Did you know that the USPS allows letter carriers to take leave w/o
pay (but with no chance of job loss) to go campaign for Obama, salary
paid for completely by the Letter Carriers Union?

These letter carriers are the primary source of the picketers outside
of McCain/Palin campaign headquarter locations.

The worst is yet to come :-(

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave

Jim Thompson wrote:

Did you know that the USPS allows letter carriers to take leave w/o
pay (but with no chance of job loss) to go campaign for Obama, salary
paid for completely by the Letter Carriers Union?

I'd guess they could take LWOP to campaign for McCain/Palin if they
wanted to. Any cites to indicate that this is not the case would be
interesting reading indeed.

--
Paul Hovnanian
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Have gnu, will travel.

On Thu, 02 Oct 2008 10:44:44 -0700, "Paul Hovnanian P.E."
wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:

Did you know that the USPS allows letter carriers to take leave w/o
pay (but with no chance of job loss) to go campaign for Obama, salary
paid for completely by the Letter Carriers Union?

I'd guess they could take LWOP to campaign for McCain/Palin if they
wanted to. Any cites to indicate that this is not the case would be
interesting reading indeed.

What is LWOP?

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine Sometimes I even put it in the food

Jim Thompson wrote:
On Thu, 02 Oct 2008 10:44:44 -0700, "Paul Hovnanian P.E."
wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:

Did you know that the USPS allows letter carriers to take leave w/o
pay (but with no chance of job loss) to go campaign for Obama,
salary paid for completely by the Letter Carriers Union?

I'd guess they could take LWOP to campaign for McCain/Palin if they
wanted to. Any cites to indicate that this is not the case would be
interesting reading indeed.

What is LWOP?

Leave With-Out Pay

On Thu, 2 Oct 2008 12:56:43 -0500, "Anthony Fremont"
wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:
On Thu, 02 Oct 2008 10:44:44 -0700, "Paul Hovnanian P.E."
wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:

Did you know that the USPS allows letter carriers to take leave w/o
pay (but with no chance of job loss) to go campaign for Obama,
salary paid for completely by the Letter Carriers Union?

I'd guess they could take LWOP to campaign for McCain/Palin if they
wanted to. Any cites to indicate that this is not the case would be
interesting reading indeed.

What is LWOP?

Leave With-Out Pay


Oh! But would the union make up their pay like they do for Obama
campaigners? I think not.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

Viewed from afar, even whores and Democrats seem reputable

Anthony Fremont wrote:
Jim Thompson wrote:
On Thu, 02 Oct 2008 10:44:44 -0700, "Paul Hovnanian P.E."
wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:
Did you know that the USPS allows letter carriers to take leave w/o
pay (but with no chance of job loss) to go campaign for Obama,
salary paid for completely by the Letter Carriers Union?
I'd guess they could take LWOP to campaign for McCain/Palin if they
wanted to. Any cites to indicate that this is not the case would be
interesting reading indeed.
What is LWOP?

Leave With-Out Pay



I have no doubt that there are campaigners of both parties who are being
compensated either knowingly or unknowingly by their employers. Many are
probably govt employees being compensated by the taxpayer. If you extend
this back the last couple of years and consider that this happens every
4 years, that amounts to a lot of lost productivity.

--
Joe Leikhim K4SAT
"The RFI-EMI-GUY"©

"Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason?
For if it prosper, none dare call it treason."

"Follow The Money" ;-P

On Thu, 02 Oct 2008 18:13:02 -0400, RFI-EMI-GUY
wrote:

Anthony Fremont wrote:
Jim Thompson wrote:
On Thu, 02 Oct 2008 10:44:44 -0700, "Paul Hovnanian P.E."
wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:
Did you know that the USPS allows letter carriers to take leave w/o
pay (but with no chance of job loss) to go campaign for Obama,
salary paid for completely by the Letter Carriers Union?
I'd guess they could take LWOP to campaign for McCain/Palin if they
wanted to. Any cites to indicate that this is not the case would be
interesting reading indeed.
What is LWOP?

Leave With-Out Pay



I have no doubt that there are campaigners of both parties who are being
compensated either knowingly or unknowingly by their employers. Many are
probably govt employees being compensated by the taxpayer. If you extend
this back the last couple of years and consider that this happens every
4 years, that amounts to a lot of lost productivity.

Maybe.

As I used the joke about our infamous Governor Ev Mecham...

He was our best governor ever because...

He was good for at least one laugh per day, "Pickaninnies, etc."

He couldn't get any of his ideas passed by the legislature.

The legislature couldn't get anything past Ev's veto.

Government at its finest... at a total standstill.

Unfortunately they finally impeached him and found him guilty :-(

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil
is that good men do nothing.
-Edmund Burke

Jim Thompson wrote:

On Thu, 2 Oct 2008 12:56:43 -0500, "Anthony Fremont"
wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:
On Thu, 02 Oct 2008 10:44:44 -0700, "Paul Hovnanian P.E."
wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:

Did you know that the USPS allows letter carriers to take leave w/o
pay (but with no chance of job loss) to go campaign for Obama,
salary paid for completely by the Letter Carriers Union?

I'd guess they could take LWOP to campaign for McCain/Palin if they
wanted to. Any cites to indicate that this is not the case would be
interesting reading indeed.

What is LWOP?

Leave With-Out Pay


Oh! But would the union make up their pay like they do for Obama
campaigners? I think not.

No. But the union is hiring workers that have been made available to
work for its political action group. If a worker took leave, nothing
would stop them from taking a temp job with a GOP PAC.

--
Paul Hovnanian
------------------------------------------------------------------
Ban the bomb. Save the world for conventional warfare.

On Thu, 02 Oct 2008 09:33:45 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:


Did you know that the USPS allows letter carriers to take leave w/o
pay (but with no chance of job loss) to go campaign for Obama, salary
paid for completely by the Letter Carriers Union?

These letter carriers are the primary source of the picketers outside
of McCain/Palin campaign headquarter locations.

The worst is yet to come :-(

...Jim Thompson

Where'd you find this info?

--


----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

On Fri, 03 Oct 2008 11:21:20 -0400, default
wrote:

On Thu, 02 Oct 2008 09:33:45 -0700, Jim Thompson
wrote:


Did you know that the USPS allows letter carriers to take leave w/o
pay (but with no chance of job loss) to go campaign for Obama, salary
paid for completely by the Letter Carriers Union?

These letter carriers are the primary source of the picketers outside
of McCain/Palin campaign headquarter locations.

The worst is yet to come :-(

...Jim Thompson

Where'd you find this info?

A postal union steward here in Phoenix called into a talk radio show
to complain about it.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine Sometimes I even put it in the food

"Jim Thompson" wrote in
message ...
Did you know that the USPS allows letter carriers to take leave w/o
pay (but with no chance of job loss) to go campaign for Obama, salary
paid for completely by the Letter Carriers Union?

I didn't know that, but in general I'd hope that most businesses would allow
their employees to go and campaign for their favorite politicians so long as
their absence doesn't impact productivity (i.e., they get someone else to
cover for their shift or, when viable, make up the time later) or cost the
business money.

I bet John Larkin would let his guys go to a McCain rally under similar
circumstances... :-)

The employees getting reimbursed by their union is between them and the union,
I'd think...

On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 10:51:52 -0700, "Joel Koltner"
wrote:

"Jim Thompson" wrote in
message ...
Did you know that the USPS allows letter carriers to take leave w/o
pay (but with no chance of job loss) to go campaign for Obama, salary
paid for completely by the Letter Carriers Union?

I didn't know that, but in general I'd hope that most businesses would allow
their employees to go and campaign for their favorite politicians so long as
their absence doesn't impact productivity (i.e., they get someone else to
cover for their shift or, when viable, make up the time later) or cost the
business money.

I bet John Larkin would let his guys go to a McCain rally under similar
circumstances... :-)

The employees getting reimbursed by their union is between them and the union,
I'd think...


USPS? Or do you leftist weenies just simply gloss over facts?

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

"It isn't that democrats are ignorant. Far from it... it's just that
they know so much that just isn't so" -Ronald Reagan

"Jim Thompson" wrote in
message ...
USPS?

You can't ding the USPS employees if the deal is just that the government is a
poor negotiator with the employees' union...

In most cases any business with a union ends up that way because of poor
management. The various attempts to unionize, e.g., fast food workers or
Wal*Mart workers tend to fail, IMO, because in general the employees are
reasonably happy with their terms of employment.

On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 13:06:13 -0700, "Joel Koltner"
wrote:

"Jim Thompson" wrote in
message ...
USPS?

You can't ding the USPS employees if the deal is just that the government is a
poor negotiator with the employees' union...

In most cases any business with a union ends up that way because of poor
management. The various attempts to unionize, e.g., fast food workers or
Wal*Mart workers tend to fail, IMO, because in general the employees are
reasonably happy with their terms of employment.



USPS is, for some time, actually a GSE. We ought to privatize it, and
allow competition.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

Liberals are so cute. Â*Dumb as a box of rocks, but cute.

On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 18:57:41 -0500, flipper wrote:

On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 13:06:13 -0700, "Joel Koltner"
wrote:

"Jim Thompson" wrote in
message ...
USPS?

You can't ding the USPS employees if the deal is just that the government is a
poor negotiator with the employees' union...

In most cases any business with a union ends up that way because of poor
management. The various attempts to unionize, e.g., fast food workers or
Wal*Mart workers tend to fail, IMO, because in general the employees are
reasonably happy with their terms of employment.

Now you sound like a 'Republican' but liberals don't work that way.
Unions are 'good', period, regardless of how good anything else is and
they write laws to make it so, some Federal and some State. Like, for
example, 'closed shop' states where it's flat illegal to work in a
unionized professions unless you join the union, so it doesn't matter
one whit how good 'management' is.

And our Union loving friends have proposed a law banning secret ballot
voting (precisely because of the 'problem' you describe) so union
thugs, who, as the saying goes, 'know where you live', can 'observe'
whether you vote the 'proper' way.

And, of all people, even George McGovern has come out against it,
which gives you an idea of what has become of, so called,
'liberalism'.

Frankly, I am loath to call 'liberals' liberals because they are
anything but. They have simply usurped the word but none of the
meaning.

Yep. I'M a Liberal in the full Libertarian sense. Today's "liberals"
are leftist weenie socialist bums/thieves/leaches.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

Liberals are so cute. Â*Dumb as a box of rocks, but cute.

"flipper" wrote in message
...
Now you sound like a 'Republican' but liberals don't work that way.
Unions are 'good', period, regardless of how good anything else is and
they write laws to make it so, some Federal and some State.

Yeah, I certainly don't agree with that. Historically, many unions were
good... these days, it's very much a mixed bag, with plenty of unions doing
more to hurt the company they're with than helping their workers.

Like, for
example, 'closed shop' states where it's flat illegal to work in a
unionized professions unless you join the union, so it doesn't matter
one whit how good 'management' is.

If I ran such a company I'd be looking the for means to legally dissolve it on
a Friday & re-open it on a Monday as a new company... without a union. Anyone
who didn't want their old job back -- sans union -- could go and find another
one...

And our Union loving friends have proposed a law banning secret ballot
voting (precisely because of the 'problem' you describe) so union
thugs, who, as the saying goes, 'know where you live', can 'observe'
whether you vote the 'proper' way.

That's ridiculous.

---Joel

On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 17:29:37 -0700, "Joel Koltner"
wrote:

"flipper" wrote in message
.. .
Now you sound like a 'Republican' but liberals don't work that way.
Unions are 'good', period, regardless of how good anything else is and
they write laws to make it so, some Federal and some State.

Yeah, I certainly don't agree with that. Historically, many unions were
good... these days, it's very much a mixed bag, with plenty of unions doing
more to hurt the company they're with than helping their workers.

Like, for
example, 'closed shop' states where it's flat illegal to work in a
unionized professions unless you join the union, so it doesn't matter
one whit how good 'management' is.

If I ran such a company I'd be looking the for means to legally dissolve it on
a Friday & re-open it on a Monday as a new company... without a union. Anyone
who didn't want their old job back -- sans union -- could go and find another
one...

That's basically what happened with INCO in Huntington, WV, though it
took about a year for the facility to be sold and resurrect as
Specialty Metals, sans union and at 1/5 the hourly pay and with no
benefits ;-)


And our Union loving friends have proposed a law banning secret ballot
voting (precisely because of the 'problem' you describe) so union
thugs, who, as the saying goes, 'know where you live', can 'observe'
whether you vote the 'proper' way.

That's ridiculous.

---Joel


Except it's true... one of our queer Democrat Congressmen, Mitchell of
Arizona, is a co-sponsor of the bill. But there's a fair chance he'll
get bounced on his ass this election.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine Sometimes I even put it in the food

flipper wrote:
On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 17:29:37 -0700, "Joel Koltner"
wrote:

"flipper" wrote in message
...
Now you sound like a 'Republican' but liberals don't work that way.
Unions are 'good', period, regardless of how good anything else is and
they write laws to make it so, some Federal and some State.
Yeah, I certainly don't agree with that. Historically, many unions were
good... these days, it's very much a mixed bag, with plenty of unions doing
more to hurt the company they're with than helping their workers.

Like, for
example, 'closed shop' states where it's flat illegal to work in a
unionized professions unless you join the union, so it doesn't matter
one whit how good 'management' is.
If I ran such a company I'd be looking the for means to legally dissolve it on
a Friday & re-open it on a Monday as a new company... without a union. Anyone
who didn't want their old job back -- sans union -- could go and find another
one...

There ya got me because I don't live in a closed shop state so I don't
know the finer points of how well that would work.


And our Union loving friends have proposed a law banning secret ballot
voting (precisely because of the 'problem' you describe) so union
thugs, who, as the saying goes, 'know where you live', can 'observe'
whether you vote the 'proper' way.
That's ridiculous.

Well, I think it goes past ridiculous but it does seem to be typical
of modern 'liberals' who are 'outcome based', and to hell with
principles.


---Joel

Obama gets in it's a done deal. He supports that bit of insanity.

"Jim Thompson" wrote in
message ...
That's basically what happened with INCO in Huntington, WV, though it
took about a year for the facility to be sold and resurrect as
Specialty Metals, sans union and at 1/5 the hourly pay and with no
benefits ;-)

That seems rather draconian, but of course I don't know anything about the
industry -- if they're still producing a quality product and managing to
attract employees, more power to them, I suppose. To me paying very little
and offering no benefits would suggest that the job doesn't require skilled
labor to produce quality output nor that employee retention matters a lot. In
fact, it's probably be the kind of job that robots ought to be doing. :-)

Back in the late '80s as a teen I applied to work for a video rental store,
asking for $5/hr when the minimum wage was then $3.35/hr. The guy told me no
way was he going to pay me that, which at the time just made me mad, since I
knew I could typically be at least 50% more productive than the average worker
and also had the "computer skills" that -- again at the time -- it was
unlikely other teens would have had. In retrospect of course the real problem
was that there was no reason for the guy to *know* I really was worth more...
or that he necessarily *wanted* someone worth more in the first place. I see
somewhat similar behavior in industry today: Many managers, not being
particularly skilled themselves, would rather hire three mediocre engineers
for $50k/year, rather than two really good engineers who will be more
productive than the three at, say, $70k/year, even though the later scenario
is better both for the employees and the company.

---Joel

On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 11:35:54 -0700, "Joel Koltner"
wrote:

"Jim Thompson" wrote in
message ...
That's basically what happened with INCO in Huntington, WV, though it
took about a year for the facility to be sold and resurrect as
Specialty Metals, sans union and at 1/5 the hourly pay and with no
benefits ;-)

That seems rather draconian, but of course I don't know anything about the
industry -- if they're still producing a quality product and managing to
attract employees, more power to them, I suppose. To me paying very little
and offering no benefits would suggest that the job doesn't require skilled
labor to produce quality output nor that employee retention matters a lot. In
fact, it's probably be the kind of job that robots ought to be doing. :-)

What happened was that union employees earning, on average, $35/hour
plus benefits (equivalent to ~$50/hour), demanded more than INCO could
afford to pay. INCO just closed the doors. Specialty Metals won the
game ;-)


Back in the late '80s as a teen I applied to work for a video rental store,
asking for $5/hr when the minimum wage was then $3.35/hr. The guy told me no
way was he going to pay me that, which at the time just made me mad, since I
knew I could typically be at least 50% more productive than the average worker
and also had the "computer skills" that -- again at the time -- it was
unlikely other teens would have had. In retrospect of course the real problem
was that there was no reason for the guy to *know* I really was worth more...
or that he necessarily *wanted* someone worth more in the first place. I see
somewhat similar behavior in industry today: Many managers, not being
particularly skilled themselves, would rather hire three mediocre engineers
for $50k/year, rather than two really good engineers who will be more
productive than the three at, say, $70k/year, even though the later scenario
is better both for the employees and the company.

---Joel


**** the unions.

But vote for Obama... a depression is good for the country.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

Vote Barack... Help Make America an Obama-nation

"flipper" wrote in message
...
Depends on whether everything the company does actually 'needs' a $70k
level of skill, don't you think?

I'll take two "overqualified" $70k/year engineers who can do the job of three
$50k/year "decently qualified" engineers any day... at worst, they get bored
and leave, at best (and very likely), they'll conjure up even better solutions
than what they were originally asked to implement, saving the company even
more money.

In actuality, the typical choice is more like "two decently qualified
engineers at $70k/year" vs. "three not-quite-qualified engineers at
$50k/year": Even if management knows their people aren't quite qualified for
the job, they figure tossing more people in will surely fix the problem.
There's certainly some truth to this stategy, but it's just not a good one for
the long-term health of a company IMO: All the really good guys leave because
they don't want to work with all the mediocre guys, who'll hold onto their
jobs as long as possible because it's that much harder for them to *find*
alternative employment. (The logical extension of this managerial strategy is
outsourcing, e.g., your programming staff to some low-wage nation... they may
not be very good, but they're so cheap you can hire a whole bunch more of them
to "make up the difference!" Some companies believe this is a profitable
strategy... but I sure don't. Case in point: ORCAD Capture 15.7, which is now
"maintained" in India *broke the ability to copy and paste within the symbol
editor!* It took them a handful of months before they released a service pack
to fix this, but I just can't understand how any "qualified" programmers could
*ever* break something that "fundamental" *and not even notice!*)

Not that I'm trying to bash Indians/etc. here... plenty of them are very good
programmers, and I wouldn't necessarily even claim that on average they aren't
as good as U.S. programmers -- I just don't know -- but they definitely are
cheaper. And if your management themselves isn't qualified to tell the good
programmers from the bad anyway, they might as well go with "cheap!"

And, consider, if companies were inclined, and able, to execute your
scenario every $50k level, or less, engineer would be unemployed.

This is the same argument I heard a little old lady making in line at the post
office yesterday: "I don't like using the automated postage machine, because
it puts someone out of a job." Sure, it might, but I'm confident that the
economy can grow without limits (it's not a zero sum game!), so there will be
new jobs created when the old ones are dissolved. Additionally, those new
ones -- while they'll often require more/different skills than the old one --
will tend to be more interesting and less "mechanical" than the old ones.

Life-long learning and being able to jump around a bit from industry to
industry is a Good Thing. :-)

---Joel

On Wed, 15 Oct 2008 09:19:40 -0700, "Joel Koltner"
wrote:

"flipper" wrote in message
.. .
Depends on whether everything the company does actually 'needs' a $70k
level of skill, don't you think?

I'll take two "overqualified" $70k/year engineers who can do the job of three
$50k/year "decently qualified" engineers any day... at worst, they get bored
and leave, at best (and very likely), they'll conjure up even better solutions
than what they were originally asked to implement, saving the company even
more money.

In actuality, the typical choice is more like "two decently qualified
engineers at $70k/year" vs. "three not-quite-qualified engineers at
$50k/year": Even if management knows their people aren't quite qualified for
the job, they figure tossing more people in will surely fix the problem.
There's certainly some truth to this stategy, but it's just not a good one for
the long-term health of a company IMO: All the really good guys leave because
they don't want to work with all the mediocre guys, who'll hold onto their
jobs as long as possible because it's that much harder for them to *find*
alternative employment. (The logical extension of this managerial strategy is
outsourcing, e.g., your programming staff to some low-wage nation... they may
not be very good, but they're so cheap you can hire a whole bunch more of them
to "make up the difference!" Some companies believe this is a profitable
strategy... but I sure don't. Case in point: ORCAD Capture 15.7, which is now
"maintained" in India *broke the ability to copy and paste within the symbol
editor!* It took them a handful of months before they released a service pack
to fix this, but I just can't understand how any "qualified" programmers could
*ever* break something that "fundamental" *and not even notice!*)

Not that I'm trying to bash Indians/etc. here... plenty of them are very good
programmers, and I wouldn't necessarily even claim that on average they aren't
as good as U.S. programmers -- I just don't know -- but they definitely are
cheaper. And if your management themselves isn't qualified to tell the good
programmers from the bad anyway, they might as well go with "cheap!"

And, consider, if companies were inclined, and able, to execute your
scenario every $50k level, or less, engineer would be unemployed.

This is the same argument I heard a little old lady making in line at the post
office yesterday: "I don't like using the automated postage machine, because
it puts someone out of a job." Sure, it might, but I'm confident that the
economy can grow without limits (it's not a zero sum game!), so there will be
new jobs created when the old ones are dissolved. Additionally, those new
ones -- while they'll often require more/different skills than the old one --
will tend to be more interesting and less "mechanical" than the old ones.

Life-long learning and being able to jump around a bit from industry to
industry is a Good Thing. :-)

---Joel


After Obama is elected everything will change. Most non-management
engineers will be laid off, due to overhead/benefit costs. Then
consultants will be contracted. I generally make out like a bandit
during hard economic times... but you leftist weenies deserve what you
vote for ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

Liberalism is a persistent vegetative state

"Jim Thompson" wrote in
message ...
After Obama is elected everything will change. Most non-management
engineers will be laid off, due to overhead/benefit costs. Then
consultants will be contracted. I generally make out like a bandit
during hard economic times...

I'm not sure things are going to be noticeably worse economically under Obama
than under McCain, but I guess we'll soon see.

You're thinking the republicans are a shoo-in for 2012 though, eh? Weren't
you also claiming some months back that McCain was "clearly" going to be
president in 2008 though? :-)

If you get more business in the next few years, I'll be happy for you Jim.
Even if you don't support all the same causes I might, you're generous with
your wealth, and that's admirable.

---Joel

On Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:35:12 -0700, "Joel Koltner"
wrote:

"Jim Thompson" wrote in
message ...
After Obama is elected everything will change. Most non-management
engineers will be laid off, due to overhead/benefit costs. Then
consultants will be contracted. I generally make out like a bandit
during hard economic times...

I'm not sure things are going to be noticeably worse economically under Obama
than under McCain, but I guess we'll soon see.

You're thinking the republicans are a shoo-in for 2012 though, eh? Weren't
you also claiming some months back that McCain was "clearly" going to be
president in 2008 though? :-)

I don't think so. I think I was afraid Hillary was going to win. Now
I wish it were her rather than Obama :-(


If you get more business in the next few years, I'll be happy for you Jim.
Even if you don't support all the same causes I might, you're generous with
your wealth, and that's admirable.

---Joel


I don't support any liberals ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine Sometimes I even put it in the food