[Chade]

Hello,

A tree blew over and I've been chainsawing it up. I noticed it seems
to have some attractive heartwood.

http://tinyurl.com/4vnhr5t

I'm not much of a carpenter and while most of the tree, I think it was
a Lime, will be going for firewood I'd like to make something nice to
show. The only thought I've had so far is to polish a slice as a
clock. I'd like suggestions, and tips, as to what to do with it.
Whatever I did with it would I need to season it first to stop it from
cracking over time? If so how? My late friend used to try turning
bowls on his electric lathe but they always cracked.

[andrew]

Chade wrote:

Hello,

A tree blew over and I've been chainsawing it up. I noticed it seems
to have some attractive heartwood.

http://tinyurl.com/4vnhr5t

I'm not much of a carpenter and while most of the tree, I think it was
a Lime,

looks like a willow to me


will be going for firewood I'd like to make something nice to
show. The only thought I've had so far is to polish a slice as a
clock. I'd like suggestions, and tips, as to what to do with it.
Whatever I did with it would I need to season it first to stop it from
cracking over time? If so how?

The main reason wood cracks is because of differential shrinkage, the water
needs to leave the wood at the same rate it can migrate from the inside,
otherwise the inside stays swelled and the outside shrinks over it. The
other thing about differential shrinkage is that the cells change shape
more tangentially than radially ( and not a lot axially) so first step is
the quarter them.

Your logs have incipient rot and the green tinge suggests a bit of copper.

Willow has an initial moisture content of ~60%

AJH

[Graham.[_3_]]

"andrew" wrote in message ...
Chade wrote:

Hello,

A tree blew over and I've been chainsawing it up. I noticed it seems
to have some attractive heartwood.

http://tinyurl.com/4vnhr5t

I'm not much of a carpenter and while most of the tree, I think it was
a Lime,

looks like a willow to me


will be going for firewood I'd like to make something nice to
show. The only thought I've had so far is to polish a slice as a
clock. I'd like suggestions, and tips, as to what to do with it.
Whatever I did with it would I need to season it first to stop it from
cracking over time? If so how?

The main reason wood cracks is because of differential shrinkage, the water
needs to leave the wood at the same rate it can migrate from the inside,
otherwise the inside stays swelled and the outside shrinks over it. The
other thing about differential shrinkage is that the cells change shape
more tangentially than radially ( and not a lot axially) so first step is
the quarter them.

Your logs have incipient rot and the green tinge suggests a bit of copper.

Willow has an initial moisture content of ~60%

AJH
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRKVXG3DV-I

(sorry)

--
Graham.

%Profound_observation%

[Peter Crosland]

"Chade" wrote in message
...
Hello,

A tree blew over and I've been chainsawing it up. I noticed it seems
to have some attractive heartwood.

http://tinyurl.com/4vnhr5t

I'm not much of a carpenter and while most of the tree, I think it was
a Lime, will be going for firewood I'd like to make something nice to
show. The only thought I've had so far is to polish a slice as a
clock. I'd like suggestions, and tips, as to what to do with it.
Whatever I did with it would I need to season it first to stop it from
cracking over time? If so how? My late friend used to try turning
bowls on his electric lathe but they always cracked.

I agree that it looks like willow and it is in a pretty bad state. As a
firewood it will spit and crackle and produce lots of smoke. It is full of
moisture and even after seasoning will crack badly. The bottom line is
forget it!

Peter Crosland

[robgraham]

On Feb 6, 8:04*am, "Peter Crosland" wrote:
"Chade" wrote in message

...

Hello,

A tree blew over and I've been chainsawing it up. I noticed it seems
to have some attractive heartwood.

http://tinyurl.com/4vnhr5t

I'm not much of a carpenter and while most of the tree, I think it was
a Lime, will be going for firewood I'd like to make something nice to
show. The only thought I've had so far is to polish a slice as a
clock. I'd like suggestions, and tips, as to what to do with it.
Whatever I did with it would I need to season it first to stop it from
cracking over time? If so how? My late friend used to try turning
bowls on his electric lathe but they always cracked.

I agree that it looks like willow and it is in a pretty bad state. As a
firewood it will spit and crackle and produce lots of smoke. It is full of
moisture and even after seasoning will crack badly. The bottom line is
forget it!

Peter Crosland

Have to agree - forget it totally. Willow isn't really a turning or
carpentry wood and in reality isn't much use for burning either. This
is all due to it's large water content which takes ages to disappear
and then you are left with a wood that has grown very fast and has
little calorific value or ability to be used structurally. The
colours you are seeing are rot and that is the reason for the tree
falling.

Sorry to pour water on your parade.
Rob

[andrew]

robgraham wrote:

Willow isn't really a turning or
carpentry wood and in reality isn't much use for burning either. Â*This
is all due to it's large water content which takes ages to disappear
and then you are left with a wood that has grown very fast and has
little calorific value.

Generally yes but look at DRAX much of the stuff provided by renewable
growers is willow asrc.

Most woods have about the same calorific value when dried to the same mc.
Even willow dries quite fast when split and under cover.

AJH

[harry]

On Feb 5, 10:06*pm, Chade wrote:
Hello,

A tree blew over and I've been chainsawing it up. I noticed it seems
to have some attractive heartwood.

http://tinyurl.com/4vnhr5t

I'm not much of a carpenter and while most of the tree, I think it was
a Lime, will be going for firewood I'd like to make something nice to
show. The only thought I've had so far is to polish a slice as a
clock. I'd like suggestions, and tips, as to what to do with it.
Whatever I did with it would I need to season it first to stop it from
cracking over time? If so how? My late friend used to try turning
bowls on his electric lathe but they always cracked.

It doesn't look a useful wood. The discolouration looks like rot to
me, it may be OK higher up. The leaves give a better clue as to what
sort it is. There are many fungii that strike into the roots of
trees, it's major forestry problem. This is probably why your tree
fell down.

All woods can be burned. Some takes longer to dry out than others
that's all. Cut the trunk up into suitable lengths while it's green
(cuts a lot easier). It will have to be split, some splits easier when
green some easier when dry.

Willow is grown now on an industrial scale for biofuel, & it burns OK
but quickly. Once dry it's very light.
I don't think your tree is willow as it's resistant to most of these
fungii.

[Andy Dingley]

On Feb 5, 10:06 pm, Chade wrote:

A tree blew over and I've been chainsawing it up. I noticed it seems
to have some attractive heartwood.

I think it was a Lime,

Hard to tell, but that doesn't look much like a lime internally, or at
least it was a very rotten one (why did it fall over?)

Lime is usually a very fine grained (invisibly so) pale cream or off-
white wood. It's light and works beautifully, especially for hand
tools.

Lime isn't much use for most turning, but it's an excellent wood for
carving. It's best (at a convenient level) bucked into logs a couple
of feet long, quartered and then coated (ends at least) with a wax
emulsion (Chestnut Endseal, from woodturning suppliers or Axminster).
Wet or dry, these will then sell to carvers (eBay) and the money is
much better than firewood! It sells fine wet, but (if you have covered
space), it's a doddle to dry.

If you have access to a big bandsaw and a thicknesser, then slab it,
dry it, and surface it into 12" x 18" blocks for relief carving. These
sell very well.


I'm not going to hazard a guess at species from a fuzzy photo and no
leaves, but that really doesn't look like a lime. The rings are too
prominent, the bark too coarse and lime isn't noted for rotting like
this. That "attractive heartwood" is rot, probably punky as anything
to work with.

Willow? Maybe.

Willow is of little use to man nor beast. It won't turn, it won't
burn. Willow poles (grown off a coppice or pollard) have their uses as
sticks, and it's a good lightweight timber for building things around
the garden out of thin branches with the bark left on, but willow logs
just aren't much good for anything. It makes nice charcoal though.

I've a fallen willow in our spare garden, and it's mostly going as
firewood (dried over the summer). I have to light some coal beneath it
to get it going, and then it's still just about the worst firewood
you've ever seen. Because it can't be used for turning (tm) I
naturally hhad to turn some of it. I made a set of thin platters in
sizes from 6" to 15": trumpet-shaped, heavy centre, flat thin rims. As
I'd turned them wet, I also allowed them to warp on the rims into a
Pringle shape. It is turnable, but it's not rewarding stuff to work on
and it is a right nuisance to get a decent finish on it. Hardly worth
the trouble, unless you're keen.

[Andy Dingley]

On Feb 6, 9:28*am, andrew wrote:

Generally yes but look at DRAX much of the stuff provided by renewable
growers is willow asrc.

Not logs though. The point about biomass willow is that it's either
coppiced (best) or whips. No-one is growing willow logs for fuel.

[andrew]

Andy Dingley wrote:

Not logs though. The point about biomass willow is that it's either
coppiced (best) or whips. No-one is growing willow logs for fuel.

Apart from asrc plus some trials with eucalyptus and short rotation
softwoods I don't think anyone plants trees commercially for fuel in UK.
You'll note from watching treework on roadsides that it's still cheaper to
chip it to waste rather than haul it off, the economics of biomass demand
large scale harvesting to keep the costs down to about 1/10 those of old
fashioned ( my sort) forestry.

Sawlogs and then industrial wood (chipboard but no longer pulp in this
country) are the intended markest then forestry residues are sold as fuel
but even so I'd guess the planned products subsidise the biomass fuel
harvesting.

There was a large estate near Reading that grew cricket bat willows, a
premium crop on a short rotation, and they did use the logs for heating the
main house.

Generally willow is awkward because it's a b****r to chip.

ASRC has problems in a small boiler too as the extra mineral ash from the
large bark/bud percentage coupled with extraneous soil inclusions cause
havoc from clinker in one installation I dealt with.

One almost never plants willow or poplar as whips commercially, setts are
used often in a hole dibbed in the ground and backfilled with sand.

AJH

[Bill[_18_]]

In message
,
harry writes
All woods can be burned. Some takes longer to dry out than others
that's all. Cut the trunk up into suitable lengths while it's green
(cuts a lot easier). It will have to be split, some splits easier when
green some easier when dry.

Going off on a bit of a tangent, my son is having to have 2 huge trees
taken down this week, plus a lot of other gale-related remedial work, in
the garden of the house he has recently bought. He can only afford the
basic work and will have to arrange to cut and remove the wood.

One tree is a very tall Scots Pine, we are told, and because of its
position will probably come down in sections, so won't produce any long
clear wood like the 25 foot lengths I had to buy when boat building. But
is it worth thinking about getting any of this dried out and to a
sawmill?
The house came with a large shed (double garage sized) with a lean to
open covered storage area beside it. It's dry but gets no sun because of
the huge trees, and I've been saying that I think it would be good for
slow drying of logs and other wood. I assume we want airflow rather than
sun.

We don't know what the other big tree is but hopefully we will be able
to see a leaf or two when it's down. There is also a smaller 30foot-ish
dead holly tree in the deal.

He is talking about a wood burning stove, but the money and time is
tight (eg the drains took us all of Friday and I'm still bodging him a
trailer from what we bought on ebay), so is it likely that we could find
someone to buy the wood for logs?

I've dug out the small Bosch chainsaw (no box, instructions or
accessories) that I bought off a remainder table about 10 years ago in
some long defunct diy store and will buy it some oil later today and
then see if it works.
--
Bill

[Andy Dingley]

On Feb 6, 1:43*pm, Bill wrote:

is it worth thinking about getting any of this dried out and to a
sawmill?

Phone Wood-mizer in Pocklington, and they'll tell you local Wood-mizer
operators near to the tree. Phone them and see if they're interested,
either for buying it or else for coming and slabbing it for you
(usually to 2" or 4", then shed dried).

[Stuart Noble]

One tree is a very tall Scots Pine, we are told, and because of its
position will probably come down in sections, so won't produce any long
clear wood like the 25 foot lengths I had to buy when boat building. But
is it worth thinking about getting any of this dried out and to a sawmill?

Unless you're very far up north, the timber quality will probably be poor.

[harry]

On Feb 6, 1:37*pm, andrew wrote:
Andy Dingley wrote:
Not logs though. The point about biomass willow is that it's either
coppiced (best) or whips. No-one is growing willow logs for fuel.

Apart from asrc plus some trials with eucalyptus and short rotation
softwoods I don't think anyone plants trees commercially for fuel in UK.
You'll note from watching treework on roadsides that it's still cheaper to
chip it to waste rather than haul it off, the economics of biomass demand
large scale harvesting to keep the costs down to about 1/10 those of old
fashioned ( my sort) forestry.

Sawlogs and then industrial wood (chipboard but no longer pulp in this
country) are the intended markest then forestry residues are sold as fuel
but even so I'd guess the planned products subsidise the biomass fuel
harvesting.

There was a large estate near Reading that grew cricket bat willows, a
premium crop on a short rotation, and they did use the logs for heating the
main house.

Generally willow is awkward because it's a b****r to chip.

ASRC has problems in a small boiler too as the *extra mineral ash from the
large bark/bud percentage coupled with extraneous soil inclusions cause
havoc from clinker in one installation I dealt with.

One almost never plants willow or poplar as whips commercially, setts are
used often in a hole dibbed in the ground and backfilled with sand.

AJH

There are hundreds of acres of willow growing in fields just down the
road from our house.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_forestry
On wet ground it's the most commonly grown timber for this purpose.

[harry]

On Feb 6, 1:43*pm, Bill wrote:
In message
,
harry writes

All woods can be burned. Some takes longer to dry out than others
that's all. Cut *the trunk up into suitable lengths while it's green
(cuts a lot easier). It will have to be split, some splits easier when
green some easier when dry.

Going off on a bit of a tangent, my son is having to have 2 huge trees
taken down this week, plus a lot of other gale-related remedial work, in
the garden of the house he has recently bought. He can only afford the
basic work and will have to arrange to cut and remove the wood.

One tree is a very tall Scots Pine, we are told, and because of its
position will probably come down in sections, so won't produce any long
clear wood like the 25 foot lengths I had to buy when boat building. But
is it worth thinking about getting any of this dried out and to a
sawmill?
The house came with a large shed (double garage sized) with a lean to
open covered storage area beside it. It's dry but gets no sun because of
the huge trees, and I've been saying that I think it would be good for
slow drying of logs and other wood. I assume we want airflow rather than
sun.

We don't know what the other big tree is but hopefully we will be able
to see a leaf or two when it's down. There is also a smaller 30foot-ish
dead holly tree in the deal.

He is talking about a wood burning stove, but the money and time is
tight (eg the drains took us all of Friday and I'm still bodging him a
trailer from what we bought on ebay), so is it likely that we could find
someone to buy the wood for logs?

I've dug out the small Bosch chainsaw (no box, instructions or
accessories) that I bought off a remainder table about 10 years ago in
some long defunct diy store and will buy it some oil later today and
then see if it works.
--
Bill

Wild grown timber (esp. conifers) is not likely to be useful. They
have to be grown in stands and the lower branches removed as the tree
grows to prevent large knots. This makes long straight trunks.

[Skipweasel[_4_]]

In article ,
says...
He is talking about a wood burning stove, but the money and time is
tight

I've a large Calor cylinder. Combined with an angle-grinder and a welder
you can make all sorts of wood burning stoves.

--
Skipweasel - never knowingly understood.

[Tabby]

On Feb 6, 1:43*pm, Bill wrote:
In message
,
harry writes

All woods can be burned. Some takes longer to dry out than others
that's all. Cut *the trunk up into suitable lengths while it's green
(cuts a lot easier). It will have to be split, some splits easier when
green some easier when dry.

Going off on a bit of a tangent, my son is having to have 2 huge trees
taken down this week, plus a lot of other gale-related remedial work, in
the garden of the house he has recently bought. He can only afford the
basic work and will have to arrange to cut and remove the wood.

One tree is a very tall Scots Pine, we are told, and because of its
position will probably come down in sections, so won't produce any long
clear wood like the 25 foot lengths I had to buy when boat building. But
is it worth thinking about getting any of this dried out and to a
sawmill?
The house came with a large shed (double garage sized) with a lean to
open covered storage area beside it. It's dry but gets no sun because of
the huge trees, and I've been saying that I think it would be good for
slow drying of logs and other wood. I assume we want airflow rather than
sun.

We don't know what the other big tree is but hopefully we will be able
to see a leaf or two when it's down. There is also a smaller 30foot-ish
dead holly tree in the deal.

He is talking about a wood burning stove, but the money and time is
tight (eg the drains took us all of Friday and I'm still bodging him a
trailer from what we bought on ebay), so is it likely that we could find
someone to buy the wood for logs?

I've dug out the small Bosch chainsaw (no box, instructions or
accessories) that I bought off a remainder table about 10 years ago in
some long defunct diy store and will buy it some oil later today and
then see if it works.

Dried holly timber is very pricey, even in small pieces. It needs to
be debarked, split and put into drying very fast, no leaving it lying
around for a couple of days.


NT

[The Natural Philosopher[_2_]]

Chade wrote:
Hello,

A tree blew over and I've been chainsawing it up. I noticed it seems
to have some attractive heartwood.

http://tinyurl.com/4vnhr5t

I'm not much of a carpenter and while most of the tree, I think it was
a Lime, will be going for firewood I'd like to make something nice to
show. The only thought I've had so far is to polish a slice as a
clock. I'd like suggestions, and tips, as to what to do with it.
Whatever I did with it would I need to season it first to stop it from
cracking over time? If so how? My late friend used to try turning
bowls on his electric lathe but they always cracked.

You need to soak it on a specail wax that replaces the water so it never
'dries out'

It is a nice figure and if its lime it turns really well and carves
excellently.

Same you cant turn it into planks. Limewood is quite valuable.

Try a specialist wood turning suppliers for what to soak it in.

[The Natural Philosopher[_2_]]

Peter Crosland wrote:
"Chade" wrote in message
...
Hello,

A tree blew over and I've been chainsawing it up. I noticed it seems
to have some attractive heartwood.

http://tinyurl.com/4vnhr5t

I'm not much of a carpenter and while most of the tree, I think it was
a Lime, will be going for firewood I'd like to make something nice to
show. The only thought I've had so far is to polish a slice as a
clock. I'd like suggestions, and tips, as to what to do with it.
Whatever I did with it would I need to season it first to stop it from
cracking over time? If so how? My late friend used to try turning
bowls on his electric lathe but they always cracked.

I agree that it looks like willow and it is in a pretty bad state. As a
firewood it will spit and crackle and produce lots of smoke. It is full of
moisture and even after seasoning will crack badly. The bottom line is
forget it!

Peter Crosland


If it is willow dont even bother for firewood. It burns really badly.

[The Natural Philosopher[_2_]]

Andy Dingley wrote:
On Feb 6, 9:28 am, andrew wrote:

Generally yes but look at DRAX much of the stuff provided by renewable
growers is willow asrc.

Not logs though. The point about biomass willow is that it's either
coppiced (best) or whips. No-one is growing willow logs for fuel.

I have a tree of it in slices,. Gave up splitting em. Bitch of a job and
they don't burn.

[The Natural Philosopher[_2_]]

harry wrote:
On Feb 5, 10:06 pm, Chade wrote:
Hello,

A tree blew over and I've been chainsawing it up. I noticed it seems
to have some attractive heartwood.

http://tinyurl.com/4vnhr5t

I'm not much of a carpenter and while most of the tree, I think it was
a Lime, will be going for firewood I'd like to make something nice to
show. The only thought I've had so far is to polish a slice as a
clock. I'd like suggestions, and tips, as to what to do with it.
Whatever I did with it would I need to season it first to stop it from
cracking over time? If so how? My late friend used to try turning
bowls on his electric lathe but they always cracked.

It doesn't look a useful wood. The discolouration looks like rot to
me, it may be OK higher up. The leaves give a better clue as to what
sort it is. There are many fungii that strike into the roots of
trees, it's major forestry problem. This is probably why your tree
fell down.

All woods can be burned. Some takes longer to dry out than others
that's all. Cut the trunk up into suitable lengths while it's green
(cuts a lot easier). It will have to be split, some splits easier when
green some easier when dry.

Willow is grown now on an industrial scale for biofuel, & it burns OK
but quickly. Once dry it's very light.
I don't think your tree is willow as it's resistant to most of these
fungii.

IME even after a year to dry out its reluctant to burn.

[harry]

On Feb 7, 2:58*am, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
harry wrote:
On Feb 5, 10:06 pm, Chade wrote:
Hello,

A tree blew over and I've been chainsawing it up. I noticed it seems
to have some attractive heartwood.

http://tinyurl.com/4vnhr5t

I'm not much of a carpenter and while most of the tree, I think it was
a Lime, will be going for firewood I'd like to make something nice to
show. The only thought I've had so far is to polish a slice as a
clock. I'd like suggestions, and tips, as to what to do with it.
Whatever I did with it would I need to season it first to stop it from
cracking over time? If so how? My late friend used to try turning
bowls on his electric lathe but they always cracked.

It doesn't look a useful wood. The discolouration looks like rot to
me, it may be OK higher up. The leaves give a better clue as to what
sort it is. *There are many fungii that strike into the roots of
trees, it's major forestry problem. *This is probably why your tree
fell down.

All woods can be burned. Some takes longer to dry out than others
that's all. Cut *the trunk up into suitable lengths while it's green
(cuts a lot easier). It will have to be split, some splits easier when
green some easier when dry.

Willow is grown now on an industrial scale for biofuel, & it burns OK
but quickly. *Once dry it's very light.
I don't think your tree is willow as it's resistant to most of these
fungii.

IME even after a year to dry out its reluctant to burn.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

That is because it needs two years. Dense hardwoods are OK after one
year. Oak, beech, ash etc.
It drys a lot quicker if split at least once, the bark stops it from
drying out (as it's designed to)

[harry]

On Feb 7, 2:57*am, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
Andy Dingley wrote:
On Feb 6, 9:28 am, andrew wrote:

Generally yes but look at DRAX much of the stuff provided by renewable
growers is willow asrc.

Not logs though. The point about biomass willow is that it's either
coppiced (best) or whips. No-one is growing willow logs for fuel.

I have a tree of it in slices,. Gave up splitting em. Bitch of a job and
they don't burn.

You can buy both willow and poplar specifically bred for log growing/
coppicing, I have some on my ground. In five years its twenty feet
high and six inches diameter.

[Tim Lamb[_2_]]

In message
,
Tabby writes

Dried holly timber is very pricey, even in small pieces. It needs to
be debarked, split and put into drying very fast, no leaving it lying
around for a couple of days.

I've got a few 10 month drying *halves* of Walnut trunk if anyone wants
a go. I saved them for a friend but he cried off. Firewood otherwise!

regards

--
Tim Lamb

[Stuart Noble]

On 07/02/2011 02:56, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Chade wrote:
Hello,

A tree blew over and I've been chainsawing it up. I noticed it seems
to have some attractive heartwood.

http://tinyurl.com/4vnhr5t

I'm not much of a carpenter and while most of the tree, I think it was
a Lime, will be going for firewood I'd like to make something nice to
show. The only thought I've had so far is to polish a slice as a
clock. I'd like suggestions, and tips, as to what to do with it.
Whatever I did with it would I need to season it first to stop it from
cracking over time? If so how? My late friend used to try turning
bowls on his electric lathe but they always cracked.

You need to soak it on a specail wax that replaces the water so it never
'dries out'

It is a nice figure and if its lime it turns really well and carves
excellently.

Same you cant turn it into planks. Limewood is quite valuable.

Try a specialist wood turning suppliers for what to soak it in.

Whatever they used on the Mary Rose

[Andy Dingley]

On Feb 7, 9:27*am, Tim Lamb wrote:

I've got a few 10 month drying *halves* of Walnut trunk if anyone wants
a go. I saved them for a friend but he cried off. Firewood otherwise!

Whereabouts are you?

[Andy Dingley]

On Feb 7, 8:34*am, harry wrote:

It drys a lot quicker if split at least once, the bark stops it from
drying out (as it's designed to)

Mine is 6" or smaller (rounds or split), but I leave the bark on and
stack it as a holzhausen. I don't have a drying shed for firewood.

[Andy Dingley]

On Feb 7, 2:56*am, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

You need to soak it on a specail wax that replaces the water so it never
'dries out'

High molecular weight polyethylene glycol PEG 1000 (no, baking grade
doesn't work).

You shouldn't need this for most work in UK timber. It's really just
for exotics. Bowls are normally turned from halved logs, not as end-
grain disks from across the log. So long as you avoid the pith and you
dry them slowly, you can avoid cracking - they'll warp instead.

I have most of a chestnut still to turn up, after it was felled a few
months ago. I turn the untreated logs green to be thick-walled bowl
blanks, coat them in wax emulsion (not PEG) and leave them to dry for
a year or two. Then I finish turn them to shape. They'll warp in this
time and a few will crack, but the walls were left thick enough that I
should still get an unwarped bowl out from inside. It's also easier
to store bowl blanks than to store a whole tree.

[The Natural Philosopher[_2_]]

Andy Dingley wrote:
On Feb 7, 2:56 am, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

You need to soak it on a specail wax that replaces the water so it never
'dries out'

High molecular weight polyethylene glycol PEG 1000 (no, baking grade
doesn't work).


THANK YOU.
That's the thing whose name I could NOT remember.

You shouldn't need this for most work in UK timber. It's really just
for exotics. Bowls are normally turned from halved logs, not as end-
grain disks from across the log. So long as you avoid the pith and you
dry them slowly, you can avoid cracking - they'll warp instead.

I have most of a chestnut still to turn up, after it was felled a few
months ago. I turn the untreated logs green to be thick-walled bowl
blanks, coat them in wax emulsion (not PEG) and leave them to dry for
a year or two. Then I finish turn them to shape. They'll warp in this
time and a few will crack, but the walls were left thick enough that I
should still get an unwarped bowl out from inside. It's also easier
to store bowl blanks than to store a whole tree.


Good technique. I'd love to do wood turning..

[Tim Lamb[_2_]]

In message
,
Andy Dingley writes
On Feb 7, 9:27*am, Tim Lamb wrote:

I've got a few 10 month drying *halves* of Walnut trunk if anyone wants
a go. I saved them for a friend but he cried off. Firewood otherwise!

Whereabouts are you?

Halfway up and halfway left in Hertfordshi-)

regards

--
Tim Lamb

[Tabby]

On Feb 7, 2:57*am, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
Andy Dingley wrote:
On Feb 6, 9:28 am, andrew wrote:

Generally yes but look at DRAX much of the stuff provided by renewable
growers is willow asrc.

Not logs though. The point about biomass willow is that it's either
coppiced (best) or whips. No-one is growing willow logs for fuel.

I have a tree of it in slices,. Gave up splitting em. Bitch of a job and
they don't burn.

I had some no good wood to burn once, and it wouldnt stay alight at
all. Think it was elder. What worked was to create an outer perimeter
of it around the edges of the grate, then build a fire with good wood
in the centre. Gradually the elder all got burnt.


NT

[geoff]

In message , stuart noble
writes
On 07/02/2011 02:56, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Chade wrote:
Hello,

A tree blew over and I've been chainsawing it up. I noticed it seems
to have some attractive heartwood.

http://tinyurl.com/4vnhr5t

I'm not much of a carpenter and while most of the tree, I think it was
a Lime, will be going for firewood I'd like to make something nice to
show. The only thought I've had so far is to polish a slice as a
clock. I'd like suggestions, and tips, as to what to do with it.
Whatever I did with it would I need to season it first to stop it from
cracking over time? If so how? My late friend used to try turning
bowls on his electric lathe but they always cracked.

You need to soak it on a specail wax that replaces the water so it never
'dries out'

It is a nice figure and if its lime it turns really well and carves
excellently.

Same you cant turn it into planks. Limewood is quite valuable.

Try a specialist wood turning suppliers for what to soak it in.

Whatever they used on the Mary Rose

The english channel ?


--
geoff

[Andy Dingley]

On Feb 7, 8:54*pm, Tabby wrote:

I had some no good wood to burn once, and it wouldnt stay alight at
all. Think it was elder.

The only UK wood that burns worse than willow, and it smells nasty
too.

What worked was to create an outer perimeter
of it around the edges of the grate, then build a fire with good wood
in the centre. Gradually the elder all got burnt.

What you mean is that you built a wooden fireplace hearth out of
elder, and it lasted for quite a while.

[Chade]

On Feb 5, 10:06 pm, Chade wrote:
Hello,

A tree blew over and I've been chainsawing it up. I noticed it seems
to have some attractive heartwood.

Thanks everyone for your replies. I've decided not to try to turn it
on a lathe, just cut and polish a slice for use as a clock. To that
end I took a cut piece standing on it's end on the wet ground, with
another bit sitting flat on top, and cut a thick slice off each end of
the bottom piece then sealed the ends with a coat of PVA. Later I'll
take a slice from the middle to polish as a clock. Any ideas how long
it will take to dry?

I've got some coppiced Ash pieces to take down. There about six inches
thick. If I sealed the ends with PVA as soon as they were cut would
they dry okay? I'd like to turn them but if I split them they would be
pretty thin.

There is also what is definitely a Lime tree that a friend wants me to
fell, it's tall, straight and without branches until about half way
up. Though this is thicker, a good eighteen inches. If I wanted to
prepare it for carving would I still need to quarter it as well as a
PVA coat for the ends?

[Andy Dingley]

On Feb 7, 10:18*pm, Chade wrote:

Thanks everyone for your replies. I've decided not to try to turn it
on a lathe, just cut and polish a slice for use as a clock.

By "slice", I'm guessing you mean a transverse disk. You have pretty
much no chance of this drying without splitting (anything over 4"
diameter). The reasons are slightly complicated to explain in detail,
so if the usual pinheads could please go and read Bruce Hoadley before
arguing, we'd all save some time.

You might want to make some backup slices. Then when they've split,
you can bandsaw them into radial segments and rejoin them to make a
fair approximation of a disk.

Any ideas how long it will take to dry?

A year an inch of radial thickness for long timber. A summer for short
stuff.

I've got some coppiced Ash pieces to take down. There about six inches
thick. If I sealed the ends with PVA as soon as they were cut would
they dry okay? I'd like to turn them but if I split them they would be
pretty thin.

I use wax emulsion for sealing, but PVA is probably OK. Certainly if
that's what you've got handy. Some people use emulsion paint.

Ash logs are going to split at the ends, so you'll lose some length.
However ash is so dry straight off the tree that it's fairly easy to
dry otherwise and you might keep logs of this size intact. It's so
well behaved that it's even one of the few timbers you can turn with
the pith intact, just keep it buried in the middle and don't expose
it.


There is also what is definitely a Lime tree that a friend wants me to
fell, it's tall, straight and without branches until about half way
up. Though this is thicker, a good eighteen inches. If I wanted to
prepare it for carving would I still need to quarter it as well as a
PVA coat for the ends?

Lime is much more stable. I've two foot diameter logs of it in the
woodshed that are just rounds (about 10 years old now) and no
splitting. Must uses do want to lose the pith though, so halving it is
a good move. Make good use of it though, it's too good to waste. If
you can't use it, sell it to carvers.

[Clive George]

On 08/02/2011 00:03, Andy Dingley wrote:

By "slice", I'm guessing you mean a transverse disk. You have pretty
much no chance of this drying without splitting (anything over 4"
diameter). The reasons are slightly complicated to explain in detail,
so if the usual pinheads could please go and read Bruce Hoadley before
arguing, we'd all save some time.

Assuming I don't have Bruce Hoadley to hand, but don't see any reason to
argue, is this because the thin stuff isn't strong enough? You say it's
complicated in detail, but could you give an idiot's summary? (mostly I
can see why it would split, but am vague as to why bigger stuff wouldn't).

[harry]

On Feb 8, 5:14*am, Clive George wrote:
On 08/02/2011 00:03, Andy Dingley wrote:

By "slice", I'm guessing you mean a transverse disk. You have pretty
much no chance of this drying without splitting (anything over 4"
diameter). The reasons are slightly complicated to explain in detail,
so if the usual pinheads could please go and read Bruce Hoadley before
arguing, we'd all save some time.

Assuming I don't have Bruce Hoadley to hand, but don't see any reason to
argue, is this because the thin stuff isn't strong enough? You say it's
complicated in detail, but could you give an idiot's summary? (mostly I
can see why it would split, but am vague as to why bigger stuff wouldn't)..

The there is more moisture in the outer layers of trees than the inner
so it shrinks more, basically. That causes cracks, esp. if the drying
out process is rapid. If rapid, the inner bit doesn't get to dry out
at all.
Drying has to be a slow process to allow the inner to dry.
The timber is cut into planks and stacked with battens between. The
ends are often painted to stop drying beint too quick.
This is air drying. Most timber takes a year for every inch thickness
of the planks to dry out (or "season").

[Tim Lamb[_2_]]

In message
,
harry writes
On Feb 8, 5:14*am, Clive George wrote:
On 08/02/2011 00:03, Andy Dingley wrote:

By "slice", I'm guessing you mean a transverse disk. You have pretty
much no chance of this drying without splitting (anything over 4"
diameter). The reasons are slightly complicated to explain in detail,
so if the usual pinheads could please go and read Bruce Hoadley before
arguing, we'd all save some time.

Assuming I don't have Bruce Hoadley to hand, but don't see any reason to
argue, is this because the thin stuff isn't strong enough? You say it's
complicated in detail, but could you give an idiot's summary? (mostly I
can see why it would split, but am vague as to why bigger stuff wouldn't).

The there is more moisture in the outer layers of trees than the inner
so it shrinks more, basically. That causes cracks, esp. if the drying
out process is rapid. If rapid, the inner bit doesn't get to dry out
at all.
Drying has to be a slow process to allow the inner to dry.
The timber is cut into planks and stacked with battens between. The
ends are often painted to stop drying beint too quick.
This is air drying. Most timber takes a year for every inch thickness
of the planks to dry out (or "season").

The recent gales caused a mature Oak, semi-sound, (around 3'6" trunk) to
assume a horizontal position here.

At some time in the next few weeks I will have to make decisions as to
its fate. Previously I have engaged a mobile saw mill contractor to
convert to 8"x4" and 4"x4" for construction jobs. This time I am
considering 8"x1" for floor boarding. Due to the nature of in field
milling, cuts of up to 8" horizontal or vertical can be made.

Bearing in mind this is Oak. Is it worth attempting to maximise the
production of boards with growth rings at less than 30deg. or not
bother? Boards will be stacked for air drying.

regards

--
Tim Lamb

[The Natural Philosopher[_2_]]

Tim Lamb wrote:
In message
,
harry writes
On Feb 8, 5:14 am, Clive George wrote:
On 08/02/2011 00:03, Andy Dingley wrote:

By "slice", I'm guessing you mean a transverse disk. You have pretty
much no chance of this drying without splitting (anything over 4"
diameter). The reasons are slightly complicated to explain in detail,
so if the usual pinheads could please go and read Bruce Hoadley before
arguing, we'd all save some time.

Assuming I don't have Bruce Hoadley to hand, but don't see any reason to
argue, is this because the thin stuff isn't strong enough? You say it's
complicated in detail, but could you give an idiot's summary? (mostly I
can see why it would split, but am vague as to why bigger stuff
wouldn't).

The there is more moisture in the outer layers of trees than the inner
so it shrinks more, basically. That causes cracks, esp. if the drying
out process is rapid. If rapid, the inner bit doesn't get to dry out
at all.
Drying has to be a slow process to allow the inner to dry.
The timber is cut into planks and stacked with battens between. The
ends are often painted to stop drying beint too quick.
This is air drying. Most timber takes a year for every inch thickness
of the planks to dry out (or "season").

The recent gales caused a mature Oak, semi-sound, (around 3'6" trunk) to
assume a horizontal position here.

At some time in the next few weeks I will have to make decisions as to
its fate. Previously I have engaged a mobile saw mill contractor to
convert to 8"x4" and 4"x4" for construction jobs. This time I am
considering 8"x1" for floor boarding. Due to the nature of in field
milling, cuts of up to 8" horizontal or vertical can be made.

Bearing in mind this is Oak. Is it worth attempting to maximise the
production of boards with growth rings at less than 30deg. or not
bother? Boards will be stacked for air drying.


You get the best figure from the boards that warp the most.

IF its for inside use, Id simply flat saw the lot, bin the pith, wait
till the lot has warped and then plane to board sizes. And hope they
don't warp again..

Use the center bits for structure, and the edge bits for show


regards

[Andy Dingley]

On Feb 8, 5:14*am, Clive George wrote:
On 08/02/2011 00:03, Andy Dingley wrote:

By "slice", I'm guessing you mean a transverse disk. You have pretty
much no chance of this drying without splitting (anything over 4"
diameter). The reasons are slightly complicated to explain in detail,
so if the usual pinheads could please go and read Bruce Hoadley before
arguing, we'd all save some time.

Assuming I don't have Bruce Hoadley to hand, but don't see any reason to
argue, is this because the thin stuff isn't strong enough?

Sorry, but every time this comes up, the usual idiots start arguing
about how they've dried a giant redwood in their shed and it didn't
split.

If you don't have Hoadley, buy it, as it's a damn good book. If you
don't want to do that, the US Forest Products Handbook is on-line for
free (and also available printed and bound for a reasonable price).
OTOH, Hoadley is clearer to read.

Timber drying highlights how much some species differ in some aspects,
but also (surprisingly, to me anyway) how much other aspects are
consistent between species. Moisture content (EMC) has a consistent
relationship with air humidity (RH). Moisture content of a felled log
varies a lot (why felled ash will burn, but others needs to be dried).
Shrinkage with MC varies across species, but total shrinkage from
"felled log" to "dry board" ends up consistent again. The breaking
point of timber varies a lot measured as a stress (i.e. force) but is
consistent as a strain (i.e. dimensional change). The ratio between
tangential, radial and longitudinal shrinkage is consistent, even
though the absolute values vary.

Tangential, or hoop, shrinkage is twice the radial shrinkage (and
lengthways is near zero). If they were the same, then wood would
shrink isotropically, by the same in every direction. The total
shrinkage is about 10% tangentially and 5% radially, for a wet log to
a dry board, for any species. Considering the log as a set of "onion
rings", you should realise that it's now increasingly difficult for
the outer rings to stretch all the way to reach round the inner layers
- and so they crack radially, from excess tension.

Why does it crack? Well the shrinkage will hit 10%, which will
generate some unknown tension in the rings. The tensile force is
enough to break the timber. Now I know neither the force generated,
nor the tensile strength (in force units) of the timber, but I do not
that the maximum strain (as a dimension change ratio) for all timber
is about 8% (AFAIR, can't remember the precise figure). So _whatever_
the species, wet to dry is enough to break a constrained piece of it.

We can avoid this in a few ways.One is a radial cut, or halving the
board. Note also that a log that develops a split early just develops
the one major split. That split relieves much of the tension. Another
way is to take the centre out of the log and to allow it to collapse
as rings.

Another way is to crush the central core of the log (by an
imperceptible amount). If the central core is simply small, then it's
crushed by the larger outer ring. The square law for cross-section
area is such a small core surrounded by a ring an extra inch thick is
far less cross-section than the ring, but for larger cores that extra
inch of ring becomes a progressively smaller cross-section compared to
the core. Small cores get crushed, large cores burst the ring. This
varies by species, as it depends on the species-varying ratio of
tensile strength vs. crush strength. When a species, like lime, is
easy to dry without cracking, it's usually down to this ability to
crush the core slightly.

Elm, noted for its interlocking grain, has a much stronger tensile
strength in a large piece than a small piece, so drying elm will tend
to generate many microcracks, rather than a single big crack.

It's not about varying moisture content radially.