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Woodworking (rec.woodworking) Discussion forum covering all aspects of working with wood. All levels of expertise are encouraged to particiapte. |
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#41
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Lew Hodgett writes: It's a neutral. "Neutral" can be a very confusing term. If you're confused by the term "neutral", hire an electrician. Rather than neutral, think of it as an "above ground return". Using the word "ground" to describe the center tap of a transformer is misleading. It is the neutral tap of a multi-tap transformer. It is grounded at some point, but it is not ground, nor is it a "return". |
#42
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DJ Delorie wrote:
If you're confused by the term "neutral", hire an electrician. Could probably find one of my students. Using the word "ground" to describe the center tap of a transformer is misleading. It is the neutral tap of a multi-tap transformer. It is grounded at some point, but it is not ground, nor is it a "return". Go back and reread the post. After that go back and enroll again in EE101, the power option. Lew |
#43
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"Dave" wrote in message news:eRTDd.17273$8l.12748@pd7tw1no... A 20 amp two pole breaker is worth about 15 bucks. Although I agree in principle that the system should run fine on the 30 amp circuit, I wonder whether your warranty would still hold if something happened. The internal wiring on their machine will not be of adequate gauge for 30 amps of current. In the owner's manual they will say that they want a 20 amp circuit, not a 30 amp circuit. Sure, Grizz should have designed the system to internally trip with excess current. But if you blow the motor and Grizz find out that 30 amps were running through the wires, they might find cause to blame you for some of that problem. Changing the breaker is a one-minute job. Cheap insurance. Dave I think you are thinking that the circuit breaker protects the item powered by the circuit. This is not the case. The breaker or fuse protects the wire from being overloaded, not the device. Quite common to plug a 60 watt lamp into a 20 amp circuit. If the lamp developed a short to ground it would hit 20 amps in a big hurry. On a saw, if you were trying to cut through some nasty gnarly sappy wood with a dull blade mounted backwards the thermal cutout would pop to protect the windings on the motor long before it would pop the breaker. -- Roger Shoaf About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then they come up with this striped stuff. |
#44
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Lew Hodgett writes: DJ Delorie wrote: If you're confused by the term "neutral", hire an electrician. Could probably find one of my students. Or the guys who wired my house :-P After that go back and enroll again in EE101, the power option. Sorry, already have an EE degree. I even know how to make transformers from scratch. |
#45
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just remember watts / volts = amps so a 600 watts runing 240 volts = 2.5
amps and so on. you dont need a neutral but I would run a case ground. "LRod" wrote in message ... On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 20:46:07 GMT, "Leon" wrote: "LRod" wrote in message . .. What I'm trying to say (and apparently unsuccesfully) is that *electrically* there is no neutral or need for a neutral in a 240V circuit in North America. All that's needed for a 240V load to work is the two hots. Period. I am not disagreeing with that statement, "There is no need for a Neutral in a 240V circuit in N America." But some what recently there is that 4th wire being used. My house does not have the 4th but the newer ones do. Previousely you indicated that there was NO Neutral in a 240 circuit. I was just trying to clarifiy what the 4th wire was exactly. It's a neutral. That doesn't contradict my original statement given in my previous post. It performs a function that most closely resembles a multiwire circuit. The best way to think of all of this is to not think of "neutral" and "240V" in the same breath (I think I may have mixed a metaphor there). "Neutral" only has meaning at 120V. If there is a neutral wire in a 240V circuit it's because there is some 120V load in the appliance that's being powered. NEC no longer permits the ground wire to perform that function (and rightly so) in new construction. That's why you see 4 wire "240V" circuits. - - LRod Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999 http://www.woodbutcher.net |
#46
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I'd just like to thank everyone again. The saw now
has power. I left the 30 amp breaker. Bought a single outlet rated 20 amps/240 v and a matching plug. It is dedicated to the saw (nothing else can/will be plugged into it). It's a bitch working with that 10 g wire though. The 1023 SL is just humming right along! I haven't put a blade in it yet - still fiddling with the wings & fence. I want to try to get everything as perfect as I can from the get-go. Lou |
#47
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On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 18:06:32 GMT, "neal.don"
wrote: just remember watts / volts = amps so a 600 watts runing 240 volts = 2.5 amps and so on. you dont need a neutral but I would run a case ground. You also should not post in electrical threads. The amount of current draw in a circuit has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with whether a circuit "needs" a neurtral or not. Neutrals are a part of a 120V circuit. They are not an electrically necessary part of a 240V circuit. A "case ground", as you and no one else would put it, has been a requirement for a long time, but as a safety item; it is not electrically necessary. - - LRod Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999 http://www.woodbutcher.net |
#48
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In article , DJ Delorie
wrote: Lew Hodgett writes: DJ Delorie wrote: If you're confused by the term "neutral", hire an electrician. Could probably find one of my students. Or the guys who wired my house :-P After that go back and enroll again in EE101, the power option. Sorry, already have an EE degree. I even know how to make transformers from scratch. I always thought you made transformers from copper and iron :-) |
#49
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On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 18:59:41 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:
In article , DJ Delorie wrote: Lew Hodgett writes: DJ Delorie wrote: If you're confused by the term "neutral", hire an electrician. Could probably find one of my students. Or the guys who wired my house :-P After that go back and enroll again in EE101, the power option. Sorry, already have an EE degree. I even know how to make transformers from scratch. I always thought you made transformers from copper and iron :-) You buy enough copper you'll need plenty of scratch. - - LRod Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999 http://www.woodbutcher.net |
#50
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#51
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A 20 amp two pole breaker is worth about 15 bucks. Although I agree in
principle that the system will run fine on the 30 amp circuit, I wonder whether your warranty would still hold if something happened. The internal wiring and switches on their machine will not be of adequate gauge for 30 amps of current, so if a wiring fault occurs in the saw, the risks may be higher. Sure, Grizz should have designed the system to internally trip with excess current. Also, the resistance and design of the motor should automatically limit the amperage of the circuit. However, suppose that you started a fire caused by excessive current, and your house burned down. Would Grizz be expected to pay? In the owner's manual they say that they want a 20 amp circuit, period. I suspect they don't say 'minimum 20 amp circuit'. So their lawyers could argue that you made a mistake. If you blow the motor and Grizz find out that 30 amps were running through the wires, they might find cause to contest your claim. Changing the breaker is a one-minute job, and you can then say that you followed the owner's manual to the letter. You can always change the breaker back to 30 amp later, if you wired it as a 30 amp circuit. Cheap insurance. Dave "loutent" wrote in message ... I'd just like to thank everyone again. The saw now has power. I left the 30 amp breaker. Bought a single outlet rated 20 amps/240 v and a matching plug. It is dedicated to the saw (nothing else can/will be plugged into it). It's a bitch working with that 10 g wire though. The 1023 SL is just humming right along! I haven't put a blade in it yet - still fiddling with the wings & fence. I want to try to get everything as perfect as I can from the get-go. Lou |
#52
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On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 02:37:10 +0000, Dave wrote:
A 20 amp two pole breaker is worth about 15 bucks. Although I agree in principle that the system will run fine on the 30 amp circuit, I wonder whether your warranty would still hold if something happened. The internal wiring and switches on their machine will not be of adequate gauge for 30 amps of current, so if a wiring fault occurs in the saw, the risks may be higher. Sure, Grizz should have designed the system to internally trip with excess current. Also, the resistance and design of the motor should automatically limit the amperage of the circuit. However, suppose that you started a fire caused by excessive current, and your house burned down. Would Grizz be expected to pay? In the owner's manual they say that they want a 20 amp circuit, period. I suspect they don't say 'minimum 20 amp circuit'. So their lawyers could argue that you made a mistake. If you blow the motor and Grizz find out that 30 amps were running through the wires, they might find cause to contest your claim. Changing the breaker is a one-minute job, and you can then say that you followed the owner's manual to the letter. You can always change the breaker back to 30 amp later, if you wired it as a 30 amp circuit. Cheap insurance. Dave Oh, Dave - A BIG Thank You! After reading your post and realizing the risks I've been taking with all those 60 watt lamps and 1/10th watt alarm clocks plugged into those humongous 15 and 20 amp circuits, I've rushed breathessly around the house and unplugged them all! Gawd only knows the risks we all take on a regular basis by plugging under-utilizing dangerous equipment into over rated outlets!!! Thanks again for saving me from disaster with my insurance company! In eternal debt to you, - Doug -- To escape criticism--do nothing, say nothing, be nothing." (Elbert Hubbard) |
#53
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"Doug Winterburn" wrote in message news On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 02:37:10 +0000, Dave wrote: A 20 amp two pole breaker is worth about 15 bucks. Although I agree in principle that the system will run fine on the 30 amp circuit, I wonder whether your warranty would still hold if something happened. The internal wiring and switches on their machine will not be of adequate gauge for 30 amps of current, so if a wiring fault occurs in the saw, the risks may be higher. Sure, Grizz should have designed the system to internally trip with excess current. Also, the resistance and design of the motor should automatically limit the amperage of the circuit. However, suppose that you started a fire caused by excessive current, and your house burned down. Would Grizz be expected to pay? In the owner's manual they say that they want a 20 amp circuit, period. I suspect they don't say 'minimum 20 amp circuit'. So their lawyers could argue that you made a mistake. If you blow the motor and Grizz find out that 30 amps were running through the wires, they might find cause to contest your claim. Changing the breaker is a one-minute job, and you can then say that you followed the owner's manual to the letter. You can always change the breaker back to 30 amp later, if you wired it as a 30 amp circuit. Cheap insurance. Dave Oh, Dave - A BIG Thank You! After reading your post and realizing the risks I've been taking with all those 60 watt lamps and 1/10th watt alarm clocks plugged into those humongous 15 and 20 amp circuits, I've rushed breathessly around the house and unplugged them all! Gawd only knows the risks we all take on a regular basis by plugging under-utilizing dangerous equipment into over rated outlets!!! Thanks again for saving me from disaster with my insurance company! In eternal debt to you, - Doug Dear Doug, Thankyou for your facetious comment, which I anticipated from someone. Those appliances are all rated to be plugged into 15/20 amp 110v AC outlets. So of course the manufacturers design those appliances with that point in mind, and with appropriate safeguards to protect consumers based on that maximum amperage the appliance could be subject to. However this table saw is designed to be plugged into a 20 amp circuit. Sure, I think it will work fine on a 30 amp circuit, provided there is no short circuit or higher than anticipated draw. I do wonder why Grizz didn't just say that it will work fine with 30 or even 50 amp breakers. But it didn't, maybe for reasons of liability.... Therefore this analogy that you are making is not an accurate comparison. Dave |
#54
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On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 04:42:58 +0000, Dave wrote:
Oh, Dave - A BIG Thank You! After reading your post and realizing the risks I've been taking with all those 60 watt lamps and 1/10th watt alarm clocks plugged into those humongous 15 and 20 amp circuits, I've rushed breathessly around the house and unplugged them all! Gawd only knows the risks we all take on a regular basis by plugging under-utilizing dangerous equipment into over rated outlets!!! Thanks again for saving me from disaster with my insurance company! In eternal debt to you, - Doug Dear Doug, Thankyou for your facetious comment, which I anticipated from someone. Those appliances are all rated to be plugged into 15/20 amp 110v AC outlets. So of course the manufacturers design those appliances with that point in mind, and with appropriate safeguards to protect consumers based on that maximum amperage the appliance could be subject to. However this table saw is designed to be plugged into a 20 amp circuit. Sure, I think it will work fine on a 30 amp circuit, provided there is no short circuit or higher than anticipated draw. I do wonder why Grizz didn't just say that it will work fine with 30 or even 50 amp breakers. But it didn't, maybe for reasons of liability.... Therefore this analogy that you are making is not an accurate comparison. Dear Dave, Breakers are designed to protect the wiring to the load, not the load. All modern motors (load) have thermal breakers integrated to protect the motor. Your friend, - Doug -- To escape criticism--do nothing, say nothing, be nothing." (Elbert Hubbard) |
#55
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On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 02:37:10 GMT, "Dave"
wrote: A 20 amp two pole breaker is worth about 15 bucks. Although I agree in principle that the system will run fine on the 30 amp circuit, I wonder whether your warranty would still hold if something happened. The internal wiring and switches on their machine will not be of adequate gauge for 30 amps of current, so if a wiring fault occurs in the saw, the risks may be higher. Sure, Grizz should have designed the system to internally trip with excess current. Also, the resistance and design of the motor should automatically limit the amperage of the circuit. However, suppose that you started a fire caused by excessive current, and your house burned down. Would Grizz be expected to pay? In the owner's manual they say that they want a 20 amp circuit, period. I suspect they don't say 'minimum 20 amp circuit'. So their lawyers could argue that you made a mistake. If you blow the motor and Grizz find out that 30 amps were running through the wires, they might find cause to contest your claim. Changing the breaker is a one-minute job, and you can then say that you followed the owner's manual to the letter. You can always change the breaker back to 30 amp later, if you wired it as a 30 amp circuit. Cheap insurance. As I said befo Please. You should refrain from offering electrical advice. I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings, but your reply does not reflect the slightest bit of reality with regard to electrical theory, engineering, or legal requirements. - - LRod Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999 http://www.woodbutcher.net |
#56
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Dave wrote:
....A bunch of stuff... Dave, you're way off here. Breakers are sized for the ampacity of the circuit wiring. As long as the total load on the circuit is within the rating, it's just fine and will do it's job as designed. There's no protection for the device itself (in this case the saw) implied by the breaker, simply the protection from overcurrent so that the household wiring does not overheat. |
#57
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The Grizzly saw hookup originally asked about is a 3 wire hookup to
the electrical switch. Hot-Hot-Neutral. If the wire has a white jacket on it, it is a neutral. Ground wires are bare. Beyond that, if you open up your main service panel to your house, there SHOULD be a little green screw run through one edge of the NEUTRAL bar that connects to the back of the service panel, which in turn is connected to the GROUND bar in the service panel. That said in the main service panel there is a completed circuit between neutral and ground in a 4 wire hookup. In sub-panels, the "green screw" is removed and the 4 wires (hot-hot-neutral-ground) are run separately to the main service panel. It's just a formality done so that an electrician can tell it is a sub panel, since back at the main panel the ground and neutral are combined...see above. This is according to current NEC code. So, the whole neutral or ground argument is mute...they connect together back at the panel. Therefore, if it's got a white jacket, call it neutral, if it's bare, call it a ground. Kevin On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 13:36:39 +0000, LRod wrote: On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 02:37:10 GMT, "Dave" wrote: A 20 amp two pole breaker is worth about 15 bucks. Although I agree in principle that the system will run fine on the 30 amp circuit, I wonder whether your warranty would still hold if something happened. The internal wiring and switches on their machine will not be of adequate gauge for 30 amps of current, so if a wiring fault occurs in the saw, the risks may be higher. Sure, Grizz should have designed the system to internally trip with excess current. Also, the resistance and design of the motor should automatically limit the amperage of the circuit. However, suppose that you started a fire caused by excessive current, and your house burned down. Would Grizz be expected to pay? In the owner's manual they say that they want a 20 amp circuit, period. I suspect they don't say 'minimum 20 amp circuit'. So their lawyers could argue that you made a mistake. If you blow the motor and Grizz find out that 30 amps were running through the wires, they might find cause to contest your claim. Changing the breaker is a one-minute job, and you can then say that you followed the owner's manual to the letter. You can always change the breaker back to 30 amp later, if you wired it as a 30 amp circuit. Cheap insurance. As I said befo Please. You should refrain from offering electrical advice. I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings, but your reply does not reflect the slightest bit of reality with regard to electrical theory, engineering, or legal requirements. - - LRod Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999 http://www.woodbutcher.net |
#58
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Kevin Matthews writes:
The Grizzly saw hookup originally asked about is a 3 wire hookup to the electrical switch. Hot-Hot-Neutral. If the wire has a white jacket on it, it is a neutral. Ground wires are bare. Beyond that, if you open up your main service panel to your house, there SHOULD be a little green screw run through one edge of the NEUTRAL bar that connects to the back of the service panel, which in turn is connected to the GROUND bar in the service panel. That said in the main service panel there is a completed circuit between neutral and ground in a 4 wire hookup. In sub-panels, the "green screw" is removed and the 4 wires (hot-hot-neutral-ground) are run separately to the main service panel. It's just a formality done so that an Just a formality? Like Dave, above, you should not be giving electrical advice. electrician can tell it is a sub panel, since back at the main panel the ground and neutral are combined...see above. This is according to current NEC code. While you may have actually looked at the code, you _clearly_ didn't understand it. So, the whole neutral or ground argument is mute...they connect together back at the panel. Therefore, if it's got a white jacket, call it neutral, if it's bare, call it a ground. You couldn't be more wrong. scott |
#59
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Scott Lurndal wrote:
.... So, the whole neutral or ground argument is mute... The word you were looking for is moot. It's too bad you chose to not be mute. |
#60
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Doesn't every electrical question here on the wReck have pretty much the
same effect as a troll? ;-) Patriarch |
#61
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Duane Bozarth writes:
Scott Lurndal wrote: ... So, the whole neutral or ground argument is mute... The word you were looking for is moot. It's too bad you chose to not be mute. Duane, Please be more careful with your attributions. I did not write the statement you have attributed to me. scott |
#62
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Scott Lurndal wrote:
Duane Bozarth writes: Scott Lurndal wrote: ... So, the whole neutral or ground argument is mute... The word you were looking for is moot. It's too bad you chose to not be mute. Duane, Please be more careful with your attributions. I did not write the statement you have attributed to me. scott Sorry, you're correct Scott, my bad...inadvertent, for sure. |
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