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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#1
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Mains 10-way socket,causing power cuts?
Hi there,
Recently I installed a maplin 10-way plug extender, with surge protection. Cost £24.99 and was the only one that had 10 sockets, which i use, but not all at once. Anyway, it said on the box 'don't plug directly into the mains' - i take it that means the main mains power source in the house, i've plugged it into a socket in my room - has a few bits and bobs. I'll be honest, it says 'dont have more than 13amps on it' plug-wise, i've prob got more than that.... Today i was hoovering through *another*socket in my room, and we had a power-cut, i think it was in the entire house but i can't tell as nothing was 'on' that would indicate so, but everything in my room cut out. I don't want to blow up the house, but surely if it says 10-way socket expander it *should* be ok, even with more than 13amps going through it? It's a comptuer, video,tv,printer,monitoramplifier and a couple of other minor things like wireless router. I don't want to damage the house. Indicentilly, we had one 4 way extender plugged into another one that was plugged into the wall, and it's been fine for 2 years - but i finally realised how dangerous it potentially was and thought i should splash out. Maplin only sell the one 10-way extender, the rest are either 2,4 or 6, which wasn't enough. Any suggestions/help anyone? Cheers! |
#2
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"Goo Goo" wrote in message
... Hi there, Recently I installed a maplin 10-way plug extender, with surge protection. Cost £24.99 and was the only one that had 10 sockets, which i use, but not all at once. Anyway, it said on the box 'don't plug directly into the mains' - i take it that means the main mains power source in the house, i've plugged it into a socket in my room - has a few bits and bobs. I'll be honest, it says 'dont have more than 13amps on it' plug-wise, i've prob got more than that.... Today i was hoovering through *another*socket in my room, and we had a power-cut, i think it was in the entire house but i can't tell as nothing was 'on' that would indicate so, but everything in my room cut out. I don't want to blow up the house, but surely if it says 10-way socket expander it *should* be ok, even with more than 13amps going through it? It's a comptuer, video,tv,printer,monitoramplifier and a couple of other minor things like wireless router. I don't want to damage the house. Indicentilly, we had one 4 way extender plugged into another one that was plugged into the wall, and it's been fine for 2 years - but i finally realised how dangerous it potentially was and thought i should splash out. Maplin only sell the one 10-way extender, the rest are either 2,4 or 6, which wasn't enough. Any suggestions/help anyone? http://tinyurl.com/4k6qj is the item - for all those who wish to have a look....cheers! |
#3
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Goo Goo wrote:
Today i was hoovering through *another*socket in my room, and we had a power-cut, i think it was in the entire house but i can't tell as nothing was 'on' that would indicate so, but everything in my room cut out. What do you mean by a power cut? Why can't you tell what was cut - are you saying the power came back on by itself? I don't want to blow up the house, but surely if it says 10-way socket expander it *should* be ok, even with more than 13amps going through it? Er - why would you think that?!! It's a comptuer, video,tv,printer,monitoramplifier and a couple of other minor things like wireless router. What other "minor things"? That doesn't sound like 13A so far - where do you get that figure from? David |
#4
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"Lobster" wrote in message
... Goo Goo wrote: Today i was hoovering through *another*socket in my room, and we had a power-cut, i think it was in the entire house but i can't tell as nothing was 'on' that would indicate so, but everything in my room cut out. What do you mean by a power cut? Why can't you tell what was cut - are you saying the power came back on by itself? I don't want to blow up the house, but surely if it says 10-way socket expander it *should* be ok, even with more than 13amps going through it? Er - why would you think that?!! It's a comptuer, video,tv,printer,monitoramplifier and a couple of other minor things like wireless router. What other "minor things"? That doesn't sound like 13A so far - where do you get that figure from? By a power-cut i mean everything went off in the room i was in, the hoover on the one socket itself, and the 8/9/10 sockets on the mains-extender which was plugged into a socket the opposite side of the room. Then everything came back on. Later on the computer restarted twice, along with other items powerong off then back on, so i believe the extender to be the cause. Also, i don't know what you're thinking of, but how can 13 amps not be achieved already?! A monitor has a high-fuse, along with the amplifier surely, and the television. In fact it would be **** easy to go way over the 13a thresh-hold. If you think about it there's actually a far higher chance of attaching 10 items to it and going over 13amps than NOT going over it - you could have no items rated at 13amps, one at 3 amps, and nine items at 1amp - that's a bit ****e isn't it? It's the only 10-way-extender i saw in maplin and 2 other electrical-specific-parts retailers, so i guess that is why. |
#5
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On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 18:16:57 GMT, "Goo Goo" strung
together this: By a power-cut i mean everything went off in the room i was in, the hoover on the one socket itself, and the 8/9/10 sockets on the mains-extender which was plugged into a socket the opposite side of the room. Then everything came back on. Nothing to do with the mains extender then, if the hover was in another socket then it can't be that. Nothing, (unless you have some rare industrial control system as a CU), will be in your wiring to automatically reset the fuses\MCB's in your CU. Later on the computer restarted twice, along with other items powerong off then back on, so i believe the extender to be the cause. Anything else in the house? Also, i don't know what you're thinking of, but how can 13 amps not be achieved already?! A monitor has a high-fuse, along with the amplifier surely, and the television. In fact it would be **** easy to go way over the 13a thresh-hold. If you think about it there's actually a far higher chance of attaching 10 items to it and going over 13amps than NOT going over it - you could have no items rated at 13amps, one at 3 amps, and nine items at 1amp - that's a bit ****e isn't it? What? I think you've got the wrong end of the stick. If an appliance has a 3A fuse, it means it draws less than 3A, could be 0.001A. I've got a TV, amplifier, CD player, DVD player, various other boxes of musical orign, 2 STB's and a Quattro switcher. I haven't got it to 3A yet. If I add a PC I still won't be anywhere near 13A. You need to check the actual rating of all the appliances you have plugged in, not the fuse sizes. -- SJW Please reply to group or use 'usenet' in email subject |
#6
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Goo Goo wrote:
"Lobster" wrote in message ... Goo Goo wrote: Today i was hoovering through *another*socket in my room, and we had a power-cut, i think it was in the entire house but i can't tell as nothing was 'on' that would indicate so, but everything in my room cut out. What do you mean by a power cut? Why can't you tell what was cut - are you saying the power came back on by itself? I don't want to blow up the house, but surely if it says 10-way socket expander it *should* be ok, even with more than 13amps going through it? Er - why would you think that?!! It's a comptuer, video,tv,printer,monitoramplifier and a couple of other minor things like wireless router. What other "minor things"? That doesn't sound like 13A so far - where do you get that figure from? By a power-cut i mean everything went off in the room i was in, the hoover on the one socket itself, and the 8/9/10 sockets on the mains-extender which was plugged into a socket the opposite side of the room. Then everything came back on. Later on the computer restarted twice, along with other items powerong off then back on, so i believe the extender to be the cause. Also, i don't know what you're thinking of, but how can 13 amps not be achieved already?! A monitor has a high-fuse, along with the amplifier surely, and the television. In fact it would be **** easy to go way over the 13a thresh-hold. If you think about it there's actually a far higher chance of attaching 10 items to it and going over 13amps than NOT going over it - you could have no items rated at 13amps, one at 3 amps, and nine items at 1amp - that's a bit ****e isn't it? It's the only 10-way-extender i saw in maplin and 2 other electrical-specific-parts retailers, so i guess that is why. What the feck are you on? Just because you have a 13,10 or 3 amp fuse DOES NOT MEAN the item will draw that current. The fuse just protects the cable from overload. To find the current drawn, have a look on the back of your equipment and read the plate where the voltage and current will be specified. |
#7
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"Lurch" wrote in message
... What? I think you've got the wrong end of the stick. If an appliance has a 3A fuse, it means it draws less than 3A, could be 0.001A. I've got a TV, amplifier, CD player, DVD player, various other boxes of musical orign, 2 STB's and a Quattro switcher. I haven't got it to 3A yet. If I add a PC I still won't be anywhere near 13A. You need to check the actual rating of all the appliances you have plugged in, not the fuse sizes. Oh well apologies to the aforementioned poster! I was told to check the fuse by a maplin attendant! It was a bird tho, so maybe that's why.... har har, just kidding ladies... I don't know how to check the 'amps' of the appliances, the back labels say nothing relevant! I have a freeview box, a small portable television, a video recorder, a printer, 19inch computer monitor, high spec PC (medium wattage im guessing) an amplifier, a light, and a wireless router. All ten sockets are used up... i'd guess 13amps are well used up? |
#8
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"Andrew Chesters" wrote in message
... What the feck are you on? Hardcore drugs... Just because you have a 13,10 or 3 amp fuse DOES NOT MEAN the item will draw that current. The fuse just protects the cable from overload. To find the current drawn, have a look on the back of your equipment and read the plate where the voltage and current will be specified. The back of the video says 67w... No 'maximum amps used: 500 mAmps' like on the printer adapter.... Argh so rubbish and hard |
#9
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"Andrew Chesters" wrote in message ... Goo Goo wrote: "Lobster" wrote in message ... Goo Goo wrote: Today i was hoovering through *another*socket in my room, and we had a power-cut, i think it was in the entire house but i can't tell as nothing was 'on' that would indicate so, but everything in my room cut out. What do you mean by a power cut? Why can't you tell what was cut - are you saying the power came back on by itself? I don't want to blow up the house, but surely if it says 10-way socket expander it *should* be ok, even with more than 13amps going through it? Er - why would you think that?!! It's a comptuer, video,tv,printer,monitoramplifier and a couple of other minor things like wireless router. What other "minor things"? That doesn't sound like 13A so far - where do you get that figure from? By a power-cut i mean everything went off in the room i was in, the hoover on the one socket itself, and the 8/9/10 sockets on the mains-extender which was plugged into a socket the opposite side of the room. Then everything came back on. Later on the computer restarted twice, along with other items powerong off then back on, so i believe the extender to be the cause. Also, i don't know what you're thinking of, but how can 13 amps not be achieved already?! A monitor has a high-fuse, along with the amplifier surely, and the television. In fact it would be **** easy to go way over the 13a thresh-hold. If you think about it there's actually a far higher chance of attaching 10 items to it and going over 13amps than NOT going over it - you could have no items rated at 13amps, one at 3 amps, and nine items at 1amp - that's a bit ****e isn't it? It's the only 10-way-extender i saw in maplin and 2 other electrical-specific-parts retailers, so i guess that is why. What the feck are you on? Just because you have a 13,10 or 3 amp fuse DOES NOT MEAN the item will draw that current. The fuse just protects the cable from overload. To find the current drawn, have a look on the back of your equipment and read the plate where the voltage and current will be specified. Did the OP say another socket in the room went off ? Implies something loose in the back of the one with the 10 way in it (and the other one being a spur off it, not off the ring) |
#10
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"brugnospamsia" wrote in message
. uk... It's the only 10-way-extender i saw in maplin and 2 other electrical-specific-parts retailers, so i guess that is why. What the feck are you on? Just because you have a 13,10 or 3 amp fuse DOES NOT MEAN the item will draw that current. The fuse just protects the cable from overload. To find the current drawn, have a look on the back of your equipment and read the plate where the voltage and current will be specified. Did the OP say another socket in the room went off ? Implies something loose in the back of the one with the 10 way in it (and the other one being a spur off it, not off the ring) I am the OP :-D Excellent. I was wondering how the sockets were wired up.... it's an old house as well, and the sockets are blatently old. I may get an electrician in; although it's possible the neighbourhood had a powercut a few times during the day - but unlikely i'd suggest. |
#11
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Goo Goo wrote:
"Andrew Chesters" wrote in message ... What the feck are you on? Hardcore drugs... Just because you have a 13,10 or 3 amp fuse DOES NOT MEAN the item will draw that current. The fuse just protects the cable from overload. To find the current drawn, have a look on the back of your equipment and read the plate where the voltage and current will be specified. The back of the video says 67w... No 'maximum amps used: 500 mAmps' like on the printer adapter.... Argh so rubbish and hard Watts = Volts x Amps therefore Watts divided by Volts is Amps Assuming you are in the UK, 67 / 240 = 0.28 Amps |
#12
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"Goo Goo" wrote in message ... "Andrew Chesters" wrote in message ... What the feck are you on? Hardcore drugs... Just because you have a 13,10 or 3 amp fuse DOES NOT MEAN the item will draw that current. The fuse just protects the cable from overload. To find the current drawn, have a look on the back of your equipment and read the plate where the voltage and current will be specified. The back of the video says 67w... No 'maximum amps used: 500 mAmps' like on the printer adapter.... Argh so rubbish and hard The bottom line is all the electrical energy you get from a socket turns into heat in the room. 13 amps is over 3KW - which you'd probably notice. The one exceptional circumstance is the switch on surge of electric motors etc. 3 fridges on the thing /might/ blow a fuse if you switched the 10 way on with all 3 plugged in. The key thing here is it DIDN'T blow a fuse. What I would do is plug something robust into the 10 way and the other socket - a couple of lamps maybe ... and pull on the 10 way slightly. As I said in my other post, It's my guess the wires in the back of the socket are loose. You don't sound very /au fait/ with things electrical so I'd advise you get someone else to take a look at it (and maybe the rest of your wiring) |
#13
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Goo Goo wrote:
The back of the video says 67w... No 'maximum amps used: 500 mAmps' like on the printer adapter.... Argh so rubbish and hard Current = Power/Voltage = 67W/240V = 0.28A (ie 280 mA) David |
#14
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"Goo Goo" wrote in message ... "Andrew Chesters" wrote in message ... What the feck are you on? Hardcore drugs... Just because you have a 13,10 or 3 amp fuse DOES NOT MEAN the item will draw that current. The fuse just protects the cable from overload. To find the current drawn, have a look on the back of your equipment and read the plate where the voltage and current will be specified. The back of the video says 67w... No 'maximum amps used: 500 mAmps' like on the printer adapter.... Argh so rubbish and hard Watts=Volts X Amps So that 67w appliance takes about .3 amps |
#15
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"brugnospamsia" wrote in message . uk... SNIP The bottom line is all the electrical energy you get from a socket turns into heat in the room. 13 amps is over 3KW - which you'd probably notice. sorry that was a bit fuzzy but I'm ready for an early night :-) SNIP |
#16
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In message , Goo Goo
wrote I have a freeview box, 10 Watts a small portable television, 200 Watts a video recorder, 30 Watts a printer, 20 Watts 19inch computer monitor, 200 Watts (maximum) high spec PC (medium wattage im guessing) 350 Watts (maximum) an amplifier, Probably less than 100 Watts a light, Probably less than 100 Watts and a wireless router. 30 Watts All ten sockets are used up... i'd guess 13amps are well used up? Nowhere near! Probably a total of just over 1000 Watts if everything was switched on - or around 4 to 5 Amps. The handbook for each piece of equipment should give the power usage figure -- Alan |
#17
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"Goo Goo" wrote in message ... "brugnospamsia" wrote in message . uk... It's the only 10-way-extender i saw in maplin and 2 other electrical-specific-parts retailers, so i guess that is why. What the feck are you on? Just because you have a 13,10 or 3 amp fuse DOES NOT MEAN the item will draw that current. The fuse just protects the cable from overload. To find the current drawn, have a look on the back of your equipment and read the plate where the voltage and current will be specified. Did the OP say another socket in the room went off ? Implies something loose in the back of the one with the 10 way in it (and the other one being a spur off it, not off the ring) I am the OP :-D Excellent. I was wondering how the sockets were wired up.... it's an old house as well, and the sockets are blatently old. I may get an electrician in; although it's possible the neighbourhood had a powercut a few times during the day - but unlikely i'd suggest. How old is old? Are they round pin or square? |
#18
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"Goo Goo" wrote in message ... "Lurch" wrote in message ... What? I think you've got the wrong end of the stick. If an appliance has a 3A fuse, it means it draws less than 3A, could be 0.001A. I've got a TV, amplifier, CD player, DVD player, various other boxes of musical orign, 2 STB's and a Quattro switcher. I haven't got it to 3A yet. If I add a PC I still won't be anywhere near 13A. You need to check the actual rating of all the appliances you have plugged in, not the fuse sizes. Oh well apologies to the aforementioned poster! I was told to check the fuse by a maplin attendant! It was a bird tho, so maybe that's why.... har har, just kidding ladies... Listen mate, you're in no postition to talk! |
#19
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"brugnospamsia" wrote in message . uk... "Andrew Chesters" wrote in message ... Goo Goo wrote: "Lobster" wrote in message ... Goo Goo wrote: Today i was hoovering through *another*socket in my room, and we had a power-cut, i think it was in the entire house but i can't tell as nothing was 'on' that would indicate so, but everything in my room cut out. What do you mean by a power cut? Why can't you tell what was cut - are you saying the power came back on by itself? I don't want to blow up the house, but surely if it says 10-way socket expander it *should* be ok, even with more than 13amps going through it? Er - why would you think that?!! It's a comptuer, video,tv,printer,monitoramplifier and a couple of other minor things like wireless router. What other "minor things"? That doesn't sound like 13A so far - where do you get that figure from? By a power-cut i mean everything went off in the room i was in, the hoover on the one socket itself, and the 8/9/10 sockets on the mains-extender which was plugged into a socket the opposite side of the room. Then everything came back on. Later on the computer restarted twice, along with other items powerong off then back on, so i believe the extender to be the cause. Also, i don't know what you're thinking of, but how can 13 amps not be achieved already?! A monitor has a high-fuse, along with the amplifier surely, and the television. In fact it would be **** easy to go way over the 13a thresh-hold. If you think about it there's actually a far higher chance of attaching 10 items to it and going over 13amps than NOT going over it - you could have no items rated at 13amps, one at 3 amps, and nine items at 1amp - that's a bit ****e isn't it? It's the only 10-way-extender i saw in maplin and 2 other electrical-specific-parts retailers, so i guess that is why. What the feck are you on? Just because you have a 13,10 or 3 amp fuse DOES NOT MEAN the item will draw that current. The fuse just protects the cable from overload. To find the current drawn, have a look on the back of your equipment and read the plate where the voltage and current will be specified. Did the OP say another socket in the room went off ? Implies something loose in the back of the one with the 10 way in it (and the other one being a spur off it, not off the ring) re-reading it, actually I bet it's the other way round - the hoover's probably plugged into the other socket on a regular basis and the cable gets tugged ... |
#20
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"brugnospamsia" wrote in message . uk... "Andrew Chesters" wrote in message ... Goo Goo wrote: "Lobster" wrote in message ... Goo Goo wrote: Today i was hoovering through *another*socket in my room, and we had a power-cut, i think it was in the entire house but i can't tell as nothing was 'on' that would indicate so, but everything in my room cut out. What do you mean by a power cut? Why can't you tell what was cut - are you saying the power came back on by itself? I don't want to blow up the house, but surely if it says 10-way socket expander it *should* be ok, even with more than 13amps going through it? Er - why would you think that?!! It's a comptuer, video,tv,printer,monitoramplifier and a couple of other minor things like wireless router. What other "minor things"? That doesn't sound like 13A so far - where do you get that figure from? By a power-cut i mean everything went off in the room i was in, the hoover on the one socket itself, and the 8/9/10 sockets on the mains-extender which was plugged into a socket the opposite side of the room. Then everything came back on. Later on the computer restarted twice, along with other items powerong off then back on, so i believe the extender to be the cause. Also, i don't know what you're thinking of, but how can 13 amps not be achieved already?! A monitor has a high-fuse, along with the amplifier surely, and the television. In fact it would be **** easy to go way over the 13a thresh-hold. If you think about it there's actually a far higher chance of attaching 10 items to it and going over 13amps than NOT going over it - you could have no items rated at 13amps, one at 3 amps, and nine items at 1amp - that's a bit ****e isn't it? It's the only 10-way-extender i saw in maplin and 2 other electrical-specific-parts retailers, so i guess that is why. What the feck are you on? Just because you have a 13,10 or 3 amp fuse DOES NOT MEAN the item will draw that current. The fuse just protects the cable from overload. To find the current drawn, have a look on the back of your equipment and read the plate where the voltage and current will be specified. Did the OP say another socket in the room went off ? Implies something loose in the back of the one with the 10 way in it (and the other one being a spur off it, not off the ring) re-reading it, actually I bet it's the other way round - the hoover's probably plugged into the other socket on a regular basis and the cable gets tugged ... |
#21
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"James Salisbury" wrote in message
... I was wondering how the sockets were wired up.... it's an old house as well, and the sockets are blatently old. I may get an electrician in; although it's possible the neighbourhood had a powercut a few times during the day - but unlikely i'd suggest. How old is old? Are they round pin or square? Round-ISH... i can just tell they're old, they're not the same design as modern mains sockets, and the switches aren't the same design as what i'd consider 'modern' plugs. |
#22
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"OG" wrote in message
... Listen mate, you're in no postition to talk! Wrong. I'm not your mate. |
#23
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Goo Goo wrote:
"OG" wrote in message ... Listen mate, you're in no postition to talk! Wrong. I'm not your mate. No, you're a clueless, ignorant clutz. |
#24
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"Goo Goo" wrote in message ... "James Salisbury" wrote in message ... I was wondering how the sockets were wired up.... it's an old house as well, and the sockets are blatently old. I may get an electrician in; although it's possible the neighbourhood had a powercut a few times during the day - but unlikely i'd suggest. How old is old? Are they round pin or square? Round-ISH... i can just tell they're old, they're not the same design as modern mains sockets, and the switches aren't the same design as what i'd consider 'modern' plugs. I suggest turning the mains master switch off and moving into an hotel until you get an electrician in. If you don't have the 'modern' style square pin sockets, the wiring is decades past its useful life and it is dangerous. Colin Bignell |
#26
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In article ,
Goo Goo wrote: A monitor has a high-fuse, along with the amplifier surely, and the television. In fact it would be **** easy to go way over the 13a thresh-hold. Not with the things you're likely to have plugged into it - computer type things, or hi-fi? But hint. All appliances have their power consumption marked on them somewhere. In watts. And to keep things simple, make 250 watts one amp - so something at 1000 watts would be 4 amps. If you think about it there's actually a far higher chance of attaching 10 items to it and going over 13amps than NOT going over it - you could have no items rated at 13amps, one at 3 amps, and nine items at 1amp - that's a bit ****e isn't it? Few computer or hi-fi things take anything like one amp. Many will be only a few watts. It's the only 10-way-extender i saw in maplin and 2 other electrical-specific-parts retailers, so i guess that is why. I've got two 6 way ones for my computer stuff - so 11 outlets - and am way under the 13 amp limit. Even more on the hi-fi. -- *To err is human. To forgive is against company policy. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#27
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"Andy Burns" wrote in message
... Goo Goo wrote: I'm not your mate. I think you'e rapidly becoming *nobody's* mate On a newsgroup full of geeks? Shame |
#28
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nightjar wrote:
"Goo Goo" wrote in message ... "James Salisbury" wrote in message ... I was wondering how the sockets were wired up.... it's an old house as well, and the sockets are blatently old. I may get an electrician in; although it's possible the neighbourhood had a powercut a few times during the day - but unlikely i'd suggest. How old is old? Are they round pin or square? Round-ISH... i can just tell they're old, they're not the same design as modern mains sockets, and the switches aren't the same design as what i'd consider 'modern' plugs. I suggest turning the mains master switch off and moving into an hotel until you get an electrician in. If you don't have the 'modern' style square pin sockets, the wiring is decades past its useful life and it is dangerous. Colin Bignell I suspect a different situation. There is no such thing as a roundish pin plug, not here, and the OP seems a bit short on basic electrical knowledge. Plug pins are either rectangular or round, or occasionally flat, but not roundish. I expect the OP has early square pin sockets, which have straight top and bottom and rounded sides, like this: (__) These can be as recent as 1980s, in which case theres no reason to worry, or they could date back to the 60s. The 3 copper metal pins on the mains plugs, the prongs that go into the wall socket holes, if /theyre/ round, Colin's right, and your install will be truly risky. Very very unlikely, but if the plugs only have 2 round metal pins instead of 3, leave now, that would be 1930s or earlier wiring, complete with the dreaded clix plugs. Otherwise I dont think anything youve told us indicates any cause for concern or need for an electrician. But I'm well aware that might not be the case: your info is so totally muddled its basically imposible to know whats going on. Poor lad doesnt even know what a power cut is. There is one thing you can easily do to spot problems, that is waggle all the mains flexes, plugs and so on. If it causes power to cut out you do need an electrician to fix something. Dont do it yourself, seriously, stick to the things you do know about. NT |
#29
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On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 23:15:50 GMT, "I.P.Freely" strung
together this: I'm not your mate. I think you'e rapidly becoming *nobody's* mate On a newsgroup full of geeks? Shame Well, that'll get you some helpful responses. -- SJW Please reply to group or use 'usenet' in email subject |
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