http://popularmechanics.mondosearch....ING+ROSARIO +



JOAT
We will never have great leaders as long as we mistake education for
intelligence, ambition for ability, and lack of transgression for
integrity.
- Unknown

On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 22:05:47 -0400, (J T)
wrote:

http://popularmechanics.com/home_imp...ne/index.phtml

What an ugly misbegotten piece of crap !

Have these people never seen a _real_ wooden block plane, or infilled
chariot plane ?

Here's another do-it-yourself plane plan, just in case Andy has some rant
left in him.

http://www.crfinefurniture.com/1pages/sitelinks/howplane.html


On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 22:05:47 -0400, J T wrote:
snip

On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:29:26 +0100, Andy Dingley
wrote:

On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 22:05:47 -0400, (J T)
wrote:

http://popularmechanics.com/home_imp...ne/index.phtml

What an ugly misbegotten piece of crap !

Have these people never seen a _real_ wooden block plane, or infilled
chariot plane ?

Ah, but grasshopper, sometimes the journey is more important than the
destination.

I've seen _real_ tables and other furniture, but I still make my own.
Sometimes my wife even allows me to not burn them, now that I've made
a few.

Why do you make anything in your shop (assuming that you do) when
you've seen _real_ versions of the same thing?

Mike

Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.
"I always wanted to be somebody...I should have been more specific..." - Lily Tomlin

On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 16:47:41 GMT, Buttonhole McGee
wrote:

Here's another do-it-yourself plane plan, just in case Andy has some rant
left in him.

You can have my last rant when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers.

Not so bad this one. I prefer wedges sitting in side grooves rather
than under a pin, and I'd rather have that's solid rather than
built-up, but these both make it much harder to make.

--
Smert' spamionam

On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 13:54:56 -0400, Mike Patterson
wrote:

Why do you make anything in your shop (assuming that you do) when
you've seen _real_ versions of the same thing?

Because mine are better, and sometimes someone is even paying me to do
it.

This is a plane that differs from a few hundred years of
well-established plane designs. Now there's nothing wrong with that,
but in every place they've changed it, they've made it worse.

The iron is a two piece with a cap iron, yet they're both held by a
single screw. You have to release the relative position of the two of
them whenever you move the iron in the sole. Even worse, the cap iron
appears to be _fixed_, and fixed relative to the sole rather than the
iron. How on earth are you supposed to adjust this ?

Lateral location is by a wooden block in the centre of the iron. This
isn't what that slot is for, and it's not good enough to do it. For
one thing, wear of this tiny area on a small wooden plug is going to
wear slack in no time. For another, the torque arm to this tiny
central block means that it will never hold it central as well as an
accurately fitting mouth, or a mouth with screws. This is a laminated
plane body - it's easy to make a tight side-fitting mouth.

After long use (if ever) you won't be able to move the sharpened iron
forwards, because it fouls on the lateral location block.

A Hock iron. Why ? Who are they trying to fool that this lump
deserves a half-decent iron ?

What's with the knob ? That's a drawer pull, intended for two-finger
grip from beneath, not for pressure from above. Why does a plane with
a carved wooden toe even need this ugly wart bolting to it ?

Brass sledge runners ? What on earth are they for, other than
scribing tramlines into your work ?

--
Smert' spamionam

On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:03:40 +0100, Andy Dingley wrote:

You can have my last rant when you pry it from
my cold, dead fingers.

I accept your challenge. Rant away:

http://www.lowes.com/lkn?action=howTo&p=Build/BldHndPln.html

I prefer wedges sitting in side grooves rather than
under a pin

Can you point me to an illustration online? Me not see word pictures in
head.

Wed, Sep 29, 2004, 11:29am (EDT+5)
(Andy=A0Dingley) screams out:
What an ugly misbegotten piece of crap !
Have these people never seen a _real_ wooden block plane, or infilled
chariot plane ?

Ya off you yer meds again Andy? You don't need to make one if you
don't want to, ya know. Looks kinds purty to me, and I figure it'd
probably work. At the least, it'd be a good learning experience - then
it could be put on eBay - make a nice display piece, if nothing else.



JOAT
We will never have great leaders as long as we mistake education for
intelligence, ambition for ability, and lack of transgression for
integrity.
- Unknown

I prefer wedges sitting in side grooves rather than
under a pin

Can you point me to an illustration online? Me not see word pictures in
head.

www.knight-toolworks.com

(G)

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.

Andy Dingley wrote:

On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 13:54:56 -0400, Mike Patterson
wrote:

Why do you make anything in your shop (assuming that you do) when
you've seen _real_ versions of the same thing?

Because mine are better, and sometimes someone is even paying me to do
it.

This is a plane that differs from a few hundred years of
well-established plane designs. Now there's nothing wrong with that,
but in every place they've changed it, they've made it worse.

The iron is a two piece with a cap iron, yet they're both held by a
single screw. You have to release the relative position of the two of
them whenever you move the iron in the sole. Even worse, the cap iron
appears to be _fixed_, and fixed relative to the sole rather than the
iron. How on earth are you supposed to adjust this ?

Lateral location is by a wooden block in the centre of the iron. This
isn't what that slot is for, and it's not good enough to do it. For
one thing, wear of this tiny area on a small wooden plug is going to
wear slack in no time. For another, the torque arm to this tiny
central block means that it will never hold it central as well as an
accurately fitting mouth, or a mouth with screws. This is a laminated
plane body - it's easy to make a tight side-fitting mouth.

After long use (if ever) you won't be able to move the sharpened iron
forwards, because it fouls on the lateral location block.

A Hock iron. Why ? Who are they trying to fool that this lump
deserves a half-decent iron ?

What's with the knob ? That's a drawer pull, intended for two-finger
grip from beneath, not for pressure from above. Why does a plane with
a carved wooden toe even need this ugly wart bolting to it ?

Brass sledge runners ? What on earth are they for, other than
scribing tramlines into your work ?

The thing that I find amusing about it is the set of tools they suggested
that one use to make it. Like someone is going to have a table saw, drill
press, router, band saw, stationary belt and disk sander, contour sander,
machinists vise with anvil, tap-and-die set, files, and lathe, and yet not
already have a satisfactory block plane.

If it was a really good design (from the viewpoint of utility--I'll not
argue the aesthetics--beauty is in the eye of the beholder) it might be
another story, but I think Andy's got the right of it on function.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 04:36:25 +0000, Steve Knight wrote:

I prefer wedges sitting in side grooves rather than under a pin

Can you point me to an illustration online? Me not see word pictures in
head.

www.knight-toolworks.com

(G)

Perfect, Steve. I've drooled over your wares before, but hadn't seen the
"Wooden Plane Tour" on the About Us page - shows exactly what I was
puzzled about.

Perfect, Steve. I've drooled over your wares before, but hadn't seen the
"Wooden Plane Tour" on the About Us page - shows exactly what I was
puzzled about.

I had not liked the pin idea either. hell I could never figure out where to
drill (G)

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.

"J. Clarke" writes:


[...]

The thing that I find amusing about it is the set of tools they suggested
that one use to make it. Like someone is going to have a table saw, drill
press, router, band saw, stationary belt and disk sander, contour sander,
machinists vise with anvil, tap-and-die set, files, and lathe, and yet not
already have a satisfactory block plane.

On the other hand: Making a wooden plane without a plane (or rather a
whole set of them) is extremely difficult and will progress but
slowly, as the planes produced allow for better ones to be made.

My own handmade planes (
http://lisa2.physik.uni-bonn.de/~han...ten/index.html )
were made with a set of wooden planes, a japanese saw, chisels and
mallet.

--
Dr. Juergen Hannappel http://lisa2.physik.uni-bonn.de/~hannappe
Phone: +49 228 73 2447 FAX ... 7869
Physikalisches Institut der Uni Bonn Nussallee 12, D-53115 Bonn, Germany
CERN: Phone: +412276 76461 Fax: ..77930 Bat. 892-R-A13 CH-1211 Geneve 23

On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 20:25:10 +0200, Juergen Hannappel
wrote:

Making a wooden plane without a plane (or rather a
whole set of them) is extremely difficult

Even worse - making a wooden plane not only needs wooden tools like a
"mother" plane, but it may require metal tools like floats (a form of
rasp). Capable woodworkers may be able to make the wooden tools, but
still be thwarted by the metal ones.

--
Smert' spamionam

Juergen Hannappel wrote:

"J. Clarke" writes:


[...]

The thing that I find amusing about it is the set of tools they suggested
that one use to make it. Like someone is going to have a table saw,
drill press, router, band saw, stationary belt and disk sander, contour
sander, machinists vise with anvil, tap-and-die set, files, and lathe,
and yet not already have a satisfactory block plane.

On the other hand: Making a wooden plane without a plane (or rather a
whole set of them) is extremely difficult and will progress but
slowly, as the planes produced allow for better ones to be made.

My own handmade planes (
http://lisa2.physik.uni-bonn.de/~han...ten/index.html )
were made with a set of wooden planes, a japanese saw, chisels and
mallet.

A valid point, but this particular plane does not look to be an improvement
over any decent-quality store-bought plane.

--
Dr. Juergen Hannappel http://lisa2.physik.uni-bonn.de/~hannappe
Phone: +49 228 73 2447 FAX ... 7869
Physikalisches Institut der Uni Bonn Nussallee 12, D-53115 Bonn, Germany
CERN: Phone: +412276 76461 Fax: ..77930 Bat. 892-R-A13 CH-1211 Geneve 23

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 20:25:10 +0200, Juergen Hannappel
wrote:

"J. Clarke" writes:


[...]

The thing that I find amusing about it is the set of tools they suggested
that one use to make it. Like someone is going to have a table saw, drill
press, router, band saw, stationary belt and disk sander, contour sander,
machinists vise with anvil, tap-and-die set, files, and lathe, and yet not
already have a satisfactory block plane.

On the other hand: Making a wooden plane without a plane (or rather a
whole set of them) is extremely difficult and will progress but
slowly, as the planes produced allow for better ones to be made.

My own handmade planes (
http://lisa2.physik.uni-bonn.de/~han...ten/index.html )
were made with a set of wooden planes, a japanese saw, chisels and
mallet.


Very nice -- your insignia is a very nice touch.

--
Dr. Juergen Hannappel http://lisa2.physik.uni-bonn.de/~hannappe
Phone: +49 228 73 2447 FAX ... 7869
Physikalisches Institut der Uni Bonn Nussallee 12, D-53115 Bonn, Germany
CERN: Phone: +412276 76461 Fax: ..77930 Bat. 892-R-A13 CH-1211 Geneve 23

Thu, Sep 30, 2004, 8:25pm (EDT+6)
(Juergen=A0Hannappel) says:
On the other hand: Making a wooden plane without a plane (or rather a
whole set of them) is extremely difficult and will progress but slowly,
as the planes produced allow for better ones to be made.
My own handmade planes (
http://lisa2.physik.uni-bonn.de/~han...ten/index.html ) were
made with a set of wooden planes, a japanese saw, chisels and mallet.

Neat.

I think the bottom line is "making" a plane, doesn't matter how
well it works. Consider it a learning experience, then make another.



JOAT
We will never have great leaders as long as we mistake education for
intelligence, ambition for ability, and lack of transgression for
integrity.
- Unknown

"J. Clarke" wrote:

Juergen Hannappel wrote:

"J. Clarke" writes:


[...]

The thing that I find amusing about it is the set of tools they suggested
that one use to make it. Like someone is going to have a table saw,
drill press, router, band saw, stationary belt and disk sander, contour
sander, machinists vise with anvil, tap-and-die set, files, and lathe,
and yet not already have a satisfactory block plane.

On the other hand: Making a wooden plane without a plane (or rather a
whole set of them) is extremely difficult and will progress but
slowly, as the planes produced allow for better ones to be made.

My own handmade planes (
http://lisa2.physik.uni-bonn.de/~han...ten/index.html )
were made with a set of wooden planes, a japanese saw, chisels and
mallet.

A valid point, but this particular plane does not look to be an improvement
over any decent-quality store-bought plane.

In fact it's safe to say that's almost exactly the opposite of the purpose of
building the plane in the article. It's main purpose is to teach you how to
build wooden planes, not to make superior planes.

Of course if you want to go on and learn to build superior planes you'll get a
good start building that block plane. You'll learn how to do some things, and
get a feel for the general process.

So, no. I don't consider the project at all a waste of time in spite of the
tools the article calls for.

--RC



--
Dr. Juergen Hannappel http://lisa2.physik.uni-bonn.de/~hannappe
Phone: +49 228 73 2447 FAX ... 7869
Physikalisches Institut der Uni Bonn Nussallee 12, D-53115 Bonn, Germany
CERN: Phone: +412276 76461 Fax: ..77930 Bat. 892-R-A13 CH-1211 Geneve 23

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 22:05:50 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

A valid point, but this particular plane does not look to be an improvement
over any decent-quality store-bought plane.

Where can you buy a modern plane like one of these open-sided rebate
planes ? Especially with a 5mm iron ? I have a couple, but they're
both old.

--
Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods

Andy Dingley writes:

On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 22:05:50 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

A valid point, but this particular plane does not look to be an improvement
over any decent-quality store-bought plane.

Where can you buy a modern plane like one of these open-sided rebate
planes ? Especially with a 5mm iron ? I have a couple, but they're
both old.

You can buy them from Steve Knight, but mine were mostly made as an
exercise in plane making (being my first ones), and theyt turned out
to be working well, the only problem i find using them is that if i
plane with a fence that invariably blocks the escapement for the
chips, so actually the next "project" is a plane-mounted fence.

--
Dr. Juergen Hannappel http://lisa2.physik.uni-bonn.de/~hannappe
Phone: +49 228 73 2447 FAX ... 7869
Physikalisches Institut der Uni Bonn Nussallee 12, D-53115 Bonn, Germany
CERN: Phone: +412276 76461 Fax: ..77930 Bat. 892-R-A13 CH-1211 Geneve 23

nothing wrong with making your planes. though myself it was pretty time
consuming to get it really right. not too much money saved in the long run if
you add in the time.

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.

Especially not at your prices, Steve. :-)

--RC

Steve Knight wrote:

nothing wrong with making your planes. though myself it was pretty time
consuming to get it really right. not too much money saved in the long run if
you add in the time.

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.