[Alec]

I have a customer with a small chalet with no electricity. I fitted a basic domestic alarm connected to a 75 ah leisure battery. What would be best to trickle charge the battery wind or solar power. Also the charging device would have to be about 20-30 feet away from the chalet because of tree cover. Any help much appreciated. Let me know if you need more info.

"Alec" wrote in message
...

I have a customer with a small chalet with no electricity. I fitted a
basic domestic alarm connected to a 75 ah leisure battery. What would
be best to trickle charge the battery wind or solar power. Also the
charging device would have to be about 20-30 feet away from the chalet
because of tree cover. Any help much appreciated. Let me know if you
need more info.

Based on observed practice, I'd suggest wind. I've noticed a large number of
Rutland (type) wind chargers on boats I see on a regular walk I do. Even
this morning I noticed one that was spinning two quick to count the blades
but the wind was imperceptible. It was very compact, blades turning
diameter probably only 15" or so.

May be worth dipping into the rec.boat.electronics newsgroup, the
application is similar.

--
73
Brian
www.g8osn.org.uk

On Sat, 17 Jun 2006 11:32:10 +0100, Alec wrote:

|
|I have a customer with a small chalet with no electricity. I fitted a
|basic domestic alarm connected to a 75 ah leisure battery. What would
|be best to trickle charge the battery wind or solar power. Also the
|charging device would have to be about 20-30 feet away from the chalet
|because of tree cover. Any help much appreciated. Let me know if you
|need more info.

This FAQ is about caravanning, but describes all the methods I know about.

You can caravan without that orange cable FAQ
---------------------------------------------

This FAQ is intended to give some pointers on how to caravan without
that orange cable, or at a site where hookups are not available. It
does not try to say what is best, because that will depend on your
individual circumstances, but does try to give basic information about
the methods and the advantages and disadvantages of each alternative.

For general information on batteries see: http://www.batteryfaq.org,
this is a bit US oriented, but lead acid batteries are much the same
worldwide.

Domestic multimeters now cost as little as ?2.50 and are useful for
caravan work.

A new fully charged 110Ah Leisure Battery will last most people for a
weekend, but very few a week. For longer than a few days you will
have to recharge the battery somehow. Remember that as batteries get
older and as they have more use/misuse they will hold less charge, and
eventually need replacing.

Leisure batteries are usually *not* the no maintenance batteries
becoming common in cars. If yours allows topping up, always check
your electrolyte, and top up to marks on the body with
distilled/deionized water regularly. You should always charge your
battery(s) before you leave home, either on the bench, or by leaving
the van powered up, you should give either method several days to
fully charge. Cheap chargers make gas, so you must top up the
electrolyte. Expensive electronic chargers do not fully charge the
battery, and make less gas so need topping up less frequently.
Remember also that the electrolyte will evaporate slowly even while
the battery is unused.

There is very little power in a leisure battery so you should use it
as sparingly as practicable. You should use LPG for as many things as
possible. You should also make sure that the your electric appliances
will run off 12 Volts. High power electrical equipment is bad news. A
1000 watt heater used on its own, will run for less than 1 1/2 hours,
500 watts less than 3 hours. 250 watts some 5 hours. As a general
rule something like a TV taking 50W or 4 amps for a few hours per day
is the heaviest load practicable.

The output voltage of a battery falls slowly as a charge is used, and
eventually the 12 V equipment will stop working. TVs etc. need as
many volts as possible. Thin long wires which may be supplied by the
van manufacturer or as a D.I.Y. addition, may have a high voltage
drop. If possible add extra wiring for TV, or other electronic
equipment, of thick wires ?2 sq mm? or preferably more, and as short
runs as practicable.

You should find out how much charge you use on an average day in the
van. The maths is simple 110AH=1320wattHours. watts=12*amps,
amps=watts/12, at 12 V DC. Find how many watts/amps each appliance
uses from labels or instructions. Multiply these by the hours each is
used daily. Add daily charge used in watthours or amperehours used by
each of your appliances together to give daily charge used. You
should replace this charge averaged over 2-3 days. There are many
alternative ways of replacing this charge, the choice is yours, and
will depend on your personal circumstances. Beware especially of red
"standby" LEDs, the circuit behind them uses about 7 watts, which is a
tiny amount of power, but they are on 24 hrs, less the hours they are
used, per day. Allow 12 ampere hours or 144 watthours *each* per day,
which is a significant drain on the battery.

Car
---

You can use two batteries. An extra battery can be charged in the
back of the car via a split charge relay. This battery should be
securely fastened into the car. The batteries contain Sulphuric acid
which is nasty stuff and if the battery tips over it can do a lot of
harm to the car. Also if you have a crash a battery hitting the back
of your head may cause serious injury. The tiny amounts of hydrogen
and oxygen produced, should cause no problems, in a well ventilated
car. If you use marine batteries, many of these will dump the gasses
overboard via a plastic tube. If you go out in the car and "do"
things on most days while using the van, this should give you enough
charge. If you stay on site or just drive to the local town/beach this
method will not work for you. At some sites battery charging
facilities are available. Swap the batteries daily or at slightest
sign of low voltage. Be warned however that batteries are heavy and
cumbersome to change, and this is not a method for the unfit.

You should ensure that when the van is being towed the battery is
actually being charged. There are no less than three ways in which
the van can be wired, and three ways in which the car can be wired
giving ?5? combinations, some of which do not charge the van battery
when towing. see: http://www.volvoclub.org.uk/towbar_electrics.htm.
If you tour continuously this will be important, but if you just tow
to a site and eventually home again you can probably ignore this
method.

Solar
-----

Solar cells are available specifically for vans, but are rated
pointing directly at full sun, which rarely happens in UK, but they do
give some output even on cloudy days, unfortunately the retailers do
not tell you how much. If possible point your cells due south,
slightly below the maximum local elevation of the sun. As a general
rule you will need *big* cells 25 watts or preferably more. The
Australians with all their sun fit 80 watt solar panels or larger. If
you calculate charge needed as above, you can get a better estimate of
the size of cells required.

Wind
----

Wind generators are rated at a high wind speed which rarely happens in
an English summer, they give a lower output at lower wind speeds.
The power from a wind generator varies as the *cube* of the windspeed,
so half the wind speed gives a eighth of the power. Many caravan sites
in the countryside are surrounded by trees, which reduce wind speeds.
Other sites by the seaside are better for wind generators. As a
general rule you will need a 25Watt generator or preferably more
powerful. If you calculate charge needed as above you can get a better
estimate of the size of generator required.

Generators
----------

Portable petrol driven generators with 240Vac output can be plugged
into your van. They however make a noise which other campers find
objectionable. These generators will also charge your battery, but how
much will depend on the generator and charger in use. Most sites
will forbid their use during the night, so you will need to use 12V
for some of the time.

Invertors
---------

Invertors which change 12Vdc to 230Vac, are commonly available.
Increase the charge calculated above by up to 20% for things run via
invertors. These should be wired directly to the equipment which uses
230VAC. Do not wire the output of the invertor to the van 230VAC
sockets, which run the charger, which runs the invertor, which runs
the charger ....
--
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method of accessing usenet. GG subscribers would be well advised get a
newsreader, say Agent, and a newsserver, say news.individual.net. These
will allow them: to see only *new* posts, a killfile, and other goodies.

On Sat, 17 Jun 2006 11:32:10 +0100, Alec wrote:

|
|I have a customer with a small chalet with no electricity. I fitted a
|basic domestic alarm connected to a 75 ah leisure battery. What would
|be best to trickle charge the battery wind or solar power. Also the
|charging device would have to be about 20-30 feet away from the chalet
|because of tree cover. Any help much appreciated. Let me know if you
|need more info.

Not what you asked, but it strikes me that if your customer is paying for a
leisure battery, plus charging system, they will have enough charge in the
battery to run a few 12V lights, a water pump and all the usual things you
can find in a caravan, including a 12V TV. They would need at least 2
amps from the trickle charger to do that.
--
Dave Fawthrop dave hyphenologist co uk Google Groups is IME the *worst*
method of accessing usenet. GG subscribers would be well advised get a
newsreader, say Agent, and a newsserver, say news.individual.net. These
will allow them: to see only *new* posts, a killfile, and other goodies.

On Sat, 17 Jun 2006 11:32:10 +0100, Alec wrote:

I have a customer with a small chalet with no electricity. I fitted a
basic domestic alarm connected to a 75 ah leisure battery. What would
be best to trickle charge the battery wind or solar power. Also the
charging device would have to be about 20-30 feet away from the chalet
because of tree cover. Any help much appreciated. Let me know if you
need more info.

I have a slightly larger installation at my farm, with 800AH of battery,
however I started with 100AH of battery so I've been through what you are
trying to do. The short answer is that you need both and a charge
controller. For what you are looking to do one of the Rutland charge
controllers will fit the bill. They have two inputs, solar and wind and
will dump the current from the wind generator to a diversion load when the
battery is fully charged.

I would suggest that you start with a solar panel, and then add a wind
gneerator if necessary. However I also work on eletrical/electronic
installations on motorways and if you look you will see that for low
current drain stuff we use solar only, for higher drain uses we have both
wind and solar.

You'll forgive, I am sure my tetchiness at tradesmen who take on a job that
they are unqualified to do and then come to a diy group to find out how to
do it.

On Sat, 17 Jun 2006 14:02:46 +0100, Steve Firth
wrote:

|I would suggest that you start with a solar panel, and then add a wind
|gneerator if necessary. However I also work on eletrical/electronic
|installations on motorways and if you look you will see that for low
|current drain stuff we use solar only, for higher drain uses we have both
|wind and solar.

What are those green boxes which you see beside motorways, with a solar
panel on the top?
--
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will allow them: to see only *new* posts, a killfile, and other goodies.

In article ,
Alec wrote:
I have a customer with a small chalet with no electricity. I fitted a
basic domestic alarm connected to a 75 ah leisure battery.

Why so large?

--
*Aim Low, Reach Your Goals, Avoid Disappointment *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sat, 17 Jun 2006 17:50:33 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

|In article ,
| Alec wrote:
| I have a customer with a small chalet with no electricity. I fitted a
| basic domestic alarm connected to a 75 ah leisure battery.
|
|Why so large?

That is the *small* one. Caravanners usually have 110ah
--
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method of accessing usenet. GG subscribers would be well advised get a
newsreader, say Agent, and a newsserver, say news.individual.net. These
will allow them: to see only *new* posts, a killfile, and other goodies.

On Sat, 17 Jun 2006 14:32:24 +0100, Dave Fawthrop wrote:

On Sat, 17 Jun 2006 14:02:46 +0100, Steve Firth
wrote:

|I would suggest that you start with a solar panel, and then add a wind
|gneerator if necessary. However I also work on eletrical/electronic
|installations on motorways and if you look you will see that for low
|current drain stuff we use solar only, for higher drain uses we have both
|wind and solar.

What are those green boxes which you see beside motorways, with a solar
panel on the top?

They are traffic counting devices. The box is linked to a set of loops
buried in the road surface one pair of loops in each lane. You can usually
see the loops as a shiny outline on the road surface. The green box counts
traffic flow and sends the data back to the National Traffic Control
Centre. NTCC use the data to work out where there are serious delays and
then set messages on the EMS signs to divert traffic around the problem.

On Sat, 17 Jun 2006 17:50:33 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Alec wrote:
I have a customer with a small chalet with no electricity. I fitted a
basic domestic alarm connected to a 75 ah leisure battery.

Why so large?

You can realistically only draw around 35% of total capacity, so it's
functionally a 25AH battery. It's probably oversized, I would guess that
the actual requirement is closer to 8-10AH, but at least it will give some
headroom for a couple of days power outage.

[Alec]

Originally Posted by Dave Fawthrop

On Sat, 17 Jun 2006 14:02:46 +0100, Steve Firth
wrote:

|I would suggest that you start with a solar panel, and then add a wind
|gneerator if necessary. However I also work on eletrical/electronic
|installations on motorways and if you look you will see that for low
|current drain stuff we use solar only, for higher drain uses we have both
|wind and solar.

What are those green boxes which you see beside motorways, with a solar
panel on the top?
--
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method of accessing usenet. GG subscribers would be well advised get a
newsreader, say Agent, and a newsserver, say news.individual.net. These
will allow them: to see only *new* posts, a killfile, and other goodies.

Thanks for all the replies. I will definitely look into the rutland equipment and let my customer know. I have also had some luck with my local supplier (after I had posted) who also recommended solar first and wind as a backup if needed. Thanks guys much appreciated

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Steve Firth
saying something like:

You'll forgive, I am sure my tetchiness at tradesmen who take on a job that
they are unqualified to do and then come to a diy group to find out how to
do it.

Everybody's got to start somewhere with this kind of thing. You had to,
yourself.
--

Dave

On Sat, 17 Jun 2006 21:06:35 +0100, Steve Firth
wrote:

|On Sat, 17 Jun 2006 14:32:24 +0100, Dave Fawthrop wrote:
|
| On Sat, 17 Jun 2006 14:02:46 +0100, Steve Firth
| wrote:
|
||I would suggest that you start with a solar panel, and then add a wind
||gneerator if necessary. However I also work on eletrical/electronic
||installations on motorways and if you look you will see that for low
||current drain stuff we use solar only, for higher drain uses we have both
||wind and solar.
|
| What are those green boxes which you see beside motorways, with a solar
| panel on the top?
|
|They are traffic counting devices. The box is linked to a set of loops
|buried in the road surface one pair of loops in each lane. You can usually
|see the loops as a shiny outline on the road surface. The green box counts
|traffic flow and sends the data back to the National Traffic Control
|Centre. NTCC use the data to work out where there are serious delays and
|then set messages on the EMS signs to divert traffic around the problem.

Thanks!
--
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method of accessing usenet. GG subscribers would be well advised get a
newsreader, say Agent, and a newsserver, say news.individual.net. These
will allow them: to see only *new* posts, a killfile, and other goodies.

On Sun, 18 Jun 2006 00:32:19 +0100, Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Steve Firth
saying something like:

You'll forgive, I am sure my tetchiness at tradesmen who take on a job that
they are unqualified to do and then come to a diy group to find out how to
do it.

Everybody's got to start somewhere with this kind of thing. You had to,
yourself.

Umm yes, but I'm not selling my services, to others. I'm a DIY loon having
fun at my own expense.

[Alec]

Originally Posted by Dave Plowman (News)

In article ,
Alec wrote:
I have a customer with a small chalet with no electricity. I fitted a
basic domestic alarm connected to a 75 ah leisure battery.

Why so large?

--
*Aim Low, Reach Your Goals, Avoid Disappointment *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Thats what the customer has to be honest no other reason. But everytime I do a load test it only registers about 40-50ah. Even after a full charge.

On Mon, 19 Jun 2006 00:28:27 +0100, Alec wrote:

Steve Firth Wrote:
On Sun, 18 Jun 2006 00:32:19 +0100, Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Steve Firth
saying something like:

You'll forgive, I am sure my tetchiness at tradesmen who take on a job
that
they are unqualified to do and then come to a diy group to find out how
to
do it.

Everybody's got to start somewhere with this kind of thing. You had
to,
yourself.

Umm yes, but I'm not selling my services, to others. I'm a DIY loon
having
fun at my own expense.

I hadn't even noticed your tetchiness to be honest and as a NACOSS Gold
(now NSI) approved engineer in all aspects of CCTV, Access control and
Intruder alarms for 16 years who are you to say I'm unqualified.

How many offline power systems have you installed?

Your post indicates this is the first, hence you are unqualified in this
respect.

**** me are you going to join Drivel in the stupid bin?

[Alec]

Originally Posted by Steve Firth

On Sun, 18 Jun 2006 00:32:19 +0100, Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Steve Firth
saying something like:

You'll forgive, I am sure my tetchiness at tradesmen who take on a job that
they are unqualified to do and then come to a diy group to find out how to
do it.

Everybody's got to start somewhere with this kind of thing. You had to,
yourself.

Umm yes, but I'm not selling my services, to others. I'm a DIY loon having
fun at my own expense.

I hadn't even noticed your tetchiness to be honest and as a NACOSS Gold (now NSI) approved engineer in all aspects of CCTV, Access control and Intruder alarms for 16 years who are you to say I'm unqualified. Also this is the first job in said 16 years where I haven't had a 240vac supply and also a customer who only visits the site once every 2 months over winter hence the need to keep the battery in good nick. All other battery powered jobs have had some sort of charging system. I'm not selling my services it's an idea thought up by myself and my customer. Ultimately he will end up fitting it with his son. We were looking for feedback and ideas but I hadn't expected judgemental people like you on whats normally a friendly site. Remember it's DIY Banter.
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/defi...5898&dict=CALD

Sorry about that everyone else thought I had better set the record straight and thanks for your posts and ideas it has been a help. Anymore ideas or info/experience would be much appreciated.

In message , Alec
writes

Steve Firth Wrote:
On Sun, 18 Jun 2006 00:32:19 +0100, Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Steve Firth
saying something like:

Remember it's DIY Banter.

Sort of explains it

clueless ****wits who post on UK.d-i-y


--
geoff

On Mon, 19 Jun 2006 00:28:27 +0100, Alec wrote:
|I haven't had a 240vac
|supply and also a customer who only visits the site once every 2
|months over winter hence the need to keep the battery in good nick.

Leisure batteries (when not maintenance free) require topping up at
intervals. Insist that your customer tops up the battery at regular
intervals. 2 monthly should be fine, if you install some sort of charge
controller.

--
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method of accessing usenet. GG subscribers would be well advised get a
newsreader, say Agent, and a newsserver, say news.individual.net. These
will allow them: to see only *new* posts, a killfile, and other goodies.

On Mon, 19 Jun 2006 06:39:41 +0100, Dave Fawthrop wrote:

Leisure batteries (when not maintenance free) require topping up at
intervals. Insist that your customer tops up the battery at regular
intervals. 2 monthly should be fine, if you install some sort of charge
controller.

Errrm, if he fits a solar panel and a Rutland (or similar) controller the
idea is that the battery will be topped up continuously in daylight hours.
The problem is that in winter the days will be short, the sun will be of
much lesser intensity and snowfall or days of low cloud will leave the
possibility that the panel fails to charge the battery. This is why a
second source such as a wind generator is a good idea.

On Mon, 19 Jun 2006 09:26:16 +0100, Steve Firth
wrote:

|On Mon, 19 Jun 2006 06:39:41 +0100, Dave Fawthrop wrote:
|
| Leisure batteries (when not maintenance free) require topping up at
| intervals. Insist that your customer tops up the battery at regular
| intervals. 2 monthly should be fine, if you install some sort of charge
| controller.
|
|Errrm, if he fits a solar panel and a Rutland (or similar) controller the
|idea is that the battery will be topped up continuously in daylight hours.
|The problem is that in winter the days will be short, the sun will be of
|much lesser intensity and snowfall or days of low cloud will leave the
|possibility that the panel fails to charge the battery. This is why a
|second source such as a wind generator is a good idea.

Sorry I meant top up with distilled/deionised water.
I lost a leisure battery with zig charge controller through not topping it
up with distilled/deionised water :-(
--
Dave Fawthrop dave hyphenologist co uk Google Groups is IME the *worst*
method of accessing usenet. GG subscribers would be well advised get a
newsreader, say Agent, and a newsserver, say news.individual.net. These
will allow them: to see only *new* posts, a killfile, and other goodies.

On Mon, 19 Jun 2006 13:55:09 +0100, Dave Fawthrop wrote:

On Mon, 19 Jun 2006 09:26:16 +0100, Steve Firth
wrote:

|On Mon, 19 Jun 2006 06:39:41 +0100, Dave Fawthrop wrote:
|
| Leisure batteries (when not maintenance free) require topping up at
| intervals. Insist that your customer tops up the battery at regular
| intervals. 2 monthly should be fine, if you install some sort of charge
| controller.
|
|Errrm, if he fits a solar panel and a Rutland (or similar) controller the
|idea is that the battery will be topped up continuously in daylight hours.
|The problem is that in winter the days will be short, the sun will be of
|much lesser intensity and snowfall or days of low cloud will leave the
|possibility that the panel fails to charge the battery. This is why a
|second source such as a wind generator is a good idea.

Sorry I meant top up with distilled/deionised water.
I lost a leisure battery with zig charge controller through not topping it
up with distilled/deionised water :-(

I'd suspect the charge controller. It sounds like it was boiling the
battery.

For unattended use I'd probably use a relatively expensive spiral cell/gel
Optima battery just for the maintenance free aspect. I actually use an
array of 2V cells sourced from a computer consultancy that was retiring a
massive UPS. They cost peanuts and are simple to maintain.

On Mon, 19 Jun 2006 18:01:19 +0100, Steve Firth
wrote:

|On Mon, 19 Jun 2006 13:55:09 +0100, Dave Fawthrop wrote:
|
| On Mon, 19 Jun 2006 09:26:16 +0100, Steve Firth
| wrote:
|
||On Mon, 19 Jun 2006 06:39:41 +0100, Dave Fawthrop wrote:
||
|| Leisure batteries (when not maintenance free) require topping up at
|| intervals. Insist that your customer tops up the battery at regular
|| intervals. 2 monthly should be fine, if you install some sort of charge
|| controller.
||
||Errrm, if he fits a solar panel and a Rutland (or similar) controller the
||idea is that the battery will be topped up continuously in daylight hours.
||The problem is that in winter the days will be short, the sun will be of
||much lesser intensity and snowfall or days of low cloud will leave the
||possibility that the panel fails to charge the battery. This is why a
||second source such as a wind generator is a good idea.
|
| Sorry I meant top up with distilled/deionised water.
| I lost a leisure battery with zig charge controller through not topping it
| up with distilled/deionised water :-(
|
|I'd suspect the charge controller. It sounds like it was boiling the
|battery.

No I checked the zig charger it worked fine, just the occasional bubble,
but over a year the occasional bubble adds up to quite a lot of water. The
battery I replaced it with works fine after several years, topping up with
deionised water every month or two. Also Sulphuric acid does evaporate,
just like water.
--
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In article ,
Dave Fawthrop wrote:
No I checked the zig charger it worked fine, just the occasional bubble,
but over a year the occasional bubble adds up to quite a lot of water.
The battery I replaced it with works fine after several years, topping
up with deionised water every month or two. Also Sulphuric acid does
evaporate, just like water.

The so called 'sealed' or maintenance free battery in my car is over 4
years old and never been topped up - these days they use a method of
recovering the evaporation. Of course modern car systems don't overcharge
the battery - indeed most don't actually take it to the maximum charge.

--
*What do little birdies see when they get knocked unconscious? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Alec]

Originally Posted by Steve Firth

On Mon, 19 Jun 2006 06:39:41 +0100, Dave Fawthrop wrote:

Leisure batteries (when not maintenance free) require topping up at
intervals. Insist that your customer tops up the battery at regular
intervals. 2 monthly should be fine, if you install some sort of charge
controller.

Errrm, if he fits a solar panel and a Rutland (or similar) controller the
idea is that the battery will be topped up continuously in daylight hours.
The problem is that in winter the days will be short, the sun will be of
much lesser intensity and snowfall or days of low cloud will leave the
possibility that the panel fails to charge the battery. This is why a
second source such as a wind generator is a good idea.

I think we will now use both types of charging system as we now can see flaws in solar only and indeed wind only. I have spoken to some more suppliers with some success so it looks like we may be getting somewhere.Thanks for all the constructive posts.

On Mon, 19 Jun 2006 21:11:12 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

|In article ,
| Dave Fawthrop wrote:
| No I checked the zig charger it worked fine, just the occasional bubble,
| but over a year the occasional bubble adds up to quite a lot of water.
| The battery I replaced it with works fine after several years, topping
| up with deionised water every month or two. Also Sulphuric acid does
| evaporate, just like water.
|
|The so called 'sealed' or maintenance free battery in my car is over 4
|years old and never been topped up - these days they use a method of
|recovering the evaporation. Of course modern car systems don't overcharge
|the battery - indeed most don't actually take it to the maximum charge.

Leisure batteries are normally of the old type. Maintenance free ones are
rare. I did mention them upthread in the original post if you look.
--
Dave Fawthrop dave hyphenologist co uk Google Groups is IME the *worst*
method of accessing usenet. GG subscribers would be well advised get a
newsreader, say Agent, and a newsserver, say news.individual.net. These
will allow them: to see only *new* posts, a killfile, and other goodies.