** For SEB readers:


Does this "Motorola" transistor look just a tad suspicious ??




........ Phil

Phil Allison wrote:

** For SEB readers:

Does this "Motorola" transistor look just a tad suspicious ??

....... Phil

Where did you find that one ?

Graham

"Eeysore PITA Fool" "

Phil Allison wrote:

** For SEB readers:

Does this "Motorola" transistor look just a tad suspicious ??


Where did you find that one ?


** A thousand or more ( plus fake MJ15004s and others) were imported by "
Dick Smith Electronics " and sold through their stores in Australia and New
Zealand in 2001 - either in amplifier kits or as loose parts.





........ Phil

"Chairman Of The Asinine ****wits"


One IS hooked up as a transistor, the other is being used as a diode.


** ROTFLMAO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What a ****ing HOOT !!!

Autism central.



......... Phil

"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...

** For SEB readers:


Does this "Motorola" transistor look just a tad suspicious ??




....... Phil

How did you take that neat picture?
Harry

"Harry Dellamano"
"Phil Allison"

** For SEB readers:


Does this "Motorola" transistor look just a tad suspicious ??


How did you take that neat picture?


** Very easy - using a Canon A430 set to "Super Macro" mode.

I used only the fluorescent light available on my workbench and sat the
device on a note pad - the camera was hand held.

The A430 can get down to a lot smaller than a TO3 pack, the smallest
focusable are is about 4 x 3 mm.



....... Phil

"Phil Allison"


The A430 can get down to a lot smaller than a TO3 pack, the smallest
focusable are is about 4 x 3 mm.


** See pic of a Semelab BUZ901 lateral power MOSFET chip (4 x 4mm).





...... Phil

"Chairman Of The Asinine ****wits"


One IS hooked up as a transistor, the other is being used as a diode.


** ROTFLMAO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What a ****ing HOOT !!!

Autism central.



Better than you being the utter retard that called it "the MEX190".



** So the dumb**** ASS is BLIND as well.


What a absolute HOOT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!



......... Phil

"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...

"Chairman Of The Asinine ****wits"


One IS hooked up as a transistor, the other is being used as a diode.


** ROTFLMAO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What a ****ing HOOT !!!

Autism central.



Better than you being the utter retard that called it "the MEX190".



** So the dumb**** ASS is BLIND as well.


What a absolute HOOT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!



........ Phil

At least he wasn't raised by dingoes.

ian field wrote:

"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...

"Chairman Of The Asinine ****wits"


One IS hooked up as a transistor, the other is being used as a diode.


** ROTFLMAO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What a ****ing HOOT !!!

Autism central.



Better than you being the utter retard that called it "the MEX190".



** So the dumb**** ASS is BLIND as well.


What a absolute HOOT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!



........ Phil

At least he wasn't raised by dingoes.

Shame he wasn't eaten by one.

--
Paul Hovnanian
------------------------------------------------------------------
There is no place like 127.0.0.1

ChairmanOfTheBored wrote in
:

On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 13:54:02 +1000, "Phil Allison"
wrote:



One IS hooked up as a transistor, the other is being used as a
diode.

Sorry to say no, there is a lifted bond on the base of the right die,
there is die attach material on three of the bond wires, the emitter
post wedge bonds are crossed over. The other base bond overlaps an
emitter finger.

And I'll be generous and claim that the kinks in the bond wires were
due to poor delidding technique.

I perform Destructive Physical Analysis on high reliability
semiconductors regularly.

This device fails DPA, big time...

Thanks for the pics, Phil, that's gotta go on the lab wall...
Your other pic of the FET is beautiful,

--
Bob Quintal

PA is y I've altered my email address.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

"Bob Quintal"


Sorry to say no, there is a lifted bond on the base of the right die,
there is die attach material on three of the bond wires, the emitter
post wedge bonds are crossed over. The other base bond overlaps an
emitter finger.

And I'll be generous and claim that the kinks in the bond wires were
due to poor delidding technique.


** So you missed the white silicone all over everything ??

Both chips were hidden under a blob of white, which I had to remove best as
possible with a jeweller's driver.

Hence the detached base wire.

BTW

The device passed basic tests like Vce, Hfe and Ic sat prior to being
opened.



....... Phil

"Phil Allison" wrote in
:


"Bob Quintal"


Sorry to say no, there is a lifted bond on the base of the right
die, there is die attach material on three of the bond wires, the
emitter post wedge bonds are crossed over. The other base bond
overlaps an emitter finger.

And I'll be generous and claim that the kinks in the bond wires
were due to poor delidding technique.


** So you missed the white silicone all over everything ??

I did say "there is die attach material on three of the bond wires",
It quite possibly is white silicone RTV. Not having see the specimen
prior to removal of the silicone, I wasn't sure what the stuff was.
BTW silicone products are usually forbidden inside of hermetic
packages, because the gasses they emit, even after curing, are known
to etch metalization from die.

And I apologize, about Poor delidding technique, With silicone
gooped over everything, it would be impossible to decapsulate the
device without mangling the bonds.


Both chips were hidden under a blob of white, which I had to
remove best as possible with a jeweller's driver.

Hence the detached base wire.

I apologize about poor delidding technique, With silicone gooped
over everything, it would be impossible to decapsulate the device
without mangling the bonds.


BTW

The device passed basic tests like Vce, Hfe and Ic sat prior to
being opened.

I've seen things like that, where the transistor met electrical
specifications, but everybody who saw it was incredulous that it
worked at all.


...... Phil

--
Bob Quintal

PA is y I've altered my email address.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

"ian field" wrote in
:


"Bob Quintal" wrote in message
...
"Phil Allison" wrote in
:


"Bob Quintal"


Sorry to say no, there is a lifted bond on the base of the
right die, there is die attach material on three of the bond
wires, the emitter post wedge bonds are crossed over. The other
base bond overlaps an emitter finger.

And I'll be generous and claim that the kinks in the bond wires
were due to poor delidding technique.


** So you missed the white silicone all over everything ??

I did say "there is die attach material on three of the bond
wires", It quite possibly is white silicone RTV. Not having see
the specimen prior to removal of the silicone, I wasn't sure what
the stuff was. BTW silicone products are usually forbidden inside
of hermetic packages, because the gasses they emit, even after
curing, are known to etch metalization from die.

Dow-Corning for one, make silicone sealant for electrical
applications which does not emit acetic acid as it cures.

Those are usually grey or red in color. And quite expensive.

--
Bob Quintal

PA is y I've altered my email address.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

"Bob Quintal" wrote in message
...
"Phil Allison" wrote in
:


"Bob Quintal"


Sorry to say no, there is a lifted bond on the base of the right
die, there is die attach material on three of the bond wires, the
emitter post wedge bonds are crossed over. The other base bond
overlaps an emitter finger.

And I'll be generous and claim that the kinks in the bond wires
were due to poor delidding technique.


** So you missed the white silicone all over everything ??

I did say "there is die attach material on three of the bond wires",
It quite possibly is white silicone RTV. Not having see the specimen
prior to removal of the silicone, I wasn't sure what the stuff was.
BTW silicone products are usually forbidden inside of hermetic
packages, because the gasses they emit, even after curing, are known
to etch metalization from die.

Dow-Corning for one, make silicone sealant for electrical applications which
does not emit acetic acid as it cures.

"Bob Quintal" wrote in message
...
"ian field" wrote in
:


"Bob Quintal" wrote in message
...
"Phil Allison" wrote in
:


"Bob Quintal"


Sorry to say no, there is a lifted bond on the base of the
right die, there is die attach material on three of the bond
wires, the emitter post wedge bonds are crossed over. The other
base bond overlaps an emitter finger.

And I'll be generous and claim that the kinks in the bond wires
were due to poor delidding technique.


** So you missed the white silicone all over everything ??

I did say "there is die attach material on three of the bond
wires", It quite possibly is white silicone RTV. Not having see
the specimen prior to removal of the silicone, I wasn't sure what
the stuff was. BTW silicone products are usually forbidden inside
of hermetic packages, because the gasses they emit, even after
curing, are known to etch metalization from die.

Dow-Corning for one, make silicone sealant for electrical
applications which does not emit acetic acid as it cures.

Those are usually grey or red in color. And quite expensive.

The Dow Corning product I've used was translucent, I've no doubt its
probably available in as many different colours as the stuff they sell in
building suppliers.

Did this part exhibit degraded performance due to the broken connection
(I think that's the base) or just cut it open for kicks?

--
Paul Hovnanian
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The blinking cursor writes; and having writ, blinks on.

Bob Quintal posted to
alt.binaries.schematics.electronic:

"ian field" wrote in
:


"Bob Quintal" wrote in message
...
"Phil Allison" wrote in
:


"Bob Quintal"


Sorry to say no, there is a lifted bond on the base of the
right die, there is die attach material on three of the bond
wires, the emitter post wedge bonds are crossed over. The other
base bond overlaps an emitter finger.

And I'll be generous and claim that the kinks in the bond wires
were due to poor delidding technique.


** So you missed the white silicone all over everything ??

I did say "there is die attach material on three of the bond
wires", It quite possibly is white silicone RTV. Not having see
the specimen prior to removal of the silicone, I wasn't sure what
the stuff was. BTW silicone products are usually forbidden inside
of hermetic packages, because the gasses they emit, even after
curing, are known to etch metalization from die.

Dow-Corning for one, make silicone sealant for electrical
applications which does not emit acetic acid as it cures.

Those are usually grey or red in color. And quite expensive.


Clear thixotropic formulations are available, but expensive compared
to grey.

ChairmanOfTheBored wrote in
:

On 25 Aug 2007 15:27:13 GMT, Bob Quintal
wrote:


I did say "there is die attach material on three of the bond
wires",


The silicone blob is NOT "die attach material", it is
"encapsulation
media".

Yes I know, but viewing the picture in my newsreader I could not note
the difference. Saving and opening the photo in IrfanView revealed much
more detail.


--
Bob Quintal

PA is y I've altered my email address.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

ChairmanOfTheBored wrote in
:


Anybody can do macro photography, even if, as is in Phil's case,
they
only have half a brain.

Go away! Don't go away mad, just go away.


--
Bob Quintal

PA is y I've altered my email address.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

ChairmanOfTheBored wrote in
:

On 25 Aug 2007 15:42:47 GMT, Bob Quintal
wrote:

"ian field" wrote in
:


"Bob Quintal" wrote in message
...
"Phil Allison" wrote in
:


"Bob Quintal"


Sorry to say no, there is a lifted bond on the base of the
right die, there is die attach material on three of the bond
wires, the emitter post wedge bonds are crossed over. The
other base bond overlaps an emitter finger.

And I'll be generous and claim that the kinks in the bond
wires were due to poor delidding technique.


** So you missed the white silicone all over everything ??

I did say "there is die attach material on three of the bond
wires", It quite possibly is white silicone RTV. Not having see
the specimen prior to removal of the silicone, I wasn't sure
what the stuff was. BTW silicone products are usually forbidden
inside of hermetic packages, because the gasses they emit, even
after curing, are known to etch metalization from die.

Dow-Corning for one, make silicone sealant for electrical
applications which does not emit acetic acid as it cures.

Those are usually grey or red in color. And quite expensive.


Nonetheless, that IS what the ENTIRE industry uses.

I am quite confident that the industry that produce these devices
did not use the good stuff..


--
Bob Quintal

PA is y I've altered my email address.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

"ChairmanOfTheBored" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 25 Aug 2007 23:47:31 +1000, "Phil Allison"
wrote:


"Bob Quintal"


Sorry to say no, there is a lifted bond on the base of the right die,
there is die attach material on three of the bond wires, the emitter
post wedge bonds are crossed over. The other base bond overlaps an
emitter finger.

And I'll be generous and claim that the kinks in the bond wires were
due to poor delidding technique.


** So you missed the white silicone all over everything ??

Both chips were hidden under a blob of white, which I had to remove best
as
possible with a jeweller's driver.

Ever heard of the application of HEAT, idiot?

There are several common solvents that silicone sealer can be soaked in to
make it swell up and easy to break off in chunks.

"ChairmanOfTheBored" wrote in message

On 25 Aug 2007 15:27:13 GMT, Bob Quintal
wrote:


And I apologize, about Poor delidding technique, With silicone
gooped over everything, it would be impossible to decapsulate the
device without mangling the bonds.


Both chips were hidden under a blob of white, which I had to
remove best as possible with a jeweller's driver.

Hence the detached base wire.

I apologize about poor delidding technique, With silicone gooped
over everything, it would be impossible to decapsulate the device
without mangling the bonds.


Redundant, WRONG twit! He didn't break ANY bonds during the
"de-lidding". If you had read it, he did it during the "de-blobbing".

That's what Bob just said, except that he used "decapsulate" instead of
"de-blob".


--

Reply in group, but if emailing add another
zero, and remove the last word.

ChairmanOfTheBored wrote in
:

**** off! Don't **** off like the retard you are... just ****
off.

If you got a life, you would not be so bored. But getting a life
requires more intelligence than a bacterium.

--
Bob Quintal

PA is y I've altered my email address.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

ChairmanOfTheBored wrote in
:

Did anyone open the authentic Motorola product to verify its
construction? No? Then **** OFF!

Well I HAVE opened several MP15003 devices in the last 30 years, and
this aint one of em.

How do you know it isn't a Darlington set-up on a single die,

A very cursory glance at the bond wires is all I need to see that
these are two transistors in parallel, not in Darlington
configuration.

and this
one is there Polynesian version of the same thing?

Even if there were a Malasian or Philipine version, I can assure you
that there os no way that this is one of them.

How do you
know it isn't an authentic part unless you have an authentic part
to compare it with?

I've probably opened and examined 10,000 semiconductor devices and
ICs in my career.

Knowing the specification of the device and 30 years of analysing
transistors tell me that it is definitely a counterfeit.

--
Bob Quintal

PA is y I've altered my email address.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

ChairmanOfTheBored wrote in
:


That's what Bob just said, except that he used "decapsulate"
instead of "de-blob".


The WRONG part was where he called it "die attach material".

Not having seen the device before Phil carved the goop off, and never
in 30 years having seen a transistor buried in RTV in the way mr
Allison described, I called it the most likely name.

Also, "de-capsulate" is a hyphenated word.

The US Department of Defense says "Go **** yourself with your silly
little hyphen, and get a life": See MIL-STD-1580B

Since you are so lifeless and bored, you might find it interesting.

--
Bob Quintal

PA is y I've altered my email address.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

"Chairman Of The ****wits "


Both chips were hidden under a blob of white, which I had to remove best
as
possible with a jeweller's driver.

Ever heard of the application of HEAT, idiot?


** Silicone has a very high resistance to heat - that is why it is used
for that job.

Probably melt the chip before the silicone gave up.


The device passed basic tests like Vce, Hfe and Ic sat prior to being
opened.


More proof of your lack of skill.


** Proves the opposite, basis specs were within published figures for the
type.

Only the counterfeiters HAD to parallel two chips to get them !!

Shortcomings would show up in an SOA test, which I simply did not do and
could not do after opening & damaging the device.

Multiple reports of repeated failures in amplifier use, when under load,
prove the point.


........ Phil

ChairmanOfTheBored wrote:

Looks to me like a design upgrade. The Mot part is from '92, and the
other two are from 2000, and 2001 respectively. Did anyone check to see
if they are not just licensed product from an alternate manufacturer?

You couldn't be much stupider if you tried.

Graham

ChairmanOfTheBored wrote:

flipper wrote:

How about by noticing that the MJ15003
datasheet says it's a 20A, 140V, 250W NPN power transistor with Hfe=25
(min) at 5A and not a Darlington?

How about showing me ANY 250W part that fits into such a package. Then,
while you are at it, show me how the smaller die part in your link is a
pic of a 250W part.

I've opened up MJ15003/4s for comparisons and Motorola / On Semi have no trouble
fitting a genuine single 250W die into a TO-3 can.

In my case the suspect devices were made by (or marked as ) MOSPEC and the dies
were barely half the size of the genuine part. Needless to say, the MOSPEC parts
failed rapidly (during test).


Graham

ChairmanOfTheBored wrote:

flipper wrote:

His photo of the lid also has the classic miss marking of MEXICO as
MEX190 and the bogus 9H34 date code is straight from the known fakes
list.

9H34 is a valid date code of the 34th week of '98. An H is the eighth
letter of the alphabet.

Irrelevant since Motorola no longer made these parts at that time, having sold
on the line to On Semiconductor.

You're a bit clueless aren't you ?

Graham

ChairmanOfTheBored wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
ChairmanOfTheBored wrote:
flipper wrote:

His photo of the lid also has the classic miss marking of MEXICO as
MEX190 and the bogus 9H34 date code is straight from the known fakes
list.

9H34 is a valid date code of the 34th week of '98. An H is the eighth
letter of the alphabet.

Irrelevant since Motorola no longer made these parts at that time, having sold
on the line to On Semiconductor.

You're a bit clueless aren't you ?

Hmmm... perhaps that's why the can was marked ON, dip****.

The fake / counterfeit was marked with the MOTOROLA logo you ignorant blind ****.

Graham

"Bob Quintal"

I've probably opened and examined 10,000 semiconductor devices and
ICs in my career.


** Strewth - I thought I was bad having opened up a couple of hundred !!


Knowing the specification of the device and 30 years of analysing
transistors tell me that it is definitely a counterfeit.


** Everything about that two chip MJ15003 is 100 % wrong !!!!!!!!

It was eventually recalled ( and a bunch of other fakes too ) by the store
that sold it to me.


BTW:

All the Darlington power BJTs I have ever seen use ONE chip.

The driver is tucked away in a corner.




....... Phil

"Chairman Of The ****wits "


** Silicone has a very high resistance to heat - that is why it is used
for that job.

Idiot. Heating silicone makes it MORE pliable,


** ROTFL !!

Shame that don't make it et go of what it is stuck to !!


Probably melt the chip before the silicone gave up.

Bull**** Silicone melts at fairly low temps.


** Like hell it does.

A soldering iron tip , at 400 C, has almost no effect.,


Silicon melts at over
700C, you clueless ****head.


** Shame how a BJT chip is permanently damaged, in seconds by a temp of 250
C.

By 350C it would be a blob of silicon.


Picking at it with a jeweler's screwdriver


** Its what anyone, curious to see the chips would do.

I kept that one device as evidence.

The supplier was not likely to act responsibly about the matter.

Fraid any returned, unused device would simply be sold on to others.



......... Phil

"Phil Allison" wrote in
:


"Bob Quintal"

I've probably opened and examined 10,000 semiconductor devices
and ICs in my career.


** Strewth - I thought I was bad having opened up a couple of
hundred !!

We build spacecraft. Every lot of parts destined for space gets
subject to DPA as part of the incoming inspection process. Not only
do we examine them optically, they often go through the Scanning
Electron Microscope. (SEM)

Here is an interesting document
http://nepp.nasa.gov/nepag/info/misc...DPA_Report.pdf


Knowing the specification of the device and 30 years of analysing
transistors tell me that it is definitely a counterfeit.


** Everything about that two chip MJ15003 is 100 % wrong
!!!!!!!!

It was eventually recalled ( and a bunch of other fakes too ) by
the store
that sold it to me.

Counterfeit devices has recently become a serious problem as people
are trying to obtain repair parts of devices no longer in production
for military gear that is 20 to 30 years old.

BTW:

All the Darlington power BJTs I have ever seen use ONE chip.

The driver is tucked away in a corner.


...... Phil












--
Bob Quintal

PA is y I've altered my email address.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

ChairmanOfTheBored wrote in
:

On Sat, 25 Aug 2007 16:51:38 -0500, flipper
wrote:

How do you know it
isn't an authentic part unless you have an authentic part to
compare it with?

Because, for one, MJ15003/4 double headed fakes is a well known
parts counterfeiting issue and a genuine MJ15003/4 is a single
die.

His photo of the lid also has the classic miss marking of MEXICO
as MEX190 and the bogus 9H34 date code is straight from the known
fakes list.


Which are you claiming are the fakes?

Can't be the second two, as they do not even sport the Motorola
logo. To
be fakes, they would need to do so. So you must be claiming that
the first item is the fake.

The pic Flipper posted shows 3 legitimate partsa. Compare against
the photos that Mr Allison posted, for the counterfeit.

Looks to me like a design upgrade. The Mot part is from '92, and
the
other two are from 2000, and 2001 respectively. Did anyone check
to see if they are not just licensed product from an alternate
manufacturer?

The two more recent parts are labeled ON Semoiconductor, which is
the new name for what used to be Motorola.

They look beefier. Certainly the same fab process, merely a
bigger die
size. Same hardware... same hermetic seal... Why go through the
trouble to make such a copy, when your COM is so high that you
would only make money on a viable product result?

The die size of the main die (mushroom shaped) is identical in the
three devices, the smaller die, which is the second transistor (the
white one) differs because they are three different transistor
types.


--
Bob Quintal

PA is y I've altered my email address.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

ChairmanOfTheBored wrote in
:

On Sat, 25 Aug 2007 16:51:38 -0500, flipper
wrote:

You mean besides observing the wire bonds and noticing it isn't a
Darlington connection?

How can you even tell that when he broke some of the bonds,
dip****?

Any person with a life can see the footprint of the one lifted bond on
the die. I even commented on the fact that it was misplaced and was
crossing the emitter-base junction

If you got a life, you would not be so bored, and boring.


--
Bob Quintal

PA is y I've altered my email address.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

ChairmanOfTheBored wrote in
:

On Sun, 26 Aug 2007 06:03:55 +0100, Eeyore
wrote:



ChairmanOfTheBored wrote:

flipper wrote:

His photo of the lid also has the classic miss marking of
MEXICO as MEX190 and the bogus 9H34 date code is straight from
the known fakes list.

9H34 is a valid date code of the 34th week of '98. An H is
the eighth
letter of the alphabet.

Irrelevant since Motorola no longer made these parts at that time,
having sold on the line to On Semiconductor.

You're a bit clueless aren't you ?

Graham

Hmmm... perhaps that's why the can was marked ON, dip****.

Get a life, learn how to read.


--
Bob Quintal

PA is y I've altered my email address.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

"Bob Quintal"
" Phil Allison"


All the Darlington power BJTs I have ever seen use ONE chip.

The driver is tucked away in a corner.



** As in this example, (see jpegs) from the early 1980s.

A TIC brand " MJ15004 " coded " 8024" for the 24th week of 1980.

BTW:

TIC = " Transistor Instrument Corporation " of Florida USA.

A totally ** CRIMINAL ** operation.

The SEPTIC ****S just relabelled any damn PIECE of **** they picked
up from the local garbage dump as being the same type some dumb as some ****
FOREIGN customer ordered.

In this case it was the famous " Dick Smith Electronics " of Australia -
who purchased some 30,000 of them, in several batches over a period of a
year or so.

Stuffed them into 300 watt amp kits, sold them as spares to kit builders
and also to repair techs.

Never had to take one single one back.

What a bunch of ****ing ****S !!!!!





....... Phil

ChairmanOfTheBored wrote:

Element names are capitalized

Utter nonsense.

"ChairmanOfTheBored" wrote
Element names are capitalized, PhilTard.

Wrong again, you ****ing retard.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/chlorine

Also, do you capitalise "water", or "gravy"? What about "steel"?

Your ****tardedness in this thread has been spectacular. Phil
posted a very interesting thread and you've used it as a reason
to indulge your tardhibitionism - to very good effect, I admit,
but we'd rather read some interesting stuff from people who know
what time it is, like Phil and Bob Quintal, rather than you, who
know SFA about it.

You really are becoming tiresome in this thread. Shut the hell up
and leave it to those who know. ****ing darlington, indeed! I know
SFA about electronics, not having had it as an active hobby since I
was a teenager 20 years ago, and even I know that that was a ****ing
hoot.

You're a ****ing nozzlehead.


HTH.


Martin
--
M.A.Poyser Tel.: 07967 110890
Manchester, U.K. http://www.livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=fleetie