At last I got around to replacing the panel in the basement. Although
the old one (Cutler-Hammer CH about 30 years old) still had one breaker
space available, there was just no room to work in it and I needed still
more spaces. Moreover, many of the holes in the bus bar had two or more
wires, which I understand is not good.

This panel had only branch-circuit breakers, the "Main Switch" (tied
100A breakers) being in a panel in the garage (back-to-back with the
meter), with that panel containing just one other breaker feeding the
garage lights and outlets.

The first thing I noticed was that when I switched off that "Main
Switch" in the garage, the garage circuits were still live; IOW, the
breaker for the garage circuits were connected directly to the meter. So
the "Main Switch" is not really a *Main* switch.

When I started ripping out the wires (previously labeled) from the panel
in the basement, I discovered things I had not noticed before because it
was just too crowded to see or because I had never checked:

(a) The box bonding screw was not screwed down, so was the box even
grounded properly?

(b) The ground conductor from the panel in the garage was not connected
to anything: it was just folded back on itself and stuffed into a
corner, hidden by branch-circuit wiring. (The branch circuits
nevertheless had grounds, because their neutrals and their grounds were
both connected to the one bus bar that was connected to the neutral
conductor from the panel in the garage.)

Was this kosher at the time it was done (30+ years ago)? My
understanding is that now the "Main Switch" in the garage would be
considered the "Service Disconnect", the main breaker in the new panel I
have installed would be the "Main", and there should be separate ground
and neutral buses in the panel in the basement (now technically a
sub-panel). Have I got this werong?

The new panel (32-space 200A CH) has separate neutral and ground buses.
I connected the neutral from the panel in the garage to the neutral bus
and the ground to the ground bus, but did not connect them together in
this panel. Is this correct?

Perce

The panel in your garage is for "main" breakers only, and it can have up to
six. You have two, one for the sub panel and one for the garage. The main
breaker for the basement sub panel should be sized to the conductors feeding
the panel, and if it is in the same building, a second disconnect is not
required at the sub panel. The bonding jumper that was not connected on the
old panel should NOT be connected on the new panel either. The neutral and
ground busses should be separate and fed from individual conductors


"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote in message
...
At last I got around to replacing the panel in the basement. Although the
old one (Cutler-Hammer CH about 30 years old) still had one breaker space
available, there was just no room to work in it and I needed still more
spaces. Moreover, many of the holes in the bus bar had two or more wires,
which I understand is not good.

This panel had only branch-circuit breakers, the "Main Switch" (tied 100A
breakers) being in a panel in the garage (back-to-back with the meter),
with that panel containing just one other breaker feeding the garage
lights and outlets.

The first thing I noticed was that when I switched off that "Main Switch"
in the garage, the garage circuits were still live; IOW, the breaker for
the garage circuits were connected directly to the meter. So the "Main
Switch" is not really a *Main* switch.

When I started ripping out the wires (previously labeled) from the panel
in the basement, I discovered things I had not noticed before because it
was just too crowded to see or because I had never checked:

(a) The box bonding screw was not screwed down, so was the box even
grounded properly?

(b) The ground conductor from the panel in the garage was not connected to
anything: it was just folded back on itself and stuffed into a corner,
hidden by branch-circuit wiring. (The branch circuits nevertheless had
grounds, because their neutrals and their grounds were both connected to
the one bus bar that was connected to the neutral conductor from the panel
in the garage.)

Was this kosher at the time it was done (30+ years ago)? My understanding
is that now the "Main Switch" in the garage would be considered the
"Service Disconnect", the main breaker in the new panel I have installed
would be the "Main", and there should be separate ground and neutral buses
in the panel in the basement (now technically a sub-panel). Have I got
this werong?

The new panel (32-space 200A CH) has separate neutral and ground buses. I
connected the neutral from the panel in the garage to the neutral bus and
the ground to the ground bus, but did not connect them together in this
panel. Is this correct?

Perce

Interspersed responses follow.

On 11/14/06 07:05 am RBM wrote:

The panel in your garage is for "main" breakers only, and it can have up to
six. You have two, one for the sub panel and one for the garage.

So this does not count as the "Service Disconnect"?

The main
breaker for the basement sub panel should be sized to the conductors feeding
the panel,

But the conductors feeding the sub panel are already protected by the
100A breakers in the panel in the garage. If the total load exceeds
100A, the breakers in the garage should trip.

. . . and if it is in the same building, a second disconnect is not
required at the sub panel.

Not having a disconnect at the sub panel is the equivalent of not having
a main breaker for that sub panel, isn't it? The old sub panel did not
have a main breaker.

The bonding jumper that was not connected on the
old panel should NOT be connected on the new panel either.

There was a separate very small bus (Ground?) in the old panel, but
there were no connections to it and it did not seem to be possible to
isolate it from the other bus (to which both grounds and neutrals were
connected -- and this was the bus with the loose box bonding screw).

The neutral and
ground busses should be separate and fed from individual conductors

And that is what I have now.

Perce


At last I got around to replacing the panel in the basement. Although the
old one (Cutler-Hammer CH about 30 years old) still had one breaker space
available, there was just no room to work in it and I needed still more
spaces. Moreover, many of the holes in the bus bar had two or more wires,
which I understand is not good.

This panel had only branch-circuit breakers, the "Main Switch" (tied 100A
breakers) being in a panel in the garage (back-to-back with the meter),
with that panel containing just one other breaker feeding the garage
lights and outlets.

The first thing I noticed was that when I switched off that "Main Switch"
in the garage, the garage circuits were still live; IOW, the breaker for
the garage circuits were connected directly to the meter. So the "Main
Switch" is not really a *Main* switch.

When I started ripping out the wires (previously labeled) from the panel
in the basement, I discovered things I had not noticed before because it
was just too crowded to see or because I had never checked:

(a) The box bonding screw was not screwed down, so was the box even
grounded properly?

(b) The ground conductor from the panel in the garage was not connected to
anything: it was just folded back on itself and stuffed into a corner,
hidden by branch-circuit wiring. (The branch circuits nevertheless had
grounds, because their neutrals and their grounds were both connected to
the one bus bar that was connected to the neutral conductor from the panel
in the garage.)

Was this kosher at the time it was done (30+ years ago)? My understanding
is that now the "Main Switch" in the garage would be considered the
"Service Disconnect", the main breaker in the new panel I have installed
would be the "Main", and there should be separate ground and neutral buses
in the panel in the basement (now technically a sub-panel). Have I got
this wrong?

The new panel (32-space 200A CH) has separate neutral and ground buses. I
connected the neutral from the panel in the garage to the neutral bus and
the ground to the ground bus, but did not connect them together in this
panel. Is this correct?

In your case, you have two service disconnects, you are allowed up to six

You've already got the main feeder protected by the 100 amp breaker and
don't need another main breaker in or at the sub panel
The Neutral buss should be insulated on plastic blocks and the ground buss
should be in contact with or bonded to the metal of the panel



"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote in message
...
Interspersed responses follow.

On 11/14/06 07:05 am RBM wrote:

The panel in your garage is for "main" breakers only, and it can have up
to six. You have two, one for the sub panel and one for the garage.

So this does not count as the "Service Disconnect"?

The main breaker for the basement sub panel should be sized to the
conductors feeding the panel,

But the conductors feeding the sub panel are already protected by the 100A
breakers in the panel in the garage. If the total load exceeds 100A, the
breakers in the garage should trip.

. . . and if it is in the same building, a second disconnect is not
required at the sub panel.

Not having a disconnect at the sub panel is the equivalent of not having a
main breaker for that sub panel, isn't it? The old sub panel did not have
a main breaker.

The bonding jumper that was not connected on the old panel should NOT be
connected on the new panel either.

There was a separate very small bus (Ground?) in the old panel, but there
were no connections to it and it did not seem to be possible to isolate it
from the other bus (to which both grounds and neutrals were connected --
and this was the bus with the loose box bonding screw).

The neutral and ground busses should be separate and fed from individual
conductors

And that is what I have now.

Perce


At last I got around to replacing the panel in the basement. Although
the old one (Cutler-Hammer CH about 30 years old) still had one breaker
space available, there was just no room to work in it and I needed still
more spaces. Moreover, many of the holes in the bus bar had two or more
wires, which I understand is not good.

This panel had only branch-circuit breakers, the "Main Switch" (tied
100A breakers) being in a panel in the garage (back-to-back with the
meter), with that panel containing just one other breaker feeding the
garage lights and outlets.

The first thing I noticed was that when I switched off that "Main
Switch" in the garage, the garage circuits were still live; IOW, the
breaker for the garage circuits were connected directly to the meter. So
the "Main Switch" is not really a *Main* switch.

When I started ripping out the wires (previously labeled) from the panel
in the basement, I discovered things I had not noticed before because it
was just too crowded to see or because I had never checked:

(a) The box bonding screw was not screwed down, so was the box even
grounded properly?

(b) The ground conductor from the panel in the garage was not connected
to anything: it was just folded back on itself and stuffed into a
corner, hidden by branch-circuit wiring. (The branch circuits
nevertheless had grounds, because their neutrals and their grounds were
both connected to the one bus bar that was connected to the neutral
conductor from the panel in the garage.)

Was this kosher at the time it was done (30+ years ago)? My
understanding is that now the "Main Switch" in the garage would be
considered the "Service Disconnect", the main breaker in the new panel I
have installed would be the "Main", and there should be separate ground
and neutral buses in the panel in the basement (now technically a
sub-panel). Have I got this wrong?

The new panel (32-space 200A CH) has separate neutral and ground buses.
I connected the neutral from the panel in the garage to the neutral bus
and the ground to the ground bus, but did not connect them together in
this panel. Is this correct?