Hello All,

First off, note my moniker :^)

Second, please no replies of "buy a jointer." :^)

OK, specific scenario: yellow poplar, 4s4, 1x8. I've cut it to length
(30") and am ready to rip my widths (3"). Laying it on the TS, there
is noticeable twist - I'd say 1/8" to 3/16" across two diagonal corners
(push down one corner, the far opposite rises off the table 1/8-3/16")

So, how big a safety issue is this to go ahead and rip? Blade
guard/splitter/pawls all in-place. I went ahead and did it and got
enough resistance as the board began passing the splitter that I
actually shut the saw down and manually pulled the board back out;
could see that the wood was closing up after the kerf, though it didn't
seem that it would have been enough to cause the resistance I got;
regardless, flipped it end-for-end and completed the cut w/o incident.
The 2nd rip from the ~4-1/2" cutoff went cleanly.

That's the safety question. I DO realize that piece I was cutting for
is now not "perfectly" flat nor with "perfectly" square edge/face
corners. Eh, it might not matter in my specific case, THIS time, for
THIS project. BUT. How much twist do you tolerate before you either
work to correct it, or select different stock?

I fully admit that I'm completely susceptible to TAS - Tool Acquisition
Syndrome. Yet, because my moniker is what it is, I'm far from having
carte blanche from SWMBO :^) Jointer has to wait.

So, where do I go from here? I don't want this to devolve into a "how
flat is flat" debate. I'm just looking for thoughts on how to work
with what I have - TS (GI 50-185L), 3-1/4hp plunge router, CMS, various
bench-top and hand-held sanders.

Thanks,
Chris

When ripping stock like that, keep steady pressure in one area to prevent
the board from rocking back and fourth as it is passing through the blade.
As far as tolerances for twisted wood, it really depends where the board is
going in the project. If it's a cleat or something, I'll let a little warp
go. Anywhere else and I prefer flat as possible. Crooked stuff doesn't fit
together well, and If I'm gonna take the time to build something, I'm gonna
do the best job possible. As a compromise on a jointer, I'd look into a
good hand plane or two, like a Stanley #7 or similiar. These were used for
flattening/jointing boards before power equipment, are still in use, and
readily available at most flea markets, auctions, etc. --dave


"TheNewGuy" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hello All,

First off, note my moniker :^)

Second, please no replies of "buy a jointer." :^)

OK, specific scenario: yellow poplar, 4s4, 1x8. I've cut it to length
(30") and am ready to rip my widths (3"). Laying it on the TS, there
is noticeable twist - I'd say 1/8" to 3/16" across two diagonal corners
(push down one corner, the far opposite rises off the table 1/8-3/16")

So, how big a safety issue is this to go ahead and rip? Blade
guard/splitter/pawls all in-place. I went ahead and did it and got
enough resistance as the board began passing the splitter that I
actually shut the saw down and manually pulled the board back out;
could see that the wood was closing up after the kerf, though it didn't
seem that it would have been enough to cause the resistance I got;
regardless, flipped it end-for-end and completed the cut w/o incident.
The 2nd rip from the ~4-1/2" cutoff went cleanly.

That's the safety question. I DO realize that piece I was cutting for
is now not "perfectly" flat nor with "perfectly" square edge/face
corners. Eh, it might not matter in my specific case, THIS time, for
THIS project. BUT. How much twist do you tolerate before you either
work to correct it, or select different stock?

I fully admit that I'm completely susceptible to TAS - Tool Acquisition
Syndrome. Yet, because my moniker is what it is, I'm far from having
carte blanche from SWMBO :^) Jointer has to wait.

So, where do I go from here? I don't want this to devolve into a "how
flat is flat" debate. I'm just looking for thoughts on how to work
with what I have - TS (GI 50-185L), 3-1/4hp plunge router, CMS, various
bench-top and hand-held sanders.

Thanks,
Chris

In article .com, "TheNewGuy" wrote:
Hello All,

First off, note my moniker :^)

Second, please no replies of "buy a jointer." :^)

Well, OK, but that's the best tool for dealing with it. If your budget or your
shop space won't accomodate a jointer, then get a good hand plane and practice
using it.

OK, specific scenario: yellow poplar, 4s4, 1x8. I've cut it to length
(30") and am ready to rip my widths (3"). Laying it on the TS, there
is noticeable twist - I'd say 1/8" to 3/16" across two diagonal corners
(push down one corner, the far opposite rises off the table 1/8-3/16")

Too much twist for comfortable table saw use IMHO...

So, how big a safety issue is this to go ahead and rip?

Big. As you found out.

Blade guard/splitter/pawls all in-place. I went ahead and did it and got
enough resistance as the board began passing the splitter that I
actually shut the saw down and manually pulled the board back out;
could see that the wood was closing up after the kerf, though it didn't
seem that it would have been enough to cause the resistance I got;
regardless, flipped it end-for-end and completed the cut w/o incident.
The 2nd rip from the ~4-1/2" cutoff went cleanly.

Good thing you did what you did. That was a kickback just waiting to happen.

That's the safety question. I DO realize that piece I was cutting for
is now not "perfectly" flat nor with "perfectly" square edge/face
corners. Eh, it might not matter in my specific case, THIS time, for
THIS project. BUT. How much twist do you tolerate before you either
work to correct it, or select different stock?

None at all if I'm going to run it through the table saw.

If I'm going to rip it on the band saw and then joint it flat before planing
it and taking it to the table saw, the acceptable amount of twist depends on
how thick the rough board is, and how thick I need the finished stock to be.
For example, if the rough board is 1" thick and I need 3/4" finished stock,
then any twist much over 1/8" is unacceptable, regardless of width or length,
because it doesn't leave enough extra for jointing and planing.

I fully admit that I'm completely susceptible to TAS - Tool Acquisition
Syndrome. Yet, because my moniker is what it is, I'm far from having
carte blanche from SWMBO :^) Jointer has to wait.

So, where do I go from here? I don't want this to devolve into a "how
flat is flat" debate. I'm just looking for thoughts on how to work
with what I have - TS (GI 50-185L), 3-1/4hp plunge router, CMS, various
bench-top and hand-held sanders.

Hand plane(s) and a band saw. It's not safe to rip twisted stock on a table
saw.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter
by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
You must use your REAL email address to get a response.

First off, note my moniker :^)

First, get a new moniker; this one's holding you back.

Second, please no replies of "buy a jointer." :^)

Borrow?

OK, specific scenario: yellow poplar, 4s4, 1x8. I've cut it to length
(30") and am ready to rip my widths (3"). Laying it on the TS, there
is noticeable twist - I'd say 1/8" to 3/16" across two diagonal corners
(push down one corner, the far opposite rises off the table 1/8-3/16")

So, how big a safety issue is this to go ahead and rip? Blade
guard/splitter/pawls all in-place. I went ahead and did it and got
enough resistance as the board began passing the splitter that I
actually shut the saw down and manually pulled the board back out;
could see that the wood was closing up after the kerf, though it didn't

I've had straight boards do this to me, too. There were internal stresses
being relieved by removing the material in the kerf, so the opposing sides
were free to move into that space. Like you, I shut down the saw in the
middle of the cut. I took a small piece of slightly
larger-than-kerf-thickness stock and wedged it in the gap. Then I could
start up the saw again and finish the cut. Unlike you, my board wasn't
doing this because of twist, so it wasn't rocking into the blade.

Maybe someone else with more experience can tell me this idea is okay, or
really bad. It didn't "feel" so bad, and gut feeling counts in this
business. I do my best to stand out of the line of fire; I was hit in the
chest by a kickback once, a smallish board maybe six inches long by a screwy
3/4" thickness. It hurt way more than I would have expected, so I'm not
anxious to ever have a repeat performance. Don't fear them, but maintain
your respect for your tools.

The times I have used boards with twist I spent two or three times as much
effort on the project as I would have with straight boards. Now I'm more
willing to pay to have my wood milled at my source, and eventually will
acquire the (power) tools to do it myself. I enjoy my hobby more this way.
Last summer I built a firewood stand out of some twisted PT 2x4s. Thinks
me, "I'll just pull these together with deck screws, no problem." Riiiight.
In one spot the screw just tore into the wood. In another it started to
split a chunk off. I eventually got it all together, but probably used $5
worth of screws and an extra hour of labour. Pretty hard to tell if it was
worth it, monetarily, but I'm not proud of the result.

Sorry for rambling like this. Hope you get something out of it.

- Owen -

Chris,

How much twist is acceptable from a safety standpoint? Or how much
twist is acceptable in your project?

You should keep in mind that a board could have internal stresses. You
could have a board that sits completely flat on your TS before ripping
it only to have 3 twisted boards by the time your done.

I've had good success using a planer to flatten a board
(http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/wvt095.asp). I used this
method to flatten a board in prep for resawing only to end up with two
twisted book-matched panels when I was done. Ho hum.

If you don't have a thickness planer I would go for the hand-planes as
people suggested.

-Miles

In article , Owen Lawrence
wrote:

Second, please no replies of "buy a jointer." :^)

Borrow?

Or rent?

There's a shop here that rents time at (last time I checked a couple of
years ago) $25/hr to use everything except the *big* resaw bandsaw.

--
"The thing about saying the wrong words is that A, I don't notice it, and B,
sometimes orange water gibbon bucket and plastic." -- Mr. Burrows

TheNewGuy wrote:

Hello All,

First off, note my moniker :^)

Second, please no replies of "buy a jointer." :^)

OK, specific scenario: yellow poplar, 4s4, 1x8. I've cut it to length
(30") and am ready to rip my widths (3"). Laying it on the TS, there
is noticeable twist - I'd say 1/8" to 3/16" across two diagonal corners
(push down one corner, the far opposite rises off the table 1/8-3/16")

snip

That's the safety question. I DO realize that piece I was cutting for
is now not "perfectly" flat nor with "perfectly" square edge/face
corners. Eh, it might not matter in my specific case, THIS time, for
THIS project. BUT. How much twist do you tolerate before you either
work to correct it, or select different stock?

Thanks,
Chris

Chris:

PLEASE have a look at at least the first two pages of
this kickback stuff. You dodged a bullet this time.
Please don't press your luck. Bad habits start with
a lucky first experience, and, when it comes to
spinning carbide teeth, can lead to nicknames like
Stubby, Squint or Oh That Poor Man. Wood is
relatively cheap compared to a trip to the emergency
room and the folllow up rehab cost.

http://home.comcast.net/~charliebcz/KickBack1.html

If it don't feel right before you do it take some
time to think things through FIRST. Often there's
a safer way to get it done. Ignoring that little
voice in your head is a bad way to start when
power tools are involved.

KNOWLEDGE IS POWER (but only if you use that
knowledge).

charlie b

http://home.comcast.net/~charliebcz/KickBack1.html

great site - well worth reading Went through all of it. A great
refresher if you know the stuff and even better reading if you don't
know the stuff.

I had one small piece go flying -- once. But rule one is stand to the
side. Since I routinely follow all these rules I was well to the side.
Never could figure out how it happened. Went through everything after
word. Assume vibration moved it a hair and gunk was on the blade. Now I
clean blades before each project and check them before each use.

charlie b wrote:
TheNewGuy wrote:

Hello All,

Chris:

PLEASE have a look at at least the first two pages of
this kickback stuff. You dodged a bullet this time.
Please don't press your luck. Bad habits start with
a lucky first experience, and, when it comes to
spinning carbide teeth, can lead to nicknames like
Stubby, Squint or Oh That Poor Man. Wood is
relatively cheap compared to a trip to the emergency
room and the folllow up rehab cost.

http://home.comcast.net/~charliebcz/KickBack1.html

charlie b

--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek

TheNewGuy wrote:

I fully admit that I'm completely susceptible to TAS - Tool Acquisition
Syndrome. Yet, because my moniker is what it is, I'm far from having
carte blanche from SWMBO :^) Jointer has to wait.

If you don't have a planer or a jointer, buy a jointer. If you have a
planer, you can use some frigged up hack half ass method to simulate
jointing with the planer.

The "buy a hand plane" suggestion is not nearly so simple as it sounds on
the surface.

* buy a hand plane
* learn how to tune it up
* buy sharpening gear
* learn how to sharpen

It was suggested you can find a #7 at a flea market or something, but it
probably ain't that easy. Big planes, jointer planes, are hard to come by.
When you can find one, they're usually significantly expensive. More power
to you if you're the rare exception to this rule.

Then there's the fact that planing twist out of a board with hand planes is
a skill that takes some time to acquire. I bought a mechanical jointer
because I SUCK at this job. Making curlies is fun, but I found ruining
perfectly good wood while acquiring a rather tricky skill was not very
gratifying or encouraging.

I would further suggest that you not buy a benchtop jointer. Suck it up and
buy a real one. I bought a Delta ShopMaster benchtop with aluminum tables,
and it's only slightly better than nothing.

with what I have - TS (GI 50-185L), 3-1/4hp plunge router, CMS, various
bench-top and hand-held sanders.

You can do a fake frigged up hack job of jointing with a router if you have
a router table. I haven't tried it, but it's well-documented.

If I were you, I'd push SWMBO for the jointer anyway though. Once you can
work with real wood (which is IME rarely flat enough, or twistless enough
to go straight into a project) you can impress SWMBO with your new walnut
dingleflootchie or cherry doily oiler or whatever. Being able to escape
from BORG's crappy, overpriced lumber was a real epiphany for me as a
woodworker.

I got there with hand planes initially, sort of, but the material
acquisition curve for equipping yourself with hand planes is pretty steep,
and then they're hard to use for this job. You will still need at least a
plane or three if you don't have a mechanical planer, but you can get by
with a lot less accuracy IME if one side is mechanically flat and both
edges are mechanicall square. (Joint a face, joint an edge to that face,
rip the other edge, then hand plane the remaining edge "close enough.")

Having said all that, my jointer really is a POS that's barely useful. I
really need to replace it with a real one with cast iron tables and a
sufficiently long bed to handle boards longer than 24". Such a beast would
be more weight than my floor can take where I'd have to put it, and I can't
afford one either. I may well wind up having to suck it up and master
jointing by hand before it's all over in spite of everything I just said.
I do NOT recommend one of these benchtop jointers as an answer to this
question. They suck mightily.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

Owen Lawrence wrote:
First off, note my moniker :^)

First, get a new moniker; this one's holding you back.

Nah, it's more just to signal my level of experience in this forum.
I won't let it hold me back.

Second, please no replies of "buy a jointer." :^)

Borrow?

Mmmm, might be a possibility.

actually shut the saw down and manually pulled the board back out;
could see that the wood was closing up after the kerf, though it
didn't

I've had straight boards do this to me, too. There were internal
stresses
being relieved by removing the material in the kerf, so the opposing
sides
were free to move into that space. Like you, I shut down the saw in
the
middle of the cut. I took a small piece of slightly
larger-than-kerf-thickness stock and wedged it in the gap. Then I
could
start up the saw again and finish the cut. Unlike you, my board
wasn't
doing this because of twist, so it wasn't rocking into the blade.

Interesting solution on your part. But illustrates that it can
happen even w/ a "flat" board. Grain, knots, compression/tension. All
sorts of joyous variables.

I do my best to stand out of the line of fire;

As do I.

The times I have used boards with twist I spent two or three times as
much
effort on the project as I would have with straight boards. Now I'm
more
willing to pay to have my wood milled at my source, and eventually
will
acquire the (power) tools to do it myself.

But how do you ensure that what is "flat" when milled will stay that
way? You can't, I don't think. I can buy rough sawn lumber in town at
a place that mills their own (alot of urban reclaimed trees). ... do
you sticker rough sawn that you buy and bring back to your shop? I've
had boards apparently twist after I get them home; I know, differences
in RH/temp. Is there a way to minimize that based on how I store/stack
'til I'm ready to use? Or just buy them essentially right when I'm
ready to start cutting, is probably the right answer.


Sorry for rambling like this. Hope you get something out of it.

No problem at all. I appreciate people taking the time to answer.
-Chris

charlie b wrote:

Chris:

PLEASE have a look at at least the first two pages of
this kickback stuff. You dodged a bullet this time.
http://home.comcast.net/~charliebcz/KickBack1.html

Thanks Charlie. Read it, alot of good stuff I'm familiar with, and
some new things to think about / check.

-Chris

Silvan wrote:
If you don't have a planer or a jointer, buy a jointer.

Yeah, I have neither, and I'm saving for a (non-benchtop!) jointer.

The "buy a hand plane" suggestion is not nearly so simple as it
sounds on
the surface.

I believe that, but it also might be just what I need to do in the
interim.

You can do a fake frigged up hack job of jointing with a router if
you have
a router table. I haven't tried it, but it's well-documented.

Edge jointing, yes, I'm aware, but haven't tried yet. I have some
2s2 pieces that I will be going this route (pun!) on.

Being able to escape
from BORG's crappy, overpriced lumber was a real epiphany for me as a
woodworker.

I know that! Boy, the 2s2 figured sweetgum/liquidambar I got at the
small mom&pop mill was a better deal than the boring 4s4 yellow poplar
from the BORG.

I got there with hand planes initially, sort of, but the material
acquisition curve for equipping yourself with hand planes is pretty
steep,
and then they're hard to use for this job. You will still need at
least a
plane or three if you don't have a mechanical planer, but you can get
by
with a lot less accuracy IME if one side is mechanically flat and
both
edges are mechanicall square. (Joint a face, joint an edge to that
face,
rip the other edge, then hand plane the remaining edge "close
enough.")
I think you meant, "the remaining face," but I got it.

Thanks,
Chris

Dave Jackson wrote:
When ripping stock like that, keep steady pressure in one area to
prevent
the board from rocking back and fourth as it is passing through the
blade.

Thanks for mentioning this, Dave. I forgot to say that I did do this
- before I ripped, I noted the corner of the board nearest to me
(standing left of blade) was naturally "up." I made sure it stayed
that way thru the cut.

As far as tolerances for twisted wood, it really depends where the
board is
going in the project. If it's a cleat or something, I'll let a
little warp
go. Anywhere else and I prefer flat as possible. Crooked stuff
doesn't fit
together well, and If I'm gonna take the time to build something, I'm
gonna
do the best job possible.

All understood. ... and I guess it comes with experience as to what
"flat as possible" is for the application.

-Chris

In article .com, "TheNewGuy" wrote:

But how do you ensure that what is "flat" when milled will stay that
way? You can't, I don't think. I can buy rough sawn lumber in town at
a place that mills their own (alot of urban reclaimed trees). ... do
you sticker rough sawn that you buy and bring back to your shop? I've
had boards apparently twist after I get them home; I know, differences
in RH/temp. Is there a way to minimize that based on how I store/stack
'til I'm ready to use? Or just buy them essentially right when I'm
ready to start cutting, is probably the right answer.

You can't *guarantee* that milled stock will stay flat, but you can sure
improve your chances a whole lot.

Start by selecting stock that's straight-grained, free of defects, and already
reasonably close to straight. If it isn't straight in the pile in the lumber
yard, it isn't going to be straight in your project either. Crazy grain is
often prone to warping. Wood will definitely warp in the vicinity of knots and
other defects; and sometimes defects are caused by internal stresses in the
wood that will cause further movement after the wood is milled.

Quartersawn lumber is much less prone to movement than flatsawn lumber (and
often presents *very* attractive figure besides).

Allow the wood some time to reach equilibrium moisture content (EMC) in your
shop (or in your home, if the humidity in the shop differs considerably from
that in your home) *before* you mill it. In the winter, this may be as little
as a few days; in the summer, it may take several *weeks* before wood brought
from a non-climate-controlled warehouse into an air-conditioned home reaches
EMC. Stack it, stickered, while waiting for this to happen.

When you mill it, leave it about 1/8" over finished thickness and 1/4" to 1/2"
over finished width. Stack it, stickered, again, and wait a week. Any pieces
that have moved substantially in that time should be discarded, because
they'll likely continue to do so. Slight movement (e.g. 1/32" bow in a 3-foot
piece) should be jointed out, and the pieces milled to finished thickness and
width.

Also, while jointing and planing, both in the initial and final phases, remove
approximately equal amounts of wood from each side of the board. That helps to
balance internal stresses, and minimizes the degree of movement.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter
by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
You must use your REAL email address to get a response.

(Snip) - Big planes, jointer planes, are hard to come by.

Heck Silvan, I must be the rare exception. I was out at a few flea markets
last weekend and between several of them, I could have bought a complete set
of Stanley hand planes from a #2 all the way through a #8 with several half
sizes and other scraper planes, scrub planes and spokeshaves, etc. I came
across several #6 and #7 in pre WWII, good condition for around $50. One
#7C was *exceptionally* nice for $75. (I might go back for that one.) Most
of the other ones, #3-#5 good condition, for around $30. The most expensive
one was the #2, at $150. I found plenty to choose from and ended up bringing
home a nice 4 1/2 for $30. You are right in mentioning that it is not easy
as pie to flatten a board in this manner though, little learning curve
there. --dave


"Silvan" wrote in message
...
TheNewGuy wrote:

I fully admit that I'm completely susceptible to TAS - Tool Acquisition
Syndrome. Yet, because my moniker is what it is, I'm far from having
carte blanche from SWMBO :^) Jointer has to wait.

If you don't have a planer or a jointer, buy a jointer. If you have a
planer, you can use some frigged up hack half ass method to simulate
jointing with the planer.

The "buy a hand plane" suggestion is not nearly so simple as it sounds on
the surface.

* buy a hand plane
* learn how to tune it up
* buy sharpening gear
* learn how to sharpen

It was suggested you can find a #7 at a flea market or something, but it
probably ain't that easy. Big planes, jointer planes, are hard to come
by.
When you can find one, they're usually significantly expensive. More
power
to you if you're the rare exception to this rule.

Then there's the fact that planing twist out of a board with hand planes
is
a skill that takes some time to acquire. I bought a mechanical jointer
because I SUCK at this job. Making curlies is fun, but I found ruining
perfectly good wood while acquiring a rather tricky skill was not very
gratifying or encouraging.

I would further suggest that you not buy a benchtop jointer. Suck it up
and
buy a real one. I bought a Delta ShopMaster benchtop with aluminum
tables,
and it's only slightly better than nothing.

with what I have - TS (GI 50-185L), 3-1/4hp plunge router, CMS, various
bench-top and hand-held sanders.

You can do a fake frigged up hack job of jointing with a router if you
have
a router table. I haven't tried it, but it's well-documented.

If I were you, I'd push SWMBO for the jointer anyway though. Once you can
work with real wood (which is IME rarely flat enough, or twistless enough
to go straight into a project) you can impress SWMBO with your new walnut
dingleflootchie or cherry doily oiler or whatever. Being able to escape
from BORG's crappy, overpriced lumber was a real epiphany for me as a
woodworker.

I got there with hand planes initially, sort of, but the material
acquisition curve for equipping yourself with hand planes is pretty steep,
and then they're hard to use for this job. You will still need at least a
plane or three if you don't have a mechanical planer, but you can get by
with a lot less accuracy IME if one side is mechanically flat and both
edges are mechanicall square. (Joint a face, joint an edge to that face,
rip the other edge, then hand plane the remaining edge "close enough.")

Having said all that, my jointer really is a POS that's barely useful. I
really need to replace it with a real one with cast iron tables and a
sufficiently long bed to handle boards longer than 24". Such a beast
would
be more weight than my floor can take where I'd have to put it, and I
can't
afford one either. I may well wind up having to suck it up and master
jointing by hand before it's all over in spite of everything I just said.
I do NOT recommend one of these benchtop jointers as an answer to this
question. They suck mightily.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

Silvan wrote:
If you don't have a planer or a jointer, buy a jointer.

Yeah, I have neither, and I'm saving for a (non-benchtop!) jointer.

The "buy a hand plane" suggestion is not nearly so simple as it
sounds on
the surface.

I believe that, but it also might be just what I need to do in the
interim.

You can do a fake frigged up hack job of jointing with a router if
you have
a router table. I haven't tried it, but it's well-documented.

Edge jointing, yes, I'm aware, but haven't tried yet. I have some
2s2 pieces that I will be going this route (pun!) on.

Being able to escape
from BORG's crappy, overpriced lumber was a real epiphany for me as a
woodworker.

I know that! Boy, the 2s2 figured sweetgum/liquidambar I got at the
small mom&pop mill was a better deal than the boring 4s4 yellow poplar
from the BORG.

I got there with hand planes initially, sort of, but the material
acquisition curve for equipping yourself with hand planes is pretty
steep,
and then they're hard to use for this job. You will still need at
least a
plane or three if you don't have a mechanical planer, but you can get
by
with a lot less accuracy IME if one side is mechanically flat and
both
edges are mechanicall square. (Joint a face, joint an edge to that
face,
rip the other edge, then hand plane the remaining edge "close
enough.")
I think you meant, "the remaining face," but I got it.

Thanks,
Chris

You can't *guarantee* that milled stock will stay flat, but you can sure
improve your chances a whole lot.

Start by selecting stock that's straight-grained, free of defects, and
already
reasonably close to straight. If it isn't straight in the pile in the
lumber
yard, it isn't going to be straight in your project either. Crazy grain is
...
Allow the wood some time to reach equilibrium moisture content (EMC) in
your
shop (or in your home, if the humidity in the shop differs considerably
from
that in your home) *before* you mill it. In the winter, this may be as
little
as a few days; in the summer, it may take several *weeks* before wood
brought
from a non-climate-controlled warehouse into an air-conditioned home
reaches
EMC. Stack it, stickered, while waiting for this to happen.

I've been buying most of my lumber kiln dried, rough cut. The guy I buy
from used to be a wood grader for the government, and I trust his knowledge
of wood implicitly. The first few times I brought my wood home, though, I
stacked it heavily on the floor of my basement shop. Until I make a
woodstand, I've taken to standing my boards vertically. There's just too
much moisture sucking up right through the basement floor, and I've learned
that if I leave my wood near it (not even on it), the boards are going to
warp. Standing them on end has helped a lot.

- Owen -

Chris,
some pieces of advice:
1) don't change your name. You know what your skills are and are
willing to recognize that. That is a rare trait on this NG.

2) I've done lots of pieces before I ever got a jointer and, while I
wouldn't go back to being without a jointer and I have done better
pieces since I've gotten one, I am not convinced that a jointer is THE
essential piece of equipment for woodworking. (I would suggest a list
but then that would derail this thread).

3) You can safely rip a twisted piece on a TS if you mount the piece
to a sled and shim the piece so it can't move. I've done this with an
8 foot, 16 inch wide, 8/4 piece of curly cherry that had a 2 inch
twist in it. Frankly this is a PITA but worth it for the right piece
of wood. A piece of Yellow Poplar, IMO, is NOT the right piece of
wood. Replace it with a flat piece and use the piece you have for
jigs and crap.

4) many wood supply places will not only plane your pieces but usually
have a jointer too and will flatten the board as a service. Unless
you have a quick project that you wanted to get done long before this
thread ever ends I think a trip to a good wood supply store is worth
it because you will be able to get the wood you want and also learn
about your choices for future projects. This is something that will
quickly move you from *_The New Guy_* to yet another wood dork (YAWD).

TWS

TWS wrote:

Chris,

snip

3) You can safely rip a twisted piece on a TS if you mount the piece
to a sled and shim the piece so it can't move. I've done this with an
8 foot, 16 inch wide, 8/4 piece of curly cherry that had a 2 inch
twist in it. Frankly this is a PITA but worth it for the right piece
of wood.

The problem with this "shim it on a sled" methods is that the
resulting ripped edge IS NOT square to the face of the board,
which in turn wasn't flat to begin with. Now if you want to edge
join this piece to another that DOES HAVE a straight edge that
IS square to it's face, or the edge you created is supposed to
butt up against another part - like the bottom of a table top ...
well, you see the problem. It's hard to make rectangles from
trapezoidal parts.

4) many wood supply places will not only plane your pieces but usually
have a jointer too and will flatten the board as a service. Unless
you have a quick project that you wanted to get done long before this
thread ever ends I think a trip to a good wood supply store is worth
it because you will be able to get the wood you want and also learn
about your choices for future projects. This is something that will
quickly move you from *_The New Guy_* to yet another wood dork (YAWD).

Well, maybe. The problem is that wood, unless encased in plastic,
WILL gain or lose moisture and therefore will change dimensions
with changes in temperature and humidity. So, even if you had the
stock milled when you buy it, if you don't make the parts you need
for your project and assemble it "soon", it can bow, twist, cup ...
Once the parts are assembled, the joinery will usually keep things
were they're supposed to stay. But if you wait several weeks
or months to use the wood your supplier milled for you, some
of the previously flat, straight edge boards may not be flat and/or
straight come assembly time.

And THAT's why it's nice to have a way, be it Neander or Normite,
to make flat faces parallel to each other and straight square to the
face edges - when you need them.

charlie b

On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 16:42:49 -0800, charlie b
wrote:

TWS wrote:

Chris,

snip

3) You can safely rip a twisted piece on a TS if you mount the piece
to a sled and shim the piece so it can't move. I've done this with an
8 foot, 16 inch wide, 8/4 piece of curly cherry that had a 2 inch
twist in it. Frankly this is a PITA but worth it for the right piece
of wood.

The problem with this "shim it on a sled" methods is that the
resulting ripped edge IS NOT square to the face of the board,
which in turn wasn't flat to begin with. Now if you want to edge
join this piece to another that DOES HAVE a straight edge that
IS square to it's face, or the edge you created is supposed to
butt up against another part - like the bottom of a table top ...
well, you see the problem.

You are right that you have edges that are not square to the surface
but you still don't have a flat surface to reference to anyway. The
reason for ripping to narrower boards is so you can reduce the twist
to a reasonable amount that you can then trim to flat surface without
losing too much board thickness. After flattening you would obviously
need to do the usual edge treatment to square the edge to the flat
surface and then do your glue ups to reconstruct a wider board.

It's hard to make rectangles from
trapezoidal parts.
No kidding. But it is a heck of lot easier to make a large rectangle
from smaller trapezoids than from one large twisty. For a good
example, see
http://tomstudwell.com/Projects/BarTop/photoalbum.htm


4) many wood supply places will not only plane your pieces but usually
have a jointer too and will flatten the board as a service. Unless
you have a quick project that you wanted to get done long before this
thread ever ends I think a trip to a good wood supply store is worth
it because you will be able to get the wood you want and also learn
about your choices for future projects. This is something that will
quickly move you from *_The New Guy_* to yet another wood dork (YAWD).

Well, maybe. The problem is that wood, unless encased in plastic,
WILL gain or lose moisture and therefore will change dimensions
with changes in temperature and humidity. So, even if you had the
stock milled when you buy it, if you don't make the parts you need
for your project and assemble it "soon", it can bow, twist, cup ...
Once the parts are assembled, the joinery will usually keep things
were they're supposed to stay. But if you wait several weeks
or months to use the wood your supplier milled for you, some
of the previously flat, straight edge boards may not be flat and/or
straight come assembly time.

And THAT's why it's nice to have a way, be it Neander or Normite,
to make flat faces parallel to each other and straight square to the
face edges - when you need them.

charlie b
I won't deny that it's better to have your own tools and the know-how
to make your own flat boards but I'm not going to discourage a NewGuy
by telling him he can't make his bookshelf until he invests several
thousands of dollars in his own equipment. The fact is he can get
flat and square boards from a reputable wood supplier and he should
pursue that and get experience and joy making something before he goes
out and gets tools he doesn't need right away.

TWS

In article , wrote:

You are right that you have edges that are not square to the surface
but you still don't have a flat surface to reference to anyway. The
reason for ripping to narrower boards is so you can reduce the twist
to a reasonable amount that you can then trim to flat surface without
losing too much board thickness.

Right -- but a bandsaw is still a better tool for this than a table saw.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 14:48:52 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , wrote:

You are right that you have edges that are not square to the surface
but you still don't have a flat surface to reference to anyway. The
reason for ripping to narrower boards is so you can reduce the twist
to a reasonable amount that you can then trim to flat surface without
losing too much board thickness.

Right -- but a bandsaw is still a better tool for this than a table saw.
Granted but OP doesn't have a BS. He listed his available tools in
OP. Neither did I when I had to cut that large piece of cherry I cited
in my previous post.

TWS

TWS wrote:
Chris,
some pieces of advice:
1) don't change your name. You know what your skills are and are
willing to recognize that. That is a rare trait on this NG.

Thanks.

2) I've done lots of pieces before I ever got a jointer and, while I
wouldn't go back to being without a jointer and I have done better
pieces since I've gotten one, I am not convinced that a jointer is
THE
essential piece of equipment for woodworking. (I would suggest a list
but then that would derail this thread).

To do a bit of derailing, given what I posted as my current list of
tools, (TS, CMS, router, bench disk/belt sander), I *have* been
figuring a jointer would be the next "essential" powertool (assuming
I'm more Normite than Neander). What would your suggestion be if
different?

3) You can safely rip a twisted piece on a TS if you mount the piece
to a sled and shim the piece so it can't move. [...] Frankly this
is a PITA but worth it for the right piece
of wood. A piece of Yellow Poplar, IMO, is NOT the right piece of
wood.

Understood. And thanks for your candor. This is the type of answer I
was hoping for, "yes, it [ripping twist] has its risks; here they are,
understand them; here's a safe way to do it when you need to."

I'm very safety aware; but I'm also an engineer by training, and so I'm
always looking for solutions, and how to be efficient. "Tossing" a
board because it has some twist..., well, maybe I'm gonna have to learn
how to do that - or recognize when I'm better off doing that.


4) many wood supply places will not only plane your pieces but
usually
have a jointer too and will flatten the board as a service.

I definitely have a couple good wood suppliers in town. But this still
goes back to the Q. I posed to Doug Miller further up the thread - just
because it leaves the supplier flat & straight don't mean it'll stay
that way in my shop! And I gotta learn how to improve my odds there
based on storage.

Thanks again,
Chris

On 7 Feb 2005 15:19:03 -0800, "TheNewGuy"
wrote:


snip

To do a bit of derailing, given what I posted as my current list of
tools, (TS, CMS, router, bench disk/belt sander), I *have* been
figuring a jointer would be the next "essential" powertool (assuming
I'm more Normite than Neander). What would your suggestion be if
different?

Well, think about it. You can't make parallel faces on a board with a
jointer but you can flatten a board with a thickness planer. Edges
are easy with TS and quick pass with a hand plane if necessary.
Soooo, I would go with a thickness planer before a jointer. Takes up
a lot less space when stored away also.

I'm very safety aware; but I'm also an engineer by training, and so I'm
always looking for solutions, and how to be efficient. "Tossing" a
board because it has some twist..., well, maybe I'm gonna have to learn
how to do that - or recognize when I'm better off doing that.

I have to admit it took me a long while before I learned to recognize
the value of tossing a board that was more trouble than I was prepared
to deal with. But if you're not there yet don't toss it - save it for
a time when you think you're prepared to handle it. Just start out
with decent wood for your initial projects.


I definitely have a couple good wood suppliers in town. But this still
goes back to the Q. I posed to Doug Miller further up the thread - just
because it leaves the supplier flat & straight don't mean it'll stay
that way in my shop! And I gotta learn how to improve my odds there
based on storage.

Frankly, until you are in a position to flatten and surface wood I
wouldn't bother storing wood. Get what you need for a project (plus
waste of course) and have some success with your projects.

Also, learn how wood distorts so you don't end up with wood that's
likely to distort after you get it home. There are two main reasons
for distortion: the board has built in stresses that change after you
cut off a piece of it. These changes take place soon after machining.
The other reason is that the makeup of the board has different
absorption characteristics and cups or bends as a result (for example
a mix of sapwood and heartwood).

TWS