I'm honing my Spice modeling skills and need some suggestions of
devices whose manufacturer-provided Spice model doesn't match reality
very well, or has serious issues.

I'll try my hand at modeling the device and post my results on these
newsgroups and on the LTspice list. It would be helpful if, when you
make a suggestion, you state where and how it fails to match up with
claimed data sheet performance.

[No real nasty systems-on-a-chip... I want to save those for paying
customers... and, for now, keep it limited to Analog parts :-]

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On 8/7/2012 3:27 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
I'm honing my Spice modeling skills and need some suggestions of
devices whose manufacturer-provided Spice model doesn't match reality
very well, or has serious issues.

I'll try my hand at modeling the device and post my results on these
newsgroups and on the LTspice list. It would be helpful if, when you
make a suggestion, you state where and how it fails to match up with
claimed data sheet performance.

[No real nasty systems-on-a-chip... I want to save those for paying
customers... and, for now, keep it limited to Analog parts :-]

...Jim Thompson


4046? (Does a Spice model even exist?)

On Tue, 07 Aug 2012 15:42:52 -0400, bitrex
wrote:

On 8/7/2012 3:27 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
I'm honing my Spice modeling skills and need some suggestions of
devices whose manufacturer-provided Spice model doesn't match reality
very well, or has serious issues.

I'll try my hand at modeling the device and post my results on these
newsgroups and on the LTspice list. It would be helpful if, when you
make a suggestion, you state where and how it fails to match up with
claimed data sheet performance.

[No real nasty systems-on-a-chip... I want to save those for paying
customers... and, for now, keep it limited to Analog parts :-]

...Jim Thompson


4046? (Does a Spice model even exist?)

You mean the PLL/VCO? I thought someone had done a model for that,
but I'm game. It's mostly digital but I'll at least take a peek.
Those things are easy in PSpice, due to its digital primitives that
are lacking in other Spice's. But I can make Analog logic ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

Jim Thompson wrote:

I'm honing my Spice modeling skills and need some suggestions of
devices whose manufacturer-provided Spice model doesn't match reality
very well, or has serious issues.

I'll try my hand at modeling the device and post my results on these
newsgroups and on the LTspice list. It would be helpful if, when you
make a suggestion, you state where and how it fails to match up with
claimed data sheet performance.

[No real nasty systems-on-a-chip... I want to save those for paying
customers... and, for now, keep it limited to Analog parts :-]

...Jim Thompson

How about the AD608 mixer IF chip? AFAIK none of those have decent
Spice models. The SA614 sure doesn't. (That's one of my faves--I use
it all over the place.)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
845-480-2058

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

TL431 (and TLV-) that exhibit actual compensation behavior.

Tim

--
Deep Friar: a very philosophical monk.
Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

"Jim Thompson" wrote in
message ...
I'm honing my Spice modeling skills and need some suggestions of
devices whose manufacturer-provided Spice model doesn't match reality
very well, or has serious issues.

I'll try my hand at modeling the device and post my results on these
newsgroups and on the LTspice list. It would be helpful if, when you
make a suggestion, you state where and how it fails to match up with
claimed data sheet performance.

[No real nasty systems-on-a-chip... I want to save those for paying
customers... and, for now, keep it limited to Analog parts :-]

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Tue, 07 Aug 2012 18:24:17 -0400, Phil Hobbs
wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:

I'm honing my Spice modeling skills and need some suggestions of
devices whose manufacturer-provided Spice model doesn't match reality
very well, or has serious issues.

I'll try my hand at modeling the device and post my results on these
newsgroups and on the LTspice list. It would be helpful if, when you
make a suggestion, you state where and how it fails to match up with
claimed data sheet performance.

[No real nasty systems-on-a-chip... I want to save those for paying
customers... and, for now, keep it limited to Analog parts :-]

...Jim Thompson

How about the AD608 mixer IF chip? AFAIK none of those have decent
Spice models. The SA614 sure doesn't. (That's one of my faves--I use
it all over the place.)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

The AD8014 model is really, really bad.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology Inc
www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com

Precision electronic instrumentation
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators
Custom timing and laser controllers
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links
VME analog, thermocouple, LVDT, synchro, tachometer
Multichannel arbitrary waveform generators

On Wed, 08 Aug 2012 05:27:45 +1000, Jim Thompson
wrote:

I'm honing my Spice modeling skills and need some suggestions of
devices whose manufacturer-provided Spice model doesn't match reality
very well, or has serious issues.

I'll try my hand at modeling the device and post my results on these
newsgroups and on the LTspice list. It would be helpful if, when you
make a suggestion, you state where and how it fails to match up with
claimed data sheet performance.

[No real nasty systems-on-a-chip... I want to save those for paying
customers... and, for now, keep it limited to Analog parts :-]

...Jim Thompson

Some basic 741's really suck - they can deliver amps with no power supply
draw (I didn't bother to check the rest)


--
Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

Jim Thompson
wrote:

I'm honing my Spice modeling skills and need some suggestions of
devices whose manufacturer-provided Spice model doesn't match reality
very well, or has serious issues.

I'll try my hand at modeling the device and post my results on these
newsgroups and on the LTspice list. It would be helpful if, when you
make a suggestion, you state where and how it fails to match up with
claimed data sheet performance.

[No real nasty systems-on-a-chip... I want to save those for paying
customers... and, for now, keep it limited to Analog parts :-]

Transistors with avalanche characteristics.

--
Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply
indicates you are not using the right tools...
nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
--------------------------------------------------------------

On Wed, 08 Aug 2012 10:10:46 -0700, Fred Abse
wrote:

On Wed, 08 Aug 2012 21:16:50 +1000, David Eather wrote:

On Wed, 08 Aug 2012 05:27:45 +1000, Jim Thompson
wrote:

I'm honing my Spice modeling skills and need some suggestions of devices
whose manufacturer-provided Spice model doesn't match reality very well,
or has serious issues.

I'll try my hand at modeling the device and post my results on these
newsgroups and on the LTspice list. It would be helpful if, when you
make a suggestion, you state where and how it fails to match up with
claimed data sheet performance.

[No real nasty systems-on-a-chip... I want to save those for paying
customers... and, for now, keep it limited to Analog parts :-]

...Jim Thompson

Some basic 741's really suck - they can deliver amps with no power supply
draw (I didn't bother to check the rest)

741s suck, period.

Yup. You have to wonder why people use such out-of-date technology.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

Fred Abse wrote:
On Wed, 08 Aug 2012 21:16:50 +1000, David Eather wrote:


On Wed, 08 Aug 2012 05:27:45 +1000, Jim Thompson
wrote:


I'm honing my Spice modeling skills and need some suggestions of devices
whose manufacturer-provided Spice model doesn't match reality very well,
or has serious issues.

I'll try my hand at modeling the device and post my results on these
newsgroups and on the LTspice list. It would be helpful if, when you
make a suggestion, you state where and how it fails to match up with
claimed data sheet performance.

[No real nasty systems-on-a-chip... I want to save those for paying
customers... and, for now, keep it limited to Analog parts :-]

...Jim Thompson

Some basic 741's really suck - they can deliver amps with no power supply
draw (I didn't bother to check the rest)


741s suck, period.

I am glad you put the comma there, but, I myself do find general purpose
use of those, cheap, easy to use because I have lots of them. No lost
when something goes "Hmm"

If I were to be doing something that required the extra features of
other higher grade Op-amps, I then go shopping for better ones to fit my
use with in the spec's I need.

We still use lots of OP400 type op-amps because we have lots of them
hanging around. They seem to work well in area's where we think we need
to use them. Then we have the LM324,TL08x types which also have their place.

I work in an industrial environment where we are still working with
5,12, 24, 120, 240 and 480V stuff...

etc..
etc..

Jamie

On Tue, 07 Aug 2012 15:42:52 -0400, bitrex
wrote:

On 8/7/2012 3:27 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
I'm honing my Spice modeling skills and need some suggestions of
devices whose manufacturer-provided Spice model doesn't match reality
very well, or has serious issues.

I'll try my hand at modeling the device and post my results on these
newsgroups and on the LTspice list. It would be helpful if, when you
make a suggestion, you state where and how it fails to match up with
claimed data sheet performance.

[No real nasty systems-on-a-chip... I want to save those for paying
customers... and, for now, keep it limited to Analog parts :-]

...Jim Thompson


4046? (Does a Spice model even exist?)

Not having a 4046 at hand, and the data sheet is sorely lacking, could
someone measure the voltages at pins 11 and 12, versus VCC?

Thanks!

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

Jim Thompson wrote:

Fred Abse wrote:

741s suck, period.

Yup. You have to wonder why people use such out-of-date technology.


What else would out of date 'engineers' use? ;-)

On Wed, 08 Aug 2012 19:12:18 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Jim Thompson wrote:

Fred Abse wrote:

741s suck, period.

Yup. You have to wonder why people use such out-of-date technology.


What else would out of date 'engineers' use? ;-)

I last used 741 _die_ in LDO's ~1970... but only certain
manufacturers. They weren't all schematically the same, some included
VCC in the common-mode range and some did not.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:

Fred Abse wrote:

741s suck, period.

Yup. You have to wonder why people use such out-of-date technology.

What else would out of date 'engineers' use? ;-)

Well, LM348s are essentially quad 741s. They're a lot better than 324s,
but still cheap cheap cheap.

Remember, an engineer is somebody who can do well for $1 what any idiot
can do after a fashion for $10.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
845-480-2058

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

On Wed, 08 Aug 2012 15:58:06 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Tue, 07 Aug 2012 15:42:52 -0400, bitrex
wrote:

On 8/7/2012 3:27 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
I'm honing my Spice modeling skills and need some suggestions of
devices whose manufacturer-provided Spice model doesn't match reality
very well, or has serious issues.

I'll try my hand at modeling the device and post my results on these
newsgroups and on the LTspice list. It would be helpful if, when you
make a suggestion, you state where and how it fails to match up with
claimed data sheet performance.

[No real nasty systems-on-a-chip... I want to save those for paying
customers... and, for now, keep it limited to Analog parts :-]

...Jim Thompson


4046? (Does a Spice model even exist?)

Not having a 4046 at hand, and the data sheet is sorely lacking, could
someone measure the voltages at pins 11 and 12, versus VCC?

Thanks!

...Jim Thompson
---
I've got some 4046's in stock, and I'll give you one so you can do the
legwork yourself and not have to rely on anyone else's possibly faulty
data messing up your results.








--
JF

On Wed, 08 Aug 2012 19:11:03 -0500, John Fields
wrote:

On Wed, 08 Aug 2012 15:58:06 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Tue, 07 Aug 2012 15:42:52 -0400, bitrex
wrote:

On 8/7/2012 3:27 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
I'm honing my Spice modeling skills and need some suggestions of
devices whose manufacturer-provided Spice model doesn't match reality
very well, or has serious issues.

I'll try my hand at modeling the device and post my results on these
newsgroups and on the LTspice list. It would be helpful if, when you
make a suggestion, you state where and how it fails to match up with
claimed data sheet performance.

[No real nasty systems-on-a-chip... I want to save those for paying
customers... and, for now, keep it limited to Analog parts :-]

...Jim Thompson


4046? (Does a Spice model even exist?)

Not having a 4046 at hand, and the data sheet is sorely lacking, could
someone measure the voltages at pins 11 and 12, versus VCC?

Thanks!

...Jim Thompson
---
I've got some 4046's in stock, and I'll give you one so you can do the
legwork yourself and not have to rely on anyone else's possibly faulty
data messing up your results.



Thanks! That will allow me to also observe its droop versus set
current.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

Phil Hobbs wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:

Fred Abse wrote:

741s suck, period.

Yup. You have to wonder why people use such out-of-date technology.

What else would out of date 'engineers' use? ;-)

Well, LM348s are essentially quad 741s. They're a lot better than 324s,
but still cheap cheap cheap.

Remember, an engineer is somebody who can do well for $1 what any idiot
can do after a fashion for $10.


There are a lot better amps in the same price range, so why not use
them? Yes, there are applications where DC offset & drift don't matter,
but none that I've worked on in the last 20 years.

Jim Thompson wrote:

On Wed, 08 Aug 2012 19:12:18 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Jim Thompson wrote:

Fred Abse wrote:

741s suck, period.

Yup. You have to wonder why people use such out-of-date technology.


What else would out of date 'engineers' use? ;-)

I last used 741 _die_ in LDO's ~1970... but only certain
manufacturers. They weren't all schematically the same, some included
VCC in the common-mode range and some did not.


That's OK, as long as purchasing doesn't go behind your back and
switch vendors. Even worse, you use different vendors for different
products & the bean counters don't understand why.

On Wed, 08 Aug 2012 10:10:46 -0700, Fred Abse
wrote:



Some basic 741's really suck - they can deliver amps with no power supply
draw (I didn't bother to check the rest)

741s suck, period.
They looked pretty good when they were the best we had.
John, W8CCW
John Ferrell W8CCW

On Wed, 08 Aug 2012 22:26:45 -0400, John Ferrell
wrote:

On Wed, 08 Aug 2012 10:10:46 -0700, Fred Abse
wrote:



Some basic 741's really suck - they can deliver amps with no power supply
draw (I didn't bother to check the rest)

741s suck, period.
They looked pretty good when they were the best we had.
John, W8CCW
John Ferrell W8CCW

Around 1970 ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Tue, 07 Aug 2012 15:42:52 -0400, the renowned bitrex
wrote:

On 8/7/2012 3:27 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
I'm honing my Spice modeling skills and need some suggestions of
devices whose manufacturer-provided Spice model doesn't match reality
very well, or has serious issues.

I'll try my hand at modeling the device and post my results on these
newsgroups and on the LTspice list. It would be helpful if, when you
make a suggestion, you state where and how it fails to match up with
claimed data sheet performance.

[No real nasty systems-on-a-chip... I want to save those for paying
customers... and, for now, keep it limited to Analog parts :-]

...Jim Thompson


4046? (Does a Spice model even exist?)

A "preliminary" model:-


..subckt CD4046 sigin phcmpii phcmpi phpls compin vcoin
+ r1 r2 ce1 ce2 vcoout demout inhibit zener vdd vss
+ OPTIONAL: DPWR=$G_DPWR DGND=$G_DGND
+ PARAMS: MNTYMXDLY=0 IO_LEVEL=0
+ Rin=1Meg S1=1 S2=0.5 M1=0.5 M2=1.0 Vx=10
+ Kb=1 Vfree=0.0 Kc=-0.1 Vt=1.2 Vxqr=10

* Rin = VCO Input Resistace
* S1 = Voltage Limiter linear slope
* S2 = Voltage Limiter non-linear slope
* Vx = Input threshold voltage (between S1 and S2)
* Kb = Arbitrary constant to adjust the value of the conversion gain
(transimpedance gain)
* Vfree= Frequency dependent constant in Emult
* Kc = Negative inverse amplitude of the square wave
* Vt = Trigger voltage of Schmitt trigger (not used)
* Vxqr = Amplitude of square wave (not used)
* M1 = Current mirror multiplier to adjust oscillator frequency
* M2 = Current mirror multiplier to adjust oscillator frequency

* Preliminary model still under development based on Natinal
Semiconductor CD4046BM
* RAPerez 9/98

* Phase detector section

U1 INVA(4) DPWR DGND sigin compin isigin icompin
+ isigin icompin clk1 clk2
+ INVA_TIMING IO_HCT
+ MNTYMXDLY={MNTYMXDLY} IO_LEVEL={IO_LEVEL}

..MODEL INVA_TIMING UGATE

U2 XOR DPWR DGND isigin icompin xorout
+ XOR_TIMING IO_HCT
+ MNTYMXDLY={MNTYMXDLY} IO_LEVEL={IO_LEVEL}

..MODEL XOR_TIMING UGATE
***tplhty=20n tphlty=20n


U3 NAND(2) DPWR DGND q1 q2 pclr
+ NAND_TIMING IO_HCT
+ MNTYMXDLY={MNTYMXDLY} IO_LEVEL={IO_LEVEL}

..MODEL NAND_TIMING UGATE (tplhty=1n tphlty=1n)

U4 DFF(1) DPWR DGND $D_HI clr clk1 $D_HI q1 qb1
+ DFF1_TIMING IO_HCT
+ MNTYMXDLY={MNTYMXDLY} IO_LEVEL={IO_LEVEL}

..MODEL DFF1_TIMING UEFF tppcqlhty=4n tppcqhlty=4n tpclkqlhty=4n
tpclkqhlty=4n

U5 DFF(1) DPWR DGND $D_HI clr clk2 $D_HI q2 qb2
+ DFF2_TIMING IO_HCT
+ MNTYMXDLY={MNTYMXDLY} IO_LEVEL={IO_LEVEL}

..MODEL DFF2_TIMING UEFF tppcqlhty=5n tppcqhlty=5n tpclkqlhty=5n
tpclkqhlty=5n

U7 BUFA(2) DPWR DGND fq1 fq2 s1 s2
+ BUFA_TIMING IO_HCT
+ MNTYMXDLY={MNTYMXDLY} IO_LEVEL={IO_LEVEL}

..MODEL BUFA_TIMING UGATE

ST2 vdd phcmpii s1 0 swt
SB2 phcmpii vss s2 0 swt

..model swt VSWITCH (ROFF=2G RON=10m VOFF=0.8 VON=3.0)

U6 AND(2) DPWR DGND pclr reset clr
+ AND_TIMING IO_HCT
+ MNTYMXDLY={MNTYMXDLY} IO_LEVEL={IO_LEVEL}

..MODEL AND_TIMING UGATE

Ureset STIM(1,1) DPWR DGND
+ reset
+ IO_HCT
+ +0s 0
+ 2ns 1
+ 1s 1

U8 NOR(2) DPWR DGND fq1 fq2 norout
+ NOR_TIMING IO_HCT
+ MNTYMXDLY={MNTYMXDLY} IO_LEVEL={IO_LEVEL}

..MODEL NOR_TIMING UGATE

U9 ANDA(2,2) DPWR DGND q1 od1 q2 od2 fq1 fq2
+ ANDA_TIMING IO_HCT
+ MNTYMXDLY={MNTYMXDLY} IO_LEVEL={IO_LEVEL}

..MODEL ANDA_TIMING UGATE

U10 DLYLINE DPWR DGND q1 od1
+ DLY_TIMING IO_HCT
+ MNTYMXDLY={MNTYMXDLY} IO_LEVEL={IO_LEVEL}
U11 DLYLINE DPWR DGND q2 od2
+ DLY_TIMING IO_HCT
+ MNTYMXDLY={MNTYMXDLY} IO_LEVEL={IO_LEVEL}

..MODEL DLY_TIMING UDLY dlyty=12n

U12 BUFA(3) DPWR DGND norout xorout vcosqr phpls phcmpi vcoout
+ BUFB_TIMING IO_HCT
+ MNTYMXDLY={MNTYMXDLY} IO_LEVEL={IO_LEVEL}

..MODEL BUFB_TIMING UGATE



* VCO Section

Rin vcoin vss {Rin}
Evlim vlim 0 value={if(v(vcoin,vss)v(vdd,vss),
+
S1*v(vcoin,vss),S2*(v(vcoin,vss)-v(vdd,vss))+v(vdd,vss))}
Rvlim vlim 0 1Meg
Emult mix 0 value={v(vlim)*Kb+Vfree}
*Hmult mix 0 poly(1) Vcm 1.44 0.586
Rmult mix 0 1

Edemout demout 0 table={ 200Meg*v(vcoin,demout)*v(off) } (-20,-20)
(20,20)
Rdemout demout 0 1Meg
ER2 ir2 0 vdd ir2 200Meg
VR2 ir2 r2
ER1 ir1 0 mix ir1 200Meg
VR1 ir1 r1
Eosclg adj 0 table={abs((V(vdd)/I(VR2))/(V(mix)/I(VR1)))}
+ (0.5,1.43) (1,1.6) (10,1.04) (50,0.67) (100,0.84) (101,1)
+ (102,1) (1000,1)
Radj adj 0 1G
*GIM ce1 0 value={(M1*I(VR1)+M2*I(VR2))*Kc*V(sqrrc)}
GIM ce1 0 value={(M1*I(VR1)*V(adj)+M2*I(VR2))*Kc*V(sqrrc)}
*GIM ce1 0 value={(24*I(VR1)+3.067*I(VR2))}
Vcext ce2 0
Cstray ce1 ce2 6p
Rcext ce1 ce2 1T
Etrngl trngl 0 ce1 0 1
Rtrngl trngl 0 1Meg

Esqr sqr 0 value={-10Meg*V(trngl)+1.2Meg*V(sqrrc)}

Rsqr sqr sqrrc 0.1T
Csqr sqrrc 0 10f
Dsqr1 sqrrc 13 Diode
Vsqr1 13 0 {Vx}
Dsqr2 14 sqrrc Diode
..model Diode D (IS=10u N=0.1 CJO=80f RS=1m)
*.model Diode D (IS=10u N=0.001 CJO=80f)
Vsqr2 14 0 {-Vx}
Ipls 0 sqrrc pwl 0 0 10n 0 20n 0.01u 0.1u 0.01u 0.12u 0 1 0
Evcoout vcosqr 0 table={5.0*v(off)*(v(sqrrc)/Vx)} (0.1,0.1) (4.5,4.5)
*Rvcoout vcosqr vcosqr1 1

**Et 7 0 TABLE {-10k*V(trngl)+1.2k*V(sqrrc)} (-2,-10) (2,10)
*Ipls 0 sqrrc pwl 0 0 10n 0 20n 1u 0.1u 1u 0.12u 0 1 0
*Et 7 0
value={table({-10Meg*V(trngl)+1.2Meg*V(sqrrc)},-10,{-Vx},10,{Vx})}
*Ro 7 sqrrc 100
*Co sqrrc 0 100p

*Est sqrrc o VALUE={table({2000k*(V(st)-V(trngl))},-2,{-Vx},2,{Vx})}
*Rst1 sqrrc st 8.8k
*Rst2 st 0 1.2k
*Cst st 0 200p ic=-10

Rinhbt inhibit 0 1Meg
Eoff off 0 value={if(v(inhibit)0.9,1.0,0.0)}
Roff off 0 1Meg

Dzener vss zener znr
Rzener vss zener 1G
..model znr D(Is=1.004f Rs=.5875 Ikf=0 N=1 Xti=3 Eg=1.11 Cjo=160p
M=.5484
+ Vj=.75 Fc=.5 Isr=1.8n Nr=2 Bv=5.2 Ibv=27.721m
Nbv=1.1779
+ Ibvl=1.1646m Nbvl=21.894 Tbv1=176.47u)

..ends




Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

On Wed, 08 Aug 2012 22:47:55 -0400, Spehro Pefhany
wrote:

On Tue, 07 Aug 2012 15:42:52 -0400, the renowned bitrex
wrote:

On 8/7/2012 3:27 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
I'm honing my Spice modeling skills and need some suggestions of
devices whose manufacturer-provided Spice model doesn't match reality
very well, or has serious issues.

I'll try my hand at modeling the device and post my results on these
newsgroups and on the LTspice list. It would be helpful if, when you
make a suggestion, you state where and how it fails to match up with
claimed data sheet performance.

[No real nasty systems-on-a-chip... I want to save those for paying
customers... and, for now, keep it limited to Analog parts :-]

...Jim Thompson


4046? (Does a Spice model even exist?)

A "preliminary" model:-

Will run under PSpice, but nothing else. (MNTYMXDLY)



.subckt CD4046 sigin phcmpii phcmpi phpls compin vcoin
+ r1 r2 ce1 ce2 vcoout demout inhibit zener vdd vss
+ OPTIONAL: DPWR=$G_DPWR DGND=$G_DGND
+ PARAMS: MNTYMXDLY=0 IO_LEVEL=0
+ Rin=1Meg S1=1 S2=0.5 M1=0.5 M2=1.0 Vx=10
+ Kb=1 Vfree=0.0 Kc=-0.1 Vt=1.2 Vxqr=10

* Rin = VCO Input Resistace
* S1 = Voltage Limiter linear slope
* S2 = Voltage Limiter non-linear slope
* Vx = Input threshold voltage (between S1 and S2)
* Kb = Arbitrary constant to adjust the value of the conversion gain
(transimpedance gain)
* Vfree= Frequency dependent constant in Emult
* Kc = Negative inverse amplitude of the square wave
* Vt = Trigger voltage of Schmitt trigger (not used)
* Vxqr = Amplitude of square wave (not used)
* M1 = Current mirror multiplier to adjust oscillator frequency
* M2 = Current mirror multiplier to adjust oscillator frequency

* Preliminary model still under development based on Natinal
Semiconductor CD4046BM
* RAPerez 9/98

* Phase detector section

U1 INVA(4) DPWR DGND sigin compin isigin icompin
+ isigin icompin clk1 clk2
+ INVA_TIMING IO_HCT
+ MNTYMXDLY={MNTYMXDLY} IO_LEVEL={IO_LEVEL}

.MODEL INVA_TIMING UGATE

U2 XOR DPWR DGND isigin icompin xorout
+ XOR_TIMING IO_HCT
+ MNTYMXDLY={MNTYMXDLY} IO_LEVEL={IO_LEVEL}

.MODEL XOR_TIMING UGATE
***tplhty=20n tphlty=20n


U3 NAND(2) DPWR DGND q1 q2 pclr
+ NAND_TIMING IO_HCT
+ MNTYMXDLY={MNTYMXDLY} IO_LEVEL={IO_LEVEL}

.MODEL NAND_TIMING UGATE (tplhty=1n tphlty=1n)

U4 DFF(1) DPWR DGND $D_HI clr clk1 $D_HI q1 qb1
+ DFF1_TIMING IO_HCT
+ MNTYMXDLY={MNTYMXDLY} IO_LEVEL={IO_LEVEL}

.MODEL DFF1_TIMING UEFF tppcqlhty=4n tppcqhlty=4n tpclkqlhty=4n
tpclkqhlty=4n

U5 DFF(1) DPWR DGND $D_HI clr clk2 $D_HI q2 qb2
+ DFF2_TIMING IO_HCT
+ MNTYMXDLY={MNTYMXDLY} IO_LEVEL={IO_LEVEL}

.MODEL DFF2_TIMING UEFF tppcqlhty=5n tppcqhlty=5n tpclkqlhty=5n
tpclkqhlty=5n

U7 BUFA(2) DPWR DGND fq1 fq2 s1 s2
+ BUFA_TIMING IO_HCT
+ MNTYMXDLY={MNTYMXDLY} IO_LEVEL={IO_LEVEL}

.MODEL BUFA_TIMING UGATE

ST2 vdd phcmpii s1 0 swt
SB2 phcmpii vss s2 0 swt

.model swt VSWITCH (ROFF=2G RON=10m VOFF=0.8 VON=3.0)

U6 AND(2) DPWR DGND pclr reset clr
+ AND_TIMING IO_HCT
+ MNTYMXDLY={MNTYMXDLY} IO_LEVEL={IO_LEVEL}

.MODEL AND_TIMING UGATE

Ureset STIM(1,1) DPWR DGND
+ reset
+ IO_HCT
+ +0s 0
+ 2ns 1
+ 1s 1

U8 NOR(2) DPWR DGND fq1 fq2 norout
+ NOR_TIMING IO_HCT
+ MNTYMXDLY={MNTYMXDLY} IO_LEVEL={IO_LEVEL}

.MODEL NOR_TIMING UGATE

U9 ANDA(2,2) DPWR DGND q1 od1 q2 od2 fq1 fq2
+ ANDA_TIMING IO_HCT
+ MNTYMXDLY={MNTYMXDLY} IO_LEVEL={IO_LEVEL}

.MODEL ANDA_TIMING UGATE

U10 DLYLINE DPWR DGND q1 od1
+ DLY_TIMING IO_HCT
+ MNTYMXDLY={MNTYMXDLY} IO_LEVEL={IO_LEVEL}
U11 DLYLINE DPWR DGND q2 od2
+ DLY_TIMING IO_HCT
+ MNTYMXDLY={MNTYMXDLY} IO_LEVEL={IO_LEVEL}

.MODEL DLY_TIMING UDLY dlyty=12n

U12 BUFA(3) DPWR DGND norout xorout vcosqr phpls phcmpi vcoout
+ BUFB_TIMING IO_HCT
+ MNTYMXDLY={MNTYMXDLY} IO_LEVEL={IO_LEVEL}

.MODEL BUFB_TIMING UGATE



* VCO Section

Rin vcoin vss {Rin}
Evlim vlim 0 value={if(v(vcoin,vss)v(vdd,vss),
+
S1*v(vcoin,vss),S2*(v(vcoin,vss)-v(vdd,vss))+v(vdd,vss))}
Rvlim vlim 0 1Meg
Emult mix 0 value={v(vlim)*Kb+Vfree}
*Hmult mix 0 poly(1) Vcm 1.44 0.586
Rmult mix 0 1

Edemout demout 0 table={ 200Meg*v(vcoin,demout)*v(off) } (-20,-20)
(20,20)
Rdemout demout 0 1Meg
ER2 ir2 0 vdd ir2 200Meg
VR2 ir2 r2
ER1 ir1 0 mix ir1 200Meg
VR1 ir1 r1
Eosclg adj 0 table={abs((V(vdd)/I(VR2))/(V(mix)/I(VR1)))}
+ (0.5,1.43) (1,1.6) (10,1.04) (50,0.67) (100,0.84) (101,1)
+ (102,1) (1000,1)
Radj adj 0 1G
*GIM ce1 0 value={(M1*I(VR1)+M2*I(VR2))*Kc*V(sqrrc)}
GIM ce1 0 value={(M1*I(VR1)*V(adj)+M2*I(VR2))*Kc*V(sqrrc)}
*GIM ce1 0 value={(24*I(VR1)+3.067*I(VR2))}
Vcext ce2 0
Cstray ce1 ce2 6p
Rcext ce1 ce2 1T
Etrngl trngl 0 ce1 0 1
Rtrngl trngl 0 1Meg

Esqr sqr 0 value={-10Meg*V(trngl)+1.2Meg*V(sqrrc)}

Rsqr sqr sqrrc 0.1T
Csqr sqrrc 0 10f
Dsqr1 sqrrc 13 Diode
Vsqr1 13 0 {Vx}
Dsqr2 14 sqrrc Diode
.model Diode D (IS=10u N=0.1 CJO=80f RS=1m)
*.model Diode D (IS=10u N=0.001 CJO=80f)
Vsqr2 14 0 {-Vx}
Ipls 0 sqrrc pwl 0 0 10n 0 20n 0.01u 0.1u 0.01u 0.12u 0 1 0
Evcoout vcosqr 0 table={5.0*v(off)*(v(sqrrc)/Vx)} (0.1,0.1) (4.5,4.5)
*Rvcoout vcosqr vcosqr1 1

**Et 7 0 TABLE {-10k*V(trngl)+1.2k*V(sqrrc)} (-2,-10) (2,10)
*Ipls 0 sqrrc pwl 0 0 10n 0 20n 1u 0.1u 1u 0.12u 0 1 0
*Et 7 0
value={table({-10Meg*V(trngl)+1.2Meg*V(sqrrc)},-10,{-Vx},10,{Vx})}
*Ro 7 sqrrc 100
*Co sqrrc 0 100p

*Est sqrrc o VALUE={table({2000k*(V(st)-V(trngl))},-2,{-Vx},2,{Vx})}
*Rst1 sqrrc st 8.8k
*Rst2 st 0 1.2k
*Cst st 0 200p ic=-10

Rinhbt inhibit 0 1Meg
Eoff off 0 value={if(v(inhibit)0.9,1.0,0.0)}
Roff off 0 1Meg

Dzener vss zener znr
Rzener vss zener 1G
.model znr D(Is=1.004f Rs=.5875 Ikf=0 N=1 Xti=3 Eg=1.11 Cjo=160p
M=.5484
+ Vj=.75 Fc=.5 Isr=1.8n Nr=2 Bv=5.2 Ibv=27.721m
Nbv=1.1779
+ Ibvl=1.1646m Nbvl=21.894 Tbv1=176.47u)

.ends




Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

flipper wrote:

On Wed, 08 Aug 2012 19:12:18 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Jim Thompson wrote:

Fred Abse wrote:

741s suck, period.

Yup. You have to wonder why people use such out-of-date technology.


What else would out of date 'engineers' use? ;-)

The Philbrick K2-W.


Mine is kind of a mustard yellow color, but they are hell on
batteries. ;-)

flipper wrote:

On Thu, 09 Aug 2012 00:27:46 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


flipper wrote:

On Wed, 08 Aug 2012 19:12:18 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Jim Thompson wrote:

Fred Abse wrote:

741s suck, period.

Yup. You have to wonder why people use such out-of-date technology.


What else would out of date 'engineers' use? ;-)

The Philbrick K2-W.


Mine is kind of a mustard yellow color, but they are hell on
batteries. ;-)

LOL. Yeah, not exactly 'cell phone' compatible, is it?

I love looking at what people had to work with and what they did with
it. For example, here is what very well might be the first 'large
screen TV', and plasma no less.

http://www.earlytelevision.org/bell_labs.html

Can you imagine being the poor schmuck who had to had wire that
display commutator?

And, considering how people love to bitch about, so called, "planned
obsolescence" I wonder what the MTBF on that thing was.

News flash: "Two-Way Television Closes Two-Mile gap." Holy Hannah! 2
miles!

I just love the title of this 1928 article: "Television Perfected at
Last." http://www.earlytelevision.org/tv_perfected.html

And in this 1930 article they've done color. I mean, what else is
there? http://www.earlytelevision.org/bell_labs_booklet.html

Makes the Philbrick look downright science fictiony, doesn't it?


At least they survived.

On Wed, 08 Aug 2012 23:15:49 -0500, flipper wrote:

On Wed, 08 Aug 2012 19:12:18 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Jim Thompson wrote:

Fred Abse wrote:

741s suck, period.

Yup. You have to wonder why people use such out-of-date technology.


What else would out of date 'engineers' use? ;-)

The Philbrick K2-W.

I remember when that was _current_ technology

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

Jim Thompson wrote:

I'm honing my Spice modeling skills and need some suggestions of
devices whose manufacturer-provided Spice model doesn't match reality
very well, or has serious issues.

Scary Spice? http://www.google.com/images?q=scary+spice

--
Paul Hovnanian
------------------------------------------------------------------
Opinions stated herein are the sole property of the author. Standard
disclaimers apply. Celebrity voice impersonated. Batteries not included.
Limit one to a customer. Best if used by April 1, 2013. Refrigerate
after opening. Void if removed.

On Tue, 07 Aug 2012 15:42:52 -0400, bitrex
wrote:

On 8/7/2012 3:27 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
I'm honing my Spice modeling skills and need some suggestions of
devices whose manufacturer-provided Spice model doesn't match reality
very well, or has serious issues.

I'll try my hand at modeling the device and post my results on these
newsgroups and on the LTspice list. It would be helpful if, when you
make a suggestion, you state where and how it fails to match up with
claimed data sheet performance.

[No real nasty systems-on-a-chip... I want to save those for paying
customers... and, for now, keep it limited to Analog parts :-]

...Jim Thompson


4046? (Does a Spice model even exist?)

Got delayed by paying work ;-)

Could someone 'scope each end of the VCO timing cap (C1, pins 6 & 7)
and tell me what they look like? (The block diagram implies a
physical impossibility, so there's something limiting the pull-down
switches to some voltage. A waveform will expose the "secret"

Thanks!

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.