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| Electronic Schematics (alt.binaries.schematics.electronic) A place to show and share your electronics schematic drawings. |
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#1
Posted to alt.binaries.schematics.electronic
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LM78XX schematic from 1978 National Semi Linear Data Book
I have been building spice models to explore some of the
early linear devices shown in this old data book (back when National was so proud of their new stuff that they showed you how they did it). Many do not work by just dropping generic parts into the schematic, without doing some device scaling (that is not always shown). But the LM78xx positive voltage regulator worked fine with no such fiddling. I am trying to understand how the temperature compensated voltage reference and error amplifier works. It is not a structure I recognize as a combination of text book sections, but does quite a lot with a few devices. I have attached a screen capture of the schematic (slightly rearranged from the data book picture , to help me see function), and the LTspice .asc file. The part that has captured my attention is Q8,9,11,13 that I think makes up the heart of the reference voltage generator and error amplifier, all nicely temperature compensated. Does anyone recognize a particular designer's tricks, here? I think this is pretty elegant, if not so obvious. -- Regards, John Popelish Version 4 SHEET 1 1224 928 WIRE -736 -512 -832 -512 WIRE -640 -512 -736 -512 WIRE -448 -512 -640 -512 WIRE 224 -512 -448 -512 WIRE 336 -512 224 -512 WIRE 448 -512 448 -528 WIRE 448 -512 336 -512 WIRE -832 -496 -832 -512 WIRE -640 -496 -640 -512 WIRE -448 -496 -448 -512 WIRE 224 -480 224 -512 WIRE -576 -448 -768 -448 WIRE -544 -448 -576 -448 WIRE -512 -448 -544 -448 WIRE -544 -384 -544 -448 WIRE -448 -384 -448 -400 WIRE -448 -384 -544 -384 WIRE 336 -384 336 -512 WIRE -640 -336 -640 -400 WIRE 32 -336 -640 -336 WIRE 128 -336 32 -336 WIRE 272 -336 128 -336 WIRE 448 -336 448 -512 WIRE 32 -320 32 -336 WIRE 224 -288 224 -400 WIRE 384 -288 336 -288 WIRE 336 -272 336 -288 WIRE 32 -224 32 -240 WIRE 32 -224 -64 -224 WIRE 128 -224 128 -336 WIRE -64 -208 -64 -224 WIRE 224 -176 224 -224 WIRE 224 -176 192 -176 WIRE 240 -176 224 -176 WIRE 336 -176 336 -192 WIRE 336 -176 320 -176 WIRE 448 -176 448 -240 WIRE 448 -176 336 -176 WIRE 32 -160 32 -224 WIRE 448 -144 448 -176 WIRE -544 -112 -544 -384 WIRE -64 -112 -64 -128 WIRE -32 -112 -64 -112 WIRE 128 -48 128 -128 WIRE 128 -48 -256 -48 WIRE 448 -48 448 -64 WIRE 448 -48 128 -48 WIRE 496 -48 448 -48 WIRE 448 -32 448 -48 WIRE -448 16 -448 -384 WIRE -256 16 -256 -48 WIRE -192 64 -384 64 WIRE 448 64 448 48 WIRE 448 64 -192 64 WIRE -544 112 -544 -32 WIRE -448 112 -544 112 WIRE -256 112 -352 112 WIRE -256 128 -256 112 WIRE -448 144 -448 112 WIRE -544 224 -544 112 WIRE -256 224 -256 208 WIRE -160 224 -256 224 WIRE -64 224 -64 -112 WIRE -64 224 -96 224 WIRE -448 272 -448 224 WIRE -448 272 -480 272 WIRE -64 288 -64 224 WIRE -64 288 -160 288 WIRE -736 304 -736 -512 WIRE -448 304 -448 272 WIRE 448 304 448 64 WIRE -256 336 -256 224 WIRE -224 336 -256 336 WIRE -64 336 -64 288 WIRE -832 352 -832 -400 WIRE -800 352 -832 352 WIRE -352 368 -352 112 WIRE -128 384 -160 384 WIRE -160 400 -160 384 WIRE -736 416 -736 400 WIRE -448 416 -448 384 WIRE -416 416 -448 416 WIRE -256 416 -256 336 WIRE -832 464 -832 352 WIRE -640 464 -640 -336 WIRE -448 464 -448 416 WIRE -320 464 -352 464 WIRE -160 496 -160 480 WIRE -96 496 -160 496 WIRE -736 512 -736 496 WIRE -704 512 -736 512 WIRE -544 512 -544 320 WIRE -512 512 -544 512 WIRE -352 512 -352 464 WIRE -96 512 -96 496 WIRE -736 528 -736 512 WIRE -544 528 -544 512 WIRE -256 528 -256 512 WIRE -160 560 -160 496 WIRE -832 624 -832 528 WIRE -736 624 -736 608 WIRE -736 624 -832 624 WIRE -640 624 -640 560 WIRE -640 624 -736 624 WIRE -544 624 -544 608 WIRE -544 624 -640 624 WIRE -448 624 -448 560 WIRE -448 624 -544 624 WIRE -352 624 -352 592 WIRE -352 624 -448 624 WIRE -256 624 -256 608 WIRE -256 624 -352 624 WIRE -96 624 -96 608 WIRE -96 624 -256 624 WIRE -64 624 -64 432 WIRE -64 624 -96 624 WIRE 32 624 32 -64 WIRE 32 624 -64 624 WIRE 448 624 448 384 WIRE 448 624 32 624 WIRE 480 624 448 624 WIRE 448 656 448 624 FLAG 448 656 0 FLAG 448 -528 in FLAG 480 624 ref FLAG 496 -48 out FLAG 528 240 0 FLAG 528 160 out FLAG 528 -384 0 FLAG 528 -464 in SYMBOL res -560 -128 R0 SYMATTR InstName R1 SYMATTR Value 30K SYMBOL res -464 128 R0 SYMATTR InstName R2 SYMATTR Value 1K9 SYMBOL res -464 288 R0 SYMATTR InstName R3 SYMATTR Value 26 SYMBOL res -560 512 R0 SYMATTR InstName R4 SYMATTR Value 1K2 SYMBOL res -368 496 R0 WINDOW 0 -24 24 Left 0 WINDOW 3 -54 66 Left 0 SYMATTR InstName R5 SYMATTR Value 12K1 SYMBOL res -272 512 R0 WINDOW 0 -21 21 Left 0 WINDOW 3 -34 64 Left 0 SYMATTR InstName R6 SYMATTR Value 1K SYMBOL res -272 112 R0 SYMATTR InstName R7 SYMATTR Value 17K SYMBOL res -176 384 R0 SYMATTR InstName R8 SYMATTR Value 4K SYMBOL res -80 -224 R0 WINDOW 0 -37 34 Left 0 WINDOW 3 -35 76 Left 0 SYMATTR InstName R9 SYMATTR Value 4K SYMBOL res 16 -336 R0 WINDOW 0 -45 27 Left 0 WINDOW 3 -37 68 Left 0 SYMATTR InstName R10 SYMATTR Value 1K SYMBOL res -752 400 R0 WINDOW 0 40 40 Left 0 SYMATTR InstName R11 SYMATTR Value 3K4 SYMBOL res -752 512 R0 SYMATTR InstName R12 SYMATTR Value 200 SYMBOL res 208 -496 R0 SYMATTR InstName R13 SYMATTR Value 10K SYMBOL res 336 -192 R90 WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 0 WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 0 SYMATTR InstName R14 SYMATTR Value 230 SYMBOL res 320 -288 R0 SYMATTR InstName R15 SYMATTR Value 2K SYMBOL res 432 -160 R0 SYMATTR InstName R16 SYMATTR Value 300m SYMBOL res 432 -48 R0 SYMATTR InstName R17 SYMATTR Value 910 SYMBOL res 432 288 R0 SYMATTR InstName R18 SYMATTR Value 2K6 SYMBOL cap -160 240 R270 WINDOW 0 32 32 VTop 0 WINDOW 3 0 32 VBottom 0 SYMATTR InstName C1 SYMATTR Value 20p SYMBOL pnp -512 -400 M180 SYMATTR InstName Q1 SYMBOL pnp -768 -400 R180 SYMATTR InstName Q2 SYMBOL pnp -576 -400 R180 SYMATTR InstName Q3 SYMBOL pnp -32 -64 M180 WINDOW 0 56 23 Left 0 WINDOW 3 61 68 Left 0 SYMATTR InstName Q4 SYMBOL npn -800 304 R0 SYMATTR InstName Q5 SYMBOL npn -704 464 R0 SYMATTR InstName Q6 SYMBOL npn 192 -224 M0 SYMATTR InstName Q7 SYMBOL npn -384 16 M0 SYMATTR InstName Q8 SYMBOL npn -480 224 M0 SYMATTR InstName Q9 SYMBOL npn -192 16 M0 SYMATTR InstName Q10 SYMBOL npn -512 464 R0 SYMATTR InstName Q11 SYMBOL npn -416 368 R0 SYMATTR InstName Q12 SYMBOL npn -320 416 R0 SYMATTR InstName Q13 SYMBOL npn -224 288 R0 SYMATTR InstName Q14 SYMBOL npn -160 512 R0 SYMATTR InstName Q15 SYMBOL npn 272 -384 R0 SYMATTR InstName Q16 SYMBOL npn 384 -336 R0 SYMATTR InstName Q17 SYMBOL zener -816 528 R180 WINDOW 0 24 72 Left 0 WINDOW 3 24 0 Left 0 SYMATTR InstName D1 SYMATTR Value BZX84C6V2L SYMBOL zener 240 -224 R180 WINDOW 0 24 72 Left 0 WINDOW 3 24 0 Left 0 SYMATTR InstName D2 SYMATTR Value BZX84C6V2L SYMBOL npn -128 336 R0 SYMATTR InstName Q18 SYMBOL res 512 144 R0 SYMATTR InstName R19 SYMATTR Value 50 SYMBOL voltage 528 -480 R0 WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 0 WINDOW 39 0 0 Left 0 SYMATTR InstName V1 SYMATTR Value PULSE(0 40 0 1) TEXT 536 312 Left 0 !.tran 1 TEXT 184 176 Left 0 ;Vout R17\n5V 910\n6V 1k6\n8V 3k\n10V 4k4 \n12V 5k8\n15V 7k9\n18V 10k\n24V 14k2 |
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#2
Posted to alt.binaries.schematics.electronic
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LM78XX schematic from 1978 National Semi Linear Data Book
On Tue, 05 Aug 2008 08:20:52 -0400, John Popelish
wrote: I have been building spice models to explore some of the early linear devices shown in this old data book (back when National was so proud of their new stuff that they showed you how they did it). Many do not work by just dropping generic parts into the schematic, without doing some device scaling (that is not always shown). But the LM78xx positive voltage regulator worked fine with no such fiddling. I am trying to understand how the temperature compensated voltage reference and error amplifier works. It is not a structure I recognize as a combination of text book sections, but does quite a lot with a few devices. I have attached a screen capture of the schematic (slightly rearranged from the data book picture , to help me see function), and the LTspice .asc file. The part that has captured my attention is Q8,9,11,13 that I think makes up the heart of the reference voltage generator and error amplifier, all nicely temperature compensated. Does anyone recognize a particular designer's tricks, here? I think this is pretty elegant, if not so obvious. Splitting hairs, but the Nat Semi original regulator part numbers were LM104 (204, 304), LM105 (205, 305), 109, 117, 120 etc. The 78xx nomenclature (and pinout) were Eairchild (uA78xx). You're refering to the 'Widlar diode' that was developed and employed in these parts (inventor Robert Widlar). There should be plenty of stuff out there, as it's in most integrated circuit design course notes. Check some of Robert Pease's articles - he assumed the role of 'emperor' or policeman of band-gap' reference implimentation at Nat Semi. The published schematics were never intended to be anything more than conceptual, as the cell device characterisrics and scaling are part of basic reference function and temperature compensation. RL |
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#3
Posted to alt.binaries.schematics.electronic
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LM78XX schematic from 1978 National Semi Linear Data Book
On Tue, 05 Aug 2008 08:20:52 -0400, John Popelish
wrote: I have been building spice models to explore some of the early linear devices shown in this old data book (back when National was so proud of their new stuff that they showed you how they did it). Many do not work by just dropping generic parts into the schematic, without doing some device scaling (that is not always shown). But the LM78xx positive voltage regulator worked fine with no such fiddling. I am trying to understand how the temperature compensated voltage reference and error amplifier works. It is not a structure I recognize as a combination of text book sections, but does quite a lot with a few devices. I have attached a screen capture of the schematic (slightly rearranged from the data book picture , to help me see function), and the LTspice .asc file. The part that has captured my attention is Q8,9,11,13 that I think makes up the heart of the reference voltage generator and error amplifier, all nicely temperature compensated. Does anyone recognize a particular designer's tricks, here? I think this is pretty elegant, if not so obvious. http://www.national.com/rap/Applicat...570,24,00.html |
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#4
Posted to alt.binaries.schematics.electronic
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LM78XX schematic from 1978 National Semi Linear Data Book
legg wrote:
Splitting hairs, but the Nat Semi original regulator part numbers were LM104 (204, 304), LM105 (205, 305), 109, 117, 120 etc. The 78xx nomenclature (and pinout) were Eairchild (uA78xx). Understood. I started with the 78 78 series first, because they are more common, today, and I hoped to make some models I could throw into practical simulations. But I intend to look into the LM140 series, too. You're refering to the 'Widlar diode' that was developed and employed in these parts (inventor Robert Widlar). There should be plenty of stuff out there, as it's in most integrated circuit design course notes. Check some of Robert Pease's articles - he assumed the role of 'emperor' or policeman of band-gap' reference implimentation at Nat Semi. Thanks for the leads. The published schematics were never intended to be anything more than conceptual, as the cell device characterisrics and scaling are part of basic reference function and temperature compensation. Trying to go from the simplified schematics to a working spice model is part of the fun. I found what I think are an error and a scaling omission on the LM79XX schematic before I got it to work, at all. But it is about twice as complicated as the LM78XX schematic. -- Regards, John Popelish |
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#5
Posted to alt.binaries.schematics.electronic
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LM78XX schematic from 1978 National Semi Linear Data Book
legg wrote:
http://www.national.com/rap/Applicat...570,24,00.html Which of the example structures in this reference do you think is most closely related to the one I showed for the LM78XX? None look similar to my not so educated eye. -- Regards, John Popelish |
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#6
Posted to alt.binaries.schematics.electronic
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LM78XX schematic from 1978 National Semi Linear Data Book
On Tue, 05 Aug 2008 09:54:22 -0400, John Popelish
wrote: legg wrote: http://www.national.com/rap/Applicat...570,24,00.html Which of the example structures in this reference do you think is most closely related to the one I showed for the LM78XX? None look similar to my not so educated eye. I think RAP's comments on modelling pitfalls might be more relevant. The bandgap of the simplified LM113 seems more easily visible in 3-term adjustable regulators, even maintaining the 1v22 ref terminal voltage. The fixed regulator actually produces ~4V on it's internal regulation node (jn R17 and R18 of your circuit). Identifying the rich (small) and starved (large) junctions of the actual reference and those of the curve correction circuit is beyond me, but in principle it's R6 current, and the internal amplification of R7/R6 + Vxn, that set up the regulation at this node. Deviations cause the q14/q18 darlington to starve the pass regulator element. RL |
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#7
Posted to alt.binaries.schematics.electronic
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LM78XX schematic from 1978 National Semi Linear Data Book - Linear Voltage Regulators Roy Ferranti APN27.pdf (0/1)
On Tue, 05 Aug 2008 09:54:22 -0400, John Popelish
wrote: legg wrote: http://www.national.com/rap/Applicat...570,24,00.html Which of the example structures in this reference do you think is most closely related to the one I showed for the LM78XX? None look similar to my not so educated eye. I found an example of Band-Gap regulator reference bootstrapping in an old design note from ~'83. This is Ferranti APN-27 by Bill Roy. Figure 3-7 shows a regular bandgap arrangement, while fogure 3-8 shows bootstrapping similar to the 780x series. RL |
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#8
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LM78XX schematic from 1978 National Semi Linear Data Book - Linear Voltage Regulators Roy Ferranti APN27.pdf (1/1)
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#9
Posted to alt.binaries.schematics.electronic
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LM78XX schematic from 1978 National Semi Linear Data Book - LinearVoltage Regulators Roy Ferranti APN27.pdf (0/1)
legg wrote:
John Popelish wrote: http://www.national.com/rap/Applicat...570,24,00.html Which of the example structures in this reference do you think is most closely related to the one I showed for the LM78XX? None look similar to my not so educated eye. I found an example of Band-Gap regulator reference bootstrapping in an old design note from ~'83. This is Ferranti APN-27 by Bill Roy. Figure 3-7 shows a regular bandgap arrangement, while fogure 3-8 shows bootstrapping similar to the 780x series. Thanks for this document. It is rare in its explanation of an internal detail of IC operation. It is the sort of thing I have been looking for in my efforts to understand and model these linear regulators. -- Regards, John Popelish |
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#10
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LM78XX schematic from 1978 National Semi Linear Data Book - Linear Voltage Regulators Roy Ferranti APN27.pdf (0/1)
On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 22:59:46 -0400, John Popelish
wrote: legg wrote: John Popelish wrote: http://www.national.com/rap/Applicat...570,24,00.html Which of the example structures in this reference do you think is most closely related to the one I showed for the LM78XX? None look similar to my not so educated eye. I found an example of Band-Gap regulator reference bootstrapping in an old design note from ~'83. This is Ferranti APN-27 by Bill Roy. Figure 3-7 shows a regular bandgap arrangement, while fogure 3-8 shows bootstrapping similar to the 780x series. Thanks for this document. It is rare in its explanation of an internal detail of IC operation. It is the sort of thing I have been looking for in my efforts to understand and model these linear regulators. For the next few days, the rest of the AN is uploaded to: http://www.magma.ca/~legg/TVS/apn27-01.jpg http://www.magma.ca/~legg/TVS/apn27-02.jpg http://www.magma.ca/~legg/TVS/apn27-03.jpg http://www.magma.ca/~legg/TVS/apn27-04.jpg http://www.magma.ca/~legg/TVS/apn27-05.jpg http://www.magma.ca/~legg/TVS/apn27-06.jpg http://www.magma.ca/~legg/TVS/apn27-07.jpg http://www.magma.ca/~legg/TVS/apn27-08.jpg http://www.magma.ca/~legg/TVS/apn27-09.jpg http://www.magma.ca/~legg/TVS/apn27-10.jpg http://www.magma.ca/~legg/TVS/apn27-11.jpg http://www.magma.ca/~legg/TVS/apn27-12.jpg http://www.magma.ca/~legg/TVS/apn27-13.jpg http://www.magma.ca/~legg/TVS/apn27-14.jpg http://www.magma.ca/~legg/TVS/apn27-15.jpg http://www.magma.ca/~legg/TVS/apn27-16.jpg At 1M a page; couldn't get these smaller without loosing drawing detail, in any format. RL |
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#11
Posted to alt.binaries.schematics.electronic
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LM78XX schematic from 1978 National Semi Linear Data Book - LinearVoltage Regulators Roy Ferranti APN27.pdf (0/1)
legg wrote:
For the next few days, the rest of the AN is uploaded to: http://www.magma.ca/~legg/TVS/apn27-01.jpg http://www.magma.ca/~legg/TVS/apn27-02.jpg http://www.magma.ca/~legg/TVS/apn27-03.jpg http://www.magma.ca/~legg/TVS/apn27-04.jpg http://www.magma.ca/~legg/TVS/apn27-05.jpg http://www.magma.ca/~legg/TVS/apn27-06.jpg http://www.magma.ca/~legg/TVS/apn27-07.jpg http://www.magma.ca/~legg/TVS/apn27-08.jpg http://www.magma.ca/~legg/TVS/apn27-09.jpg http://www.magma.ca/~legg/TVS/apn27-10.jpg http://www.magma.ca/~legg/TVS/apn27-11.jpg http://www.magma.ca/~legg/TVS/apn27-12.jpg http://www.magma.ca/~legg/TVS/apn27-13.jpg http://www.magma.ca/~legg/TVS/apn27-14.jpg http://www.magma.ca/~legg/TVS/apn27-15.jpg http://www.magma.ca/~legg/TVS/apn27-16.jpg At 1M a page; couldn't get these smaller without loosing drawing detail, in any format. Thanks. Got them. For future reference, if you save as GIF or PNG, instead of JPG, you won't get those little fuzzy speckles around the edges of sharp lines. I cleaned those artifacts off, smoothed and broadened the lines, cropped the holes off and saved as 16 level gray scale GIFs, and no page was over 450k. I have attached an example. I have attached an example -- Regards, John Popelish |
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#12
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LM78XX schematic from 1978 National Semi Linear Data Book - LinearVoltage Regulators Roy Ferranti APN27.pdf (0/1)
BobW wrote:
Damn! My server won't let me post even a 4MB file. If I compress the images any more (e.g. to 1MB total file size), it looks terrible. Maybe someone else can give it a try. Anyone?...Anyone?....Bueller? If I lower the resolution of my cleaned up versions, they come out to about 130k per page. Would these help? Attached is page 1. -- Regards, John Popelish |
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#13
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LM78XX schematic from 1978 National Semi Linear Data Book - LinearVoltage Regulators Roy Ferranti APN27.pdf (0/1)
For the benefit of anyone who wants to download these pages,
here, I have decided to upload all the rest of the 16 pages at half resolution (each page about 130k), 1 page per post. -- Regards, John Popelish |
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#14
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LM78XX schematic from 1978 National Semi Linear Data Book - LinearVoltage Regulators Roy Ferranti APN27.pdf (0/1)
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#15
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LM78XX schematic from 1978 National Semi Linear Data Book - LinearVoltage Regulators Roy Ferranti APN27.pdf (0/1)
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#16
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LM78XX schematic from 1978 National Semi Linear Data Book - LinearVoltage Regulators Roy Ferranti APN27.pdf (0/1)
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#17
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LM78XX schematic from 1978 National Semi Linear Data Book - LinearVoltage Regulators Roy Ferranti APN27.pdf (0/1)
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#18
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LM78XX schematic from 1978 National Semi Linear Data Book - LinearVoltage Regulators Roy Ferranti APN27.pdf (0/1)
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#19
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LM78XX schematic from 1978 National Semi Linear Data Book - LinearVoltage Regulators Roy Ferranti APN27.pdf (0/1)
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#20
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LM78XX schematic from 1978 National Semi Linear Data Book - LinearVoltage Regulators Roy Ferranti APN27.pdf (0/1)
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#21
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LM78XX schematic from 1978 National Semi Linear Data Book - LinearVoltage Regulators Roy Ferranti APN27.pdf (0/1)
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#22
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LM78XX schematic from 1978 National Semi Linear Data Book - LinearVoltage Regulators Roy Ferranti APN27.pdf (0/1)
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#23
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LM78XX schematic from 1978 National Semi Linear Data Book - LinearVoltage Regulators Roy Ferranti APN27.pdf (0/1)
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#24
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LM78XX schematic from 1978 National Semi Linear Data Book - LinearVoltage Regulators Roy Ferranti APN27.pdf (0/1)
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#25
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LM78XX schematic from 1978 National Semi Linear Data Book - LinearVoltage Regulators Roy Ferranti APN27.pdf (0/1)
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#26
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LM78XX schematic from 1978 National Semi Linear Data Book - LinearVoltage Regulators Roy Ferranti APN27.pdf (0/1)
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#27
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LM78XX schematic from 1978 National Semi Linear Data Book - LinearVoltage Regulators Roy Ferranti APN27.pdf (0/1)
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#28
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LM78XX schematic from 1978 National Semi Linear Data Book - Linear Voltage Regulators Roy Ferranti APN27.pdf (0/1)
"legg" wrote in message At 1M a page; couldn't get these smaller without loosing drawing detail, in any format. How big would a PDF be? I don't know how their compression compares. -- Reply in group, but if emailing add another zero, and remove the last word. |
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#29
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LM78XX schematic from 1978 National Semi Linear Data Book - LinearVoltage Regulators Roy Ferranti APN27.pdf (0/1)
Tom Del Rosso wrote:
How big would a PDF be? I don't know how their compression compares. My cleaned up, cropped and half size versions are about 1/8th M each, so if the PDF compression factor is about the same as GIF compression, the whole 16 pages should take about 2 M if made with my copies. -- Regards, John Popelish |
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#30
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LM78XX schematic from 1978 National Semi Linear Data Book -Linear Voltage Regulators Roy Ferranti APN27.pdf (0/1)
On 2008-08-22, John Popelish wrote:
Tom Del Rosso wrote: How big would a PDF be? I don't know how their compression compares. My cleaned up, cropped and half size versions are about 1/8th M each, so if the PDF compression factor is about the same as GIF compression, the whole 16 pages should take about 2 M if made with my copies. I did only colour reduction (to 4 colours) and produced a 3.6 meg PDF at the original resolution (down from 11 meg) reducing the number of pixels by 75% got me only a 3% reduction in size. (and it looked ugly when zoomed) PDF lossless compression (deflate based) seems about as good as gif (LZW based). When I used 2 bit EPS files to produce the pdf I got the very close to the same size as the sum of the gifs of the pages. Bye. Jasen |
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#31
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LM78XX schematic from 1978 National Semi Linear Data Book - Linear Voltage Regulators Roy Ferranti APN27.pdf (0/1)
"Jasen Betts" wrote in message news:g8mg8u$hg1$2@gonzo I did only colour reduction (to 4 colours) and produced a 3.6 meg PDF at the original resolution (down from 11 meg) Can they be reduced to 2-color, or doesn't PDF support that? reducing the number of pixels by 75% got me only a 3% reduction in size. (and it looked ugly when zoomed) PDF lossless compression (deflate based) seems about as good as gif (LZW based). When I used 2 bit EPS files to produce the pdf I got the very close to the same size as the sum of the gifs of the pages. Can you post those PDFs please? -- Reply in group, but if emailing add another zero, and remove the last word. |
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#32
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LM78XX schematic from 1978 National Semi Linear Data Book - LinearVoltage Regulators Roy Ferranti APN27.pdf (0/1)
Tom Del Rosso wrote:
"Jasen Betts" wrote in message news:g8mg8u$hg1$2@gonzo I did only colour reduction (to 4 colours) and produced a 3.6 meg PDF at the original resolution (down from 11 meg) Can they be reduced to 2-color, or doesn't PDF support that? A scan of black and white material generally looks awful if reduced to two colors. You need a few shades of gray to smooth out the edges. 4 or 16 shades of gray (2 or 4 bits per pixel) usually is enough to improve appearance a lot. -- Regards, John Popelish |
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#33
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LM78XX schematic from 1978 National Semi Linear Data Book -Linear Voltage Regulators Roy Ferranti APN27.pdf (0/1)
On 2008-08-22, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
"Jasen Betts" wrote in message news:g8mg8u$hg1$2@gonzo I did only colour reduction (to 4 colours) and produced a 3.6 meg PDF at the original resolution (down from 11 meg) Can they be reduced to 2-color, or doesn't PDF support that? I tried that, but it made the edges very harsh looking. and didn't give much gain over 4 colour. reducing the number of pixels by 75% got me only a 3% reduction in size. (and it looked ugly when zoomed) PDF lossless compression (deflate based) seems about as good as gif (LZW based). When I used 2 bit EPS files to produce the pdf I got the very close to the same size as the sum of the gifs of the pages. Can you post those PDFs please? yeah, will do. I've never posted such a large binary i'm just today figuring out how to drive newspost. g8mg8u$hg1$2@gonzo Bye. Jasen |
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#34
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LM78XX schematic from 1978 National Semi Linear Data Book -Linear Voltage Regulators Roy Ferranti APN27.pdf (0/1)
On 2008-08-22, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
"Jasen Betts" wrote in message news:g8mg8u$hg1$2@gonzo I did only colour reduction (to 4 colours) and produced a 3.6 meg PDF at the original resolution (down from 11 meg) Can they be reduced to 2-color, or doesn't PDF support that? I tried that, but it made the edges very harsh looking. and didn't give much gain over 4 colour. reducing the number of pixels by 75% got me only a 3% reduction in size. (and it looked ugly when zoomed) PDF lossless compression (deflate based) seems about as good as gif (LZW based). When I used 2 bit EPS files to produce the pdf I got the very close to the same size as the sum of the gifs of the pages. Can you post those PDFs please? yeah, will do. I've never posted such a large binary i'm just today figuring out how to drive newspost. Bye. Jasen |
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#35
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LM78XX schematic from 1978 National Semi Linear Data Book - Linear Voltage Regulators Roy Ferranti APN27.pdf (0/1)
"Jasen Betts" wrote in message news:g8omji$2qf$1@gonzo On 2008-08-22, Tom Del Rosso wrote: Can you post those PDFs please? yeah, will do. I've never posted such a large binary i'm just today figuring out how to drive newspost. Looks great. Thanks. -- Reply in group, but if emailing add another zero, and remove the last word. |
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#36
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LM78XX schematic from 1978 National Semi Linear Data Book - Linear Voltage Regulators Roy Ferranti APN27.pdf (0/1)
On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 22:22:22 -0400, legg wrote: On Tue, 05 Aug 2008 09:54:22 -0400, John Popelish wrote: legg wrote: http://www.national.com/rap/Applicat...570,24,00.html Which of the example structures in this reference do you think is most closely related to the one I showed for the LM78XX? None look similar to my not so educated eye. I found an example of Band-Gap regulator reference bootstrapping in an old design note from ~'83. This is Ferranti APN-27 by Bill Roy. Figure 3-7 shows a regular bandgap arrangement, while fogure 3-8 shows bootstrapping similar to the 780x series. RL See... http://analog-innovations.com/SED/BandGap.pdf http://analog-innovations.com/SED/BandGapExample.pdf http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Ba...RealSample.pdf http://analog-innovations.com/SED/CA3046-BandGap.pdf I have literally designed over 1000 BandGap references over the years... they vary with process, operating voltage and current, and how fast they can be enabled. Of course I can't show most of them because of NDA restrictions. ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice  480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat || E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | Common Values Common Purpose Common Ignorance |
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#37
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LM78XX schematic from 1978 National Semi Linear Data Book - LinearVoltage Regulators Roy Ferranti APN27.pdf (0/1)
Jim Thompson wrote:
See... http://analog-innovations.com/SED/BandGap.pdf http://analog-innovations.com/SED/BandGapExample.pdf http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Ba...RealSample.pdf http://analog-innovations.com/SED/CA3046-BandGap.pdf I have literally designed over 1000 BandGap references over the years... they vary with process, operating voltage and current, and how fast they can be enabled. Of course I can't show most of them because of NDA restrictions. Thanks for all these examples. It is beginning to look like every time is see an inexplicable glob of transistors in an IC, it turns out to be a bandgap reference. -- Regards, John Popelish |
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#38
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LM78XX schematic from 1978 National Semi Linear Data Book - Linear Voltage Regulators Roy Ferranti APN27.pdf (0/1)
On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 11:59:35 -0400, John Popelish wrote: Jim Thompson wrote: See... http://analog-innovations.com/SED/BandGap.pdf http://analog-innovations.com/SED/BandGapExample.pdf http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Ba...RealSample.pdf http://analog-innovations.com/SED/CA3046-BandGap.pdf I have literally designed over 1000 BandGap references over the years... they vary with process, operating voltage and current, and how fast they can be enabled. Of course I can't show most of them because of NDA restrictions. Thanks for all these examples. It is beginning to look like every time is see an inexplicable glob of transistors in an IC, it turns out to be a bandgap reference. To keep me amused, post schematics, and I'll post a follow-up analysis of how it works ;-) ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice 480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat || E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | Common Values Common Purpose Common Ignorance |
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