In rec.woodworking, wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:
In some states you have to get a driver's license and a reverser's
license.
Must be in the backward looking states, like NY or CA.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aox_4-JNed8

Try Punjab.

Elijah
------
hadn't thought of that guy for a couple of years

On Sat, 15 May 2021 13:55:14 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 14 May 2021 23:35:32 -0500, Markem618
wrote:

On Sat, 15 May 2021 00:33:51 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 14 May 2021 22:53:51 -0500, Markem618
wrote:

On Fri, 14 May 2021 23:27:37 -0400, wrote:

Not just Tesla. The "authorities" will be followers, rather like
back-up cameras.

Which can not be used when driving by decree of the law.

Even backwards? ;-)

Do you have a citation? I know of one application where that's one of
the key benefits. There are cameras that (are stitched together to)
"look around" a trailer to show what would be visible in a mirror if
the trailer weren't there. There are also video rearview "mirrors". I
think they're a bad idea because of image distance difference but
that's a different discussion. There are all sorts of other
applications coming down the line for the center console display.

There are things that can't be displayed to the driver when in motion
which is why CarPlay and AndroidAuto disable most apps.

No citation needed

IOW, BS.

No you want to prove it otherwise I am sure you are capable. But I
KNOW that in the USA it is not allowed to use the backup camera as a
rearview while driving.

So take your **** poor response and shove it.

On Sat, 15 May 2021 13:12:09 -0500, Markem618
wrote:

On Sat, 15 May 2021 13:55:14 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 14 May 2021 23:35:32 -0500, Markem618
wrote:

On Sat, 15 May 2021 00:33:51 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 14 May 2021 22:53:51 -0500, Markem618
wrote:

On Fri, 14 May 2021 23:27:37 -0400, wrote:

Not just Tesla. The "authorities" will be followers, rather like
back-up cameras.

Which can not be used when driving by decree of the law.

Even backwards? ;-)

Do you have a citation? I know of one application where that's one of
the key benefits. There are cameras that (are stitched together to)
"look around" a trailer to show what would be visible in a mirror if
the trailer weren't there. There are also video rearview "mirrors". I
think they're a bad idea because of image distance difference but
that's a different discussion. There are all sorts of other
applications coming down the line for the center console display.

There are things that can't be displayed to the driver when in motion
which is why CarPlay and AndroidAuto disable most apps.

No citation needed

IOW, BS.

No you want to prove it otherwise I am sure you are capable. But I
KNOW that in the USA it is not allowed to use the backup camera as a
rearview while driving.

So take your **** poor response and shove it.

You _know_? Do you have a citation to that effect? Actual mirrors
are required to be installed but that is different from banning the
use of cameras for that purpose. In point of fact Kia provides live
view blindspot monitoring on some models, which they would be unable
to do if such things were unlawful. Google "Kia Telluride" and read
through the features.

On Sat, 15 May 2021 14:46:35 -0400, J. Clarke
wrote:

On Sat, 15 May 2021 13:12:09 -0500, Markem618
wrote:

On Sat, 15 May 2021 13:55:14 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 14 May 2021 23:35:32 -0500, Markem618
wrote:

On Sat, 15 May 2021 00:33:51 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 14 May 2021 22:53:51 -0500, Markem618
wrote:

On Fri, 14 May 2021 23:27:37 -0400, wrote:

Not just Tesla. The "authorities" will be followers, rather like
back-up cameras.

Which can not be used when driving by decree of the law.

Even backwards? ;-)

Do you have a citation? I know of one application where that's one of
the key benefits. There are cameras that (are stitched together to)
"look around" a trailer to show what would be visible in a mirror if
the trailer weren't there. There are also video rearview "mirrors". I
think they're a bad idea because of image distance difference but
that's a different discussion. There are all sorts of other
applications coming down the line for the center console display.

There are things that can't be displayed to the driver when in motion
which is why CarPlay and AndroidAuto disable most apps.

No citation needed

IOW, BS.

No you want to prove it otherwise I am sure you are capable. But I
KNOW that in the USA it is not allowed to use the backup camera as a
rearview while driving.

So take your **** poor response and shove it.

You _know_? Do you have a citation to that effect? Actual mirrors
are required to be installed but that is different from banning the
use of cameras for that purpose. In point of fact Kia provides live
view blindspot monitoring on some models, which they would be unable
to do if such things were unlawful. Google "Kia Telluride" and read
through the features.


You really need to jump into it seems you live to be argumentative.

On Sat, 15 May 2021 14:46:35 -0400, J. Clarke
wrote:

On Sat, 15 May 2021 13:12:09 -0500, Markem618
wrote:

On Sat, 15 May 2021 13:55:14 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 14 May 2021 23:35:32 -0500, Markem618
wrote:

On Sat, 15 May 2021 00:33:51 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 14 May 2021 22:53:51 -0500, Markem618
wrote:

On Fri, 14 May 2021 23:27:37 -0400, wrote:

Not just Tesla. The "authorities" will be followers, rather like
back-up cameras.

Which can not be used when driving by decree of the law.

Even backwards? ;-)

Do you have a citation? I know of one application where that's one of
the key benefits. There are cameras that (are stitched together to)
"look around" a trailer to show what would be visible in a mirror if
the trailer weren't there. There are also video rearview "mirrors". I
think they're a bad idea because of image distance difference but
that's a different discussion. There are all sorts of other
applications coming down the line for the center console display.

There are things that can't be displayed to the driver when in motion
which is why CarPlay and AndroidAuto disable most apps.

No citation needed

IOW, BS.

No you want to prove it otherwise I am sure you are capable. But I
KNOW that in the USA it is not allowed to use the backup camera as a
rearview while driving.

So take your **** poor response and shove it.

You _know_? Do you have a citation to that effect? Actual mirrors
are required to be installed but that is different from banning the
use of cameras for that purpose. In point of fact Kia provides live
view blindspot monitoring on some models, which they would be unable
to do if such things were unlawful. Google "Kia Telluride" and read
through the features.


Current Federal regulation do not allow active display in place of
mirror as of August 28 2019.

So Kia if they are doing so might be skirting that Feds.

Now I think it is a silly regulation, reminded every time I get in the
truck, look at the rear view mirror, then put it in reverse. But night
time driving it might not be optimal, the headlights behind you would
probab;ly wash out the display, by overloading the CCD.

On 5/15/2021 10:47 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Leon [email protected] writes:
On 5/14/2021 1:14 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
DerbyDad03 writes:
On Friday, May 14, 2021 at 10:43:46 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:

And yet no body was found in the drivers seat.... The front seat could=20
have been holding the doctors bag and or the attorneys brief case to=20
fool the vehicle into believing some one was in the front drivers seat...

I'm not saying that you're wrong, but *something* deformed the steering=20
wheel and I'm pretty sure that a doctor's bag [do doctors actually carry=20
bags anymore ;-) ] and/or an attorney's briefcase would not:

Good Grief People!

Wait until the NTSB report is available and stop speculating
with zero facts.


Well the NTSB can speculate all it wants but no body in the drivers seat
pretty much explains the crash.

See, that's you speculating that there was no body in the drivers
seat, based on unreliable media reports.

IIRC that was what the fireman said when being interviewed at the scene.
We got a lot of "when it happened" on local media.



NTSB doesn't speculate. They exhaustively analyze all the available
evidence, including the black-box, scene and mechanical remains and
provide recommendations for how to avoid future such accidents based
on a scientifically determined cause.

That's why it takes _months_.

On 5/14/2021 10:27 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 14 May 2021 08:31:14 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Friday, May 14, 2021 at 10:43:46 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 5/13/2021 10:52 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, May 13, 2021 at 9:54:44 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 5/13/2021 7:59 PM, Markem618 wrote:
On Thu, 13 May 2021 20:48:15 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 13 May 2021 10:46:59 -0400, knuttle
wrote:


As you sit in the gas line or are looking for a station with gas, DON"T
you wish your car was powered by on of the small nuclear reactor like
those they have use to power satellites for decades?

I'm not sure I want to be driving around on several pounds of
plutonium.

Yes but they do want you driving around with a load of Lithium. Safer
by a pretty good margin but.

For some maybe. LOL. Take the doctor and his attorney buddy in Houston
a few weeks ago. Left the doctors house in his Tesla with his buddy.
Leaving home and 800 feet later a firey crash into some trees, going 30
mph. The fire department had a difficult time putting those batteries
out once the caught fire.

And an odd side note, no on was in the drivers seat. They found 2
unidentifiable, not even enough for dental records, bodies in the back seat.

From: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...marshal-report

"Teslas vice president of vehicle engineering, Lars Moravy, said Monday on an
earnings call that the company found the steering wheel of the vehicle to be
deformed, leading to the likelihood that someone was in the drivers seat at
the time of the crash.
And yet no body was found in the drivers seat.... The front seat could
have been holding the doctors bag and or the attorneys brief case to
fool the vehicle into believing some one was in the front drivers seat...

I'm not saying that you're wrong, but *something* deformed the steering
wheel and I'm pretty sure that a doctor's bag [do doctors actually carry
bags anymore ;-) ] and/or an attorney's briefcase would not:

1 - Be heavy enough to convince the car that a human was sitting in the seat
2 - Be strong enough or positioned correctly to deform the steering wheel

A 1000F for an hour or two won't deform the steering wheel?

On my Hondas, the weight range to turn on the "Passenger Air Bag Off"
light is somewhere 0 up to 65 lbs. I am assuming (I know, dangerous) that
the Tesla has a higher threshold to determine if a passenger is in the driver's
seat. Heck, I don't even know if it checks, but if it does, I'd bet it's higher than
the weight of the average 10 YO. i.e. much heavier than your average brief case.

If this had happened on NCIS or CSI, there would have been a multiple perfectly
situated security cameras to determine where the occupants were sitting. ;-)
Or they'd build a scale (or maybe even full-sized) model and recreate the
crash to see if the driver could have been knocked into the rear seat by the
impact.

Don't laugh. We're working on cockpit vision to do all sorts of
things, from setting the mirrors (finding the eyes and move the
mirrors accordingly), to distracted/impaired driving (eye-lid
recognition), to adjusting the EQ for your tunes based on where your
ears are. Big brother is watching.

The authorities (or probably Tesla) may even be doing that in this case.

Not just Tesla. The "authorities" will be followers, rather like
back-up cameras.



Actually 40 years ago one of our car salesmen rolled a new Toronado 1
mile from the dealership. It burned after he got out, the steering
wheel was not a normal shape.

On 5/15/2021 1:46 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
On Sat, 15 May 2021 13:12:09 -0500, Markem618
wrote:

On Sat, 15 May 2021 13:55:14 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 14 May 2021 23:35:32 -0500, Markem618
wrote:

On Sat, 15 May 2021 00:33:51 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 14 May 2021 22:53:51 -0500, Markem618
wrote:

On Fri, 14 May 2021 23:27:37 -0400, wrote:

Not just Tesla. The "authorities" will be followers, rather like
back-up cameras.

Which can not be used when driving by decree of the law.

Even backwards? ;-)

Do you have a citation? I know of one application where that's one of
the key benefits. There are cameras that (are stitched together to)
"look around" a trailer to show what would be visible in a mirror if
the trailer weren't there. There are also video rearview "mirrors". I
think they're a bad idea because of image distance difference but
that's a different discussion. There are all sorts of other
applications coming down the line for the center console display.

There are things that can't be displayed to the driver when in motion
which is why CarPlay and AndroidAuto disable most apps.

No citation needed

IOW, BS.

No you want to prove it otherwise I am sure you are capable. But I
KNOW that in the USA it is not allowed to use the backup camera as a
rearview while driving.

So take your **** poor response and shove it.

You _know_? Do you have a citation to that effect? Actual mirrors
are required to be installed but that is different from banning the
use of cameras for that purpose. In point of fact Kia provides live
view blindspot monitoring on some models, which they would be unable
to do if such things were unlawful. Google "Kia Telluride" and read
through the features.




Ram tackled this and IIRC GMC too with an inside rear view mirror that
is a mirror and a rear view camera. Apparently there is a toggle switch
to go between the two.

On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 3:30:11 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 5/14/2021 10:27 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 14 May 2021 08:31:14 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Friday, May 14, 2021 at 10:43:46 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 5/13/2021 10:52 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, May 13, 2021 at 9:54:44 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 5/13/2021 7:59 PM, Markem618 wrote:
On Thu, 13 May 2021 20:48:15 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 13 May 2021 10:46:59 -0400, knuttle
wrote:


As you sit in the gas line or are looking for a station with gas, DON"T
you wish your car was powered by on of the small nuclear reactor like
those they have use to power satellites for decades?

I'm not sure I want to be driving around on several pounds of
plutonium.

Yes but they do want you driving around with a load of Lithium. Safer
by a pretty good margin but.

For some maybe. LOL. Take the doctor and his attorney buddy in Houston
a few weeks ago. Left the doctors house in his Tesla with his buddy..
Leaving home and 800 feet later a firey crash into some trees, going 30
mph. The fire department had a difficult time putting those batteries
out once the caught fire.

And an odd side note, no on was in the drivers seat. They found 2
unidentifiable, not even enough for dental records, bodies in the back seat.

From: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...marshal-report

"Teslas vice president of vehicle engineering, Lars Moravy, said Monday on an
earnings call that the company found the steering wheel of the vehicle to be
deformed, leading to the likelihood that someone was in the drivers seat at
the time of the crash.
And yet no body was found in the drivers seat.... The front seat could
have been holding the doctors bag and or the attorneys brief case to
fool the vehicle into believing some one was in the front drivers seat...

I'm not saying that you're wrong, but *something* deformed the steering
wheel and I'm pretty sure that a doctor's bag [do doctors actually carry
bags anymore ;-) ] and/or an attorney's briefcase would not:

1 - Be heavy enough to convince the car that a human was sitting in the seat
2 - Be strong enough or positioned correctly to deform the steering wheel

A 1000F for an hour or two won't deform the steering wheel?

On my Hondas, the weight range to turn on the "Passenger Air Bag Off"
light is somewhere 0 up to 65 lbs. I am assuming (I know, dangerous) that
the Tesla has a higher threshold to determine if a passenger is in the driver's
seat. Heck, I don't even know if it checks, but if it does, I'd bet it's higher than
the weight of the average 10 YO. i.e. much heavier than your average brief case.

If this had happened on NCIS or CSI, there would have been a multiple perfectly
situated security cameras to determine where the occupants were sitting. ;-)
Or they'd build a scale (or maybe even full-sized) model and recreate the
crash to see if the driver could have been knocked into the rear seat by the
impact.

Don't laugh. We're working on cockpit vision to do all sorts of
things, from setting the mirrors (finding the eyes and move the
mirrors accordingly), to distracted/impaired driving (eye-lid
recognition), to adjusting the EQ for your tunes based on where your
ears are. Big brother is watching.

The authorities (or probably Tesla) may even be doing that in this case.

Not just Tesla. The "authorities" will be followers, rather like
back-up cameras.

Actually 40 years ago one of our car salesmen rolled a new Toronado 1
mile from the dealership. It burned after he got out, the steering
wheel was not a normal shape.

The deformation of a steering wheel caused by heat would not be the same
deformation as caused by impact.

We don't know what type of deformation Moravy was referring to. For all we
know, once the investigation is complete, we may hear that the steering wheel
was deformed in 2 different manners. There could be deformation by impact
with the driver and then by heat once the fire started.

Deform a plastic cup with a hammer. Now deform a plastic cup with a heat
gun. I'll bet that the difference will be very clear even to those untrained
in forensic investigations.

Now take a third plastic cup and beat it with hammer before you heat it up.
I'll bet that it will look different than the other two. That's the type of detail
the investigators will (hopefully) be looking for. e.g. a melted steering wheel
that is also cracked/bent.

No one is denying that heat could have deformed the steering wheel in the
Tesla. However, to note the simple fact that heat can deform a steering wheel
and from that conclude that there was no one in the driver's seat isn't valid. It
leaves out other possible ways that the steering could have been deformed
that might also explain the lack of a body in the driver's seat.

On 5/15/2021 12:33 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 14 May 2021 22:53:51 -0500, Markem618
wrote:

On Fri, 14 May 2021 23:27:37 -0400, wrote:

Not just Tesla. The "authorities" will be followers, rather like
back-up cameras.

Which can not be used when driving by decree of the law.

Even backwards? ;-)

Do you have a citation? I know of one application where that's one of
the key benefits. There are cameras that (are stitched together to)
"look around" a trailer to show what would be visible in a mirror if
the trailer weren't there. There are also video rearview "mirrors". I
think they're a bad idea because of image distance difference but
that's a different discussion. There are all sorts of other
applications coming down the line for the center console display.

There are things that can't be displayed to the driver when in motion
which is why CarPlay and AndroidAuto disable most apps.


I'm on an auto forum and you'd be amazed as some of the questions asked.
How can I play a DVD on the screen? Can I get the Album art to show
in the HUD?

Regulations aside, I'm sure the lawyers have a say in allowable
distractions. "I didn't mean to run over that kid on the bike but the
movie I was watching had a really neat scene I didn't want to miss"

My car has the surround view with four cameras. Cuts out at 12 mph.

On Sat, 15 May 2021 13:12:09 -0500, Markem618
wrote:

On Sat, 15 May 2021 13:55:14 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 14 May 2021 23:35:32 -0500, Markem618
wrote:

On Sat, 15 May 2021 00:33:51 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 14 May 2021 22:53:51 -0500, Markem618
wrote:

On Fri, 14 May 2021 23:27:37 -0400, wrote:

Not just Tesla. The "authorities" will be followers, rather like
back-up cameras.

Which can not be used when driving by decree of the law.

Even backwards? ;-)

Do you have a citation? I know of one application where that's one of
the key benefits. There are cameras that (are stitched together to)
"look around" a trailer to show what would be visible in a mirror if
the trailer weren't there. There are also video rearview "mirrors". I
think they're a bad idea because of image distance difference but
that's a different discussion. There are all sorts of other
applications coming down the line for the center console display.

There are things that can't be displayed to the driver when in motion
which is why CarPlay and AndroidAuto disable most apps.

No citation needed

IOW, BS.

No you want to prove it otherwise I am sure you are capable. But I
KNOW that in the USA it is not allowed to use the backup camera as a
rearview while driving.

Good grief. Any idiot knows a negative can't be proven. You made the
claim. Your job.

So take your **** poor response and shove it.

I see logic isn't your strong suit either.

On Sat, 15 May 2021 14:33:52 -0500, Leon [email protected]
wrote:

On 5/15/2021 1:46 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
On Sat, 15 May 2021 13:12:09 -0500, Markem618
wrote:

On Sat, 15 May 2021 13:55:14 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 14 May 2021 23:35:32 -0500, Markem618
wrote:

On Sat, 15 May 2021 00:33:51 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 14 May 2021 22:53:51 -0500, Markem618
wrote:

On Fri, 14 May 2021 23:27:37 -0400, wrote:

Not just Tesla. The "authorities" will be followers, rather like
back-up cameras.

Which can not be used when driving by decree of the law.

Even backwards? ;-)

Do you have a citation? I know of one application where that's one of
the key benefits. There are cameras that (are stitched together to)
"look around" a trailer to show what would be visible in a mirror if
the trailer weren't there. There are also video rearview "mirrors". I
think they're a bad idea because of image distance difference but
that's a different discussion. There are all sorts of other
applications coming down the line for the center console display.

There are things that can't be displayed to the driver when in motion
which is why CarPlay and AndroidAuto disable most apps.

No citation needed

IOW, BS.

No you want to prove it otherwise I am sure you are capable. But I
KNOW that in the USA it is not allowed to use the backup camera as a
rearview while driving.

So take your **** poor response and shove it.

You _know_? Do you have a citation to that effect? Actual mirrors
are required to be installed but that is different from banning the
use of cameras for that purpose. In point of fact Kia provides live
view blindspot monitoring on some models, which they would be unable
to do if such things were unlawful. Google "Kia Telluride" and read
through the features.




Ram tackled this and IIRC GMC too with an inside rear view mirror that
is a mirror and a rear view camera. Apparently there is a toggle switch
to go between the two.

I don't see what's gained by just substituting a camera/display for a
mirror. It would drive me crazy, and probably everyone else over 40.
The mirror's image plane would be at infinity, as would the image of
the oncoming traffc. The camera/display's image plane would be at the
mirror so would take a major refocus. Refocusing is slow, or
impossible, for us old farts.

On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 11:47:45 AM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Leon [email protected] writes:
On 5/14/2021 1:14 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
DerbyDad03 writes:
On Friday, May 14, 2021 at 10:43:46 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:

And yet no body was found in the drivers seat.... The front seat could=20
have been holding the doctors bag and or the attorneys brief case to=20
fool the vehicle into believing some one was in the front drivers seat...

I'm not saying that you're wrong, but *something* deformed the steering=20
wheel and I'm pretty sure that a doctor's bag [do doctors actually carry=20
bags anymore ;-) ] and/or an attorney's briefcase would not:

Good Grief People!

Wait until the NTSB report is available and stop speculating
with zero facts.


Well the NTSB can speculate all it wants but no body in the drivers seat
pretty much explains the crash.
See, that's you speculating that there was no body in the drivers
seat, based on unreliable media reports.

See, that's you speculating that our speculation is based on unreliable
media reports.

Is it OK if we "speculate" based on the Harris County Fire Marshal's report?

https://assets.bwbx.io/documents/use...DhLtliJpL6k/v0

Page 4, INTERIOR, 2nd paragraph


NTSB doesn't speculate. They exhaustively analyze all the available
evidence, including the black-box, scene and mechanical remains and
provide recommendations for how to avoid future such accidents based
on a scientifically determined cause.

That's why it takes _months_.

On Sat, 15 May 2021 13:55:35 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 3:30:11 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 5/14/2021 10:27 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 14 May 2021 08:31:14 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Friday, May 14, 2021 at 10:43:46 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 5/13/2021 10:52 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, May 13, 2021 at 9:54:44 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 5/13/2021 7:59 PM, Markem618 wrote:
On Thu, 13 May 2021 20:48:15 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 13 May 2021 10:46:59 -0400, knuttle
wrote:


As you sit in the gas line or are looking for a station with gas, DON"T
you wish your car was powered by on of the small nuclear reactor like
those they have use to power satellites for decades?

I'm not sure I want to be driving around on several pounds of
plutonium.

Yes but they do want you driving around with a load of Lithium. Safer
by a pretty good margin but.

For some maybe. LOL. Take the doctor and his attorney buddy in Houston
a few weeks ago. Left the doctors house in his Tesla with his buddy.
Leaving home and 800 feet later a firey crash into some trees, going 30
mph. The fire department had a difficult time putting those batteries
out once the caught fire.

And an odd side note, no on was in the drivers seat. They found 2
unidentifiable, not even enough for dental records, bodies in the back seat.

From: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...marshal-report

"Tesla’s vice president of vehicle engineering, Lars Moravy, said Monday on an
earnings call that the company found the steering wheel of the vehicle to be
deformed, leading to the likelihood that someone was in the driver’s seat at
the time of the crash.
And yet no body was found in the drivers seat.... The front seat could
have been holding the doctors bag and or the attorneys brief case to
fool the vehicle into believing some one was in the front drivers seat...

I'm not saying that you're wrong, but *something* deformed the steering
wheel and I'm pretty sure that a doctor's bag [do doctors actually carry
bags anymore ;-) ] and/or an attorney's briefcase would not:

1 - Be heavy enough to convince the car that a human was sitting in the seat
2 - Be strong enough or positioned correctly to deform the steering wheel

A 1000F for an hour or two won't deform the steering wheel?

On my Hondas, the weight range to turn on the "Passenger Air Bag Off"
light is somewhere 0 up to 65 lbs. I am assuming (I know, dangerous) that
the Tesla has a higher threshold to determine if a passenger is in the driver's
seat. Heck, I don't even know if it checks, but if it does, I'd bet it's higher than
the weight of the average 10 YO. i.e. much heavier than your average brief case.

If this had happened on NCIS or CSI, there would have been a multiple perfectly
situated security cameras to determine where the occupants were sitting. ;-)
Or they'd build a scale (or maybe even full-sized) model and recreate the
crash to see if the driver could have been knocked into the rear seat by the
impact.

Don't laugh. We're working on cockpit vision to do all sorts of
things, from setting the mirrors (finding the eyes and move the
mirrors accordingly), to distracted/impaired driving (eye-lid
recognition), to adjusting the EQ for your tunes based on where your
ears are. Big brother is watching.

The authorities (or probably Tesla) may even be doing that in this case.

Not just Tesla. The "authorities" will be followers, rather like
back-up cameras.

Actually 40 years ago one of our car salesmen rolled a new Toronado 1
mile from the dealership. It burned after he got out, the steering
wheel was not a normal shape.

The deformation of a steering wheel caused by heat would not be the same
deformation as caused by impact.

We don't know what type of deformation Moravy was referring to. For all we
know, once the investigation is complete, we may hear that the steering wheel
was deformed in 2 different manners. There could be deformation by impact
with the driver and then by heat once the fire started.

Deform a plastic cup with a hammer. Now deform a plastic cup with a heat
gun. I'll bet that the difference will be very clear even to those untrained
in forensic investigations.

Now take a third plastic cup and beat it with hammer before you heat it up.
I'll bet that it will look different than the other two. That's the type of detail
the investigators will (hopefully) be looking for. e.g. a melted steering wheel
that is also cracked/bent.

My bet is that if you take a plastic cup and subject it to 1000F for
an hour, you _won't_ be able to tell the difference.

No one is denying that heat could have deformed the steering wheel in the
Tesla. However, to note the simple fact that heat can deform a steering wheel
and from that conclude that there was no one in the driver's seat isn't valid. It
leaves out other possible ways that the steering could have been deformed
that might also explain the lack of a body in the driver's seat.

On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 5:36:11 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 15 May 2021 13:55:35 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 3:30:11 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 5/14/2021 10:27 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 14 May 2021 08:31:14 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Friday, May 14, 2021 at 10:43:46 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 5/13/2021 10:52 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, May 13, 2021 at 9:54:44 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 5/13/2021 7:59 PM, Markem618 wrote:
On Thu, 13 May 2021 20:48:15 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 13 May 2021 10:46:59 -0400, knuttle
wrote:


As you sit in the gas line or are looking for a station with gas, DON"T
you wish your car was powered by on of the small nuclear reactor like
those they have use to power satellites for decades?

I'm not sure I want to be driving around on several pounds of
plutonium.

Yes but they do want you driving around with a load of Lithium. Safer
by a pretty good margin but.

For some maybe. LOL. Take the doctor and his attorney buddy in Houston
a few weeks ago. Left the doctors house in his Tesla with his buddy.
Leaving home and 800 feet later a firey crash into some trees, going 30
mph. The fire department had a difficult time putting those batteries
out once the caught fire.

And an odd side note, no on was in the drivers seat. They found 2
unidentifiable, not even enough for dental records, bodies in the back seat.

From: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...marshal-report

"Teslas vice president of vehicle engineering, Lars Moravy, said Monday on an
earnings call that the company found the steering wheel of the vehicle to be
deformed, leading to the likelihood that someone was in the drivers seat at
the time of the crash.
And yet no body was found in the drivers seat.... The front seat could
have been holding the doctors bag and or the attorneys brief case to
fool the vehicle into believing some one was in the front drivers seat...

I'm not saying that you're wrong, but *something* deformed the steering
wheel and I'm pretty sure that a doctor's bag [do doctors actually carry
bags anymore ;-) ] and/or an attorney's briefcase would not:

1 - Be heavy enough to convince the car that a human was sitting in the seat
2 - Be strong enough or positioned correctly to deform the steering wheel

A 1000F for an hour or two won't deform the steering wheel?

On my Hondas, the weight range to turn on the "Passenger Air Bag Off"
light is somewhere 0 up to 65 lbs. I am assuming (I know, dangerous) that
the Tesla has a higher threshold to determine if a passenger is in the driver's
seat. Heck, I don't even know if it checks, but if it does, I'd bet it's higher than
the weight of the average 10 YO. i.e. much heavier than your average brief case.

If this had happened on NCIS or CSI, there would have been a multiple perfectly
situated security cameras to determine where the occupants were sitting. ;-)
Or they'd build a scale (or maybe even full-sized) model and recreate the
crash to see if the driver could have been knocked into the rear seat by the
impact.

Don't laugh. We're working on cockpit vision to do all sorts of
things, from setting the mirrors (finding the eyes and move the
mirrors accordingly), to distracted/impaired driving (eye-lid
recognition), to adjusting the EQ for your tunes based on where your
ears are. Big brother is watching.

The authorities (or probably Tesla) may even be doing that in this case.

Not just Tesla. The "authorities" will be followers, rather like
back-up cameras.

Actually 40 years ago one of our car salesmen rolled a new Toronado 1
mile from the dealership. It burned after he got out, the steering
wheel was not a normal shape.

The deformation of a steering wheel caused by heat would not be the same
deformation as caused by impact.

We don't know what type of deformation Moravy was referring to. For all we
know, once the investigation is complete, we may hear that the steering wheel
was deformed in 2 different manners. There could be deformation by impact
with the driver and then by heat once the fire started.

Deform a plastic cup with a hammer. Now deform a plastic cup with a heat
gun. I'll bet that the difference will be very clear even to those untrained
in forensic investigations.

Now take a third plastic cup and beat it with hammer before you heat it up.
I'll bet that it will look different than the other two. That's the type of detail
the investigators will (hopefully) be looking for. e.g. a melted steering wheel
that is also cracked/bent.
My bet is that if you take a plastic cup and subject it to 1000F for
an hour, you _won't_ be able to tell the difference.

Please tell that I don't need to explain how ridiculously irrelevant that comment is.


No one is denying that heat could have deformed the steering wheel in the
Tesla. However, to note the simple fact that heat can deform a steering wheel
and from that conclude that there was no one in the driver's seat isn't valid. It
leaves out other possible ways that the steering could have been deformed
that might also explain the lack of a body in the driver's seat.

On Sat, 15 May 2021 17:20:35 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 15 May 2021 13:12:09 -0500, Markem618
wrote:

On Sat, 15 May 2021 13:55:14 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 14 May 2021 23:35:32 -0500, Markem618
wrote:

On Sat, 15 May 2021 00:33:51 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 14 May 2021 22:53:51 -0500, Markem618
wrote:

On Fri, 14 May 2021 23:27:37 -0400, wrote:

Not just Tesla. The "authorities" will be followers, rather like
back-up cameras.

Which can not be used when driving by decree of the law.

Even backwards? ;-)

Do you have a citation? I know of one application where that's one of
the key benefits. There are cameras that (are stitched together to)
"look around" a trailer to show what would be visible in a mirror if
the trailer weren't there. There are also video rearview "mirrors". I
think they're a bad idea because of image distance difference but
that's a different discussion. There are all sorts of other
applications coming down the line for the center console display.

There are things that can't be displayed to the driver when in motion
which is why CarPlay and AndroidAuto disable most apps.

No citation needed

IOW, BS.

No you want to prove it otherwise I am sure you are capable. But I
KNOW that in the USA it is not allowed to use the backup camera as a
rearview while driving.

Good grief. Any idiot knows a negative can't be proven. You made the
claim. Your job.

So take your **** poor response and shove it.

I see logic isn't your strong suit either.

Well that is how trolling actually works, now those folks from home
owners hub ain't trolls, bit of suckers considering that ads that are
foisted upon them.

Now Feds say you can not sell a new car with an active display for
rear view, so that is the manufacturers problem. You yourself can got
out and buy a rear view camera and install it, but make sure that it
works well. Then you have to deal which states allow it and where it
is in your view.

So like radar detectors you could have bad time with the states laws.

On Sat, 15 May 2021 14:10:33 -0500, Markem618
wrote:

On Sat, 15 May 2021 14:46:35 -0400, J. Clarke
wrote:

On Sat, 15 May 2021 13:12:09 -0500, Markem618
wrote:

On Sat, 15 May 2021 13:55:14 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 14 May 2021 23:35:32 -0500, Markem618
wrote:

On Sat, 15 May 2021 00:33:51 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 14 May 2021 22:53:51 -0500, Markem618
wrote:

On Fri, 14 May 2021 23:27:37 -0400, wrote:

Not just Tesla. The "authorities" will be followers, rather like
back-up cameras.

Which can not be used when driving by decree of the law.

Even backwards? ;-)

Do you have a citation? I know of one application where that's one of
the key benefits. There are cameras that (are stitched together to)
"look around" a trailer to show what would be visible in a mirror if
the trailer weren't there. There are also video rearview "mirrors". I
think they're a bad idea because of image distance difference but
that's a different discussion. There are all sorts of other
applications coming down the line for the center console display.

There are things that can't be displayed to the driver when in motion
which is why CarPlay and AndroidAuto disable most apps.

No citation needed

IOW, BS.

No you want to prove it otherwise I am sure you are capable. But I
KNOW that in the USA it is not allowed to use the backup camera as a
rearview while driving.

So take your **** poor response and shove it.

You _know_? Do you have a citation to that effect? Actual mirrors
are required to be installed but that is different from banning the
use of cameras for that purpose. In point of fact Kia provides live
view blindspot monitoring on some models, which they would be unable
to do if such things were unlawful. Google "Kia Telluride" and read
through the features.


Current Federal regulation do not allow active display in place of
mirror as of August 28 2019.

It is not in place of a mirror. It is in addition to a mirror.

So Kia if they are doing so might be skirting that Feds.

Given that their cars are imported and subject to safety inspection,
it seems unlikely that they would get away with "skirting the feds".

Note that Honda and Hyundai have similar systems.

Now I think it is a silly regulation, reminded every time I get in the
truck, look at the rear view mirror, then put it in reverse. But night
time driving it might not be optimal, the headlights behind you would
probab;ly wash out the display, by overloading the CCD.

On Sat, 15 May 2021 17:04:42 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 5/15/2021 12:33 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 14 May 2021 22:53:51 -0500, Markem618
wrote:

On Fri, 14 May 2021 23:27:37 -0400, wrote:

Not just Tesla. The "authorities" will be followers, rather like
back-up cameras.

Which can not be used when driving by decree of the law.

Even backwards? ;-)

Do you have a citation? I know of one application where that's one of
the key benefits. There are cameras that (are stitched together to)
"look around" a trailer to show what would be visible in a mirror if
the trailer weren't there. There are also video rearview "mirrors". I
think they're a bad idea because of image distance difference but
that's a different discussion. There are all sorts of other
applications coming down the line for the center console display.

There are things that can't be displayed to the driver when in motion
which is why CarPlay and AndroidAuto disable most apps.


I'm on an auto forum and you'd be amazed as some of the questions asked.
How can I play a DVD on the screen? Can I get the Album art to show
in the HUD?

No DVDs, but Tesla's main screen will show Hulu, Netflix, and some
others. Only while the car is parked though.

Regulations aside, I'm sure the lawyers have a say in allowable
distractions. "I didn't mean to run over that kid on the bike but the
movie I was watching had a really neat scene I didn't want to miss"

My car has the surround view with four cameras. Cuts out at 12 mph.

On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 5:04:47 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 5/15/2021 12:33 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 14 May 2021 22:53:51 -0500, Markem618
wrote:

On Fri, 14 May 2021 23:27:37 -0400, wrote:

Not just Tesla. The "authorities" will be followers, rather like
back-up cameras.

Which can not be used when driving by decree of the law.

Even backwards? ;-)

Do you have a citation? I know of one application where that's one of
the key benefits. There are cameras that (are stitched together to)
"look around" a trailer to show what would be visible in a mirror if
the trailer weren't there. There are also video rearview "mirrors". I
think they're a bad idea because of image distance difference but
that's a different discussion. There are all sorts of other
applications coming down the line for the center console display.

There are things that can't be displayed to the driver when in motion
which is why CarPlay and AndroidAuto disable most apps.

I'm on an auto forum and you'd be amazed as some of the questions asked.
How can I play a DVD on the screen? Can I get the Album art to show
in the HUD?

Regulations aside, I'm sure the lawyers have a say in allowable
distractions. "I didn't mean to run over that kid on the bike but the
movie I was watching had a really neat scene I didn't want to miss"

My car has the surround view with four cameras. Cuts out at 12 mph.

....because running over a kid on a bike at 11.9 MPH is acceptable.

DerbyDad03 writes:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 3:30:11 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:

Actually 40 years ago one of our car salesmen rolled a new Toronado 1=20
mile from the dealership. It burned after he got out, the steering=20
wheel was not a normal shape.

The deformation of a steering wheel caused by heat would not be the same
deformation as caused by impact.=20

And the Tesla Model S has at least two types of steering wheel;
the Yoke style may look deformed to someone expecting a standard
round steering wheel.

On 5/15/2021 5:45 PM, Markem618 wrote:
On Sat, 15 May 2021 17:20:35 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 15 May 2021 13:12:09 -0500, Markem618
wrote:

On Sat, 15 May 2021 13:55:14 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 14 May 2021 23:35:32 -0500, Markem618
wrote:

On Sat, 15 May 2021 00:33:51 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 14 May 2021 22:53:51 -0500, Markem618
wrote:

On Fri, 14 May 2021 23:27:37 -0400, wrote:

Not just Tesla. The "authorities" will be followers, rather like
back-up cameras.

Which can not be used when driving by decree of the law.

Even backwards? ;-)

Do you have a citation? I know of one application where that's one of
the key benefits. There are cameras that (are stitched together to)
"look around" a trailer to show what would be visible in a mirror if
the trailer weren't there. There are also video rearview "mirrors". I
think they're a bad idea because of image distance difference but
that's a different discussion. There are all sorts of other
applications coming down the line for the center console display.

There are things that can't be displayed to the driver when in motion
which is why CarPlay and AndroidAuto disable most apps.

No citation needed

IOW, BS.

No you want to prove it otherwise I am sure you are capable. But I
KNOW that in the USA it is not allowed to use the backup camera as a
rearview while driving.

Good grief. Any idiot knows a negative can't be proven. You made the
claim. Your job.

So take your **** poor response and shove it.

I see logic isn't your strong suit either.

Well that is how trolling actually works, now those folks from home
owners hub ain't trolls, bit of suckers considering that ads that are
foisted upon them.

Now Feds say you can not sell a new car with an active display for
rear view, so that is the manufacturers problem. You yourself can got
out and buy a rear view camera and install it, but make sure that it
works well. Then you have to deal which states allow it and where it
is in your view.

So like radar detectors you could have bad time with the states laws.


Only prohibited in VA and DC. CA does not allow windshield mount.

On Sat, 15 May 2021 19:22:51 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 5/15/2021 5:45 PM, Markem618 wrote:
On Sat, 15 May 2021 17:20:35 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 15 May 2021 13:12:09 -0500, Markem618
wrote:

On Sat, 15 May 2021 13:55:14 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 14 May 2021 23:35:32 -0500, Markem618
wrote:

On Sat, 15 May 2021 00:33:51 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 14 May 2021 22:53:51 -0500, Markem618
wrote:

On Fri, 14 May 2021 23:27:37 -0400, wrote:

Not just Tesla. The "authorities" will be followers, rather like
back-up cameras.

Which can not be used when driving by decree of the law.

Even backwards? ;-)

Do you have a citation? I know of one application where that's one of
the key benefits. There are cameras that (are stitched together to)
"look around" a trailer to show what would be visible in a mirror if
the trailer weren't there. There are also video rearview "mirrors". I
think they're a bad idea because of image distance difference but
that's a different discussion. There are all sorts of other
applications coming down the line for the center console display.

There are things that can't be displayed to the driver when in motion
which is why CarPlay and AndroidAuto disable most apps.

No citation needed

IOW, BS.

No you want to prove it otherwise I am sure you are capable. But I
KNOW that in the USA it is not allowed to use the backup camera as a
rearview while driving.

Good grief. Any idiot knows a negative can't be proven. You made the
claim. Your job.

So take your **** poor response and shove it.

I see logic isn't your strong suit either.

Well that is how trolling actually works, now those folks from home
owners hub ain't trolls, bit of suckers considering that ads that are
foisted upon them.

Now Feds say you can not sell a new car with an active display for
rear view, so that is the manufacturers problem. You yourself can got
out and buy a rear view camera and install it, but make sure that it
works well. Then you have to deal which states allow it and where it
is in your view.

So like radar detectors you could have bad time with the states laws.


Only prohibited in VA and DC. CA does not allow windshield mount.

Which state impounded your car for having a detector? Thought it was
Maryland.

On Sat, 15 May 2021 19:22:51 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 5/15/2021 5:45 PM, Markem618 wrote:
On Sat, 15 May 2021 17:20:35 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 15 May 2021 13:12:09 -0500, Markem618
wrote:

On Sat, 15 May 2021 13:55:14 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 14 May 2021 23:35:32 -0500, Markem618
wrote:

On Sat, 15 May 2021 00:33:51 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 14 May 2021 22:53:51 -0500, Markem618
wrote:

On Fri, 14 May 2021 23:27:37 -0400, wrote:

Not just Tesla. The "authorities" will be followers, rather like
back-up cameras.

Which can not be used when driving by decree of the law.

Even backwards? ;-)

Do you have a citation? I know of one application where that's one of
the key benefits. There are cameras that (are stitched together to)
"look around" a trailer to show what would be visible in a mirror if
the trailer weren't there. There are also video rearview "mirrors". I
think they're a bad idea because of image distance difference but
that's a different discussion. There are all sorts of other
applications coming down the line for the center console display.

There are things that can't be displayed to the driver when in motion
which is why CarPlay and AndroidAuto disable most apps.

No citation needed

IOW, BS.

No you want to prove it otherwise I am sure you are capable. But I
KNOW that in the USA it is not allowed to use the backup camera as a
rearview while driving.

Good grief. Any idiot knows a negative can't be proven. You made the
claim. Your job.

So take your **** poor response and shove it.

I see logic isn't your strong suit either.

Well that is how trolling actually works, now those folks from home
owners hub ain't trolls, bit of suckers considering that ads that are
foisted upon them.

Now Feds say you can not sell a new car with an active display for
rear view, so that is the manufacturers problem. You yourself can got
out and buy a rear view camera and install it, but make sure that it
works well. Then you have to deal which states allow it and where it
is in your view.

So like radar detectors you could have bad time with the states laws.


Only prohibited in VA and DC. CA does not allow windshield mount.

That's weird but governments are that way. My wife's car has the
light dimmer in the windshield, behind the mirror that's a lot larger
than today's radar detectors. There is no requirement for clear view
area, either. Like I said, governments are weird, though really it's
about banning radar detectors without banning them.

On Sat, 15 May 2021 15:41:19 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 5:04:47 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 5/15/2021 12:33 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 14 May 2021 22:53:51 -0500, Markem618
wrote:

On Fri, 14 May 2021 23:27:37 -0400, wrote:

Not just Tesla. The "authorities" will be followers, rather like
back-up cameras.

Which can not be used when driving by decree of the law.

Even backwards? ;-)

Do you have a citation? I know of one application where that's one of
the key benefits. There are cameras that (are stitched together to)
"look around" a trailer to show what would be visible in a mirror if
the trailer weren't there. There are also video rearview "mirrors". I
think they're a bad idea because of image distance difference but
that's a different discussion. There are all sorts of other
applications coming down the line for the center console display.

There are things that can't be displayed to the driver when in motion
which is why CarPlay and AndroidAuto disable most apps.

I'm on an auto forum and you'd be amazed as some of the questions asked.
How can I play a DVD on the screen? Can I get the Album art to show
in the HUD?

Regulations aside, I'm sure the lawyers have a say in allowable
distractions. "I didn't mean to run over that kid on the bike but the
movie I was watching had a really neat scene I didn't want to miss"

My car has the surround view with four cameras. Cuts out at 12 mph.

...because running over a kid on a bike at 11.9 MPH is acceptable.

The dumb kid should be able to pedal faster.

On Sat, 15 May 2021 14:45:02 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 5:36:11 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 15 May 2021 13:55:35 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 3:30:11 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 5/14/2021 10:27 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 14 May 2021 08:31:14 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Friday, May 14, 2021 at 10:43:46 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 5/13/2021 10:52 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, May 13, 2021 at 9:54:44 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 5/13/2021 7:59 PM, Markem618 wrote:
On Thu, 13 May 2021 20:48:15 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 13 May 2021 10:46:59 -0400, knuttle
wrote:


As you sit in the gas line or are looking for a station with gas, DON"T
you wish your car was powered by on of the small nuclear reactor like
those they have use to power satellites for decades?

I'm not sure I want to be driving around on several pounds of
plutonium.

Yes but they do want you driving around with a load of Lithium. Safer
by a pretty good margin but.

For some maybe. LOL. Take the doctor and his attorney buddy in Houston
a few weeks ago. Left the doctors house in his Tesla with his buddy.
Leaving home and 800 feet later a firey crash into some trees, going 30
mph. The fire department had a difficult time putting those batteries
out once the caught fire.

And an odd side note, no on was in the drivers seat. They found 2
unidentifiable, not even enough for dental records, bodies in the back seat.

From: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...marshal-report

"Tesla’s vice president of vehicle engineering, Lars Moravy, said Monday on an
earnings call that the company found the steering wheel of the vehicle to be
deformed, leading to the likelihood that someone was in the driver’s seat at
the time of the crash.
And yet no body was found in the drivers seat.... The front seat could
have been holding the doctors bag and or the attorneys brief case to
fool the vehicle into believing some one was in the front drivers seat...

I'm not saying that you're wrong, but *something* deformed the steering
wheel and I'm pretty sure that a doctor's bag [do doctors actually carry
bags anymore ;-) ] and/or an attorney's briefcase would not:

1 - Be heavy enough to convince the car that a human was sitting in the seat
2 - Be strong enough or positioned correctly to deform the steering wheel

A 1000F for an hour or two won't deform the steering wheel?

On my Hondas, the weight range to turn on the "Passenger Air Bag Off"
light is somewhere 0 up to 65 lbs. I am assuming (I know, dangerous) that
the Tesla has a higher threshold to determine if a passenger is in the driver's
seat. Heck, I don't even know if it checks, but if it does, I'd bet it's higher than
the weight of the average 10 YO. i.e. much heavier than your average brief case.

If this had happened on NCIS or CSI, there would have been a multiple perfectly
situated security cameras to determine where the occupants were sitting. ;-)
Or they'd build a scale (or maybe even full-sized) model and recreate the
crash to see if the driver could have been knocked into the rear seat by the
impact.

Don't laugh. We're working on cockpit vision to do all sorts of
things, from setting the mirrors (finding the eyes and move the
mirrors accordingly), to distracted/impaired driving (eye-lid
recognition), to adjusting the EQ for your tunes based on where your
ears are. Big brother is watching.

The authorities (or probably Tesla) may even be doing that in this case.

Not just Tesla. The "authorities" will be followers, rather like
back-up cameras.

Actually 40 years ago one of our car salesmen rolled a new Toronado 1
mile from the dealership. It burned after he got out, the steering
wheel was not a normal shape.

The deformation of a steering wheel caused by heat would not be the same
deformation as caused by impact.

We don't know what type of deformation Moravy was referring to. For all we
know, once the investigation is complete, we may hear that the steering wheel
was deformed in 2 different manners. There could be deformation by impact
with the driver and then by heat once the fire started.

Deform a plastic cup with a hammer. Now deform a plastic cup with a heat
gun. I'll bet that the difference will be very clear even to those untrained
in forensic investigations.

Now take a third plastic cup and beat it with hammer before you heat it up.
I'll bet that it will look different than the other two. That's the type of detail
the investigators will (hopefully) be looking for. e.g. a melted steering wheel
that is also cracked/bent.
My bet is that if you take a plastic cup and subject it to 1000F for
an hour, you _won't_ be able to tell the difference.

Please tell that I don't need to explain how ridiculously irrelevant that comment is.

You're the one who brought up the plastic cup simile. I was just
pointing out that it wasn't a very good one.

On 5/13/2021 6:37 PM, Leon wrote:
On 5/13/2021 1:55 PM, G Ross wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 5/13/2021 9:46 AM, knuttle wrote:
No lines here!'

Of course not.Â* But we don't have oil wells or refineries here.

But I only have 1 oil well in my back yard.Â* ;~)

I knew it. You have too much common sense to spend $6-700 on a shop
vac, unless...

--
Jack
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.

On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 8:39:08 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 15 May 2021 14:45:02 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 5:36:11 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 15 May 2021 13:55:35 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 3:30:11 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 5/14/2021 10:27 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 14 May 2021 08:31:14 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Friday, May 14, 2021 at 10:43:46 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 5/13/2021 10:52 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, May 13, 2021 at 9:54:44 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 5/13/2021 7:59 PM, Markem618 wrote:
On Thu, 13 May 2021 20:48:15 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 13 May 2021 10:46:59 -0400, knuttle
wrote:


As you sit in the gas line or are looking for a station with gas, DON"T
you wish your car was powered by on of the small nuclear reactor like
those they have use to power satellites for decades?

I'm not sure I want to be driving around on several pounds of
plutonium.

Yes but they do want you driving around with a load of Lithium. Safer
by a pretty good margin but.

For some maybe. LOL. Take the doctor and his attorney buddy in Houston
a few weeks ago. Left the doctors house in his Tesla with his buddy.
Leaving home and 800 feet later a firey crash into some trees, going 30
mph. The fire department had a difficult time putting those batteries
out once the caught fire.

And an odd side note, no on was in the drivers seat. They found 2
unidentifiable, not even enough for dental records, bodies in the back seat.

From: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...marshal-report

"Teslas vice president of vehicle engineering, Lars Moravy, said Monday on an
earnings call that the company found the steering wheel of the vehicle to be
deformed, leading to the likelihood that someone was in the drivers seat at
the time of the crash.
And yet no body was found in the drivers seat.... The front seat could
have been holding the doctors bag and or the attorneys brief case to
fool the vehicle into believing some one was in the front drivers seat...

I'm not saying that you're wrong, but *something* deformed the steering
wheel and I'm pretty sure that a doctor's bag [do doctors actually carry
bags anymore ;-) ] and/or an attorney's briefcase would not:

1 - Be heavy enough to convince the car that a human was sitting in the seat
2 - Be strong enough or positioned correctly to deform the steering wheel

A 1000F for an hour or two won't deform the steering wheel?

On my Hondas, the weight range to turn on the "Passenger Air Bag Off"
light is somewhere 0 up to 65 lbs. I am assuming (I know, dangerous) that
the Tesla has a higher threshold to determine if a passenger is in the driver's
seat. Heck, I don't even know if it checks, but if it does, I'd bet it's higher than
the weight of the average 10 YO. i.e. much heavier than your average brief case.

If this had happened on NCIS or CSI, there would have been a multiple perfectly
situated security cameras to determine where the occupants were sitting. ;-)
Or they'd build a scale (or maybe even full-sized) model and recreate the
crash to see if the driver could have been knocked into the rear seat by the
impact.

Don't laugh. We're working on cockpit vision to do all sorts of
things, from setting the mirrors (finding the eyes and move the
mirrors accordingly), to distracted/impaired driving (eye-lid
recognition), to adjusting the EQ for your tunes based on where your
ears are. Big brother is watching.

The authorities (or probably Tesla) may even be doing that in this case.

Not just Tesla. The "authorities" will be followers, rather like
back-up cameras.

Actually 40 years ago one of our car salesmen rolled a new Toronado 1
mile from the dealership. It burned after he got out, the steering
wheel was not a normal shape.

The deformation of a steering wheel caused by heat would not be the same
deformation as caused by impact.

We don't know what type of deformation Moravy was referring to. For all we
know, once the investigation is complete, we may hear that the steering wheel
was deformed in 2 different manners. There could be deformation by impact
with the driver and then by heat once the fire started.

Deform a plastic cup with a hammer. Now deform a plastic cup with a heat
gun. I'll bet that the difference will be very clear even to those untrained
in forensic investigations.

Now take a third plastic cup and beat it with hammer before you heat it up.
I'll bet that it will look different than the other two. That's the type of detail
the investigators will (hopefully) be looking for. e.g. a melted steering wheel
that is also cracked/bent.
My bet is that if you take a plastic cup and subject it to 1000F for
an hour, you _won't_ be able to tell the difference.

Please tell that I don't need to explain how ridiculously irrelevant that comment is.

You're the one who brought up the plastic cup simile. I was just
pointing out that it wasn't a very good one.

It's actually is a very good simile to use as an example of impact deformation, heat
deformation and a combination of both.

The problem with your "1000F for an hour" statement is twofold:

1 - The material used to make a Tesla steering wheel has a much higher melting
point than a plastic cup. Therefore, if you are going to use a proxy to prove a
concept, the conditions have to match the materials. i.e. if the melting point of
a plastic cup is 500 times lower than that of a Tesla steering wheel, then the
experiment should be performed with 500 times less heat.

If you were building a 1/16 scale model Tomahawk missile, would you power it
with a full size engine or would you scale it back a bit?

2 - As I stated in an earlier post, the reports of an hours long 1000° fire were
misleading. The authorities stated that the initial blaze was extinguished in 10
minutes. The "hours" was the time spent putting out the small flareups in hard
to reach locations.

Subjecting a plastic cup to *any* amount of heat for an hour would not be an
accurate recreation of the original incident.

On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 6:56:48 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
DerbyDad03 writes:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 3:30:11 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
Actually 40 years ago one of our car salesmen rolled a new Toronado 1=20
mile from the dealership. It burned after he got out, the steering=20
wheel was not a normal shape.

The deformation of a steering wheel caused by heat would not be the same
deformation as caused by impact.=20

And the Tesla Model S has at least two types of steering wheel;
the Yoke style may look deformed to someone expecting a standard
round steering wheel.

Once again you've proved that all you are doing is reading these posts
and slamming them without having done any actual research.

I'm pretty that sure that Teslas vice president of vehicle engineering,
Lars Moravy, would not be "expecting a standard round steering wheel."

He was the one that said the company found the steering wheel of
the vehicle to be deformed.

On 5/16/2021 7:48 AM, Jack wrote:
On 5/13/2021 6:37 PM, Leon wrote:
On 5/13/2021 1:55 PM, G Ross wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 5/13/2021 9:46 AM, knuttle wrote:
No lines here!'

Of course not.Â* But we don't have oil wells or refineries here.

But I only have 1 oil well in my back yard.Â* ;~)

I knew it.Â* You have too much common sense to spend $6-700 on a shop
vac, unless...


LOL, That multi hundred dollar shop vac, let's call it the dust
extractor, has run every time and as for as long as my 4 Festool
sanders, Domino mortiser, Festool track saw, and Kapex miter saw all
combined. Plus a few other tools. It is 13 years old. I'd buy it
again with out much thought.

On Sun, 16 May 2021 11:34:06 -0500, Leon [email protected]
wrote:

On 5/16/2021 7:48 AM, Jack wrote:
On 5/13/2021 6:37 PM, Leon wrote:
On 5/13/2021 1:55 PM, G Ross wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 5/13/2021 9:46 AM, knuttle wrote:
No lines here!'

Of course not.* But we don't have oil wells or refineries here.

But I only have 1 oil well in my back yard.* ;~)

I knew it.* You have too much common sense to spend $6-700 on a shop
vac, unless...


LOL, That multi hundred dollar shop vac, let's call it the dust
extractor, has run every time and as for as long as my 4 Festool
sanders, Domino mortiser, Festool track saw, and Kapex miter saw all
combined. Plus a few other tools. It is 13 years old. I'd buy it
again with out much thought.

When you look at the price of a high-end house vac, it's not all that
ridiculous. Sure, it's a lot more than a "5.5HP" Crapsman shop vac
but a $99 Hoover isn't a decent household vac either.

On Sun, 16 May 2021 06:35:28 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 8:39:08 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 15 May 2021 14:45:02 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 5:36:11 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 15 May 2021 13:55:35 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 3:30:11 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 5/14/2021 10:27 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 14 May 2021 08:31:14 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Friday, May 14, 2021 at 10:43:46 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 5/13/2021 10:52 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, May 13, 2021 at 9:54:44 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 5/13/2021 7:59 PM, Markem618 wrote:
On Thu, 13 May 2021 20:48:15 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 13 May 2021 10:46:59 -0400, knuttle
wrote:


As you sit in the gas line or are looking for a station with gas, DON"T
you wish your car was powered by on of the small nuclear reactor like
those they have use to power satellites for decades?

I'm not sure I want to be driving around on several pounds of
plutonium.

Yes but they do want you driving around with a load of Lithium. Safer
by a pretty good margin but.

For some maybe. LOL. Take the doctor and his attorney buddy in Houston
a few weeks ago. Left the doctors house in his Tesla with his buddy.
Leaving home and 800 feet later a firey crash into some trees, going 30
mph. The fire department had a difficult time putting those batteries
out once the caught fire.

And an odd side note, no on was in the drivers seat. They found 2
unidentifiable, not even enough for dental records, bodies in the back seat.

From: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...marshal-report

"Tesla’s vice president of vehicle engineering, Lars Moravy, said Monday on an
earnings call that the company found the steering wheel of the vehicle to be
deformed, leading to the likelihood that someone was in the driver’s seat at
the time of the crash.
And yet no body was found in the drivers seat.... The front seat could
have been holding the doctors bag and or the attorneys brief case to
fool the vehicle into believing some one was in the front drivers seat...

I'm not saying that you're wrong, but *something* deformed the steering
wheel and I'm pretty sure that a doctor's bag [do doctors actually carry
bags anymore ;-) ] and/or an attorney's briefcase would not:

1 - Be heavy enough to convince the car that a human was sitting in the seat
2 - Be strong enough or positioned correctly to deform the steering wheel

A 1000F for an hour or two won't deform the steering wheel?

On my Hondas, the weight range to turn on the "Passenger Air Bag Off"
light is somewhere 0 up to 65 lbs. I am assuming (I know, dangerous) that
the Tesla has a higher threshold to determine if a passenger is in the driver's
seat. Heck, I don't even know if it checks, but if it does, I'd bet it's higher than
the weight of the average 10 YO. i.e. much heavier than your average brief case.

If this had happened on NCIS or CSI, there would have been a multiple perfectly
situated security cameras to determine where the occupants were sitting. ;-)
Or they'd build a scale (or maybe even full-sized) model and recreate the
crash to see if the driver could have been knocked into the rear seat by the
impact.

Don't laugh. We're working on cockpit vision to do all sorts of
things, from setting the mirrors (finding the eyes and move the
mirrors accordingly), to distracted/impaired driving (eye-lid
recognition), to adjusting the EQ for your tunes based on where your
ears are. Big brother is watching.

The authorities (or probably Tesla) may even be doing that in this case.

Not just Tesla. The "authorities" will be followers, rather like
back-up cameras.

Actually 40 years ago one of our car salesmen rolled a new Toronado 1
mile from the dealership. It burned after he got out, the steering
wheel was not a normal shape.

The deformation of a steering wheel caused by heat would not be the same
deformation as caused by impact.

We don't know what type of deformation Moravy was referring to. For all we
know, once the investigation is complete, we may hear that the steering wheel
was deformed in 2 different manners. There could be deformation by impact
with the driver and then by heat once the fire started.

Deform a plastic cup with a hammer. Now deform a plastic cup with a heat
gun. I'll bet that the difference will be very clear even to those untrained
in forensic investigations.

Now take a third plastic cup and beat it with hammer before you heat it up.
I'll bet that it will look different than the other two. That's the type of detail
the investigators will (hopefully) be looking for. e.g. a melted steering wheel
that is also cracked/bent.
My bet is that if you take a plastic cup and subject it to 1000F for
an hour, you _won't_ be able to tell the difference.

Please tell that I don't need to explain how ridiculously irrelevant that comment is.

You're the one who brought up the plastic cup simile. I was just
pointing out that it wasn't a very good one.

It's actually is a very good simile to use as an example of impact deformation, heat
deformation and a combination of both.

The problem with your "1000F for an hour" statement is twofold:

1 - The material used to make a Tesla steering wheel has a much higher melting
point than a plastic cup. Therefore, if you are going to use a proxy to prove a
concept, the conditions have to match the materials. i.e. if the melting point of
a plastic cup is 500 times lower than that of a Tesla steering wheel, then the
experiment should be performed with 500 times less heat.

You just proved my point.

500 times less heat? That would be 1.5K, give or take a phase change
or two. I don't think so.

If you were building a 1/16 scale model Tomahawk missile, would you power it
with a full size engine or would you scale it back a bit?

Once again, you prove my point. If you were going to scale a Tomahawk
missile (how do they get away with that name, today), you'd scale the
engine's thrust appropriately. It would still have to get nearly as
hot to prop ell it, though. Not 16x less heat. 300K/56C exhaust
isn't going to prop ell much. You also wouldn't expect a 1/16 scale
missile to fly the same as the full size model (Reynolds number, and
all that).

2 - As I stated in an earlier post, the reports of an hours long 1000° fire were
misleading. The authorities stated that the initial blaze was extinguished in 10
minutes. The "hours" was the time spent putting out the small flareups in hard
to reach locations.

Subjecting a plastic cup to *any* amount of heat for an hour would not be an
accurate recreation of the original incident.

Actually, it would. Temperature is not heat.

On 5/16/2021 1:30 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 16 May 2021 11:34:06 -0500, Leon [email protected]
wrote:

On 5/16/2021 7:48 AM, Jack wrote:
On 5/13/2021 6:37 PM, Leon wrote:
On 5/13/2021 1:55 PM, G Ross wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 5/13/2021 9:46 AM, knuttle wrote:
No lines here!'

Of course not.Â* But we don't have oil wells or refineries here.

But I only have 1 oil well in my back yard.Â* ;~)

I knew it.Â* You have too much common sense to spend $6-700 on a shop
vac, unless...


LOL, That multi hundred dollar shop vac, let's call it the dust
extractor, has run every time and as for as long as my 4 Festool
sanders, Domino mortiser, Festool track saw, and Kapex miter saw all
combined. Plus a few other tools. It is 13 years old. I'd buy it
again with out much thought.

When you look at the price of a high-end house vac, it's not all that
ridiculous. Sure, it's a lot more than a "5.5HP" Crapsman shop vac
but a $99 Hoover isn't a decent household vac either.



About 30 years ago I bought a Ricar home vacuum cleaner. Still own it,
and it was similar in price to the Festool vac.
Lite weight, built to last, could suck up and digest a quarter. But we
switched to a Roomba 13 years ago, on our 3rd now, and do not use the
big vac anymore.

On 5/15/2021 4:30 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 15 May 2021 14:33:52 -0500, Leon [email protected]
wrote:

On 5/15/2021 1:46 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
On Sat, 15 May 2021 13:12:09 -0500, Markem618
wrote:

On Sat, 15 May 2021 13:55:14 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 14 May 2021 23:35:32 -0500, Markem618
wrote:

On Sat, 15 May 2021 00:33:51 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 14 May 2021 22:53:51 -0500, Markem618
wrote:

On Fri, 14 May 2021 23:27:37 -0400, wrote:

Not just Tesla. The "authorities" will be followers, rather like
back-up cameras.

Which can not be used when driving by decree of the law.

Even backwards? ;-)

Do you have a citation? I know of one application where that's one of
the key benefits. There are cameras that (are stitched together to)
"look around" a trailer to show what would be visible in a mirror if
the trailer weren't there. There are also video rearview "mirrors". I
think they're a bad idea because of image distance difference but
that's a different discussion. There are all sorts of other
applications coming down the line for the center console display.

There are things that can't be displayed to the driver when in motion
which is why CarPlay and AndroidAuto disable most apps.

No citation needed

IOW, BS.

No you want to prove it otherwise I am sure you are capable. But I
KNOW that in the USA it is not allowed to use the backup camera as a
rearview while driving.

So take your **** poor response and shove it.

You _know_? Do you have a citation to that effect? Actual mirrors
are required to be installed but that is different from banning the
use of cameras for that purpose. In point of fact Kia provides live
view blindspot monitoring on some models, which they would be unable
to do if such things were unlawful. Google "Kia Telluride" and read
through the features.




Ram tackled this and IIRC GMC too with an inside rear view mirror that
is a mirror and a rear view camera. Apparently there is a toggle switch
to go between the two.

I don't see what's gained by just substituting a camera/display for a
mirror. It would drive me crazy, and probably everyone else over 40.
The mirror's image plane would be at infinity, as would the image of
the oncoming traffc. The camera/display's image plane would be at the
mirror so would take a major refocus. Refocusing is slow, or
impossible, for us old farts.


IIRC a wider angle.

On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 2:40:34 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sun, 16 May 2021 06:35:28 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 8:39:08 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 15 May 2021 14:45:02 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 5:36:11 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 15 May 2021 13:55:35 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 3:30:11 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 5/14/2021 10:27 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 14 May 2021 08:31:14 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Friday, May 14, 2021 at 10:43:46 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 5/13/2021 10:52 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, May 13, 2021 at 9:54:44 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 5/13/2021 7:59 PM, Markem618 wrote:
On Thu, 13 May 2021 20:48:15 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 13 May 2021 10:46:59 -0400, knuttle
wrote:


As you sit in the gas line or are looking for a station with gas, DON"T
you wish your car was powered by on of the small nuclear reactor like
those they have use to power satellites for decades?

I'm not sure I want to be driving around on several pounds of
plutonium.

Yes but they do want you driving around with a load of Lithium. Safer
by a pretty good margin but.

For some maybe. LOL. Take the doctor and his attorney buddy in Houston
a few weeks ago. Left the doctors house in his Tesla with his buddy.
Leaving home and 800 feet later a firey crash into some trees, going 30
mph. The fire department had a difficult time putting those batteries
out once the caught fire.

And an odd side note, no on was in the drivers seat. They found 2
unidentifiable, not even enough for dental records, bodies in the back seat.

From: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...marshal-report

"Teslas vice president of vehicle engineering, Lars Moravy, said Monday on an
earnings call that the company found the steering wheel of the vehicle to be
deformed, leading to the likelihood that someone was in the drivers seat at
the time of the crash.
And yet no body was found in the drivers seat.... The front seat could
have been holding the doctors bag and or the attorneys brief case to
fool the vehicle into believing some one was in the front drivers seat...

I'm not saying that you're wrong, but *something* deformed the steering
wheel and I'm pretty sure that a doctor's bag [do doctors actually carry
bags anymore ;-) ] and/or an attorney's briefcase would not:

1 - Be heavy enough to convince the car that a human was sitting in the seat
2 - Be strong enough or positioned correctly to deform the steering wheel

A 1000F for an hour or two won't deform the steering wheel?

On my Hondas, the weight range to turn on the "Passenger Air Bag Off"
light is somewhere 0 up to 65 lbs. I am assuming (I know, dangerous) that
the Tesla has a higher threshold to determine if a passenger is in the driver's
seat. Heck, I don't even know if it checks, but if it does, I'd bet it's higher than
the weight of the average 10 YO. i.e. much heavier than your average brief case.

If this had happened on NCIS or CSI, there would have been a multiple perfectly
situated security cameras to determine where the occupants were sitting. ;-)
Or they'd build a scale (or maybe even full-sized) model and recreate the
crash to see if the driver could have been knocked into the rear seat by the
impact.

Don't laugh. We're working on cockpit vision to do all sorts of
things, from setting the mirrors (finding the eyes and move the
mirrors accordingly), to distracted/impaired driving (eye-lid
recognition), to adjusting the EQ for your tunes based on where your
ears are. Big brother is watching.

The authorities (or probably Tesla) may even be doing that in this case.

Not just Tesla. The "authorities" will be followers, rather like
back-up cameras.

Actually 40 years ago one of our car salesmen rolled a new Toronado 1
mile from the dealership. It burned after he got out, the steering
wheel was not a normal shape.

The deformation of a steering wheel caused by heat would not be the same
deformation as caused by impact.

We don't know what type of deformation Moravy was referring to. For all we
know, once the investigation is complete, we may hear that the steering wheel
was deformed in 2 different manners. There could be deformation by impact
with the driver and then by heat once the fire started.

Deform a plastic cup with a hammer. Now deform a plastic cup with a heat
gun. I'll bet that the difference will be very clear even to those untrained
in forensic investigations.

Now take a third plastic cup and beat it with hammer before you heat it up.
I'll bet that it will look different than the other two. That's the type of detail
the investigators will (hopefully) be looking for. e.g. a melted steering wheel
that is also cracked/bent.
My bet is that if you take a plastic cup and subject it to 1000F for
an hour, you _won't_ be able to tell the difference.

Please tell that I don't need to explain how ridiculously irrelevant that comment is.

You're the one who brought up the plastic cup simile. I was just
pointing out that it wasn't a very good one.

It's actually is a very good simile to use as an example of impact deformation, heat
deformation and a combination of both.

The problem with your "1000F for an hour" statement is twofold:

1 - The material used to make a Tesla steering wheel has a much higher melting
point than a plastic cup. Therefore, if you are going to use a proxy to prove a
concept, the conditions have to match the materials. i.e. if the melting point of
a plastic cup is 500 times lower than that of a Tesla steering wheel, then the
experiment should be performed with 500 times less heat.
You just proved my point.

500 times less heat? That would be 1.5K, give or take a phase change
or two. I don't think so.

Give it up. It was just an example. Did you even see the word *if*?

If you were building a 1/16 scale model Tomahawk missile, would you power it
with a full size engine or would you scale it back a bit?

Once again, you prove my point. If you were going to scale a Tomahawk
missile (how do they get away with that name, today), you'd scale the
engine's thrust appropriately.

Give it up. That's exactly what I meant. "Scale it back a bit" is just an expression.

You're just nit-picking numbers when the only point I'm making is that the
deformation of the steering wheel (or plastic cup) caused by impact would
not be the same as a deformation of the steering wheel (or plastic
cup) caused by a fire.

You don't need a hours worth of 1000°F heat to illustrate the differences in
deformation, just like you don't need to throw the plastic cup at a tree at
whatever speed the Tesla was going.

Less impact and less heat would still illustrate the *difference* assuming the
test material is not as robust as the steering wheel.

Moving on.


Once again, you prove my point. If you were going to scale a Tomahawk
missile (how do they get away with that name, today), you'd scale the
engine's thrust appropriately. It would still have to get nearly as
hot to prop ell it, though. Not 16x less heat. 300K/56C exhaust
isn't going to prop ell much. You also wouldn't expect a 1/16 scale
missile to fly the same as the full size model (Reynolds number, and
all that).
2 - As I stated in an earlier post, the reports of an hours long 1000° fire were
misleading. The authorities stated that the initial blaze was extinguished in 10
minutes. The "hours" was the time spent putting out the small flareups in hard
to reach locations.

Subjecting a plastic cup to *any* amount of heat for an hour would not be an
accurate recreation of the original incident.
Actually, it would. Temperature is not heat.

On 5/16/2021 8:42 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 6:56:48 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
DerbyDad03 writes:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 3:30:11 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
Actually 40 years ago one of our car salesmen rolled a new Toronado 1=20
mile from the dealership. It burned after he got out, the steering=20
wheel was not a normal shape.

The deformation of a steering wheel caused by heat would not be the same
deformation as caused by impact.=20

And the Tesla Model S has at least two types of steering wheel;
the Yoke style may look deformed to someone expecting a standard
round steering wheel.

Once again you've proved that all you are doing is reading these posts
and slamming them without having done any actual research.

I'm pretty that sure that Teslas vice president of vehicle engineering,
Lars Moravy, would not be "expecting a standard round steering wheel."

He was the one that said the company found the steering wheel of
the vehicle to be deformed.



And more speculation, the crash was at 30 mph.
One would think that if there was some one in the drivers seat that the
air bag would have gone off and prevented the driver from deforming the
steering wheel. And the vehicle was not to be badly damaged from the
crash so much as from the fire.

On 5/16/2021 8:42 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 6:56:48 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
DerbyDad03 writes:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 3:30:11 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
Actually 40 years ago one of our car salesmen rolled a new Toronado 1=20
mile from the dealership. It burned after he got out, the steering=20
wheel was not a normal shape.

The deformation of a steering wheel caused by heat would not be the same
deformation as caused by impact.=20

And the Tesla Model S has at least two types of steering wheel;
the Yoke style may look deformed to someone expecting a standard
round steering wheel.

Once again you've proved that all you are doing is reading these posts
and slamming them without having done any actual research.

I'm pretty that sure that Teslas vice president of vehicle engineering,
Lars Moravy, would not be "expecting a standard round steering wheel."

He was the one that said the company found the steering wheel of
the vehicle to be deformed.





https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...verless-crash/

On Sun, 16 May 2021 15:45:26 -0500, Leon [email protected]
wrote:

On 5/16/2021 1:30 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 16 May 2021 11:34:06 -0500, Leon [email protected]
wrote:

On 5/16/2021 7:48 AM, Jack wrote:
On 5/13/2021 6:37 PM, Leon wrote:
On 5/13/2021 1:55 PM, G Ross wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 5/13/2021 9:46 AM, knuttle wrote:
No lines here!'

Of course not.* But we don't have oil wells or refineries here.

But I only have 1 oil well in my back yard.* ;~)

I knew it.* You have too much common sense to spend $6-700 on a shop
vac, unless...


LOL, That multi hundred dollar shop vac, let's call it the dust
extractor, has run every time and as for as long as my 4 Festool
sanders, Domino mortiser, Festool track saw, and Kapex miter saw all
combined. Plus a few other tools. It is 13 years old. I'd buy it
again with out much thought.

When you look at the price of a high-end house vac, it's not all that
ridiculous. Sure, it's a lot more than a "5.5HP" Crapsman shop vac
but a $99 Hoover isn't a decent household vac either.



About 30 years ago I bought a Ricar home vacuum cleaner. Still own it,
and it was similar in price to the Festool vac.
Lite weight, built to last, could suck up and digest a quarter. But we
switched to a Roomba 13 years ago, on our 3rd now, and do not use the
big vac anymore.

I remember Eletrolux vacuums being well over $1000, 50 years ago.

The CT48 works really well the saw, sanders, and routers. SCMSs are
hopeless. I have three cheap BORG vacs (garage, shop, and drywall
dust) for everything else.

On Sun, 16 May 2021 15:53:25 -0500, Leon [email protected]
wrote:

On 5/16/2021 8:42 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 6:56:48 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
DerbyDad03 writes:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 3:30:11 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
Actually 40 years ago one of our car salesmen rolled a new Toronado 1=20
mile from the dealership. It burned after he got out, the steering=20
wheel was not a normal shape.

The deformation of a steering wheel caused by heat would not be the same
deformation as caused by impact.=20

And the Tesla Model S has at least two types of steering wheel;
the Yoke style may look deformed to someone expecting a standard
round steering wheel.

Once again you've proved that all you are doing is reading these posts
and slamming them without having done any actual research.

I'm pretty that sure that Tesla’s vice president of vehicle engineering,
Lars Moravy, would not be "expecting a standard round steering wheel."

He was the one that said the company found the steering wheel of
the vehicle to be deformed.



And more speculation, the crash was at 30 mph.
One would think that if there was some one in the drivers seat that the
air bag would have gone off and prevented the driver from deforming the
steering wheel. And the vehicle was not to be badly damaged from the
crash so much as from the fire.

Don't be so sure about that. I've been in a similar accident. Even
though the airbags went off and the driver (me) uninjured, the
steering wheel was pretty well bent towards the dash (way towards). If
you're holding onto the steering wheel you, and your arms, go forward
to meet the airbag. The hands are still gripping the steering wheel,
so it takes a beating. Steering wheels are designed to deform and the
columns collapse for exactly this reason. Airbags help but only keep
you in the vehicle and your torso away from other solid objects. The
arms aren't restrained at all. Take a look at a crash dummy test
sometime. It's ugly.

On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 4:53:32 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 5/16/2021 8:42 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 6:56:48 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
DerbyDad03 writes:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 3:30:11 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
Actually 40 years ago one of our car salesmen rolled a new Toronado 1=20
mile from the dealership. It burned after he got out, the steering=20
wheel was not a normal shape.

The deformation of a steering wheel caused by heat would not be the same
deformation as caused by impact.=20

And the Tesla Model S has at least two types of steering wheel;
the Yoke style may look deformed to someone expecting a standard
round steering wheel.

Once again you've proved that all you are doing is reading these posts
and slamming them without having done any actual research.

I'm pretty that sure that Teslas vice president of vehicle engineering,
Lars Moravy, would not be "expecting a standard round steering wheel."

He was the one that said the company found the steering wheel of
the vehicle to be deformed.

And more speculation, the crash was at 30 mph.

I posted this the last time you said that the crash was at 30 MPH:

*****
Not according to the po-po.

This is dated May 12, 2021:

https://www.insurancejournal.com/new.../12/613656.htm

"The report didnt say how fast the car was going, but Harris County Precinct Four
Constable Mark Herman said it was a high speed."
*****

I'm not sure what Mr. Herman means by "high speed", but I'm speculating that it
was more than 30 MPH.

Even you said "Seems to me a 30 mph crash should not have been so devastating."

One would think that if there was some one in the drivers seat that the
air bag would have gone off and prevented the driver from deforming the
steering wheel. And the vehicle was not to be badly damaged from the
crash so much as from the fire.

On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 4:56:04 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 5/16/2021 8:42 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 6:56:48 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
DerbyDad03 writes:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 3:30:11 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
Actually 40 years ago one of our car salesmen rolled a new Toronado 1=20
mile from the dealership. It burned after he got out, the steering=20
wheel was not a normal shape.

The deformation of a steering wheel caused by heat would not be the same
deformation as caused by impact.=20

And the Tesla Model S has at least two types of steering wheel;
the Yoke style may look deformed to someone expecting a standard
round steering wheel.

Once again you've proved that all you are doing is reading these posts
and slamming them without having done any actual research.

I'm pretty that sure that Teslas vice president of vehicle engineering,
Lars Moravy, would not be "expecting a standard round steering wheel."

He was the one that said the company found the steering wheel of
the vehicle to be deformed.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...verless-crash/

Here's the headline from your link, dated April 19, 2021:

"A driverless Tesla crashed and burned for four hours, police said, killing two
passengers in Texas"

Here's another headline from 2 days later:

"Tesla Fire in Texas Crash Was Not How It Was Reported, Says Fire Chief"

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3...ls-fire-chief/

So yes, technically, the fire did burn "for four hours", but not at the extreme temperatures
of the initial blaze. Even a typical house fire can "burn for fours hours" if you are talking
about smoldering and minor flare-ups.