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Default OT: Weird wiring

J. Clarke on Mon, 22 Mar 2021 23:45:50
-0400 typed in rec.woodworking the following:

4-wire cable? It's used in dryer cables but it's a lot larger than
what you'd find in a lighting circuit.

OTOH, "I have this wire, so I don't have to go buy 'new'."

I'm pretty sure this wiring is all original to the house, which was
commercially built.


Come to B.A.R.F. Construction - We'll throw it up!


That's pretty much it. The guy built half the town, to the lowest
price he could manage.


"We rip off the other guy, and pass the savings on to you."
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)
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on Tue, 23 Mar 2021 12:47:11 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
On Mon, 22 Mar 2021 19:36:44 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

J. Clarke on Mon, 22 Mar 2021 18:20:41
-0400 typed in rec.woodworking the following:

Again -not unusual
Next:
Screwed adapter into socket and plugged in tracer
Traced signal in breaker panel
Not one, but _two_ breakers showed signal
Notuncommon with a "fox and hound" transmitter - crosstalk between 2
adjacent cables shows up at 2 breakers - or 3 (or possibly even 4)
Turned both off
Went back upstairs
Checked for voltage again
No voltage--good
Flipped switch--checked again
Voltage--not good
Back to the panel
Identify third breaker, turn off
Now no voltage

You finally found the REAL power source.

Replaced fixture, turned breakers back on, everything works, I didn't
die.
Did you turn them on one at a time and check to see when the light
camne on?? My bet is when you turned the first 2 on the light still
didn't light - and the third (REAL power source) breaker caused the
light to come on. Go back and try, then get back to us with your
results.

It's a 3 way. Have to turn two breakers off with the switch in one
position before the light goes out. If I flip the switch, then I have
to turn the third breaker off to make it go out. I didn't try
multiple combinations of breakers and switch positions--the light is
up two flights of stairs from the breaker panel.

Putting the basement lights on their own circuit is another project
that I guess I should handle while cleaning up this mess.


This is sounding like one of Those Projects. Where it turns out
the easiest way to have solved it was to have taken the old bulb and
put it in a new house.


He's doing a house-transplant.


I know the feeling. Only I'm thinking to take the front porch
screen door off and put it on a new porch, on the "new" house.

"You can buy yourself a 'new' car / house all at once, or one
piece/ project at a time."


--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)
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Eli the Bearded on Tue, 23 Mar 2021 17:28:08
+0000 (UTC) typed in rec.woodworking the following:
In rec.woodworking, pyotr filipivich wrote:
This is sounding like one of Those Projects. Where it turns out
the easiest way to have solved it was to have taken the old bulb and
put it in a new house.


In computers there's a term "yak shaving" for trying to solve one simple
problem and getting diverted into a trail of fixing many other problems
uncovered in the process. The term comes from "Ren and Stimpy", but I
haven't seen enough of that to know more.


Ah, the new classics.

My wife would like to take a bath, but the house has no bathtub,
just a shower. In what appears to be a bathroom added on, a long time
ago. Shortly after the asteroid arrived. (Sometime before the Ice
Age, a third bedroom was added. That's reasonably sound and even 'up
to code". Hard to visualize but the main house is 26' square, with a
5' square bathroom, and a third room, both off the back. This leaves
a "notch" about 6 ft wide and 13 ft long which is where the garden
shed pile is right now.
But the Bathroom has sagged - badly. Simplest solution to all this
is to take a chainsaw and expand the notch to six by 18. Put down a
slab and "add on." The corner has to come off because the toilet is
held up by the drainpipe, and the flooring by force of habit.
The first question is: tie the new roof on the add on into the
existing roof, open that up and tie in to those rafter/joist, or put
all new trusses up? And / or tie into the main, very steep pyramid of
the main house?

Of course, if we're doing a major roofing job, might as well get
the rest of it.

While we are at it, might as well pull the old chimney out, add
those to my already impressive Pile O' Bricks for an eventual Project.
{BBQ / Fire pit, raised flower beds, brick patio, "art", etc} So,
seal off that hole in the roof? Or add a hood over the stove in the
kitchen and exhaust out the old chimney route? Anyway, that gets
resolved before we redo the roof. Might as well, we're already up
there.
Oh, but what about the porch roof? Ask not about the roof, but
rather ask "What about the porch itself?" I can see where a corner it
being held up by cinder blocks, and I remember nailing that board over
where the edge broke when I stepped on it. I do not want to look
under there, at all.
Now, we're getting old, and we are going to need a ramp. Could
include that in the Porch rebuild, but - well two trees need to come
out, and I'm loath to just chop down a Japanese Maple.
Oh, and while we're making money like a successful bank, lets fix
the wiring and panel before adding more to this pasta dinner.

All this before adding some central heat, insulation, repainting
it all ... did I mention the parking place, leveling the yard, and
landscaping?

As I said, I think I'll just take the front screen off and put a
new house behind it.

Sometime in the next couple years, I'm sure.
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)
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Default OT: Weird wiring

On Tue, 23 Mar 2021 00:42:49 -0400, Michael Trew
wrote:

On 3/21/2021 7:22 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sunday, March 21, 2021 at 4:33:18 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
Please forgive me--this is a bit of a rant.

I went to put a new fixture at the top of the stairs--the old one is
physically too small to hold anything bigger than a 60w incandescent
(by physically I mean you can't put the globe on if anything bigger is
in it, and that includes CF and LED that are larger than 60W
equivalent and in that location a 60 just isn't enough light.

Well, went to kill the power to the circuit and discovered chaos.

First:
Turned the switch off
Checked socket with a voltage sensor
Still voltage on the circuit
Par for the course in this house
Switch is in the neutral leg
Add to list of stuff to fix.

Next:
Screwed adapter into socket and plugged in tracer
Traced signal in breaker panel
Not one, but _two_ breakers showed signal
Turned both off
Went back upstairs
Checked for voltage again
No voltage--good
Flipped switch--checked again
Voltage--not good
Back to the panel
Identify third breaker, turn off
Now no voltage

Replaced fixture, turned breakers back on, everything works, I didn't
die.

But now I have the real mystery--how is this effing light managing to
be connected to not one, but _three_ separate branch circuits?


It's possible that you are dealing with an Edison circuit, also known as
a "shared neutral" or "multi-wire branch circuit". Granted, Edison circuits
usually only involve 2 breakers, but I think I could imagine one with 3.

In a typical Edison circuit a cable with 2 hots and a single neutral has the
2 hots tied to separate breakers. That 3 wire cable runs to a junction box
from which a pair of 2-wire (hot and neutral) cables emerge. Those 2 circuits
share the single source neutral from the 3 wire cable.

If you only turn off one breaker, you will often get some voltage that bleeds
back through the neutral at the supposed-to-be-dead fixture. If you used a
meter as opposed to a voltage sensor, I'll bet that it's not the full 120 VAC.

Now - although this is not something that I have ever seen - expand that to
a 4 wire source cable (3 hots and a single neutral) to the first junction box
and you've brought that 3rd breaker into the picture.

I don't know if a "super-Edison" (I made that up) would be allowed by code,
but I can certainly imagine someone grabbing some 12/4 Romex and running
one.




Sorry to butt in - but question. I have an Edison circuit (never knew
that was the name - having trouble finding info on-line) ... 2 K&T wires
running into a 120 year old ceramic fuse box - 2 hot shared neutral.

Someone told me that I need to have the two hots skip a breaker on the
same side so they are on the same phase - because if I use two phases it
can risk lighting up my wiring to 240V if a connection is broken.

Another person told me no, I need to have both hots on touching breakers
- opposing phases - because if I don't I can theoretically overload the
neutral line up to 30 AMP if the both circuits are loaded.

Do you have a suggestion as to which is safer? I won't run anything
more power-hungry than a fan, phone charger, or lamp on either of these
circuits. Certainly no heaters or A/C units. Everything else stays off
if I run the vacuum. Thanks!



An "edison circuit" sharing the neutral HAS to be across line - in
other words the lives have to be from opposite sides of the service
otherwise you are overloading the neutral. A "shared neutral" can NOT
be used on 2 circuits on the same side under ANY code -The only way
you would get high voltage on one side would be if you had a hneavier
load on the other side and an open neutral.
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Default OT: Weird wiring

On Tue, 23 Mar 2021 00:35:24 -0400, Michael Trew
wrote:

On 3/21/2021 4:33 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
Please forgive me--this is a bit of a rant.

I went to put a new fixture at the top of the stairs--the old one is
physically too small to hold anything bigger than a 60w incandescent
(by physically I mean you can't put the globe on if anything bigger is
in it, and that includes CF and LED that are larger than 60W
equivalent and in that location a 60 just isn't enough light.

Well, went to kill the power to the circuit and discovered chaos.

First:
Turned the switch off
Checked socket with a voltage sensor
Still voltage on the circuit
Par for the course in this house
Switch is in the neutral leg
Add to list of stuff to fix.

Next:
Screwed adapter into socket and plugged in tracer
Traced signal in breaker panel
Not one, but _two_ breakers showed signal
Turned both off
Went back upstairs
Checked for voltage again
No voltage--good
Flipped switch--checked again
Voltage--not good
Back to the panel
Identify third breaker, turn off
Now no voltage

Replaced fixture, turned breakers back on, everything works, I didn't
die.

But now I have the real mystery--how is this effing light managing to
be connected to not one, but _three_ separate branch circuits?

Every time someone tells me that wiring should be done by a
"professional" I run into another example of egregiously bad wiring
installed by a "professional".

Well, I know now how I'm going spend some part of my vacation. And I
hate to admit it but I'm getting too _old_ to be rolling around in
fiberglass pulling wires for fun and no profit. I know, I should hire
an electrician but then I'll have to watch him.



I had a similar issue that I traced to a poorly grounded connection
inside of a metal junction box in my basement ceiling... someone thought
it was a good idea to put two separate circuits into this same junction
box, practically touching, wrapped loosely in electrical tape... who
needs wire nuts? No splicing tape and solder? Electric tape to the
rescue... haha. It was causing like a 40 volt leak onto another circuit.

That's what I was getting at with checking where the neutrals were
connected and making sure they were not just connected to each other
without a solid connection to the actual neutral


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Michael Trew wrote in
:


Thanks! I've had them on the same phase for years... oops. I suppose
I best go fix that, and look for a duplex breaker. I really ought to
run a few Romex lines up from the breaker box and pull that ceramic
fuse box.


You can also get handle ties and tie two ordinary 120V breakers together.
Might be a good way to go if you've got two unnecessarily overpriced
breakers (AFCI, GFCI) breakers and don't want to spend another $100 to
replace them.

Puckdropper
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Default OT: Weird wiring

On Tuesday, March 23, 2021 at 10:14:48 PM UTC-5, pyotr filipivich wrote:
Eli the Bearded on Tue, 23 Mar 2021 17:28:08
+0000 (UTC) typed in rec.woodworking the following:
In rec.woodworking, pyotr filipivich wrote:
This is sounding like one of Those Projects. Where it turns out
the easiest way to have solved it was to have taken the old bulb and
put it in a new house.


In computers there's a term "yak shaving" for trying to solve one simple
problem and getting diverted into a trail of fixing many other problems
uncovered in the process. The term comes from "Ren and Stimpy", but I
haven't seen enough of that to know more.

Ah, the new classics.

My wife would like to take a bath, but the house has no bathtub,
just a shower. In what appears to be a bathroom added on, a long time
ago. Shortly after the asteroid arrived. (Sometime before the Ice
Age, a third bedroom was added. That's reasonably sound and even 'up
to code". Hard to visualize but the main house is 26' square, with a
5' square bathroom, and a third room, both off the back. This leaves
a "notch" about 6 ft wide and 13 ft long which is where the garden
shed pile is right now.
But the Bathroom has sagged - badly. Simplest solution to all this
is to take a chainsaw and expand the notch to six by 18. Put down a
slab and "add on." The corner has to come off because the toilet is
held up by the drainpipe, and the flooring by force of habit.
The first question is: tie the new roof on the add on into the
existing roof, open that up and tie in to those rafter/joist, or put
all new trusses up? And / or tie into the main, very steep pyramid of
the main house?

Of course, if we're doing a major roofing job, might as well get
the rest of it.

While we are at it, might as well pull the old chimney out, add
those to my already impressive Pile O' Bricks for an eventual Project.
{BBQ / Fire pit, raised flower beds, brick patio, "art", etc} So,
seal off that hole in the roof? Or add a hood over the stove in the
kitchen and exhaust out the old chimney route? Anyway, that gets
resolved before we redo the roof. Might as well, we're already up
there.
Oh, but what about the porch roof? Ask not about the roof, but
rather ask "What about the porch itself?" I can see where a corner it
being held up by cinder blocks, and I remember nailing that board over
where the edge broke when I stepped on it. I do not want to look
under there, at all.
Now, we're getting old, and we are going to need a ramp. Could
include that in the Porch rebuild, but - well two trees need to come
out, and I'm loath to just chop down a Japanese Maple.
Oh, and while we're making money like a successful bank, lets fix
the wiring and panel before adding more to this pasta dinner.

All this before adding some central heat, insulation, repainting
it all ... did I mention the parking place, leveling the yard, and
landscaping?

As I said, I think I'll just take the front screen off and put a
new house behind it.

Sometime in the next couple years, I'm sure.
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)


I've heard here in the USA the real estate market is on fire. Burning up. Now might be a good time to sell and start over in a new house. Sometimes logic is applicable.
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Default OT: Weird wiring

On 3/24/2021 3:21 AM, wrote:
On Tuesday, March 23, 2021 at 10:14:48 PM UTC-5, pyotr filipivich wrote:
Eli the Bearded on Tue, 23 Mar 2021 17:28:08
+0000 (UTC) typed in rec.woodworking the following:
In rec.woodworking, pyotr filipivich wrote:
This is sounding like one of Those Projects. Where it turns out
the easiest way to have solved it was to have taken the old bulb and
put it in a new house.

In computers there's a term "yak shaving" for trying to solve one simple
problem and getting diverted into a trail of fixing many other problems
uncovered in the process. The term comes from "Ren and Stimpy", but I
haven't seen enough of that to know more.

Ah, the new classics.

My wife would like to take a bath, but the house has no bathtub,
just a shower. In what appears to be a bathroom added on, a long time
ago. Shortly after the asteroid arrived. (Sometime before the Ice
Age, a third bedroom was added. That's reasonably sound and even 'up
to code". Hard to visualize but the main house is 26' square, with a
5' square bathroom, and a third room, both off the back. This leaves
a "notch" about 6 ft wide and 13 ft long which is where the garden
shed pile is right now.
But the Bathroom has sagged - badly. Simplest solution to all this
is to take a chainsaw and expand the notch to six by 18. Put down a
slab and "add on." The corner has to come off because the toilet is
held up by the drainpipe, and the flooring by force of habit.
The first question is: tie the new roof on the add on into the
existing roof, open that up and tie in to those rafter/joist, or put
all new trusses up? And / or tie into the main, very steep pyramid of
the main house?

Of course, if we're doing a major roofing job, might as well get
the rest of it.

While we are at it, might as well pull the old chimney out, add
those to my already impressive Pile O' Bricks for an eventual Project.
{BBQ / Fire pit, raised flower beds, brick patio, "art", etc} So,
seal off that hole in the roof? Or add a hood over the stove in the
kitchen and exhaust out the old chimney route? Anyway, that gets
resolved before we redo the roof. Might as well, we're already up
there.
Oh, but what about the porch roof? Ask not about the roof, but
rather ask "What about the porch itself?" I can see where a corner it
being held up by cinder blocks, and I remember nailing that board over
where the edge broke when I stepped on it. I do not want to look
under there, at all.
Now, we're getting old, and we are going to need a ramp. Could
include that in the Porch rebuild, but - well two trees need to come
out, and I'm loath to just chop down a Japanese Maple.
Oh, and while we're making money like a successful bank, lets fix
the wiring and panel before adding more to this pasta dinner.

All this before adding some central heat, insulation, repainting
it all ... did I mention the parking place, leveling the yard, and
landscaping?

As I said, I think I'll just take the front screen off and put a
new house behind it.

Sometime in the next couple years, I'm sure.
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)


I've heard here in the USA the real estate market is on fire. Burning up. Now might be a good time to sell and start over in a new house. Sometimes logic is applicable.



The market is hot but a new house is way inflated. Prices on new homes
goes up as often as twice weekly in the Houston area This is going to
be another bubble.
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Default OT: Weird wiring

" on Wed, 24 Mar
2021 01:21:16 -0700 (PDT) typed in rec.woodworking the following:
On Tuesday, March 23, 2021 at 10:14:48 PM UTC-5, pyotr filipivich wrote:
Eli the Bearded on Tue, 23 Mar 2021 17:28:08
+0000 (UTC) typed in rec.woodworking the following:
In rec.woodworking, pyotr filipivich wrote:
This is sounding like one of Those Projects. Where it turns out
the easiest way to have solved it was to have taken the old bulb and
put it in a new house.

In computers there's a term "yak shaving" for trying to solve one simple
problem and getting diverted into a trail of fixing many other problems
uncovered in the process. The term comes from "Ren and Stimpy", but I
haven't seen enough of that to know more.

Ah, the new classics.

My wife would like to take a bath, but the house has no bathtub,
just a shower. In what appears to be a bathroom added on, a long time
ago. Shortly after the asteroid arrived. (Sometime before the Ice
Age, a third bedroom was added. That's reasonably sound and even 'up
to code". Hard to visualize but the main house is 26' square, with a
5' square bathroom, and a third room, both off the back. This leaves
a "notch" about 6 ft wide and 13 ft long which is where the garden
shed pile is right now.
But the Bathroom has sagged - badly. Simplest solution to all this
is to take a chainsaw and expand the notch to six by 18. Put down a
slab and "add on." The corner has to come off because the toilet is
held up by the drainpipe, and the flooring by force of habit.
The first question is: tie the new roof on the add on into the
existing roof, open that up and tie in to those rafter/joist, or put
all new trusses up? And / or tie into the main, very steep pyramid of
the main house?

Of course, if we're doing a major roofing job, might as well get
the rest of it.

While we are at it, might as well pull the old chimney out, add
those to my already impressive Pile O' Bricks for an eventual Project.
{BBQ / Fire pit, raised flower beds, brick patio, "art", etc} So,
seal off that hole in the roof? Or add a hood over the stove in the
kitchen and exhaust out the old chimney route? Anyway, that gets
resolved before we redo the roof. Might as well, we're already up
there.
Oh, but what about the porch roof? Ask not about the roof, but
rather ask "What about the porch itself?" I can see where a corner it
being held up by cinder blocks, and I remember nailing that board over
where the edge broke when I stepped on it. I do not want to look
under there, at all.
Now, we're getting old, and we are going to need a ramp. Could
include that in the Porch rebuild, but - well two trees need to come
out, and I'm loath to just chop down a Japanese Maple.
Oh, and while we're making money like a successful bank, lets fix
the wiring and panel before adding more to this pasta dinner.

All this before adding some central heat, insulation, repainting
it all ... did I mention the parking place, leveling the yard, and
landscaping?

As I said, I think I'll just take the front screen off and put a
new house behind it.

Sometime in the next couple years, I'm sure.
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)


I've heard here in the USA the real estate market is on fire. Burning up. Now might be a good time to sell and start over in a new house. Sometimes logic is applicable.


The "five year plan" is to be in a "retirement community". Which
means that any "projects" have that as a timeline, not just for doing,
but for "payoff".
tangenting, we have a house, it is our home. Anything we do to it
is an 'expense' not an 'nvestment' (save that it is cheaper to fix
now, than have something fall apart). The question is "Will this help
us 'now'?" not "Will this improve resale value?"
Because there is so much which needs 'fixing', replacing,
upgrading, overhauling - all of which takes more time, money and
effort than I've got, especially in the time frame we have.
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)
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Default OT: Weird wiring

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet on Wed, 24 Mar 2021 08:59:52 -0500 typed
in rec.woodworking the following:
On 3/24/2021 3:21 AM, wrote:
On Tuesday, March 23, 2021 at 10:14:48 PM UTC-5, pyotr filipivich wrote:
Eli the Bearded on Tue, 23 Mar 2021 17:28:08
+0000 (UTC) typed in rec.woodworking the following:
In rec.woodworking, pyotr filipivich wrote:
This is sounding like one of Those Projects. Where it turns out
the easiest way to have solved it was to have taken the old bulb and
put it in a new house.

In computers there's a term "yak shaving" for trying to solve one simple
problem and getting diverted into a trail of fixing many other problems
uncovered in the process. The term comes from "Ren and Stimpy", but I
haven't seen enough of that to know more.
Ah, the new classics.

My wife would like to take a bath, but the house has no bathtub,
just a shower. In what appears to be a bathroom added on, a long time
ago. Shortly after the asteroid arrived. (Sometime before the Ice
Age, a third bedroom was added. That's reasonably sound and even 'up
to code". Hard to visualize but the main house is 26' square, with a
5' square bathroom, and a third room, both off the back. This leaves
a "notch" about 6 ft wide and 13 ft long which is where the garden
shed pile is right now.
But the Bathroom has sagged - badly. Simplest solution to all this
is to take a chainsaw and expand the notch to six by 18. Put down a
slab and "add on." The corner has to come off because the toilet is
held up by the drainpipe, and the flooring by force of habit.
The first question is: tie the new roof on the add on into the
existing roof, open that up and tie in to those rafter/joist, or put
all new trusses up? And / or tie into the main, very steep pyramid of
the main house?

Of course, if we're doing a major roofing job, might as well get
the rest of it.

While we are at it, might as well pull the old chimney out, add
those to my already impressive Pile O' Bricks for an eventual Project.
{BBQ / Fire pit, raised flower beds, brick patio, "art", etc} So,
seal off that hole in the roof? Or add a hood over the stove in the
kitchen and exhaust out the old chimney route? Anyway, that gets
resolved before we redo the roof. Might as well, we're already up
there.
Oh, but what about the porch roof? Ask not about the roof, but
rather ask "What about the porch itself?" I can see where a corner it
being held up by cinder blocks, and I remember nailing that board over
where the edge broke when I stepped on it. I do not want to look
under there, at all.
Now, we're getting old, and we are going to need a ramp. Could
include that in the Porch rebuild, but - well two trees need to come
out, and I'm loath to just chop down a Japanese Maple.
Oh, and while we're making money like a successful bank, lets fix
the wiring and panel before adding more to this pasta dinner.

All this before adding some central heat, insulation, repainting
it all ... did I mention the parking place, leveling the yard, and
landscaping?

As I said, I think I'll just take the front screen off and put a
new house behind it.

Sometime in the next couple years, I'm sure.
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)


I've heard here in the USA the real estate market is on fire. Burning up. Now might be a good time to sell and start over in a new house. Sometimes logic is applicable.

The market is hot but a new house is way inflated. Prices on new homes
goes up as often as twice weekly in the Houston area This is going to
be another bubble.


I'm suspecting we're in multiple bubbles: housing, real estate,
stocks, bonds, credit cards, loans, entitlements, government debt,
artisan foods, cable / streaming videos - you name it, the numbers
have been inflated by the monetary policies over the last fifty years,
as more money has been created than 'value'. (This was called
'devaluation' back in the day: each 'dollar' is worth less, each
dollar buys less, you need more 'dollars' to buy the same thing: It
still takes a half hour to buy a Big Mac - regardless of what the
numbers are.)
When it can no longer can go on, it will stop. In a cascade of
collapsing bubbles, and destruction of "wealth", both "on the books"
and in real terms. And the currency will "collapse" - aka "hyper
inflation" where the devaluation takes place faster than new currency
can be printed.
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)


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Default OT: Weird wiring

On Tue, 23 Mar 2021 20:14:47 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

J. Clarke on Mon, 22 Mar 2021 23:45:50
-0400 typed in rec.woodworking the following:

4-wire cable? It's used in dryer cables but it's a lot larger than
what you'd find in a lighting circuit.

OTOH, "I have this wire, so I don't have to go buy 'new'."

I'm pretty sure this wiring is all original to the house, which was
commercially built.

Come to B.A.R.F. Construction - We'll throw it up!


That's pretty much it. The guy built half the town, to the lowest
price he could manage.


"We rip off the other guy, and pass the savings on to you."


What's this "pass the savings" thing?
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Default OT: Weird wiring

On Tue, 23 Mar 2021 20:14:47 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Tue, 23 Mar 2021 12:47:11 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
On Mon, 22 Mar 2021 19:36:44 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

J. Clarke on Mon, 22 Mar 2021 18:20:41
-0400 typed in rec.woodworking the following:

Again -not unusual
Next:
Screwed adapter into socket and plugged in tracer
Traced signal in breaker panel
Not one, but _two_ breakers showed signal
Notuncommon with a "fox and hound" transmitter - crosstalk between 2
adjacent cables shows up at 2 breakers - or 3 (or possibly even 4)
Turned both off
Went back upstairs
Checked for voltage again
No voltage--good
Flipped switch--checked again
Voltage--not good
Back to the panel
Identify third breaker, turn off
Now no voltage

You finally found the REAL power source.

Replaced fixture, turned breakers back on, everything works, I didn't
die.
Did you turn them on one at a time and check to see when the light
camne on?? My bet is when you turned the first 2 on the light still
didn't light - and the third (REAL power source) breaker caused the
light to come on. Go back and try, then get back to us with your
results.

It's a 3 way. Have to turn two breakers off with the switch in one
position before the light goes out. If I flip the switch, then I have
to turn the third breaker off to make it go out. I didn't try
multiple combinations of breakers and switch positions--the light is
up two flights of stairs from the breaker panel.

Putting the basement lights on their own circuit is another project
that I guess I should handle while cleaning up this mess.

This is sounding like one of Those Projects. Where it turns out
the easiest way to have solved it was to have taken the old bulb and
put it in a new house.


He's doing a house-transplant.


I know the feeling. Only I'm thinking to take the front porch
screen door off and put it on a new porch, on the "new" house.

"You can buy yourself a 'new' car / house all at once, or one
piece/ project at a time."


Is it a "brain transplant" or a "body transplant"?
  #53   Report Post  
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Posts: 2,833
Default OT: Weird wiring

On Wed, 24 Mar 2021 08:59:52 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 3/24/2021 3:21 AM, wrote:
On Tuesday, March 23, 2021 at 10:14:48 PM UTC-5, pyotr filipivich wrote:
Eli the Bearded on Tue, 23 Mar 2021 17:28:08
+0000 (UTC) typed in rec.woodworking the following:
In rec.woodworking, pyotr filipivich wrote:
This is sounding like one of Those Projects. Where it turns out
the easiest way to have solved it was to have taken the old bulb and
put it in a new house.

In computers there's a term "yak shaving" for trying to solve one simple
problem and getting diverted into a trail of fixing many other problems
uncovered in the process. The term comes from "Ren and Stimpy", but I
haven't seen enough of that to know more.
Ah, the new classics.

My wife would like to take a bath, but the house has no bathtub,
just a shower. In what appears to be a bathroom added on, a long time
ago. Shortly after the asteroid arrived. (Sometime before the Ice
Age, a third bedroom was added. That's reasonably sound and even 'up
to code". Hard to visualize but the main house is 26' square, with a
5' square bathroom, and a third room, both off the back. This leaves
a "notch" about 6 ft wide and 13 ft long which is where the garden
shed pile is right now.
But the Bathroom has sagged - badly. Simplest solution to all this
is to take a chainsaw and expand the notch to six by 18. Put down a
slab and "add on." The corner has to come off because the toilet is
held up by the drainpipe, and the flooring by force of habit.
The first question is: tie the new roof on the add on into the
existing roof, open that up and tie in to those rafter/joist, or put
all new trusses up? And / or tie into the main, very steep pyramid of
the main house?

Of course, if we're doing a major roofing job, might as well get
the rest of it.

While we are at it, might as well pull the old chimney out, add
those to my already impressive Pile O' Bricks for an eventual Project.
{BBQ / Fire pit, raised flower beds, brick patio, "art", etc} So,
seal off that hole in the roof? Or add a hood over the stove in the
kitchen and exhaust out the old chimney route? Anyway, that gets
resolved before we redo the roof. Might as well, we're already up
there.
Oh, but what about the porch roof? Ask not about the roof, but
rather ask "What about the porch itself?" I can see where a corner it
being held up by cinder blocks, and I remember nailing that board over
where the edge broke when I stepped on it. I do not want to look
under there, at all.
Now, we're getting old, and we are going to need a ramp. Could
include that in the Porch rebuild, but - well two trees need to come
out, and I'm loath to just chop down a Japanese Maple.
Oh, and while we're making money like a successful bank, lets fix
the wiring and panel before adding more to this pasta dinner.

All this before adding some central heat, insulation, repainting
it all ... did I mention the parking place, leveling the yard, and
landscaping?

As I said, I think I'll just take the front screen off and put a
new house behind it.

Sometime in the next couple years, I'm sure.
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)


I've heard here in the USA the real estate market is on fire. Burning up. Now might be a good time to sell and start over in a new house. Sometimes logic is applicable.



The market is hot but a new house is way inflated. Prices on new homes
goes up as often as twice weekly in the Houston area This is going to
be another bubble.


You got that right. SWMBO was talking to an agent in the next county
over, who said that there were only 27 homes on the market (a week or
so, ago). There are three (of 70) houses in my development that went
on the market and were sold in days. Agents are screaming for
inventory but they're going as fast as they come on the market. I
have agents sending letters begging to sell my house; "We have a buyer
who wants *your* house right now.". I wish I were ready to sell but
then I'd have nowhere to live and no chance of buying what I'd want.

The zEstimate for my house has gone up 25% in the last three months. A
consumer advocate (Clark Howard) was saying that 60% of the homes,
today, are sold sight-unseen. Nothing more than the photos and video
walk-throughs. Last year it was 50% and the year before 30%.

It's silly season. It *has* to burst. I bought this house for 1/3 of
what it would go for today, at the end of the 2008-2012 collapse. It
was a foreclosure so got a good deal on it. I was thinking of a way
to do it again, for profit. The opportunity will be there, and sooner
than anyone wants.
  #54   Report Post  
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Posts: 2,833
Default OT: Weird wiring

On Wed, 24 Mar 2021 07:53:46 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet on Wed, 24 Mar 2021 08:59:52 -0500 typed
in rec.woodworking the following:
On 3/24/2021 3:21 AM, wrote:
On Tuesday, March 23, 2021 at 10:14:48 PM UTC-5, pyotr filipivich wrote:
Eli the Bearded on Tue, 23 Mar 2021 17:28:08
+0000 (UTC) typed in rec.woodworking the following:
In rec.woodworking, pyotr filipivich wrote:
This is sounding like one of Those Projects. Where it turns out
the easiest way to have solved it was to have taken the old bulb and
put it in a new house.

In computers there's a term "yak shaving" for trying to solve one simple
problem and getting diverted into a trail of fixing many other problems
uncovered in the process. The term comes from "Ren and Stimpy", but I
haven't seen enough of that to know more.
Ah, the new classics.

My wife would like to take a bath, but the house has no bathtub,
just a shower. In what appears to be a bathroom added on, a long time
ago. Shortly after the asteroid arrived. (Sometime before the Ice
Age, a third bedroom was added. That's reasonably sound and even 'up
to code". Hard to visualize but the main house is 26' square, with a
5' square bathroom, and a third room, both off the back. This leaves
a "notch" about 6 ft wide and 13 ft long which is where the garden
shed pile is right now.
But the Bathroom has sagged - badly. Simplest solution to all this
is to take a chainsaw and expand the notch to six by 18. Put down a
slab and "add on." The corner has to come off because the toilet is
held up by the drainpipe, and the flooring by force of habit.
The first question is: tie the new roof on the add on into the
existing roof, open that up and tie in to those rafter/joist, or put
all new trusses up? And / or tie into the main, very steep pyramid of
the main house?

Of course, if we're doing a major roofing job, might as well get
the rest of it.

While we are at it, might as well pull the old chimney out, add
those to my already impressive Pile O' Bricks for an eventual Project.
{BBQ / Fire pit, raised flower beds, brick patio, "art", etc} So,
seal off that hole in the roof? Or add a hood over the stove in the
kitchen and exhaust out the old chimney route? Anyway, that gets
resolved before we redo the roof. Might as well, we're already up
there.
Oh, but what about the porch roof? Ask not about the roof, but
rather ask "What about the porch itself?" I can see where a corner it
being held up by cinder blocks, and I remember nailing that board over
where the edge broke when I stepped on it. I do not want to look
under there, at all.
Now, we're getting old, and we are going to need a ramp. Could
include that in the Porch rebuild, but - well two trees need to come
out, and I'm loath to just chop down a Japanese Maple.
Oh, and while we're making money like a successful bank, lets fix
the wiring and panel before adding more to this pasta dinner.

All this before adding some central heat, insulation, repainting
it all ... did I mention the parking place, leveling the yard, and
landscaping?

As I said, I think I'll just take the front screen off and put a
new house behind it.

Sometime in the next couple years, I'm sure.
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)

I've heard here in the USA the real estate market is on fire. Burning up. Now might be a good time to sell and start over in a new house. Sometimes logic is applicable.

The market is hot but a new house is way inflated. Prices on new homes
goes up as often as twice weekly in the Houston area This is going to
be another bubble.


I'm suspecting we're in multiple bubbles: housing, real estate,
stocks, bonds, credit cards, loans, entitlements, government debt,
artisan foods, cable / streaming videos - you name it, the numbers
have been inflated by the monetary policies over the last fifty years,
as more money has been created than 'value'. (This was called
'devaluation' back in the day: each 'dollar' is worth less, each
dollar buys less, you need more 'dollars' to buy the same thing: It
still takes a half hour to buy a Big Mac - regardless of what the
numbers are.)
When it can no longer can go on, it will stop. In a cascade of
collapsing bubbles, and destruction of "wealth", both "on the books"
and in real terms. And the currency will "collapse" - aka "hyper
inflation" where the devaluation takes place faster than new currency
can be printed.


Gold & off-shore investments.
  #55   Report Post  
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Default OT: Weird wiring

On Wed, 24 Mar 2021 07:53:46 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

" on Wed, 24 Mar
2021 01:21:16 -0700 (PDT) typed in rec.woodworking the following:
On Tuesday, March 23, 2021 at 10:14:48 PM UTC-5, pyotr filipivich wrote:

...
I've heard here in the USA the real estate market is on fire. Burning up. Now might be a good time to sell and start over in a new house. Sometimes logic is applicable.


The "five year plan" is to be in a "retirement community". Which
means that any "projects" have that as a timeline, not just for doing,
but for "payoff".
tangenting, we have a house, it is our home. Anything we do to it
is an 'expense' not an 'nvestment' (save that it is cheaper to fix
now, than have something fall apart). The question is "Will this help
us 'now'?" not "Will this improve resale value?"
Because there is so much which needs 'fixing', replacing,
upgrading, overhauling - all of which takes more time, money and
effort than I've got, especially in the time frame we have.


If I move into a retirement community it would kill me. We lived in an
apartment for a year, between "permanent" jobs, and I was contracting.
I absolutely hated it. If it weren't for the fact that we lived in
Amish country and their woodworking was so phenomenal, I would have
gone nuts. It's a good thing they were paying me outrageous money
(and overtime on top). While Amish furniture is relatively cheap,
it's certainly not free. A cherry dining room and bedroom did take a
chunk.


  #56   Report Post  
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Posts: 4,564
Default OT: Weird wiring

On Tue, 23 Mar 2021 20:14:47 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Eli the Bearded on Tue, 23 Mar 2021 17:28:08
+0000 (UTC) typed in rec.woodworking the following:
In rec.woodworking, pyotr filipivich wrote:
This is sounding like one of Those Projects. Where it turns out
the easiest way to have solved it was to have taken the old bulb and
put it in a new house.


In computers there's a term "yak shaving" for trying to solve one simple
problem and getting diverted into a trail of fixing many other problems
uncovered in the process. The term comes from "Ren and Stimpy", but I
haven't seen enough of that to know more.


Ah, the new classics.

My wife would like to take a bath, but the house has no bathtub,
just a shower. In what appears to be a bathroom added on, a long time
ago. Shortly after the asteroid arrived. (Sometime before the Ice
Age, a third bedroom was added. That's reasonably sound and even 'up
to code". Hard to visualize but the main house is 26' square, with a
5' square bathroom, and a third room, both off the back. This leaves
a "notch" about 6 ft wide and 13 ft long which is where the garden
shed pile is right now.
But the Bathroom has sagged - badly. Simplest solution to all this
is to take a chainsaw and expand the notch to six by 18. Put down a
slab and "add on." The corner has to come off because the toilet is
held up by the drainpipe, and the flooring by force of habit.
The first question is: tie the new roof on the add on into the
existing roof, open that up and tie in to those rafter/joist, or put
all new trusses up? And / or tie into the main, very steep pyramid of
the main house?

Of course, if we're doing a major roofing job, might as well get
the rest of it.

While we are at it, might as well pull the old chimney out, add
those to my already impressive Pile O' Bricks for an eventual Project.
{BBQ / Fire pit, raised flower beds, brick patio, "art", etc} So,
seal off that hole in the roof? Or add a hood over the stove in the
kitchen and exhaust out the old chimney route? Anyway, that gets
resolved before we redo the roof. Might as well, we're already up
there.
Oh, but what about the porch roof? Ask not about the roof, but
rather ask "What about the porch itself?" I can see where a corner it
being held up by cinder blocks, and I remember nailing that board over
where the edge broke when I stepped on it. I do not want to look
under there, at all.
Now, we're getting old, and we are going to need a ramp. Could
include that in the Porch rebuild, but - well two trees need to come
out, and I'm loath to just chop down a Japanese Maple.
Oh, and while we're making money like a successful bank, lets fix
the wiring and panel before adding more to this pasta dinner.

All this before adding some central heat, insulation, repainting
it all ... did I mention the parking place, leveling the yard, and
landscaping?

As I said, I think I'll just take the front screen off and put a
new house behind it.

Sometime in the next couple years, I'm sure.

Sounds a bit like a D9 project. (or maybee just a Jeep Renegade and a
chain?) Saving the front screen door might be false economy.
  #57   Report Post  
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Posts: 524
Default OT: Weird wiring

On Thu, 25 Mar 2021 00:38:50 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Mar 2021 20:14:47 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Eli the Bearded on Tue, 23 Mar 2021 17:28:08
+0000 (UTC) typed in rec.woodworking the following:
In rec.woodworking, pyotr filipivich wrote:
This is sounding like one of Those Projects. Where it turns out
the easiest way to have solved it was to have taken the old bulb and
put it in a new house.

In computers there's a term "yak shaving" for trying to solve one simple
problem and getting diverted into a trail of fixing many other problems
uncovered in the process. The term comes from "Ren and Stimpy", but I
haven't seen enough of that to know more.


Ah, the new classics.

My wife would like to take a bath, but the house has no bathtub,
just a shower. In what appears to be a bathroom added on, a long time
ago. Shortly after the asteroid arrived. (Sometime before the Ice
Age, a third bedroom was added. That's reasonably sound and even 'up
to code". Hard to visualize but the main house is 26' square, with a
5' square bathroom, and a third room, both off the back. This leaves
a "notch" about 6 ft wide and 13 ft long which is where the garden
shed pile is right now.
But the Bathroom has sagged - badly. Simplest solution to all this
is to take a chainsaw and expand the notch to six by 18. Put down a
slab and "add on." The corner has to come off because the toilet is
held up by the drainpipe, and the flooring by force of habit.
The first question is: tie the new roof on the add on into the
existing roof, open that up and tie in to those rafter/joist, or put
all new trusses up? And / or tie into the main, very steep pyramid of
the main house?

Of course, if we're doing a major roofing job, might as well get
the rest of it.

While we are at it, might as well pull the old chimney out, add
those to my already impressive Pile O' Bricks for an eventual Project.
{BBQ / Fire pit, raised flower beds, brick patio, "art", etc} So,
seal off that hole in the roof? Or add a hood over the stove in the
kitchen and exhaust out the old chimney route? Anyway, that gets
resolved before we redo the roof. Might as well, we're already up
there.
Oh, but what about the porch roof? Ask not about the roof, but
rather ask "What about the porch itself?" I can see where a corner it
being held up by cinder blocks, and I remember nailing that board over
where the edge broke when I stepped on it. I do not want to look
under there, at all.
Now, we're getting old, and we are going to need a ramp. Could
include that in the Porch rebuild, but - well two trees need to come
out, and I'm loath to just chop down a Japanese Maple.
Oh, and while we're making money like a successful bank, lets fix
the wiring and panel before adding more to this pasta dinner.

All this before adding some central heat, insulation, repainting
it all ... did I mention the parking place, leveling the yard, and
landscaping?

As I said, I think I'll just take the front screen off and put a
new house behind it.

Sometime in the next couple years, I'm sure.

Sounds a bit like a D9 project. (or maybee just a Jeep Renegade and a
chain?) Saving the front screen door might be false economy.


It would for me--the front screen door is on my round-tuit list.

By the way, I got a piece of junk mail yesterday offering to replace
my front door with one made out of fiberblass for the bargain price of
$18,000.

Jeez, I could make one out of gold-plated ebony for that (why one
would want a door made out of gold-plated ebony is beside the point).

  #59   Report Post  
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Posts: 3,355
Default OT: Weird wiring

J. Clarke on Thu, 25 Mar 2021 07:28:21
-0400 typed in rec.woodworking the following:
On Thu, 25 Mar 2021 00:38:50 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Mar 2021 20:14:47 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Eli the Bearded on Tue, 23 Mar 2021 17:28:08
+0000 (UTC) typed in rec.woodworking the following:
In rec.woodworking, pyotr filipivich wrote:
This is sounding like one of Those Projects. Where it turns out
the easiest way to have solved it was to have taken the old bulb and
put it in a new house.

In computers there's a term "yak shaving" for trying to solve one simple
problem and getting diverted into a trail of fixing many other problems
uncovered in the process. The term comes from "Ren and Stimpy", but I
haven't seen enough of that to know more.

Ah, the new classics.

My wife would like to take a bath, but the house has no bathtub,
just a shower. In what appears to be a bathroom added on, a long time
ago. Shortly after the asteroid arrived. (Sometime before the Ice
Age, a third bedroom was added. That's reasonably sound and even 'up
to code". Hard to visualize but the main house is 26' square, with a
5' square bathroom, and a third room, both off the back. This leaves
a "notch" about 6 ft wide and 13 ft long which is where the garden
shed pile is right now.
But the Bathroom has sagged - badly. Simplest solution to all this
is to take a chainsaw and expand the notch to six by 18. Put down a
slab and "add on." The corner has to come off because the toilet is
held up by the drainpipe, and the flooring by force of habit.
The first question is: tie the new roof on the add on into the
existing roof, open that up and tie in to those rafter/joist, or put
all new trusses up? And / or tie into the main, very steep pyramid of
the main house?

Of course, if we're doing a major roofing job, might as well get
the rest of it.

While we are at it, might as well pull the old chimney out, add
those to my already impressive Pile O' Bricks for an eventual Project.
{BBQ / Fire pit, raised flower beds, brick patio, "art", etc} So,
seal off that hole in the roof? Or add a hood over the stove in the
kitchen and exhaust out the old chimney route? Anyway, that gets
resolved before we redo the roof. Might as well, we're already up
there.
Oh, but what about the porch roof? Ask not about the roof, but
rather ask "What about the porch itself?" I can see where a corner it
being held up by cinder blocks, and I remember nailing that board over
where the edge broke when I stepped on it. I do not want to look
under there, at all.
Now, we're getting old, and we are going to need a ramp. Could
include that in the Porch rebuild, but - well two trees need to come
out, and I'm loath to just chop down a Japanese Maple.
Oh, and while we're making money like a successful bank, lets fix
the wiring and panel before adding more to this pasta dinner.

All this before adding some central heat, insulation, repainting
it all ... did I mention the parking place, leveling the yard, and
landscaping?

As I said, I think I'll just take the front screen off and put a
new house behind it.

Sometime in the next couple years, I'm sure.

Sounds a bit like a D9 project. (or maybee just a Jeep Renegade and a
chain?) Saving the front screen door might be false economy.


It would for me--the front screen door is on my round-tuit list.

By the way, I got a piece of junk mail yesterday offering to replace
my front door with one made out of fiberblass for the bargain price of
$18,000.

Jeez, I could make one out of gold-plated ebony for that (why one
would want a door made out of gold-plated ebony is beside the point).


It is woodworking?

And "Because I can!"
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)
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