When we had our extension built recently, I took the opportunity to
install a Cat5 LAN. Well, to be more accurate, the electrician ran
the cabling in but said he didn't do network wiring so the tails sat
there for a while until eldest son got his new laptop. I got a friend
who is an experienced network engineer with his crimping tool to
install the face plates for the network points.

A diagram of the network is he

http://www.flickr.com/photos/30588773@N04/2864919945/

The engineer had a wee gizmo that he plugged into the individual
points and then another into the 4-gang which lit up to show that the
wires were correctly connected. Everything seemed fine and dandy and,
as I say, he's an experienced engineer.

Unfortunately the network doesn't work. A laptop plugged into any of
the individual 1-gang outlets can't see the network. However, if it's
plugged directly into the back of the router, all is fine.

Anyone any thoughts? I bought the cable from work (we do network
installations, though I'm a software engineer myself) - it's
unshielded twisted pair, and it's what we have in our work LAN.

Thanks

Edward

In article
,
wrote:
When we had our extension built recently, I took the opportunity to
install a Cat5 LAN. Well, to be more accurate, the electrician ran
the cabling in but said he didn't do network wiring so the tails sat
there for a while until eldest son got his new laptop. I got a friend
who is an experienced network engineer with his crimping tool to
install the face plates for the network points.

A diagram of the network is he

http://www.flickr.com/photos/30588773@N04/2864919945/

The engineer had a wee gizmo that he plugged into the individual
points and then another into the 4-gang which lit up to show that the
wires were correctly connected. Everything seemed fine and dandy and,
as I say, he's an experienced engineer.

Unfortunately the network doesn't work. A laptop plugged into any of
the individual 1-gang outlets can't see the network. However, if it's
plugged directly into the back of the router, all is fine.

Anyone any thoughts? I bought the cable from work (we do network
installations, though I'm a software engineer myself) - it's
unshielded twisted pair, and it's what we have in our work LAN.

Experienced engineer or not he's made a cock up?

Here's the correct wiring:-

http://www.jaysafe.co.uk/technical/rj45.asp

Just a thought - have you got face plates either end with jumpers to the
router?

--
*Great groups from little icons grow *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

wrote in message
...
When we had our extension built recently, I took the opportunity to
install a Cat5 LAN. Well, to be more accurate, the electrician ran
the cabling in but said he didn't do network wiring so the tails sat
there for a while until eldest son got his new laptop. I got a friend
who is an experienced network engineer with his crimping tool to
install the face plates for the network points.

A diagram of the network is he

http://www.flickr.com/photos/30588773@N04/2864919945/

The engineer had a wee gizmo that he plugged into the individual
points and then another into the 4-gang which lit up to show that the
wires were correctly connected. Everything seemed fine and dandy and,
as I say, he's an experienced engineer.

Unfortunately the network doesn't work. A laptop plugged into any of
the individual 1-gang outlets can't see the network. However, if it's
plugged directly into the back of the router, all is fine.

Anyone any thoughts? I bought the cable from work (we do network
installations, though I'm a software engineer myself) - it's
unshielded twisted pair, and it's what we have in our work LAN.

Thanks

Edward

Are you using crossover patch cables ?

wrote
When we had our extension built recently, I took the opportunity to
install a Cat5 LAN. Well, to be more accurate, the electrician ran
the cabling in but said he didn't do network wiring so the tails sat
there for a while until eldest son got his new laptop. I got a friend
who is an experienced network engineer with his crimping tool to
install the face plates for the network points.

A diagram of the network is he

http://www.flickr.com/photos/30588773@N04/2864919945/

The engineer had a wee gizmo that he plugged into the individual
points and then another into the 4-gang which lit up to show that the
wires were correctly connected. Everything seemed fine and dandy and,
as I say, he's an experienced engineer.

Unfortunately the network doesn't work. A laptop plugged into any of
the individual 1-gang outlets can't see the network. However, if it's
plugged directly into the back of the router, all is fine.

Anyone any thoughts? I bought the cable from work (we do network
installations, though I'm a software engineer myself) - it's
unshielded twisted pair, and it's what we have in our work LAN.

Thanks

Edward

When you plugged the laptop into the router direct, did you use one of the
patch leads or another cable?
Just a check to make sure you haven't got "cross-over" cable by mistake for
the patch leads.

Phil

In article ,
wrote:
When we had our extension built recently, I took the opportunity to
install a Cat5 LAN. Well, to be more accurate, the electrician ran
the cabling in but said he didn't do network wiring so the tails sat
there for a while until eldest son got his new laptop. I got a friend
who is an experienced network engineer with his crimping tool to
install the face plates for the network points.

A diagram of the network is he

http://www.flickr.com/photos/30588773@N04/2864919945/

The engineer had a wee gizmo that he plugged into the individual
points and then another into the 4-gang which lit up to show that the
wires were correctly connected. Everything seemed fine and dandy and,
as I say, he's an experienced engineer.

Get him back in...

(But by posting here, I'm guessing that might not be an option!)

Unfortunately the network doesn't work. A laptop plugged into any of
the individual 1-gang outlets can't see the network. However, if it's
plugged directly into the back of the router, all is fine.

Anyone any thoughts? I bought the cable from work (we do network
installations, though I'm a software engineer myself) - it's
unshielded twisted pair, and it's what we have in our work LAN.

As others have said it might be that you're used cross-over cables,
however every router I've seen recently has auto cross-over ports now,
so it's unlikely that would cause a problem.

There are 2 "standards" for wiring cat-5 cable though - maybe he's using
one and your patch leads use the other?

Gordon

wrote in message
...
When we had our extension built recently, I took the opportunity to
install a Cat5 LAN. Well, to be more accurate, the electrician ran
the cabling in but said he didn't do network wiring so the tails sat
there for a while until eldest son got his new laptop. I got a friend
who is an experienced network engineer with his crimping tool to
install the face plates for the network points.

A diagram of the network is he

http://www.flickr.com/photos/30588773@N04/2864919945/

The engineer had a wee gizmo that he plugged into the individual
points and then another into the 4-gang which lit up to show that the
wires were correctly connected. Everything seemed fine and dandy and,
as I say, he's an experienced engineer.

Unfortunately the network doesn't work. A laptop plugged into any of
the individual 1-gang outlets can't see the network. However, if it's
plugged directly into the back of the router, all is fine.

Anyone any thoughts? I bought the cable from work (we do network
installations, though I'm a software engineer myself) - it's
unshielded twisted pair, and it's what we have in our work LAN.

Thanks

Edward


In addition to what the others have said ( incorrect patch cables ); can you
unscrew the face-plates, and either take a picture or describe what wires
have been punched down into which terminals?

I'd expect it to be:

1 Orange / White
2 Solid Orange
3 Green / White
4 Solid Blue
5 Blue / White
6 Solid Green
7 Brown / White
8 Solid Brown

( The Orange twisted pair may be swapped withthe Green twisted pair on some
installations, that's OK )

What's important it the twisted pairs.
One pair ( usually orange ) is used for pins 1+2.
Another pair ( usually green ) is used for pins 3+6.
This is critical.
The blue pair and brown pair are only used on gigabit and / or PoE systems,
but these are becoming commonplace, and should be wired up correctly too.

A common wiring error is to use one pair for 1+2,
another for 3+4, another for 5+6, another for 7+8.
This will not work properly.

It is essential that one twisted pair is used for 3+6, as described above.

--
Ron

"
There are 2 "standards" for wiring cat-5 cable though - maybe he's using
one and your patch leads use the other?


That doesn't matter.
So long as the wiring within a cable is the same at either end, then you can
mix A and B patch leads and fixed wiring.
A patch-lead or fixed wiring terminated using A at one end and B at the
other will be a crossover cable.

The only diff is that the TX will be carried on the orange pair over one
section, and the green pair over the next.
And the RX will be carried over the green pair on one section, and the
orange pair over the next.

The electrons are colour-blind.

So long as 1+2 are a twisted pair, and 3+6 are a twised pair, the actual
colours used are irrelevant.

--
Ron

wrote:

Unfortunately the network doesn't work. *A laptop plugged into any of
the individual 1-gang outlets can't see the network. *However, if it's
plugged directly into the back of the router, all is fine.

It would be interesting to know the make and model of the router. Others
have suggested this might be due to the use of a crossover lead but most
recent models should automatically compensate for transposed Tx and Rx
lines. If this is the case then it wouldn't matter of one lead was a
crossover anyway.

When you connect over the LAN there's 2 fly leads involved, one from the
laptop to the individual faceplate and and another from the 4 gang
faceplate to the router. Have you tested each lead individually, i.e.
connect the laptop directly to the router with each one in turn.

--
Mike Clarke

On Sep 17, 5:28*pm, Mike Clarke wrote:
wrote:
Unfortunately the network doesn't work. *A laptop plugged into any of
the individual 1-gang outlets can't see the network. *However, if it's
plugged directly into the back of the router, all is fine.

It would be interesting to know the make and model of the router. Others
have suggested this might be due to the use of a crossover lead but most
recent models should automatically compensate for transposed Tx and Rx
lines. If this is the case then it wouldn't matter of one lead was a
crossover anyway.

When you connect over the LAN there's 2 fly leads involved, one from the
laptop to the individual faceplate and and another from the 4 gang
faceplate to the router. Have you tested each lead individually, i.e.
connect the laptop directly to the router with each one in turn.

Thanks for all your thoughts. Replies below:

Yes, I've tested each lead individually. Well, I've swapped them
around and they all allow the laptop to connect directly to the
router. I don't know if they're crossover patch cables or not - one
says "CAT 5 PATCH CABLE UTP", the other says, amongst other things,
"VERIFIED TIA/EIA 568A CAT 5 PATCH"

The router is a Netgear ADSL Firewall Router DG834. DCHP is on,
natch.

A photograph of the back of one of the 1-gangs is he

http://www.flickr.com/photos/30588773@N04/2865124701/

The wires, from left to right, top to bottom, are

Blue; Blue/White; Orange; Green/White
Green; Orange/White; Brown; Brown/White

The wiring is the same on the matching socket of the 4-gang.

Thanks

Edward

A photograph of the back of one of the 1-gangs is he
http://www.flickr.com/photos/30588773@N04/2865124701/

The wires, from left to right, top to bottom, are

Blue; Blue/White; Orange; Green/White
Green; Orange/White; Brown; Brown/White

The wiring is the same on the matching socket of the 4-gang.

Looks like it's wired up totally wrong.
You need to look at the labeling under the wires.

Pin 1 is green/white.
Pin 2 is orange.

That's all wrong.
The pairs are all messed up.

You need to pull the wires out of the punch-downs and do them as everyone
has indicated. Use the colour codes I listed.

Check both ends.

--
Ron

On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 08:27:59 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

When we had our extension built recently, I took the opportunity to
install a Cat5 LAN. Well, to be more accurate, the electrician ran
the cabling in but said he didn't do network wiring so the tails sat
there for a while until eldest son got his new laptop. I got a friend
who is an experienced network engineer with his crimping tool to
install the face plates for the network points.

A diagram of the network is he

http://www.flickr.com/photos/30588773@N04/2864919945/

The engineer had a wee gizmo that he plugged into the individual
points and then another into the 4-gang which lit up to show that the
wires were correctly connected. Everything seemed fine and dandy and,
as I say, he's an experienced engineer.

Unfortunately the network doesn't work. A laptop plugged into any of
the individual 1-gang outlets can't see the network. However, if it's
plugged directly into the back of the router, all is fine.

Anyone any thoughts? I bought the cable from work (we do network
installations, though I'm a software engineer myself) - it's
unshielded twisted pair, and it's what we have in our work LAN.

If the laptop works plugged directly into any of the router ports I'd
get the wiring and socket outlets checked again. You can make a cheap
test kit by cutting a patch cable in two and shorting out each twisted
pair. Plug it in and stick the other half in the appropriate socket
and use a continuity tester on each twisted pair on that cable. Either
you have faulty wiring connections or the sockets are duff. That does
happen. I have two needing replacement ATM because the RJ45 plug
waggles about in them.

"Ron Lowe" ronATlowe-famlyDOTmeDOTukSPURIOUS wrote in message
...
A photograph of the back of one of the 1-gangs is he
http://www.flickr.com/photos/30588773@N04/2865124701/

The wires, from left to right, top to bottom, are

Blue; Blue/White; Orange; Green/White
Green; Orange/White; Brown; Brown/White

The wiring is the same on the matching socket of the 4-gang.

Looks like it's wired up totally wrong.
You need to look at the labeling under the wires.

Pin 1 is green/white.
Pin 2 is orange.

That's all wrong.
The pairs are all messed up.

You need to pull the wires out of the punch-downs and do them as everyone
has indicated. Use the colour codes I listed.

Check both ends.

--
Ron




To be more specific, it looks like the Orange/white and Green/white are
swapped.

Again, check all outlets, both ends.

--
Ron

On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 18:29:27 +0100, Alang
wrote:

On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 08:27:59 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

When we had our extension built recently, I took the opportunity to
install a Cat5 LAN. Well, to be more accurate, the electrician ran
the cabling in but said he didn't do network wiring so the tails sat
there for a while until eldest son got his new laptop. I got a friend
who is an experienced network engineer with his crimping tool to
install the face plates for the network points.

A diagram of the network is he

http://www.flickr.com/photos/30588773@N04/2864919945/

The engineer had a wee gizmo that he plugged into the individual
points and then another into the 4-gang which lit up to show that the
wires were correctly connected. Everything seemed fine and dandy and,
as I say, he's an experienced engineer.

Unfortunately the network doesn't work. A laptop plugged into any of
the individual 1-gang outlets can't see the network. However, if it's
plugged directly into the back of the router, all is fine.

Anyone any thoughts? I bought the cable from work (we do network
installations, though I'm a software engineer myself) - it's
unshielded twisted pair, and it's what we have in our work LAN.

If the laptop works plugged directly into any of the router ports I'd
get the wiring and socket outlets checked again. You can make a cheap
test kit by cutting a patch cable in two and shorting out each twisted
pair. Plug it in and stick the other half in the appropriate socket
and use a continuity tester on each twisted pair on that cable. Either
you have faulty wiring connections or the sockets are duff. That does
happen. I have two needing replacement ATM because the RJ45 plug
waggles about in them.

Can I ask something relevant to this ..Why is there a 4 way box
between the router and the faceplates .
http://www.flickr.com/photos/30588773@N04/2864919945/

Could the length(s) of Cat 5 cable not have been taken from the
router straight to each of the faceplates instaed of using the patch
cables . ?

On Sep 17, 6:58*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 18:29:27 +0100, Alang
wrote:





On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 08:27:59 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

When we had our extension built recently, I took the opportunity to
install a Cat5 LAN. *Well, to be more accurate, the electrician ran
the cabling in but said he didn't do network wiring so the tails sat
there for a while until eldest son got his new laptop. *I got a friend
who is an experienced network engineer with his crimping tool to
install the face plates for the network points.

A diagram of the network is he

http://www.flickr.com/photos/30588773@N04/2864919945/

The engineer had a wee gizmo that he plugged into the individual
points and then another into the 4-gang which lit up to show that the
wires were correctly connected. *Everything seemed fine and dandy and,
as I say, he's an experienced engineer.

Unfortunately the network doesn't work. *A laptop plugged into any of
the individual 1-gang outlets can't see the network. *However, if it's
plugged directly into the back of the router, all is fine.

Anyone any thoughts? *I bought the cable from work (we do network
installations, though I'm a software engineer myself) - it's
unshielded twisted pair, and it's what we have in our work LAN.

If the laptop works plugged directly into any of the router ports I'd
get the wiring and socket outlets checked again. *You can make a cheap
test kit by cutting a patch cable in two and shorting out each twisted
pair. Plug it in and stick the other half in the appropriate socket
and use a continuity tester on each twisted pair on that cable. Either
you have faulty wiring connections or the sockets are duff. That does
happen. I have two needing replacement ATM because the RJ45 plug
waggles about in them. *

Can I ask something relevant to this ..Why is there a 4 way box
between the router and the faceplates .http://www.flickr.com/photos/30588773@N04/2864919945/

*Could the length(s) *of Cat 5 cable not have been taken from the
router straight to each of the faceplates instaed of using the patch
cables . ? *

The router is in one room, connected to the 4-gang. The individual 1-
gangs are in various other rooms on various levels in the house. The
way I look at it (as a layman in the network game) is that the wire
from the back of the router, via the patch cable, to the 4-gang and
thence to the 1-gang is just a big extension lead.

Edward

wrote:

The router is in one room, connected to the 4-gang. The individual 1-
gangs are in various other rooms on various levels in the house. The
way I look at it (as a layman in the network game) is that the wire
from the back of the router, via the patch cable, to the 4-gang and
thence to the 1-gang is just a big extension lead.

Could have been much simpler to simply run a single wire from the router
to a network switch which these days are cheap as chips for an 8 port.
Unless of course there was nowhere to plug a network switch in where you
have the connection box.

:¬)

--
http://www.GymRatZ.co.uk - Fitness+Gym Equipment.
http://www.bodysolid-gym-equipment.co.uk
http://www.trade-price-supplements.co.uk
http://www.water-rower.co.uk

On Sep 17, 6:31*pm, "Ron Lowe" ronATlowe-famlyDOTmeDOTukSPURIOUS
wrote:
"Ron Lowe" ronATlowe-famlyDOTmeDOTukSPURIOUS wrote in message

...





A photograph of the back of one of the 1-gangs is he
http://www.flickr.com/photos/30588773@N04/2865124701/

The wires, from left to right, top to bottom, are

Blue; Blue/White; Orange; Green/White
Green; Orange/White; Brown; Brown/White

The wiring is the same on the matching socket of the 4-gang.

Looks like it's wired up totally wrong.
You need to look at the labeling under the wires.

Pin 1 is green/white.
Pin 2 is orange.

That's all wrong.
The pairs are all messed up.

You need to pull the wires out of the punch-downs and do them as everyone
has indicated. * Use the colour codes I listed.

Check both ends.

--
Ron

To be more specific, it looks like the Orange/white and Green/white are
swapped.

Again, check all outlets, both ends.

I have a problem with this problem, conceptually.

When I plug my laptop directly into the router, the patch cable
carries the signal directly along the cable according to how the patch
cable is wired.

However, if I plug the patch cable into the 4-gang wall socket, and an
identical patch cable from the destination 1-gang socket into my
laptop, surely the colour of the wires between the 4-gang and the 1-
gang is irrelevant, provided that the two sockets are wired the same?

See this diagram that will probably only confuse the issue

http://www.flickr.com/photos/30588773@N04/2866137802/

Edward

On Sep 17, 7:28*pm, "www.GymRatZ.co.uk"
wrote:
wrote:
The router is in one room, connected to the 4-gang. *The individual 1-
gangs are in various other rooms on various levels in the house. *The
way I look at it (as a layman in the network game) is that the wire
from the back of the router, via the patch cable, to the 4-gang and
thence to the 1-gang is just a big extension lead.

Could have been much simpler to simply run a single wire from the router
to a network switch which these days are cheap as chips for an 8 port.
Unless of course there was nowhere to plug a network switch in where you
have the connection box.

Um, what's a network switch?

Edward

wrote in message
...


However, if I plug the patch cable into the 4-gang wall socket, and an
identical patch cable from the destination 1-gang socket into my
laptop, surely the colour of the wires between the 4-gang and the 1-
gang is irrelevant, provided that the two sockets are wired the same?

No it really does matter.
The signals are very small and they need protection from interference.
Its done by twisting the two wires carrying the signal together.
If you use one wire from one twisted pair and another from a different pair
for a signal there is a lot of interference and it doesn't work
This is what appears to have been done here.

2 should be orange and 1 should be orange and white as indicated by the
colours on the socket.

In fact the brown + brown and white appears to be the only correctly wired
pair.

The tester will still show it as correct BTW as it doesn't actually check
the pairs are pairs.

coughed up some electrons that declared:

On Sep 17, 7:28*pm, "www.GymRatZ.co.uk"
wrote:
wrote:
The router is in one room, connected to the 4-gang. *The individual 1-
gangs are in various other rooms on various levels in the house. *The
way I look at it (as a layman in the network game) is that the wire
from the back of the router, via the patch cable, to the 4-gang and
thence to the 1-gang is just a big extension lead.

Could have been much simpler to simply run a single wire from the router
to a network switch which these days are cheap as chips for an 8 port.
Unless of course there was nowhere to plug a network switch in where you
have the connection box.

Um, what's a network switch?

Edward

It's effectively a router without the routing part.

Which sounds assanine, until you get some base definitions:

hub - boost/cleanup of electrical layer signal, does not understand any
protocol - no one really uses these anymore

router - is an IP endpoint for more than one network (ie it has 2 or more IP
addresses of its own). It can "route" or transfer packets between networks
using a rules table (aka "routing table") - the Internet is made of these.

switch - in between a hub and a router. Does no need an IP address (but may
have one so you can manage it). If part of a network, knows or learns how
to get different devices to talk to each other. Is actually a router at the
ethernet frame layer (uses MAC addresses as base addresses, not IP
addresses). Some switches have ability to make intelligent decisions about
where to send packets (or not) by looking into the protocol and seeing if
it's something they've been programmed to understand (eg HTTP, which is
based off TCP which is based off IP which is based of many things, one of
which is ethernet).

Fancy switches, like the big expensive ones made by Extreme and Cisco blur
the distinction between router and switch and general implement
functionality from both camps.

The long and the short of it is:

you generally have to set up a router, and you have a router as your
incoming end of your broadband connection - there's one the other end, and
maybe lots more between that and the news server you just read this message
off.

you generally don't need to set up a switch for it to be useful, but you
might if you're being fancy.

you don't set up hubs as a rule, but they're crap because for every packet
you bang into one, it sends the same packet out all its ports. A switch
learns the correct port to use, so is more efficient.

That may or may not be as clear as mud (blame the pear cider I just had).

Cheers

Tim

wrote in message
...
On Sep 17, 6:31 pm, "Ron Lowe" ronATlowe-famlyDOTmeDOTukSPURIOUS
wrote:
"Ron Lowe" ronATlowe-famlyDOTmeDOTukSPURIOUS wrote in message

...





A photograph of the back of one of the 1-gangs is he
http://www.flickr.com/photos/30588773@N04/2865124701/

The wires, from left to right, top to bottom, are

Blue; Blue/White; Orange; Green/White
Green; Orange/White; Brown; Brown/White

The wiring is the same on the matching socket of the 4-gang.

Looks like it's wired up totally wrong.
You need to look at the labeling under the wires.

Pin 1 is green/white.
Pin 2 is orange.

That's all wrong.
The pairs are all messed up.

You need to pull the wires out of the punch-downs and do them as
everyone
has indicated. Use the colour codes I listed.

Check both ends.

--
Ron

To be more specific, it looks like the Orange/white and Green/white are
swapped.

Again, check all outlets, both ends.

I have a problem with this problem, conceptually.

When I plug my laptop directly into the router, the patch cable
carries the signal directly along the cable according to how the patch
cable is wired.

However, if I plug the patch cable into the 4-gang wall socket, and an
identical patch cable from the destination 1-gang socket into my
laptop, surely the colour of the wires between the 4-gang and the 1-
gang is irrelevant, provided that the two sockets are wired the same?

--------------------------

NO.
You mis-understand a cruicial point.

The colours do not matter, ( the electrons are colour-blind) but the fact
that the pairs are twisted do.
Pins 1+3 MUST be from one twisted pair ( usually orng / orng-wht, but could
be any colour ).
Pins 3+6 MUST be from another twisted pair. ( usually grn / grn-wht, but
again, could be any colour. )

This is absolutely crucial.

Also, the arangement of pins on the outlets varies from brand to brand.
So you also need to take care of that.
You need to read the pin numbers on the faceplates and punch the wires down
using the colour-codes we have shown.

You just need to do what we say.
Make the wiring at BOTH ends compliant with the standard we have indicated.
Honestly.

I've installed these things more times than I can recount.

--
Ron

On Sep 17, 7:55*pm, "dennis@home"
wrote:
wrote in message

...

However, if I plug the patch cable into the 4-gang wall socket, and an
identical patch cable from the destination 1-gang socket into my
laptop, surely the colour of the wires between the 4-gang and the 1-
gang is irrelevant, provided that the two sockets are wired the same?

No it really does matter.
The signals are very small and they need protection from interference.
Its done by twisting the two wires carrying the signal together.
If you use one wire from one twisted pair and another from a different pair
for a signal there is a lot of interference and it doesn't work
This is what appears to have been done here.

2 should be orange and 1 should be orange and white as indicated by the
colours on the socket.

In fact the brown + brown and white appears to be the only correctly wired
pair.

The tester will still show it as correct BTW as it doesn't actually check
the pairs are pairs.

Awesome. Just what I wanted to know!

Thanks

Edward

wrote in message
...
On Sep 17, 7:28 pm, "www.GymRatZ.co.uk"
wrote:
wrote:
The router is in one room, connected to the 4-gang. The individual 1-
gangs are in various other rooms on various levels in the house. The
way I look at it (as a layman in the network game) is that the wire
from the back of the router, via the patch cable, to the 4-gang and
thence to the 1-gang is just a big extension lead.

Could have been much simpler to simply run a single wire from the router
to a network switch which these days are cheap as chips for an 8 port.
Unless of course there was nowhere to plug a network switch in where you
have the connection box.

Um, what's a network switch?

Edward


------------

A switch is what's already inside your router.
A device to connect 4 network devices together ( 5 if you include the router
itself. )

There's nothing wrong with your network layout: it's ideal.
You just need to sort out the botched wiring.

--
Ron

coughed up some electrons that declared:

I have a problem with this problem, conceptually.

When I plug my laptop directly into the router, the patch cable
carries the signal directly along the cable according to how the patch
cable is wired.

However, if I plug the patch cable into the 4-gang wall socket, and an
identical patch cable from the destination 1-gang socket into my
laptop, surely the colour of the wires between the 4-gang and the 1-
gang is irrelevant, provided that the two sockets are wired the same?

You'd think so and you'd be right if it were DC signals involved.

However, you're shoving signals with componets in the 100's MHz or GHz range
down the wires. Each circuit path must be down a twisted pair for balance
and signal immunity, or you'll get complete rubbish out the end, to the
point where the equipment won't even give you a link-active light.

Which sounds like the problem you're describing.

You mate with the cheap more-or-less DC buzz-through tool (which is what
your description sounds like) proved the pin assignments are correct. Those
tools do not prove the cable is wired properly. Proper test kit costs
1000's and does time domain reflectrometry and/or other impressive sounding
tests to prove it's right.

As others have said, best get in and check the wire colours. Use a good
light - the brown and orange, and the blue and greens are had to tell apart
in poor light.

Cheers

Tim

On Sep 17, 7:57*pm, Tim S wrote:
coughed up some electrons that declared:





On Sep 17, 7:28*pm, "www.GymRatZ.co.uk"
wrote:
wrote:
The router is in one room, connected to the 4-gang. *The individual 1-
gangs are in various other rooms on various levels in the house. *The
way I look at it (as a layman in the network game) is that the wire
from the back of the router, via the patch cable, to the 4-gang and
thence to the 1-gang is just a big extension lead.

Could have been much simpler to simply run a single wire from the router
to a network switch which these days are cheap as chips for an 8 port.
Unless of course there was nowhere to plug a network switch in where you
have the connection box.

Um, what's a network switch?

Edward

It's effectively a router without the routing part.

Which sounds assanine, until you get some base definitions:

hub - boost/cleanup of electrical layer signal, does not understand any
protocol - no one really uses these anymore

router - is an IP endpoint for more than one network (ie it has 2 or more IP
addresses of its own). It can "route" or transfer packets between networks
using a rules table (aka "routing table") - the Internet is made of these..

switch - in between a hub and a router. Does no need an IP address (but may
have one so you can manage it). If part of a network, knows or learns how
to get different devices to talk to each other. Is actually a router at the
ethernet frame layer (uses MAC addresses as base addresses, not IP
addresses). Some switches have ability to make intelligent decisions about
where to send packets (or not) by looking into the protocol and seeing if
it's something they've been programmed to understand (eg HTTP, which is
based off TCP which is based off IP which is based of many things, one of
which is ethernet).

Fancy switches, like the big expensive ones made by Extreme and Cisco blur
the distinction between router and switch and general implement
functionality from both camps.

The long and the short of it is:

you generally have to set up a router, and you have a router as your
incoming end of your broadband connection - there's one the other end, and
maybe lots more between that and the news server you just read this message
off.

you generally don't need to set up a switch for it to be useful, but you
might if you're being fancy.

you don't set up hubs as a rule, but they're crap because for every packet
you bang into one, it sends the same packet out all its ports. A switch
learns the correct port to use, so is more efficient.

That may or may not be as clear as mud (blame the pear cider I just had).

Yo! Pear cider! My man Kevin Minchew (well, he's his own man,
actually) brews totally awesome pear cider. Single variety, total
headf*uck.

Anyway, thanks for the learned exegesis about switches, routers and
hubs. I take the point that I've probably over-engineered the damn
thing, but I've bought the router now so I'm stuck with it. But it
looks very much as if other equally clever bods up-thread have
identified the problem (incorrect wiring) so I'll let y'all know how
it goes.

Ain't Usenet wonderful!

Edward

Ron Lowe wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Sep 17, 6:31 pm, "Ron Lowe" ronATlowe-famlyDOTmeDOTukSPURIOUS
wrote:
"Ron Lowe" ronATlowe-famlyDOTmeDOTukSPURIOUS wrote in message

...





A photograph of the back of one of the 1-gangs is he
http://www.flickr.com/photos/30588773@N04/2865124701/

The wires, from left to right, top to bottom, are

Blue; Blue/White; Orange; Green/White
Green; Orange/White; Brown; Brown/White

The wiring is the same on the matching socket of the 4-gang.

Looks like it's wired up totally wrong.
You need to look at the labeling under the wires.

Pin 1 is green/white.
Pin 2 is orange.

That's all wrong.
The pairs are all messed up.

You need to pull the wires out of the punch-downs and do them as
everyone
has indicated. Use the colour codes I listed.

Check both ends.

--
Ron

To be more specific, it looks like the Orange/white and Green/white are
swapped.

Again, check all outlets, both ends.

I have a problem with this problem, conceptually.

When I plug my laptop directly into the router, the patch cable
carries the signal directly along the cable according to how the patch
cable is wired.

However, if I plug the patch cable into the 4-gang wall socket, and an
identical patch cable from the destination 1-gang socket into my
laptop, surely the colour of the wires between the 4-gang and the 1-
gang is irrelevant, provided that the two sockets are wired the same?

--------------------------

NO.
You mis-understand a cruicial point.

The colours do not matter, ( the electrons are colour-blind) but the
fact that the pairs are twisted do.
Pins 1+3 MUST be from one twisted pair ( usually orng / orng-wht, but
could be any colour ).
Completely WRONG

see here for a very good chart.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category_5_cable

1 & 2 are a pair, 3 and 6 are a pair, 4 and 5 are a pair, and 7 ad 8 are
a pair.

Generally it doesn't matter if the pairs are wire arsy versy..as long as
the pairs are gong to the correct pins.

The most common faults I have found are badly terminated sockets..the
IDC is a bugger to get right without a proper tool, and the next problem
that has happened has been wrong grade of socket/plug. That simply
doesn't make proper contact.


Ethernet normally uses 3 and 6, and 4 and 5. We used to use the other
two pairs for telephony




Pins 3+6 MUST be from another twisted pair. ( usually grn / grn-wht, but
again, could be any colour. )

This is absolutely crucial.

Also, the arangement of pins on the outlets varies from brand to brand.

Thats true. Whats inside may not actually be 12345678 in order.

So you also need to take care of that.
You need to read the pin numbers on the faceplates and punch the wires
down using the colour-codes we have shown.

NO, use the ones in the wiki article: they are correct. Either scheme
works, as long as its the same both ends.


You just need to do what we say.

No, what the standrd is. You are talking bollox ;-)

Make the wiring at BOTH ends compliant with the standard we have indicated.
Honestly.

I've installed these things more times than I can recount.

Strange that you have managed to get it wrong every time, then.

wrote:

Anyway, thanks for the learned exegesis about switches, routers and
hubs. I take the point that I've probably over-engineered the damn
thing, but I've bought the router now so I'm stuck with it. But it

No, what you have done it the right way to do it. Had you have taken the
wires that connect to the individual sockets straight to the router then
you would have needed to terminate each of them in RJ45 plugs. This is
not only slow and tedious (much simpler and quicker buying ready made
patch leads), but also requires that you take solid core cat5 into the
plugs - which while it can be done is not ultra reliable and technically
speaking requires a different type of plug.

For bigger posher installs, then you might use a patch panel in place of
the 4 way, and a multiport switch in place of the router. That all works
nicely when its in a comms rack along with the PBX - then you can patch
voice and data to where it is needed, and change it later if required
just by re patching.

looks very much as if other equally clever bods up-thread have
identified the problem (incorrect wiring) so I'll let y'all know how
it goes.

Yup, when working with signals that are sent as a differential pair, it
is vital to make sure they are carried by a twisted pair. Just having
the right pins joined together is not enough at these frequencies.

Ain't Usenet wonderful!

tis indeed! (mostly)

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

coughed up some electrons that declared:

Yo! Pear cider! My man Kevin Minchew (well, he's his own man,
actually) brews totally awesome pear cider. Single variety, total
headf*uck.

It was some foreign stuff (Swedish I think), but at least the brain damage
is temporary.

Anyway, thanks for the learned exegesis about switches, routers and
hubs. I take the point that I've probably over-engineered the damn
thing, but I've bought the router now so I'm stuck with it.

Not quite - you've not wasted your money. You need the router (usually part
of an ADSL modem) to get anywhere.

The switch is optional, but does mean that you can get away with running 1
cable half way round your house instead of several, if your layout demands
it.

Cheers

Tim

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Ron Lowe wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Sep 17, 6:31 pm, "Ron Lowe" ronATlowe-famlyDOTmeDOTukSPURIOUS
wrote:
"Ron Lowe" ronATlowe-famlyDOTmeDOTukSPURIOUS wrote in message

...





A photograph of the back of one of the 1-gangs is he
http://www.flickr.com/photos/30588773@N04/2865124701/

The wires, from left to right, top to bottom, are

Blue; Blue/White; Orange; Green/White
Green; Orange/White; Brown; Brown/White

The wiring is the same on the matching socket of the 4-gang.

Looks like it's wired up totally wrong.
You need to look at the labeling under the wires.

Pin 1 is green/white.
Pin 2 is orange.

That's all wrong.
The pairs are all messed up.

You need to pull the wires out of the punch-downs and do them as
everyone
has indicated. Use the colour codes I listed.

Check both ends.

--
Ron

To be more specific, it looks like the Orange/white and Green/white are
swapped.

Again, check all outlets, both ends.

I have a problem with this problem, conceptually.

When I plug my laptop directly into the router, the patch cable
carries the signal directly along the cable according to how the patch
cable is wired.

However, if I plug the patch cable into the 4-gang wall socket, and an
identical patch cable from the destination 1-gang socket into my
laptop, surely the colour of the wires between the 4-gang and the 1-
gang is irrelevant, provided that the two sockets are wired the same?

--------------------------

NO.
You mis-understand a cruicial point.

The colours do not matter, ( the electrons are colour-blind) but the fact
that the pairs are twisted do.
Pins 1+3 MUST be from one twisted pair ( usually orng / orng-wht, but
could be any colour ).
Completely WRONG


Yes, Yes.

Obvious Typo.
Se my previous posts.
1+2, 3+6.
Well spotted.

But my main point was that the COLOUR of the pair doesn't actually matter.
What matters is that the pairs are maintained.

1+2, 3+6.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

Strange that you have managed to get it wrong every time, then.



Demonstrably facually incorrect.
Not 'every time', just on that post, as I accept.

My original posts were correct.
I'll re-post it just for the avoidance of doubt.

I'd expect it to be:

1 Orange / White
2 Solid Orange
3 Green / White
4 Solid Blue
5 Blue / White
6 Solid Green
7 Brown / White
8 Solid Brown

( The Orange twisted pair may be swapped withthe Green twisted pair on some
installations, that's OK )

What's important it the twisted pairs.
One pair ( usually orange ) is used for pins 1+2.
Another pair ( usually green ) is used for pins 3+6.
This is critical.
The blue pair and brown pair are only used on gigabit and / or PoE systems,
but these are becoming commonplace, and should be wired up correctly too.

--
Ron

wrote:

The router is a Netgear ADSL Firewall Router DG834.

The DG834 has "Auto Uplink" ports which means that it eliminates the need to
worry about crossover cables. It will accommodate either type of cable and
make the appropriate internal adjustments automatically to make the right
connection.

As others have said, it looks like you just need to get the fixed wiring
sorted to ensure the wires are paired off in the right order.

--
Mike Clarke

On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 20:02:56 +0100, Ron Lowe wrote:

Pins 1+3 MUST be from one twisted pair ( usually orng / orng-wht, but
could be any colour ).
Pins 3+6 MUST be from another twisted pair. ( usually grn / grn-wht, but
again, could be any colour. )

This is absolutely crucial.
snip
You just need to do what we say.
snip
I've installed these things more times than I can recount.

You better recount your pin numbers, I'm intriged by the common use of pin
3 between two pairs. So on balance I think it's probably best if the OP
does not "do what we say". B-)

Looking at the picture of the socket back it does appear that the grn/wht
and org/wht wires are transposed. Look at the colour coding blobs half
hidden by the wires. It's normal to have adjacent terminals to be a pair
not have them split apart. Having them apart plays havoc with the
impedance an possibly the balance as well.

--
Cheers
Dave.

In article ,
Tim S wrote:
You mate with the cheap more-or-less DC buzz-through tool (which is what
your description sounds like) proved the pin assignments are correct.
Those tools do not prove the cable is wired properly. Proper test kit
costs 1000's and does time domain reflectrometry and/or other impressive
sounding tests to prove it's right.

Perhaps it came from the same place as the 'crimp tool' he used?

--
*You can't teach an old mouse new clicks *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) coughed up some electrons that declared:

In article ,
Tim S wrote:
You mate with the cheap more-or-less DC buzz-through tool (which is what
your description sounds like) proved the pin assignments are correct.
Those tools do not prove the cable is wired properly. Proper test kit
costs 1000's and does time domain reflectrometry and/or other impressive
sounding tests to prove it's right.

Perhaps it came from the same place as the 'crimp tool' he used?


Silly thing is, TDR type kit would be total overkill for a few wires in a
small office or residence. It's very useful when you've laid in 400 cables
and you want to prove they're all good for gig (or even 10gig) so you don;t
spend the next n-years tracking down obscure computer faults that relate to
dodgey cabling.

For simple installations, paying attention to the wire colours and
workmanship on the punchdowns is more than adequate to get 1000baseT
reliably without much sweat. For final testing, I patch a laptop through to
a switch where both can do gig then run a bandwidth test tool (ie flood the
link for a few minutes) then look for any errors at the interface level -
poor mans test, but at least it's realistic.

Perhaps over-reliance on a test tool in the belief it was testing
everything?

Cheers

Tim

On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 22:58:23 +0100, Tim S wrote:

Perhaps over-reliance on a test tool in the belief it was testing
everything?

Probably or lack of understanding of the test tools limitations. A simple
DC loop tester will check for correct "pairs" and a single or multiple
*different* wiring errors would be detected. However it won't pickup the
*same* wiring error at each end of the cable, that does require far more
sophisticated kit to detect.

--
Cheers
Dave.

John Rumm wrote:

Yup, when working with signals that are sent as a differential pair, it
is vital to make sure they are carried by a twisted pair. Just having
the right pins joined together is not enough at these frequencies.

It's also important to maintain the twisting of each pair right up as
close as possible to the IDC terminals of the socket. The 'as
installed' picture provided didn't show particularly good practice in
this respect.

Now can I ask a supplementary Ethernet question about switches while all
the networking experts are around? Can you cascade the cheap unmanaged
switches /ad-infinitum/ and maintain communication between all nodes?
For example say two ports from a typical 4-port ADSL router, R, each
feed remote 8-port switches, A & B. Each switch provides 7 ports used
to connect local network devices. In this network will a device on
switch A be able to communicate with a device on switch B, via the
switch in R?

--
Andy

Andy Wade wrote:

Yup, when working with signals that are sent as a differential pair,
it is vital to make sure they are carried by a twisted pair. Just
having the right pins joined together is not enough at these frequencies.

It's also important to maintain the twisting of each pair right up as
close as possible to the IDC terminals of the socket. The 'as
installed' picture provided didn't show particularly good practice in
this respect.

Indeed. You will usually get away with it at 10Mb, and often at 100Mbit,
but don't expect gigabit to like it!

Now can I ask a supplementary Ethernet question about switches while all
the networking experts are around? Can you cascade the cheap unmanaged
switches /ad-infinitum/ and maintain communication between all nodes?

With switches - yes, there are no longer any practical limits on
chaining segments. With older style hubs there was a limit as they acted
as simple repeaters, and kept the whole network as a single collision
detection zone. Hence it also had to all run at the same speed.
Switches are smarter. While initially they will behave a little like
hubs (in the limited sense that they will forward all packets to all
ports), they will learn which MAC addresses are on which ports and stop
forwarding traffic to segments unnecessarily.

For example say two ports from a typical 4-port ADSL router, R, each
feed remote 8-port switches, A & B. Each switch provides 7 ports used
to connect local network devices. In this network will a device on
switch A be able to communicate with a device on switch B, via the
switch in R?

Yup, that would be fine.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

wrote in message
...
When we had our extension built recently, I took the opportunity to
install a Cat5 LAN. Well, to be more accurate, the electrician ran
the cabling in but said he didn't do network wiring so the tails sat
there for a while until eldest son got his new laptop. I got a friend
who is an experienced network engineer with his crimping tool to
install the face plates for the network points.

A diagram of the network is he

http://www.flickr.com/photos/30588773@N04/2864919945/

The engineer had a wee gizmo that he plugged into the individual
points and then another into the 4-gang which lit up to show that the
wires were correctly connected. Everything seemed fine and dandy and,
as I say, he's an experienced engineer.

Unfortunately the network doesn't work. A laptop plugged into any of
the individual 1-gang outlets can't see the network. However, if it's
plugged directly into the back of the router, all is fine.

Anyone any thoughts? I bought the cable from work (we do network
installations, though I'm a software engineer myself) - it's
unshielded twisted pair, and it's what we have in our work LAN.

Thanks


One obvious answer is that you have patch leads with cross-overs in them.
Assuming you haven't checked this, get two leads that work connecting the
laptop into the router and use one of these as a patch lead. If you have
already tried this or it still fails, maybe there's a crossover in the
installed cables - try a patch lead with a crossover! Otherwise, in spite of
his test, the cabling isn't correct.


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

"Andy Wade" wrote in message
...


Now can I ask a supplementary Ethernet question about switches while all
the networking experts are around? Can you cascade the cheap unmanaged
switches /ad-infinitum/ and maintain communication between all nodes? For
example say two ports from a typical 4-port ADSL router, R, each feed
remote 8-port switches, A & B. Each switch provides 7 ports used to
connect local network devices. In this network will a device on switch A
be able to communicate with a device on switch B, via the switch in R?

Within certain limits yes.
Each switch will add a small delay.
If the total delay exceeds the protocol timeout you are using it will fail
even though the packets are being delivered.
In practice it is a lot of switches.
I dimension the UK for switched local access once and had it put to the
board at BT.
It was to give 100M access to every home (and 1G if paid for) but they
didn't like it as it wasn't fibre and "the press would crucify us".
I won't tell you the estimated cost but it wasn't as expensive as the £28
billion talked about in the press by a long way.

They did steal some of my ideas though..

like putting a wireless receiver as the termination node of the wires and
then running a public wireless network from it.
I wouldn't be surprised if they make small water proof network switches and
drop them down the access holes either as that was what was intended..
string together as many as needed to get to the end point with 100M TP teed
off as you went.

The best one was how to power it.. obvious really just get the power from
the customers node, its copper so getting a few watts was easy.

On 18/09/2008 09:38, dennis@home wrote:

I dimension the UK for switched local access once and had it put to the
board at BT.
It was to give 100M access to every home

The limiting factor in that case is more likely to be the size of the
MAC address tables in the switches.

On 17 Sep, 17:10, "Ron Lowe" ronATlowe-famlyDOTmeDOTukSPURIOUS
wrote:
wrote in message

...





When we had our extension built recently, I took the opportunity to
install a Cat5 LAN. *Well, to be more accurate, the electrician ran
the cabling in but said he didn't do network wiring so the tails sat
there for a while until eldest son got his new laptop. *I got a friend
who is an experienced network engineer with his crimping tool to
install the face plates for the network points.

A diagram of the network is he

http://www.flickr.com/photos/30588773@N04/2864919945/

The engineer had a wee gizmo that he plugged into the individual
points and then another into the 4-gang which lit up to show that the
wires were correctly connected. *Everything seemed fine and dandy and,
as I say, he's an experienced engineer.

Unfortunately the network doesn't work. *A laptop plugged into any of
the individual 1-gang outlets can't see the network. *However, if it's
plugged directly into the back of the router, all is fine.

Anyone any thoughts? *I bought the cable from work (we do network
installations, though I'm a software engineer myself) - it's
unshielded twisted pair, and it's what we have in our work LAN.

Thanks

Edward

In addition to what the others have said ( incorrect patch cables ); can you
unscrew the face-plates, and either take a picture or describe what wires
have been punched down into which terminals?

I'd expect it to be:

1 Orange / White
2 Solid Orange
3 Green / White
4 Solid Blue
5 Blue / White
6 Solid Green
7 Brown / White
8 Solid Brown

( The Orange twisted pair may be swapped withthe Green twisted pair on some
installations, that's OK )

What's important it the twisted pairs.
One pair ( usually orange ) is used for pins 1+2.
Another pair ( usually green ) is used for pins 3+6.
This is critical.
The blue pair and brown pair are only used on gigabit and / or PoE systems,
but these are becoming commonplace, and should be wired up correctly too.

A common wiring error is to use one pair for 1+2,
another for 3+4, another for 5+6, another for 7+8.
This will not work properly.

It is essential that one twisted pair is used for 3+6, as described above..

The only thing missing in this feast of information is how the
individual pins are numbered on the socket. I can find how they're
numbered on the cable, but not the socket.

Edward