at 433 MHz:
http://www.qsl.net/pa2ohh/jsffield.htm
the loss is 72 dB.

With 200 meters plus the passive repeater at 10 meters, the loss is:
71.2 dB + 45.2 = 116 dB
With this arrangement, the RF signal level at the receiver will be
-126 dBm, which is well below the receiver operating level.

That's a difference of 44 between using a passive repeater and a
direct shot. Throwing in realistic antenna gains will make things
even worse.


Quiz: Starting with a 1/4 wave whip antenna over a large ground, how
short can this antenna be cut before the gain drops substantially?
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/antennas/Monopole/index.html
The numbers in the filenames are the antenna lengths in wavelengths.
For example, monopole_0_125 is 0.125 wavelengths or 1/8th wavelength.
I only ran 3 applicable lengths, but the gain figures should offer a
clue that as long as the feed impedances are reasonably well matched,
you can probably cut an antenna down to below 1/20th wavelength, and
still have a fair amount of gain:
wavelengths gain(dbm)
0.250 5.19
0.125 4.85
0.050 4.75
The VSWR is atrocious, but the gain is still mostly there.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 09/05/2014 04:24, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 8 May 2014 21:31:45 -0400, "Tom Miller"
wrote:

At 200 m (down the street, why he is doing this) the FSPL is 71 dB. The Tx
antenna will have lots of loss buried in the car body. The Genie opener just
has a short (15 inches) length of wire hanging down for its antenna. No real
400 MHz ground plane so I doubt it will be 0 dB.

Agreed. 0 dB losses and 0 dBm gains were mostly so I didn't have to
reach across the desk for my calculator. I made no effort to be
accurate or even realistic. I simply wanted to demonstrate the effect
of putting a passive repeater in the middle of the RF path. I can
change the numbers to more closely reflect reality, but the added
losses due to the passive repeater will not change things very much.

A 200 meter outside path will make a passive repeater even less
desirable. If I leave the inside path at 10 meters, which I think is
realistic for across a large garage, and use 200 meters for the
distance between the car and the garage the path loss will be:

Without passive repeater. 210 meter path at 433 MHz:
http://www.qsl.net/pa2ohh/jsffield.htm
the loss is 72 dB.

With 200 meters plus the passive repeater at 10 meters, the loss is:
71.2 dB + 45.2 = 116 dB
With this arrangement, the RF signal level at the receiver will be
-126 dBm, which is well below the receiver operating level.

That's a difference of 44 between using a passive repeater and a
direct shot. Throwing in realistic antenna gains will make things
even worse.


Quiz: Starting with a 1/4 wave whip antenna over a large ground, how
short can this antenna be cut before the gain drops substantially?
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/antennas/Monopole/index.html
The numbers in the filenames are the antenna lengths in wavelengths.
For example, monopole_0_125 is 0.125 wavelengths or 1/8th wavelength.
I only ran 3 applicable lengths, but the gain figures should offer a
clue that as long as the feed impedances are reasonably well matched,
you can probably cut an antenna down to below 1/20th wavelength, and
still have a fair amount of gain:
wavelengths gain(dbm)
0.250 5.19
0.125 4.85
0.050 4.75
The VSWR is atrocious, but the gain is still mostly there.

What is the software model you've used here?

--
Mike Perkins
Video Solutions Ltd
www.videosolutions.ltd.uk

On Thu, 08 May 2014 17:51:16 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Thu, 08 May 2014 19:08:40 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

Voila! passive repeater, - probably with some gain - nice clean
install, and your warranty stays intact since you haven't even
touched the holy RX.

Passive repeaters, with omni antennas don't work. The problems is
that the small "illumination area" (my term) of the two antennas
results in a huge overall loss. Let's play with the numbers. I'll
use 0dB gain for all the antennas and for the inside to outside
passive repeater losses to make the math easier.

Garage door opener receiver end.
Sensitivity 1 uv/12dB SINAD = -107 dBm
Antenna gain on receiver = 0 dB
Distance to passive repeater antenna
is 10 meter. Path loss at 433 Mhz = -45 dBm
http://www.qsl.net/pa2ohh/jsffield.htm
Inside Antenna gain passive repeater = 0 dB
Loss between inside and outside
antennas = 0 dB
Outside antenna gain passive repeater = 0 dB
Distance from outside passive repeater
antenna to remote control is 10 meters.
Path loss at 433 Mhz = -45 dB
Antenna gain on remote control = 0 dB
Transmit power (about 100 microwatts) = -10 dBm
Remote control transmitter end.

So... if we start out with -10 dBm of signal and have -90 dB of total
path loss through the passive repeater, the signal level arriving at
the receiver will be -100 dbm, which 3 dB above the receiver
sensitivity. For PWM modulation and a crude demodulator, my guess(tm)
is that at least 6 dB SNR is required to demodulate the data. That
puts the passive repeater scheme about 3 dB short of working.

---
A cursory look through Google finds:

http://www.terra-wave.com/shop/89096...l27hveoggt6rf4

so the 5dB gain for the pair of antennas - all the rest of your
numbers staying the same - puts the scheme about 2dB long on
working.

Not an awful lot, but it's over the edge and for less than $20 for
the antennas, in my book it's probably worth trying.
---

However, had there been no passive repeater over the same 20 meter
distance, the path loss would have been -51 dB, resulting in a -61 dBm
signal level at the receiver, which is 46 dB above the receiver
sensitivity and 40 dB above my guess(tm) as to the operating
threshold. That should work just fine. More simply, the difference
in overall path loss between this 2 hop passive repeater and a direct
shot without the passive repeater is:
45 + 45 - 51 = 39 dB

---
OK, but that garage door and all the aluminum foil around the house
is a big attenuator killing what would be a direct shot.
---

There are a few situations where passive repeater do work and are
useful, but extending the range of a garage door opener is not one of
them. However, if you want to make it work, you'll need at least a
directional antenna at the receiver, pointed to inside passive
repeater antenna, which should also be directional. If the approach
is along a fixed path, a direction antenna for the outside antenna
will also help. The total gain of these three antennas should equal
the 39 dB path loss difference in order to get the same performance as
a direct shot without the passive repeater.

I've build passive repeaters like this for situations where any signal
is better than none at all.

---
Sounds just like Jim's situation.
---

The catch is that if there's any signal
leakage from a direct path that bypasses the passive repeater, there
will be cancellation,

---
And enhancement
---

nulls

---
and peaks
---

dead spots

---
and hot spots
---

and irate clients.

---
I don't think that'll be a problem in this instance and, anyway,
it's better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at
all... :-)

On Thu, 08 May 2014 20:54:18 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

A cursory look through Google finds:
http://www.terra-wave.com/shop/89096...l27hveoggt6rf4

I do wish you would use a 433 MHz or 315 Mhz rubber ducky antenna.
I'll make it easy. Put a pizza platter on Jim's roof and ceiling. Add
a 5/8 wave antenna with a suitable matching transformer, and I'll call
it about 5 dBi gain. At 10 meters from the garage, that will probably
work. At 200 meters, no way.

so the 5dB gain for the pair of antennas - all the rest of your
numbers staying the same - puts the scheme about 2dB long on
working.

Sure. Like I said. Add some gain at any of the antennas to make up
for the 39 dB difference in path loss between the direct versus the
passive repeater, and it will work just fine. However 2.5dB gain per
antenna is not going to make up for 39 dB of loss. Granted, you can
run the signal levels down to the minimum detectable signal level, and
possibly make it work. However, don't use my figures for doing that.
I picked 0dB losses and 0dB gain antennas simply to illustrate the
large difference in path loss between the two schemes. If you want a
more accurate calculation, I can grind out the numbers. I'll need
some details from Jim Thomson, such as the height of the garage, the
height of the garage door opener, and the size of the garage.

Not an awful lot, but it's over the edge and for less than $20 for
the antennas, in my book it's probably worth trying.

I think differently. Using my numbers, the only way to compensate for
the difference in losses is with antenna gain. Well, maybe increase
the transmit power or put an RF amp in front of the receiver.

OK, but that garage door and all the aluminum foil around the house
is a big attenuator killing what would be a direct shot.

True. However, that doesn't make much difference if the antenna is
outside the shielded garage. I consider that a necessity, whether
using a passive repeater or a direct shot.

Sounds just like Jim's situation.

No, it's not. The situations that work is where there is absolutely
no signal via the direct path. The basement of an emergency center is
one. Another is 4 floors down in an underground garage. Jim's
shielded garage may be very lossy, but is still leaky enough that
cancellation (nulls) between the incident and passive repeated signals
will be a problem.

The catch is that if there's any signal
leakage from a direct path that bypasses the passive repeater, there
will be cancellation,

And enhancement

Only if you're lucky. The problems with such calculations as mine is
that they define the best possible conditions, where everything
behaves exactly as predicted. Reality tends to suggest that this is
most often not the case. Losses are never better than predicted.
Power output and rx sensitivity are never up to spec. Path losses
always have some extra obstructions that raise the losses. And, I
haven't even thrown in Fresnel zone diffraction. There are no
optimists in the RF business and antenna problems tend to be very
strange:
http://people.csail.mit.edu/bkph/images/theres_your_reception_problem.jpg

I don't think that'll be a problem in this instance and, anyway,
it's better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at
all... :-)

Believe me, I have loved passive repeaters since I discovered one
hiking in the hills above Big Bear Lake in southern Calif. When we
finally reached the top of the mountain, there was a huge billboard on
top. No advertising or embellishments. Just a billboard. I
discovered later that it was a passive reflector for the microwave
links used by AT&T to cross the country. I thought it was cool.
Somewhat later, I blundered into periscope antennas, where a 45 degree
reflector in the shape of an ellipse was perched on top of a tower,
with a dish antenna pointing straight up at the reflector. Again I
thought it was cool.

Then, I discovered that ecology and fiber optics had conspired to
remove the billboards from the mountain tops. The FCC also took a dim
view of the signal splatter produced by periscope antennas and
effectively banned them. So much for my first love in antennas.

At various times in my checkered career, I've toyed with various forms
of passive repeaters, and found little in the way of success. The
math shows why, but I was more than willing to ignore the calculations
in the hope that they might be wrong. When Wi-Fi took hold, I
immediately resurrected the idea in a 200ft fir tree, pointing one
dish at the WISP (wireless ISP) and the other down to my house. As
long as I didn't mind climbing the tree to realign the antenna every
few weeks, it worked fairly well.

I never make the same mistake twice. 5 or 10 times is more my style.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558