Andy Dingley wrote:

On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 13:10:46 GMT, Unisaw A100
wrote:

Craftsman (Sears) also enjoys
a perception that their tools are the finest one can buy.

Really ? Now I'm in the wrong country to really be familiar with
these things, but my impression was always that they were about as
good as Black & Decker (i.e. not very).

Depends on the tool and the product line. Their Craftsman-brand hand tools
are still pretty good. In their portable power tools they have "Craftsman"
and "Craftsman Professional", with "Craftsman Professional" being quite
good--they're often major brands with a Sears label and possibly slightly
changed trim. Their current Craftsman Professional jigsaw is a black Bosch
for example. Sears also carries selected models from other brands. Their
stationary power tools are for the most part not very good, but they're
apparently trying to turn that around.

Lately I've been wearing out Eclipse hacksaw blades, even the bi-metal
ones. This _really_ annoys me, because I have another of their blades,
supposedly identical, that I know I've been using for twenty years. If
you ever let the quality slip, it does get noticed.


--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"J. Clarke" wrote in message

Depends on the tool and the product line. Their Craftsman-brand hand
tools
are still pretty good.


Not compared to the 40 year old Craftsman tools I have. They have been
cheapened and I won't buy them.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:


"J. Clarke" wrote in message

Depends on the tool and the product line. Their Craftsman-brand hand
tools
are still pretty good.


Not compared to the 40 year old Craftsman tools I have. They have been
cheapened and I won't buy them.

I'm curious. What deficiencies do you observe in, say, a new open-end
wrench compared to the 40 year old open-end wrench?

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

I just picked up a NEW Starrett 6" square for about 20% off retail,
including shipping) but I had to trust a guy on (gulp) eBay.

Bob

"Jay Pique" wrote in message
...
I'd love to source all of my precision measuring devices from
Starrett, but at double and triple the price of almost identical tools
from overseas I'm having a tough time mustering up enough patriotism
to justify the additional cash outlay.

I'll be honest, I *trust* Starrett, and I'd like to use their products
where I can in the shop - not only for the whole "buy American" thing,
but for the peace of mind that comes from knowing that I can eliminate
measuring errors from the list of causes of my myriad ****ups. Anyone
have any experience negotiating directly with Starrett to get more
competitive pricing? Just wondering...

Oh yeah - it looks like Lee Valley is making straightedges now. A
four or six footer would sure be nice for the jointer... Dad's a
Canuck so I guess I can feel ok buying (and buying, and buying...)
from them!!

JP
*************************
NAFTA friendly.

I got the aluminium (soft metal, Cody) and it's a peach.

Bob

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...
Phisherman repeats:

Oh yeah - it looks like Lee Valley is making straightedges now. A
four or six footer would sure be nice for the jointer... Dad's a
Canuck so I guess I can feel ok buying (and buying, and buying...)
from them!!

JP

OK! I knew they were working on the straightedge. I'll have to see if my
boss
will free up a check in the next few days. That price is right on the
steel
model. Aluminum, too, but I'm clumsy enough to screw that up, so will go
with
steel.

Charlie Self
"I have always felt that a politician is to be judged by the animosities
he
excites among his opponents." Sir Winston Churchill

"J. Clarke" wrote in message

I'm curious. What deficiencies do you observe in, say, a new open-end
wrench compared to the 40 year old open-end wrench?


Functional style The older wrenches were easier to use, the heads had a
better angle. The box wrenches had a true offset, not just a bend on the
end allowing you to put more torque on a nut. The newer ones are cheaper to
make.

Some of the better screwdrivers do have a better grip (rounded for the hand)
than the old ones.

The new sockets do have the size imprinted in very large numbers. That is
handy for the weekend warrior, but a pro can sight the 9/16 over the 5/8 at
twenty feet in the dark. The new sockets are cheaper in other ways though.

On Mon, 06 Sep 2004 11:14:29 GMT, Glen wrote:


Actually this survey makes perfect sense. If you ask Joe Homeowner, who
uses a tool once every few months, to name some tool brands, probably
the first (and in many cases only) brand name he'll come up with will be
Sears. When he goes to the mall with his wife he probably sees all
those cool toys and imagines them great, having no basis of comparison.
As someone else mentioned earlier in this thread, few of the other
companies advertise at all to the mass media (Joe Howeowner doesn't read
FW, PW, AW or Wood Mag. to see the other ads).

Glen

I agree if the measure is of brand recognition. I must respectfully disagree
with the "perfect sense" if the survey is supposed to be an objective measure
of quality.

Note the column headed "salience". That is the percentage of responders who
claimed to know enough to have a valid opinion. I didn't see any indication that
the "non-salient" opinions were excluded from the tally. Therefore I assume Joe
Homeowner's opinion was counted whether or not he claimed to be "aware and
informed enough to rate the brand".

"In my ("salient", "non-salient" - choose one) opinion that invalidates the
survey for anything other than a "now isn't that nice" exercise.



Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS USA

J. Clarke wrote:
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:


"J. Clarke" wrote in message

Depends on the tool and the product line. Their Craftsman-brand hand
tools
are still pretty good.


Not compared to the 40 year old Craftsman tools I have. They have been
cheapened and I won't buy them.


I'm curious. What deficiencies do you observe in, say, a new open-end
wrench compared to the 40 year old open-end wrench?


My introduction to changes occurred when my "favorite" wrench, a 1/2 x
9/16 box end finally wore out. This was the only wrench I had that could
operate on some really sadistically placed header bolts. It had thin
walls, a great profile, and tons of available leverage. Probably made
sometime before the 70's. The replacement had thicker walls which
probably made it stronger, but it would no longer work on those
difficult bolts. The openings were also stamped off-center (all of them
in the bin at the store were this way) and it was overall more crudely
constructed.

-BR



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On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 12:54:20 GMT, Unisaw A100 wrote:

Mike at American Sycamore wrote:
I have had good luck at the Pawn Shops finding deals on Starrett.


Ditto what Mike said though I've taken the route of finding
them at garage/estate sales. Of course it never hurts that
we did once upon a time employ an inordinate amount of
machinists here in the upper midwest.

Also, eBay and don't stay stuck too long on Starrett when
there are also the Unions, the Lufkins, the Mitutoyos, the
PECs, the STIs, the Brown and Sharpes, and the Scherr
Tumicos.

UA100, who paid/pays around $10-$20 (1) average for a 12"
Starrett 3-piece combo...

(1) One does have to uncover a lot of garage/estate sales
to find a decent tool or two at great prices and whilst one
could/should/would factor in this time as it relates to the
cost of the purchase one could/should/would also offset this
factor/cost with the thrill of the hunt for it's own
entertainment value. I mean, what better way to kill a
Saturday than to hunt down tool and machine bargains?...

Um, maybe killing that Saturday in the shop *making* something. But
then,I forgot, you have the sawdust-free shop.

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 20:22:08 -0700, Mark & Juanita
wrote:

On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 12:54:20 GMT, Unisaw A100 wrote:

Mike at American Sycamore wrote:
I have had good luck at the Pawn Shops finding deals on Starrett.


Ditto what Mike said though I've taken the route of finding
them at garage/estate sales. Of course it never hurts that
we did once upon a time employ an inordinate amount of
machinists here in the upper midwest.

Also, eBay and don't stay stuck too long on Starrett when
there are also the Unions, the Lufkins, the Mitutoyos, the
PECs, the STIs, the Brown and Sharpes, and the Scherr
Tumicos.

UA100, who paid/pays around $10-$20 (1) average for a 12"
Starrett 3-piece combo...

(1) One does have to uncover a lot of garage/estate sales
to find a decent tool or two at great prices and whilst one
could/should/would factor in this time as it relates to the
cost of the purchase one could/should/would also offset this
factor/cost with the thrill of the hunt for it's own
entertainment value. I mean, what better way to kill a
Saturday than to hunt down tool and machine bargains?...

Um, maybe killing that Saturday in the shop *making* something. But
then,I forgot, you have the sawdust-free shop.


Keeter, Sorry about that, I really meant to include a smiley at the end
of that comment. No disrespect nor derision were intended, only a slight
amount of ribbing.

Just getting back to where teranews is posting again.

BruceR wrote:

I'm curious. What deficiencies do you observe in, say, a new open-end
wrench compared to the 40 year old open-end wrench?



Softer material and looser tolerances for a couple of things. I have
seen some cheap sockets strip themselves on hard bolts. Conversely, I have
seen cheap box-end wrenches round over nuts because they are too loose and
slip around the nut instead of tightly fitting it. I have also seen
cheaper open-end wrenches flex open around nuts and also round them over.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:


"J. Clarke" wrote in message

I'm curious. What deficiencies do you observe in, say, a new open-end
wrench compared to the 40 year old open-end wrench?


Functional style The older wrenches were easier to use, the heads had a
better angle.

Are you talking about open end wrenches or something else? If open-end
theirs seem to have the same "angle" as every other manufacturer and the
new ones seem to have the same angle as the ones I used in the '60s.

The box wrenches had a true offset, not just a bend on the
end allowing you to put more torque on a nut. The newer ones are cheaper
to make.

Actually, they have both kinds.

Some of the better screwdrivers do have a better grip (rounded for the
hand) than the old ones.

The new sockets do have the size imprinted in very large numbers. That
is handy for the weekend warrior, but a pro can sight the 9/16 over the
5/8 at
twenty feet in the dark.

A pro who doesn't need bifocals maybe.

The new sockets are cheaper in other ways
though.

Such as?

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Larry Kraus wrote:

BruceR wrote:

I'm curious. What deficiencies do you observe in, say, a new open-end
wrench compared to the 40 year old open-end wrench?


My introduction to changes occurred when my "favorite" wrench, a 1/2 x
9/16 box end finally wore out. This was the only wrench I had that could
operate on some really sadistically placed header bolts. It had thin
walls, a great profile, and tons of available leverage. Probably made
sometime before the 70's. The replacement had thicker walls which
probably made it stronger, but it would no longer work on those
difficult bolts. The openings were also stamped off-center (all of them
in the bin at the store were this way) and it was overall more crudely
constructed.

My experience exactly. I had the same problems with replacement
sockets and pliers, except the overall crudeness of the replacements
leads me to suspect that the extra thickness is to compensate for
weaker alloys. I seem to break replacements, the originals wore out.
That "lifetime warranty" would mean more if the replacements were the
same quality as the original. As it is, I feel that the Sears warranty
is being fulfilled by Kmart.

Are you talking about the standard or the "pro" line?

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Mark & Juanita wrote:
Um, maybe killing that Saturday in the shop *making* something. But
then,I forgot, you have the sawdust-free shop.

Keeter, Sorry about that, I really meant to include a smiley at the end
of that comment. No disrespect nor derision were intended, only a slight
amount of ribbing.

Zat's OK. Smiley or no smiley my come back was/would have
been, why yes, all my saw dust is free.

Or something like that.

Just getting back to where teranews is posting again.

Muzzles suck, don't they?

UA100

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
The new sockets are cheaper in other ways
though.

Such as?

The method of forging them.

I don't recall all th e details of the differences as I've not bothered to
look at them for a few years now. Find an old tool set and take it to the
store with you. Chances are, you'll buy another brand after making the
comparisons.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:


"J. Clarke" wrote in message
The new sockets are cheaper in other ways
though.

Such as?

The method of forging them.

Does the new method make them inferior in some way?

I don't recall all th e details of the differences as I've not bothered to
look at them for a few years now. Find an old tool set and take it to the
store with you. Chances are, you'll buy another brand after making the
comparisons.

So you are basing your views on the performance of current production vs old
production on examing tools in a store? You've not used the current
production and found them lacking?




--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"J. Clarke" wrote in message

Does the new method make them inferior in some way?

Yes, the inside of the socket is different and affects the epth it can use.




So you are basing your views on the performance of current production vs
old
production on examing tools in a store? You've not used the current
production and found them lacking?

I have a couple of the combination wrenches. I used them. They are
lacking. They are not as good as my old ones.

Since you seem intent on finding all the details, go buy a couple of the new
tools and then stop by my house. I'll get out my original 40 year old
Craftsman toolbox, all the tools (most of them) I still have from the
original set and well try them out, one by one. You can then decide from
your own experience which set is better. I have a couple of things to do on
my car so we can give them an honest workout. Is Saturday OK for you?
Ed

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:


"J. Clarke" wrote in message

Does the new method make them inferior in some way?

Yes, the inside of the socket is different and affects the epth it can
use.

Odd. All of mine seem to be relieved to the full depth of the socket--the
only thing that's going to restrict the depth is the drive itself.

So you are basing your views on the performance of current production vs
old
production on examing tools in a store? You've not used the current
production and found them lacking?

I have a couple of the combination wrenches. I used them. They are
lacking. They are not as good as my old ones.

But what was the nature of the lack?

Since you seem intent on finding all the details, go buy a couple of the
new
tools and then stop by my house. I'll get out my original 40 year old
Craftsman toolbox, all the tools (most of them) I still have from the
original set and well try them out, one by one. You can then decide from
your own experience which set is better. I have a couple of things to do
on
my car so we can give them an honest workout. Is Saturday OK for you?

Where are you located? Might take you up on that if it's not too far. You
drink beer?

Ed

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 08:27:27 GMT, Unisaw A100 wrote:

Mark & Juanita wrote:
.... snip
Just getting back to where teranews is posting again.

Muzzles suck, don't they?


You ain't kidding. Somewhere about last Wednesday, I was able to read
rec.ww, but all attempts to post resulted in connection timeouts. I wrote
Teranews "help" desk the following request for help (BTW, I have the paid
account, not the free account):

For the past 4 days, I have been unable to post to any of the newsgroups
to which I subscribe (rec.woodworking,
alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking). I am able to download headers and
read the groups, but am unable to post; all postings come back with a
timeout error after several minutes of attempting to post.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Regards,

To which the ever-helpful folks at Teranews had the following response:

"All 3.95 one time setup fee ( free accounts ) use the free.teranews.com on
port 119 news server only in your news client. All monthly billed
accounts use the news.teranews.com news server on port 119 or
alt.teranews.com on port 443 in your news client only.
Login to the manage accounts area with your username and password to
verify it says active before your username and password will work."

Somehow, I think a "help-bot" is the only help available at Teranews. It
probably keyed off my signature that included the verbiage: Username:
name

UA100

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...


Odd. All of mine seem to be relieved to the full depth of the socket--the
only thing that's going to restrict the depth is the drive itself.

Not on the replacement 3/4" I just looked at. About half way up the inside
there is a shoulder that would stop the head. Maybe they changed them
again.




But what was the nature of the lack?

Its a touchy feely thing. You can't get into the same spots and leverage
because of the angle of the ends and the grip does not seem as good in use.




Where are you located? Might take you up on that if it's not too far.
You
drink beer?

I'm in northeast CT. Yep, I even have a bottle of chili beer (with the
chili pepper inside) if you want to give it a try.

On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 13:10:46 GMT, Unisaw A100
wrote:

(1) Yes I know there are *some* good/great Craftsman
tools/machines but on a whole it's safer to assume that you
won't be buying the best and crying once.

Yes. IF you buy the older Craftsman tools. I asked my dad to send me
one of me late grandfather's combo square. I was disappointed to see
"Craftsman" etched into it...BUT, was surprised at how good it was
once I started using it! It was probably bought in the the 50s, 60s or
70s when Craftsman tools were made well.

Won't be buying a Starret or Mitutoyo combo square for a while,

Layne

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:


"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...


Odd. All of mine seem to be relieved to the full depth of the
socket--the only thing that's going to restrict the depth is the drive
itself.

Not on the replacement 3/4" I just looked at. About half way up the inside
there is a shoulder that would stop the head. Maybe they changed them
again.




But what was the nature of the lack?

Its a touchy feely thing. You can't get into the same spots and leverage
because of the angle of the ends and the grip does not seem as good in
use.




Where are you located? Might take you up on that if it's not too far.
You
drink beer?

I'm in northeast CT. Yep, I even have a bottle of chili beer (with the
chili pepper inside) if you want to give it a try.

Sounds good. Unfortunately I find myself paying by the mile until Monday
(seems an oil change turned into a $2k repair job drat it all). Rain
check?

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
Sounds good. Unfortunately I find myself paying by the mile until Monday
(seems an oil change turned into a $2k repair job drat it all). Rain
check?

Any time.