[Home Guy[_3_]]

About a year ago the motor in my kenmore washing machine was acting up -
buzzing but not turning. I suspected the start capacitor and picked up
a used one for $10 at a local repair shop. These are black, about the
size of a D-cell battery.

The original was 270 - 324 mfd, 110 vac. Model 3348058.

The one I got as a replacement was 189 - 227 mfd, 357021.

Even though I had a capacitance meter at work, I just went out and
picked up the used cap, installed it and bingo - the washing machine
works. That was a year ago.

So more recently, over the past week or two, the motor was acting up
again. It would buzz, I'd bump the machine, and it would start. But
yesterday even bumping / rocking the machine didn't work.

So I took the capacitor out and measured the original and this
replacement. The original measured 298 mdf (micro-farad) and the
replacement was 211. Both numbers pretty much exactly what they should
be according to their labels.

So maybe the problem wasn't / isin't the capacitor - but a centrifugal
contact in the motor? Do these motors have such contacts (start
winding) ?

Or can hand-held digital capacitance meters perform correct measurements
on these big caps?

I'm cross-posting this to alt.hvac, because my question about this
washing machine motor capacitor and how well or accurately a capacitance
meter can measure them if they're bad might also apply to compressor or
fan motors.

As far as I can tell, there is just this one capacitor connected to this
motor, so I don't think there are separate start and run capacitors.

[Tony Hwang]

Home Guy wrote:
About a year ago the motor in my kenmore washing machine was acting up -
buzzing but not turning. I suspected the start capacitor and picked up
a used one for $10 at a local repair shop. These are black, about the
size of a D-cell battery.

The original was 270 - 324 mfd, 110 vac. Model 3348058.

The one I got as a replacement was 189 - 227 mfd, 357021.

Even though I had a capacitance meter at work, I just went out and
picked up the used cap, installed it and bingo - the washing machine
works. That was a year ago.

So more recently, over the past week or two, the motor was acting up
again. It would buzz, I'd bump the machine, and it would start. But
yesterday even bumping / rocking the machine didn't work.

So I took the capacitor out and measured the original and this
replacement. The original measured 298 mdf (micro-farad) and the
replacement was 211. Both numbers pretty much exactly what they should
be according to their labels.

So maybe the problem wasn't / isin't the capacitor - but a centrifugal
contact in the motor? Do these motors have such contacts (start
winding) ?

Or can hand-held digital capacitance meters perform correct measurements
on these big caps?

I'm cross-posting this to alt.hvac, because my question about this
washing machine motor capacitor and how well or accurately a capacitance
meter can measure them if they're bad might also apply to compressor or
fan motors.

As far as I can tell, there is just this one capacitor connected to this
motor, so I don't think there are separate start and run capacitors.

Hi,
Rule of thumb, you don't replace cap. with lesser value. If same one is
not available, use one with larger value. Even tho meter shows it OK,
under voltage in circuit it can go bad.

[Home Guy[_3_]]

Tony Hwang wrote:

Hi,
Rule of thumb, you don't replace cap. with lesser value. If same one
is not available, use one with larger value. Even tho meter shows it
OK, under voltage in circuit it can go bad.

But why could I get the motor to start by bumping the machine?

Are there centrifugal contacts in the motor?

Or was the bump enough to get the spindle turning?

[[email protected]]

I would suspect the starting motor contacts equally likely with the starting capacitor. The mfd value of the replacement capacitor you bought a year ago is apppreciably less than the mfd of the original capacitor, and that would make the starting torque less than the original design. Then, if things get marginal/sticky, the motor might not be able to have enough torques to start. Shaking the machine could provide just enough oompf to get things moving. I would buy the correct value capacitor and try that. At $15 bucks or so, it is much easier than to take things apart to get to the starting contacts on the motor.

[Tony Hwang]

Home Guy wrote:
Tony Hwang wrote:

Hi,
Rule of thumb, you don't replace cap. with lesser value. If same one
is not available, use one with larger value. Even tho meter shows it
OK, under voltage in circuit it can go bad.

But why could I get the motor to start by bumping the machine?

Are there centrifugal contacts in the motor?

Or was the bump enough to get the spindle turning?

Hi,
You're doing the job of the cap.(shifting(leading) current phase)
Motor winding is inductive, with cap. you counter the inductance.
That cap. is called PSC(Phase shift capacitor). Most new appliance,
even garage door opener, vacuum cleaner, furnace blower, nowadays use
smaller more powerful DC motors. DC motor's efficiency is higher than
AC motor using PSC. Also Diesel electric locomotive propulsion is
by DC motor. Diesel engine drives generator, which in turn it drives
DC motor. That is why it is called Diesel electric locomotive.

[Tony Hwang]

wrote:
I would suspect the starting motor contacts equally likely with the starting capacitor. The mfd value of the replacement capacitor you bought a year ago is apppreciably less than the mfd of the original capacitor, and that would make the starting torque less than the original design. Then, if things get marginal/sticky, the motor might not be able to have enough torques to start. Shaking the machine could provide just enough oompf to get things moving. I would buy the correct value capacitor and try that. At $15 bucks or so, it is much easier than to take things apart to get to the starting contacts on the motor.

Hi,
I was surprised to hear OP bought used cap. I'd never do that.

[philo [_2_]]

On 03/03/2014 03:28 PM, Home Guy wrote:
About a year ago the motor in my kenmore washing machine was acting up -
buzzing but not turning. I suspected the start capacitor and picked up
a used one for $10 at a local repair shop. These are black, about the
size of a D-cell battery.

The original was 270 - 324 mfd, 110 vac. Model 3348058.

The one I got as a replacement was 189 - 227 mfd, 357021.

Even though I had a capacitance meter at work, I just went out and
picked up the used cap, installed it and bingo - the washing machine
works. That was a year ago.


Motor start capacitors are internally fused ...occasionally the link can
break but the contacts still touch and will measure OK...but not work
under load.


I worked on industrial equipment for 38 years that had such capacitors
in them...but it's a condition I've only seen a few times.

[micky]

On Mon, 03 Mar 2014 16:28:49 -0500, Home Guy "Home"@Guy. com wrote:


So more recently, over the past week or two, the motor was acting up
again. It would buzz, I'd bump the machine, and it would start.

Are you sure it wasn't running all the time, but the belt was slipping.
That can sound like a hum too iirc.

Before I tightened it, I would give the edge of the drum a shove and
that would start it on the spin cycle. (I think it's a sub-cycle
really. Why is it called a cycle?)

On my Whirlpool I have to tighten the belt every 30 years, but some
belts might loosen more quickly.

But
yesterday even bumping / rocking the machine didn't work.

[Home Guy[_3_]]

Tony Hwang wrote:

I was surprised to hear OP bought used cap. I'd never do that.

Locally, the price of a new cap is around $60. There's no internet
source that after customs/brokerage charges I'm going to get this new
for under $30.

So here's what I've done so far:

Connect both caps in parallel and the meter reads 500 mfd - which is
expected. The original was 300 and the replacement was 200.

Connect both up to the motor - and the machine works (drum turns) when
machine is set to spin cycle. Motor hums (drum doesn't turn) when
machine is set to agitate.

Remove the 200 mfd cap and just connect the original 300 mfd - and get
same result. Spin works, agitate hums.

Swap the caps so that only the 200 mfd is connected, and motor hums with
spin and agitate.

This is with an empty drum. The problem arose while the drum was full
of water, about to start a spin cycle (with the 200 mfd cap).

So are these caps so weak that even combined they don't have the energy
to turn an empty drum set to agitate?

Or is agitate using different windings of the motor, and something else
is going on?

micky wrote:

Are you sure it wasn't running all the time, but the belt was
slipping.

There's no belt in this washing machine. It's direct-drive.

Maybe you're thinking of a dryer.

[philo [_2_]]

On 03/03/2014 07:10 PM, Home Guy wrote:
Tony Hwang wrote:

I was surprised to hear OP bought used cap. I'd never do that.

Locally, the price of a new cap is around $60. There's no internet
source that after customs/brokerage charges I'm going to get this new
for under $30.

S



That price is way out of line ...don't buy it.


Test your capacitor by wiring it in series with a light bulb (100 watt
incandescent)


If it lights, the capacitor is ok

[[email protected]]

On Monday, March 3, 2014 3:28:49 PM UTC-6, Home Guy wrote:
Does the cycle difference spin vs wash)depend on the direction of motor rotation? It's been 20+ years since I worked on a Kenmore washing machine.

[Home Guy[_3_]]

philo wrote:

Test your capacitor by wiring it in series with a light bulb
(100 watt incandescent)

If it lights, the capacitor is ok

Ok, I didn't do that (but would have if the following didn't work).

Turns out that you have to have water in the drum for the agitate to
work.

To make a long story short, I had to hook up both capacitors in parallel
to get the washer to function for all settings and cycles and get no
motor buzzing or stalling.

These are complicated motors with lots of wires, and I thought I was
going to have to dick around with it as in this thread:

http://www.applianceblog.com/mainforums/threads/
35555-Top-Load-Kenmore-WON-T-Agitate-but-WILL-spin-and-pump-Motor-hums-when-it-should-agitate

So I'm using short wires with alligator clips to connect the
capacitors. Tommorrow I'm going to solder them together and finish the
repair.

I'm glad I didn't throw away the original capacitor, and extra glad I
was able to find it...

[nestork]

Home Guy:

If bumping the washer caused it to work properly, I expect your capacitors are OK, but the connections are dirty. I don't believe you have a slipping belt. If you did, your laundry room would be full of smoke and you'd smell burning rubber.

I expect you can find the correct capacitor online for under $10. You may have to import it from the States, but that's no big deal, I import stuff all the time and I can tell you how to fill out the Canadian Border Services B3 form, and the procedure to follow to get it across the border. However, keep in mind that even a $10 item will cost $10 to 20 in shipping costs.

The easiest way to understand how a start capacitor works is to understand that there's no such thing as capacitor start or split phase electric motors that use 3 phase electric power. With three phase electric power you simply arrange the poles around the stator 120 degrees apart and you create a rotating magnetic field.

With 120 volt single phase power, you can normally only create an oscillating magnetic field. To create a rotating magnetic field, you have to use some kind of trick to create a rotating magnetic field for the rotor to follow.

The way this is done with a capacitor start motor is to have two identical windings wired in parallel and arranged at a 90 degree spacing around the stator. So you have North pole of winding 1, South pole of Winding 2, South pole of Winding 1 and North pole of winding 2 all spaced 90 degrees from each other around the stator.

Now, we simply wire a capacitor in series with ONE of those windings.

With a resistor, the current is highest when the AC voltage sine wave is highest, and the current is instantaneously zero when the applied AC voltage sine wave is zero.

With a capacitor in series with the start winding, things are totally different. With a capacitor, the current out of the capacitor (and hence through the start winding) is highest when the RATE OF CHANGE IN VOLTAGE of the applied voltage sine wave is highest, and that occurs on the applied sine wave when the instantaneous voltage is ZERO volts. That is when the voltage is changing from a positive voltage to a negative voltage and vice versa. That's 90 degrees out of phase with the winding that doesn't have a capacitor.

Similarily, with a capacitor in the start winding, the current out of the capacitor (and hence through the start winding) is at a minimum when the applied voltage sine wave is at a maximum or a minimum. That is when one plate of the capacitor is fully energized and the voltage on it is starting to drop, the instantaneous current out of the capacitor will be zero. That's 90 degrees out of phase with the winding that doesn't have a capacitor.

Consequently with the start and run winding wired in parallel, the capacitor in the start winding will have it's current sine wave 90 degrees out of phase with the run winding, and as a result, the magnetic field of the start winding occurs 90 degrees sooner or later than the run winding. And, that's true even though both windings have the same voltage sine wave applied to them.

So, the capacitance of the capacitor you use is important. You can just take one from one motor and use it in another.

There is also another kind of induction motor that doesn't use a capacitor. Instead, in a "split phase" motor, winding #1 will be made with a small number of coils of thick copper wire, and winding #2 will be made with a large number of coils of thin copper wire. Because of the difference in resistance of these coils, they have different resulting impedances, and that results in one coil developing it's magnetic field earlier than the other, and that's what creates the illusion of a rotating magnetic field for the rotor to follow.

In both capacitor start motors and split phase motors, the motor is perfectly happy to turn in the reverse direction if you simply reverse the polarity of one of the windings. So, if you switch the wires going to Winding #1, the motor will start with the same torque, and it'll reach the same operating speed, only it'll be turning backwards. Never reverse the polarity of both windings in an induction motor. That will cause a singularity in the space time continuum with the result that you finish doing the switch before you began, and hence the motor turns in it's original direction again.

Maytag washing machines have a reversing relay that automatically switches the wires going to the run winding. That relay is controlled by the timer, and it reverses the terminals to the run winding so that the motor spins in one direction during the wash cycle (where the agitator oscillates) and in the reverse direction during the spin cycles (where the wash basket spins). Most washing machines use this reversible characteristic of induction motors to reverse the direction of rotation of the motor from the wash cycle to the spin cycle. In Maytag's case the motor turns a belt that causes a pulley to rotate up or down a helical shaft. When the pully rides up the shaft it engages clutches in the transmission that lock the transmission up so that the spinning of the pully directly results in the spinning of the wash basket. And, when the motor reverses direction, that pulley turns the opposite way and rides down the helical shaft to unlock the transmission and allow the rotation of the pulley to cause the oscillation of the agitator.

In a case like this, I think your best bet is to got to a factory authorized Kenmore repair depot to buy your parts. It's true that you'll pay more for each part, but you also get all the expert technical support tossed in free of charge. So, you spend a bit more on parts, but you save all the labour by doing it yourself under the tuteledge of a Kenmore appliance repairman.

[[email protected]]

Ok - So it looks like using the two capacitors in parallel is increasing the starting torque of the motor and all is well(for now). But something is/was/has changed and I wouldn't feel too comfortable.

[Tony Hwang]

wrote:
Ok - So it looks like using the two capacitors in parallel is increasing the starting torque of the motor and all is well(for now). But something is/was/has changed and I wouldn't feel too comfortable.

Hi,
Paralleling them creates a cap. value of sum of two.

[[email protected]]

You can buy the exact replacement he

http://www.hottubwarehouse.com/Motor...FYdgfgodHWQAmg

http://www.newark.com/cornell-dubilier/psu27015a/capacitor-alum-elec-270-324uf/dp/72K6679?mckv=sJAWZe4xc|pcrid|33870213381|plid|&CMP =KNC-GPLA

http://www.galco.com/buy/NTE-Electronics/MSC125V270

http://www.shop.clean-mart.net/Start...-MFD-12112.htm

http://www.refrisource.com/index.php...mart&Itemid=64

[philo]

On 03/03/2014 08:58 PM, Home Guy wrote:
philo wrote:

Test your capacitor by wiring it in series with a light bulb
(100 watt incandescent)

If it lights, the capacitor is ok

Ok, I didn't do that (but would have if the following didn't work).

Turns out that you have to have water in the drum for the agitate to
work.

To make a long story short, I had to hook up both capacitors in parallel
to get the washer to function for all settings and cycles and get no
motor buzzing or stalling.

These are complicated motors with lots of wires, and I thought I was
going to have to dick around with it as in this thread:

http://www.applianceblog.com/mainforums/threads/
35555-Top-Load-Kenmore-WON-T-Agitate-but-WILL-spin-and-pump-Motor-hums-when-it-should-agitate

So I'm using short wires with alligator clips to connect the
capacitors. Tommorrow I'm going to solder them together and finish the
repair.

I'm glad I didn't throw away the original capacitor, and extra glad I
was able to find it...




Hope it stays working.

I have seen capacitors lose value too, but again that is very rare.


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

[Stormin Mormon[_10_]]

On 3/3/2014 11:56 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:
wrote:
Ok - So it looks like using the two capacitors in parallel is
increasing the starting torque of the motor and all is well(for now).
But something is/was/has changed and I wouldn't feel too comfortable.

Hi,
Paralleling them creates a cap. value of sum of two.

Lets see if any math nerds out the The
hippopotomus cap is the sum of the farads
of the other two hides.

Very obscure and dificult to follow
hints at a very old math joke.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

[Stormin Mormon[_10_]]

On 3/3/2014 5:42 PM, Home Guy wrote:

Or was the bump enough to get the spindle turning?


Probably that. Glad you got it running, though.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

[Luke C Feur]

On Monday, March 3, 2014 4:28:49 PM UTC-5, Home Guy wrote:
About a year ago the motor in my kenmore washing machine was acting up -

buzzing but not turning. I suspected the start capacitor and picked up

a used one for $10 at a local repair shop. These are black, about the

size of a D-cell battery.



The original was 270 - 324 mfd, 110 vac. Model 3348058.



The one I got as a replacement was 189 - 227 mfd, 357021.



Even though I had a capacitance meter at work, I just went out and

picked up the used cap, installed it and bingo - the washing machine

works. That was a year ago.



So more recently, over the past week or two, the motor was acting up

again. It would buzz, I'd bump the machine, and it would start. But

yesterday even bumping / rocking the machine didn't work.



So I took the capacitor out and measured the original and this

replacement. The original measured 298 mdf (micro-farad) and the

replacement was 211. Both numbers pretty much exactly what they should

be according to their labels.



So maybe the problem wasn't / isin't the capacitor - but a centrifugal

contact in the motor? Do these motors have such contacts (start

winding) ?



Or can hand-held digital capacitance meters perform correct measurements

on these big caps?



I'm cross-posting this to alt.hvac, because my question about this

washing machine motor capacitor and how well or accurately a capacitance

meter can measure them if they're bad might also apply to compressor or

fan motors.



As far as I can tell, there is just this one capacitor connected to this

motor, so I don't think there are separate start and run capacitors.

My American Standard had capacitor problems. The manufacturer reccommended a kickstart to retain enough jolt.

[micky]

On Tue, 4 Mar 2014 03:58:52 +0100, nestork
wrote:


Home Guy:

If bumping the washer caused it to work properly, I expect your
capacitors are OK, but the connections are dirty. I don't believe you
have a slipping belt. If you did, your laundry room would be full of
smoke and you'd smell burning rubber.

That makes a lot of sense, but somehow I never had any smoke or any
burning rubber smell. For a while, when it was time for the spin
cycle, I guess I would hear a noise and I would go there and push the
basket with my hand to get it started. Either that or I'd just go
check on the machine and find it stuck not yet having spun. I think
it often started the 2nd spin cycle on its own.

When that was getting less reliable, I tried to tighten the belt but did
a bad job. The basket still woulnd't start on its own, but I was able
to push start it again.

A few loads later, I got a jack handle from on old GM car and used that
as a better lever to tighten the belt and it's been fine for about 10 or
more loads now.

I don't understand it but one can't always assume theory is reality --
well maybe it somehow went quickly** from working well to having a belt
so loose it didn't rub, but still grabbed on when I pushed it!! --



and it will only take a minute or two to see if the motor really is not
turning.



Mine is a Sears Whirlpool fwiw. It always agitated properly and did
everything but spin. I was kidding about tightening it again in 30
years. I think some day I will need a new belt.

**I've been away for a couple months at a time. Maybe it loosened then.

[micky]

On Mon, 03 Mar 2014 20:10:21 -0500, Home Guy "Home"@Guy. com wrote:

micky wrote:

Are you sure it wasn't running all the time, but the belt was
slipping.

There's no belt in this washing machine. It's direct-drive.

Maybe you're thinking of a dryer.

No, I was thinking of a washer. You didn't say before that it was
direct drive.