So, I've been dealing with Walnut recently and how to finish it.... I've
recently moved to where the weather has been very warm; high 90s to 100
degrees F, and probably warmer in the garage. I store all my varnishes,
oils, etc indoors where the temp is a nice 78. Now on to the problem....

I've been having a problem with ANY finish I apply to the Walnut immediately
turns it black. You name it... Waterlox, Arm-R-Seal, Seal-A-Cell, Linseed
Oil, Danish Oil, Tung Oil, Teak Oil, etc. Now, I am applying these finishes
in the warm garage. I have no problem with gumming up or anything of that
sort, just the blackening of the wood. I'm wondering if 100 degress is
simply too HOT to do finishing work? Or is the temperature CHANGE an issue
(i.e. taking the finish from a cool storage area and applying it in a warm
finishing area without acclimation)?

Now I know that all these products are not bad or contaminated. There's
just no way. Some are only a couple weeks old. I've filtered a few just to
make sure nothing was suspended, to no avail. And, just a few weeks back I
got great results with them on test pieces.. Not the BLACK results I'm
suddently seeing.

Does anybody have an answer here? Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Brian.

Well if you are using Black Walnut, some of it does have black streaks.
Will plain water do the same to the same piece of wood? If so, your wood
has that coloring. Most finishes do have a temperature range that they
ideally should be used at but normally that has more to do with getting an
even finish or for proper curing.

It is Peruvian Walnut, and its not a streaking. This is almost an
ebonizing. Let me provide some pics of the test piece that worked and the
new ones that didn't.

Brian.

"Leon" wrote in message
...
Well if you are using Black Walnut, some of it does have black streaks.
Will plain water do the same to the same piece of wood? If so, your wood
has that coloring. Most finishes do have a temperature range that they
ideally should be used at but normally that has more to do with getting an
even finish or for proper curing.

Try the water test on a piece of scrap also.


"Brian" wrote in message
...
It is Peruvian Walnut, and its not a streaking. This is almost an
ebonizing. Let me provide some pics of the test piece that worked and the
new ones that didn't.

Brian.

"Leon" wrote in message
...
Well if you are using Black Walnut, some of it does have black streaks.
Will plain water do the same to the same piece of wood? If so, your
wood
has that coloring. Most finishes do have a temperature range that they
ideally should be used at but normally that has more to do with getting
an
even finish or for proper curing.

Have you tried just thinner (mineral spirits) or naphtha? I have a feeling
they will do the same. Has the wood been exposed to direct sunlight? If not,
is it humid there? I'm thinking trying a bleach wash then rinse, dry and try
again.

I assume the prior samples were from the same board, of course.

I'm in similar weather (southern Utah). I don't see the abrupt temp change
doing anything to the finish. As for 100 deg, you can expect problems with any
finish that normally dries quickly. I do most finishing very early in the day,
where it's in the 70's.

GerryG

On Sun, 8 Aug 2004 18:46:24 -0700, "Brian" wrote:


So, I've been dealing with Walnut recently and how to finish it.... I've
recently moved to where the weather has been very warm; high 90s to 100
degrees F, and probably warmer in the garage. I store all my varnishes,
oils, etc indoors where the temp is a nice 78. Now on to the problem....

I've been having a problem with ANY finish I apply to the Walnut immediately
turns it black. You name it... Waterlox, Arm-R-Seal, Seal-A-Cell, Linseed
Oil, Danish Oil, Tung Oil, Teak Oil, etc. Now, I am applying these finishes
in the warm garage. I have no problem with gumming up or anything of that
sort, just the blackening of the wood. I'm wondering if 100 degress is
simply too HOT to do finishing work? Or is the temperature CHANGE an issue
(i.e. taking the finish from a cool storage area and applying it in a warm
finishing area without acclimation)?

Now I know that all these products are not bad or contaminated. There's
just no way. Some are only a couple weeks old. I've filtered a few just to
make sure nothing was suspended, to no avail. And, just a few weeks back I
got great results with them on test pieces.. Not the BLACK results I'm
suddently seeing.

Does anybody have an answer here? Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Brian.

On Sun, 8 Aug 2004 18:46:24 -0700, "Brian" wrote:


So, I've been dealing with Walnut recently and how to finish it.... I've
recently moved to where the weather has been very warm; high 90s to 100
degrees F, and probably warmer in the garage. I store all my varnishes,
oils, etc indoors where the temp is a nice 78. Now on to the problem....

I've been having a problem with ANY finish I apply to the Walnut immediately
turns it black. You name it... Waterlox, Arm-R-Seal, Seal-A-Cell, Linseed
Oil, Danish Oil, Tung Oil, Teak Oil, etc.

You've brought a cold substance into contact with a warm substance and
created condensation.

Allow the finish to come to the temperature of the material to be
finished and try again.



Regards,
Tom.

Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1

Mineral spirits aren't black.

Brian.

"Leon" wrote in message
...
Try the water test on a piece of scrap also.


"Brian" wrote in message
...
It is Peruvian Walnut, and its not a streaking. This is almost an
ebonizing. Let me provide some pics of the test piece that worked and
the
new ones that didn't.

Brian.

"Leon" wrote in message
...
Well if you are using Black Walnut, some of it does have black
streaks.
Will plain water do the same to the same piece of wood? If so, your
wood
has that coloring. Most finishes do have a temperature range that
they
ideally should be used at but normally that has more to do with
getting
an
even finish or for proper curing.

Mineral spirits look clear. No humidity here. Dry heat. I suspect Tom's
answer is "the" answer.

Brian.


"GerryG" wrote in message
...
Have you tried just thinner (mineral spirits) or naphtha? I have a feeling
they will do the same. Has the wood been exposed to direct sunlight? If
not,
is it humid there? I'm thinking trying a bleach wash then rinse, dry and
try
again.

I assume the prior samples were from the same board, of course.

I'm in similar weather (southern Utah). I don't see the abrupt temp change
doing anything to the finish. As for 100 deg, you can expect problems with
any
finish that normally dries quickly. I do most finishing very early in the
day,
where it's in the 70's.

GerryG

On Sun, 8 Aug 2004 18:46:24 -0700, "Brian" wrote:


So, I've been dealing with Walnut recently and how to finish it.... I've
recently moved to where the weather has been very warm; high 90s to 100
degrees F, and probably warmer in the garage. I store all my varnishes,
oils, etc indoors where the temp is a nice 78. Now on to the problem....

I've been having a problem with ANY finish I apply to the Walnut
immediately
turns it black. You name it... Waterlox, Arm-R-Seal, Seal-A-Cell,
Linseed
Oil, Danish Oil, Tung Oil, Teak Oil, etc. Now, I am applying these
finishes
in the warm garage. I have no problem with gumming up or anything of
that
sort, just the blackening of the wood. I'm wondering if 100 degress is
simply too HOT to do finishing work? Or is the temperature CHANGE an
issue
(i.e. taking the finish from a cool storage area and applying it in a
warm
finishing area without acclimation)?

Now I know that all these products are not bad or contaminated. There's
just no way. Some are only a couple weeks old. I've filtered a few just
to
make sure nothing was suspended, to no avail. And, just a few weeks back
I
got great results with them on test pieces.. Not the BLACK results I'm
suddently seeing.

Does anybody have an answer here? Any input would be greatly
appreciated.

Brian.

Christ is in our midst.

God Bless you and yours Brian,

I live in the North Western part of North Carolina where the Heat and the
Humidity really does a number on Finishes.. I never use Stains and about all
I use to seal the wood is Clear Gloss or Satin Polyurethane and still have
problems with it drying.. Now I must wait till the Humidity is below 65%
before I even consider Sealing anything.

I also wipe everything I do down with Mineral Spirits which gives me a
pretty good idea as to what it is going to look like.. I would not suggest
water because it can soak into your wood and cause major problems after the
Finish has dried, but the Mineral Spirits (Paint Thinner) will evaporate
leaving the woods moisture content as it was when you started and will not
cause problems with the finish.

So.. Forget the water and use the Mineral Spirits to get an idea of the
color the wood is before you apply your seal and wait till the Humidity is
between 60% and 65% before you apply your Wood Seal.

God Bless,
Michael

www.cedar-art.com


"Brian" wrote in message
...

So, I've been dealing with Walnut recently and how to finish it.... I've
recently moved to where the weather has been very warm; high 90s to 100
degrees F, and probably warmer in the garage. I store all my varnishes,
oils, etc indoors where the temp is a nice 78. Now on to the problem....

I've been having a problem with ANY finish I apply to the Walnut
immediately
turns it black. You name it... Waterlox, Arm-R-Seal, Seal-A-Cell,
Linseed
Oil, Danish Oil, Tung Oil, Teak Oil, etc. Now, I am applying these
finishes
in the warm garage. I have no problem with gumming up or anything of that
sort, just the blackening of the wood. I'm wondering if 100 degress is
simply too HOT to do finishing work? Or is the temperature CHANGE an
issue
(i.e. taking the finish from a cool storage area and applying it in a warm
finishing area without acclimation)?

Now I know that all these products are not bad or contaminated. There's
just no way. Some are only a couple weeks old. I've filtered a few just
to
make sure nothing was suspended, to no avail. And, just a few weeks back
I
got great results with them on test pieces.. Not the BLACK results I'm
suddently seeing.

Does anybody have an answer here? Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Brian.

Thanks for the input Mike. I don't have a humidity problem where I am
now... Just a dry heat. I think another poster may have found the problem,
and that is since I store the finishes indoors (cool) and I apply them to a
work piece in the garage (hot) I'm getting condensation and muddying
everything up. I've got a test piece cooling down indoors, and I'll do a
quick application of Danish oil before going to sleep tonight.

Brian.


"Mike Zuchick" wrote in message
r.com...
Christ is in our midst.

God Bless you and yours Brian,

I live in the North Western part of North Carolina where the Heat and the
Humidity really does a number on Finishes.. I never use Stains and about
all
I use to seal the wood is Clear Gloss or Satin Polyurethane and still have
problems with it drying.. Now I must wait till the Humidity is below 65%
before I even consider Sealing anything.

I also wipe everything I do down with Mineral Spirits which gives me a
pretty good idea as to what it is going to look like.. I would not suggest
water because it can soak into your wood and cause major problems after
the
Finish has dried, but the Mineral Spirits (Paint Thinner) will evaporate
leaving the woods moisture content as it was when you started and will not
cause problems with the finish.

So.. Forget the water and use the Mineral Spirits to get an idea of the
color the wood is before you apply your seal and wait till the Humidity is
between 60% and 65% before you apply your Wood Seal.

God Bless,
Michael

www.cedar-art.com


"Brian" wrote in message
...

So, I've been dealing with Walnut recently and how to finish it.... I've
recently moved to where the weather has been very warm; high 90s to 100
degrees F, and probably warmer in the garage. I store all my varnishes,
oils, etc indoors where the temp is a nice 78. Now on to the
problem....

I've been having a problem with ANY finish I apply to the Walnut
immediately
turns it black. You name it... Waterlox, Arm-R-Seal, Seal-A-Cell,
Linseed
Oil, Danish Oil, Tung Oil, Teak Oil, etc. Now, I am applying these
finishes
in the warm garage. I have no problem with gumming up or anything of
that
sort, just the blackening of the wood. I'm wondering if 100 degress is
simply too HOT to do finishing work? Or is the temperature CHANGE an
issue
(i.e. taking the finish from a cool storage area and applying it in a
warm
finishing area without acclimation)?

Now I know that all these products are not bad or contaminated. There's
just no way. Some are only a couple weeks old. I've filtered a few
just
to
make sure nothing was suspended, to no avail. And, just a few weeks
back
I
got great results with them on test pieces.. Not the BLACK results I'm
suddently seeing.

Does anybody have an answer here? Any input would be greatly
appreciated.

Brian.

Please follow up on this one. I can't see a maybe 20deg difference doing that,
not with low humidity. On that note, has anybody ever checked the temp of the
finish coming out of a spray gun? Sorta cool, maybe, but never a problem (but
there's always a first time). In any case, this one sounds interesting. I'm in
about the same temp range. If nothing else turns up, I'll try the same with
some walnut.
GerryG

On Sun, 8 Aug 2004 20:08:57 -0700, "Brian" wrote:

Mineral spirits look clear. No humidity here. Dry heat. I suspect Tom's
answer is "the" answer.

Brian.


"GerryG" wrote in message
.. .
Have you tried just thinner (mineral spirits) or naphtha? I have a feeling
they will do the same. Has the wood been exposed to direct sunlight? If
not,
is it humid there? I'm thinking trying a bleach wash then rinse, dry and
try
again.

I assume the prior samples were from the same board, of course.

I'm in similar weather (southern Utah). I don't see the abrupt temp change
doing anything to the finish. As for 100 deg, you can expect problems with
any
finish that normally dries quickly. I do most finishing very early in the
day,
where it's in the 70's.

GerryG

On Sun, 8 Aug 2004 18:46:24 -0700, "Brian" wrote:


So, I've been dealing with Walnut recently and how to finish it.... I've
recently moved to where the weather has been very warm; high 90s to 100
degrees F, and probably warmer in the garage. I store all my varnishes,
oils, etc indoors where the temp is a nice 78. Now on to the problem....

I've been having a problem with ANY finish I apply to the Walnut
immediately
turns it black. You name it... Waterlox, Arm-R-Seal, Seal-A-Cell,
Linseed
Oil, Danish Oil, Tung Oil, Teak Oil, etc. Now, I am applying these
finishes
in the warm garage. I have no problem with gumming up or anything of
that
sort, just the blackening of the wood. I'm wondering if 100 degress is
simply too HOT to do finishing work? Or is the temperature CHANGE an
issue
(i.e. taking the finish from a cool storage area and applying it in a
warm
finishing area without acclimation)?

Now I know that all these products are not bad or contaminated. There's
just no way. Some are only a couple weeks old. I've filtered a few just
to
make sure nothing was suspended, to no avail. And, just a few weeks back
I
got great results with them on test pieces.. Not the BLACK results I'm
suddently seeing.

Does anybody have an answer here? Any input would be greatly
appreciated.

Brian.

"Mike Zuchick" wrote in message
r.com...
Christ is in our midst.

God Bless you and yours Brian,

I live in the North Western part of North Carolina where the Heat and the
Humidity really does a number on Finishes.. I never use Stains and about
all
I use to seal the wood is Clear Gloss or Satin Polyurethane and still have
problems with it drying.. Now I must wait till the Humidity is below 65%
before I even consider Sealing anything.

I think I would find a better varnish unless you may be exagerating about
having to wait for below 65% humidity. I live in Houston TX where the
humidity is rarely below 80% and I don't have those problems. Granted dry
time tends to be a bit longer but it certainly does not prohibit applying a
varnish of any kind.


I also wipe everything I do down with Mineral Spirits which gives me a
pretty good idea as to what it is going to look like.. I would not suggest
water because it can soak into your wood and cause major problems after
the
Finish has dried, but the Mineral Spirits (Paint Thinner) will evaporate
leaving the woods moisture content as it was when you started and will not
cause problems with the finish.

Water does not have much effect on the finish when used on scraps and does
not have much effect if you are using a water based varnish.

On Sun, 08 Aug 2004 21:46:09 -0600, GerryG
wrote:

|Please follow up on this one. I can't see a maybe 20deg difference doing that,
|not with low humidity. On that note, has anybody ever checked the temp of the
|finish coming out of a spray gun?

If it's a HVLP during the summer in Tucson, it's not cool [g]. I've
pretty much settled on shellac and Enduro WB coatings and these dry
*really* fast when I spray outside (my normal routine). I have at
times put the spray gun in the fridge for a bit before spraying and
haven't seen any problems (so far).

Of course where I live, dust is a major problem, so fast drying has
its advantages. I can't imagine using a finish that takes hours to
dry.

Wes, I also use Enduro products. I just got my first can of
"Flat". To date I've only used Semi-Gloss and Satin. Have
you gotten good clarity by spraying ONLY Satin or Flat? I
typically apply a gloss or semi-gloss product to a project,
and then apply the final sheen as the last coat.
CompliantSpray systems folks swear that it isn't necessary
to apply gloss coats for clarity under Satin or Flat.

The humidity in my shop is usually in the 50-60% range and
when I spray it's usually in the 70's or 80's. I LOVE the
quick drying too! I've had no appreciable problem with dust
on any projects so far and I make only a quick attempt to
reduce dust in the shop before spraying. I even leave the
doors open during and after spraying.

David

Wes Stewart wrote:
On Sun, 08 Aug 2004 21:46:09 -0600, GerryG
wrote:

|Please follow up on this one. I can't see a maybe 20deg difference doing that,
|not with low humidity. On that note, has anybody ever checked the temp of the
|finish coming out of a spray gun?

If it's a HVLP during the summer in Tucson, it's not cool [g]. I've
pretty much settled on shellac and Enduro WB coatings and these dry
*really* fast when I spray outside (my normal routine). I have at
times put the spray gun in the fridge for a bit before spraying and
haven't seen any problems (so far).

Of course where I live, dust is a major problem, so fast drying has
its advantages. I can't imagine using a finish that takes hours to
dry.

On Sun, 08 Aug 2004 21:46:09 -0600, GerryG
wrote:

Please follow up on this one. I can't see a maybe 20deg difference doing that,
not with low humidity. On that note, has anybody ever checked the temp of the
finish coming out of a spray gun? Sorta cool, maybe, but never a problem (but
there's always a first time). In any case, this one sounds interesting. I'm in
about the same temp range. If nothing else turns up, I'll try the same with
some walnut.


I took my clue from his description of the environment as having
ambient air temperatures of up to one hundred and even more in his
garage, where the wood is stored.

Let's say that the air in the garage is 110F.

The relative humidity would only have to be a bit more than 35% for
the 78F material to describe the dew point.

http://www.lamtec.com/dew-point-calculator.htm

This doesn't even take into consideration the microclimate conditions
at the surface of the wood due to the moisture that is contributed by
the wood itself.

http://www.lib.kth.se/Sammanfattning...ilde021218.pdf


As you say, it is interesting.



Regards,
Tom.

Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1

On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 08:41:32 -0700, David wrote:

|Wes, I also use Enduro products. I just got my first can of
|"Flat". To date I've only used Semi-Gloss and Satin. Have
|you gotten good clarity by spraying ONLY Satin or Flat? I
|typically apply a gloss or semi-gloss product to a project,
|and then apply the final sheen as the last coat.
|CompliantSpray systems folks swear that it isn't necessary
|to apply gloss coats for clarity under Satin or Flat.

David,

I'll confess that I'm fairly new to using their products and to date
have stuck with semi-gloss only. I have used multiple coats and to my
(maybe uncritical) eye anyway, the clarity has been good. I haven't
built anything that required a high gloss finish, so the semi suits my
needs. I've been using one or two coats of their sanding sealer and
then multiple coats of semi, sanding or using a gray pad between all
but the last coat.

I'm confessing too some naiveté about alcohol resistance. I thought
that there would be some. Wrong. I used some Gorilla glue in the
carcass of a bath vanity I'm building. I wiped up some squeeze out
with alcohol and there went my finish. Fortunately it was inside the
area where a bank of drawers is going so it won't show.

I'm planning to shoot a final coat with their crosslink additive to
improve this characteristic (I'm not looking forward to this for
reasons stated below).

|
|The humidity in my shop is usually in the 50-60% range and
|when I spray it's usually in the 70's or 80's. I LOVE the
|quick drying too! I've had no appreciable problem with dust
|on any projects so far and I make only a quick attempt to
|reduce dust in the shop before spraying. I even leave the
|doors open during and after spraying.

I've decided to not spray indoors, primarily for health reasons. It
would have been my sister's 54th birthday today, had she not died a
horrible death from lung cancer 21 years ago. I partly attribute this
to her involvement with furniture refinishing and too cavalier use of
the associated chemicals without appropriate precautions. I'm trying
to not make the same mistakes.

Lois at Compliant Systems has urged extreme caution with the
crosslinked product and I intend to pay attention.

Fortunately, the weather here most of the year is such that I can get
away with this. Since I'm not making my living with this stuff, if I
can't finish outside, I can do something else.

Wes

Tom,
Agreed; you may be right. Of course we don't know just where he's at. I'm now
at 95F, but with a relative humidity of 14%, and dew point about 38F. The
black is also curious, as opposed to a white haze that I've seen water cause.
GerryG

On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 12:02:38 -0400, Tom Watson wrote:

On Sun, 08 Aug 2004 21:46:09 -0600, GerryG
wrote:

Please follow up on this one. I can't see a maybe 20deg difference doing that,
not with low humidity. On that note, has anybody ever checked the temp of the
finish coming out of a spray gun? Sorta cool, maybe, but never a problem (but
there's always a first time). In any case, this one sounds interesting. I'm in
about the same temp range. If nothing else turns up, I'll try the same with
some walnut.


I took my clue from his description of the environment as having
ambient air temperatures of up to one hundred and even more in his
garage, where the wood is stored.

Let's say that the air in the garage is 110F.

The relative humidity would only have to be a bit more than 35% for
the 78F material to describe the dew point.

http://www.lamtec.com/dew-point-calculator.htm

This doesn't even take into consideration the microclimate conditions
at the surface of the wood due to the moisture that is contributed by
the wood itself.

http://www.lib.kth.se/Sammanfattning...ilde021218.pdf


As you say, it is interesting.



Regards,
Tom.

Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1

Christ is in our midst.

I think I would find a better varnish unless you may be exagerating about
having to wait for below 65% humidity. I live in Houston TX where the
humidity is rarely below 80% and I don't have those problems. Granted dry
time tends to be a bit longer but it certainly does not prohibit applying
a
varnish of any kind.

The more moisture the has wood absorbed the more likely the Seal you use
will fail.. It may not fail ASAP on a piece of scrap wood, but it will fail.

Failure is caused when the water that is placed on the wood eventually finds
an exit. This will cause the surface of the wood where the water was applied
to shrink whick causes tiny fractures in the Finished Surface and will lead
to a costly re-finishing job..

I am sure you've seen these fractures on a finished surface.. The same will
happen if you use wood with high moisture content. But eventually the finish
will chip or floof off the surface of the wood turning your finish into
dust. This is why I suggest that if you wish to see how the wood will appear
before you add the Finish Sealer, use Mineral Spirits.

Water does not have much effect on the finish when used on scraps and does
not have much effect if you are using a water based varnish.

I've tried the water base Polyurethane once and was not impressed and went
back to the Oil Base Finishs.. They last much longer.

God Bless,
Michael

Wes,

I'm still wondering what's in the Crosslinker. I have used
it and Lois had told me that it isn't as hazardous as some
other catalysts. Did you she give you any idea what's in
the Crosslinker? I've tried to find out more about it and
have come up empty-handed. I DO wear a respirator when
mixing in the Crosslinker or when ever I spray any Enduro
product. I hope this stuff isn't gonna lead to some
dreadful medical problem!

I found that leaving a damp glass on top of Enduro coatings
for many hours will compromise the finish. I haven't made
any tests on Crosslinked finishes yet.

I generally use one coat of sealer, followed by 3 lightly
sanded topcoats. The last project ended up looking too
"plastic" so I cut the finish back with gray, maroon and
white pads. That gave a nice soft luster and got rid of the
dreaded plastic look. I guess I applied too-heavy coats.

What are you spraying with? Forgive me if you've already
mentioned that recently; my memory is the pits!

I use an Accuspray #10 w/ .043 tip and #9 cap for the
Enduro. Just got me a #5, #6, .028 and .036 for finer
control of spraying dye stains and other products. The #5
cap and .028 works GREAT for WB dye stains.

David

Wes Stewart wrote:

On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 08:41:32 -0700, David wrote:

|Wes, I also use Enduro products. I just got my first can of
|"Flat". To date I've only used Semi-Gloss and Satin. Have
|you gotten good clarity by spraying ONLY Satin or Flat? I
|typically apply a gloss or semi-gloss product to a project,
|and then apply the final sheen as the last coat.
|CompliantSpray systems folks swear that it isn't necessary
|to apply gloss coats for clarity under Satin or Flat.

David,

I'll confess that I'm fairly new to using their products and to date
have stuck with semi-gloss only. I have used multiple coats and to my
(maybe uncritical) eye anyway, the clarity has been good. I haven't
built anything that required a high gloss finish, so the semi suits my
needs. I've been using one or two coats of their sanding sealer and
then multiple coats of semi, sanding or using a gray pad between all
but the last coat.

I'm confessing too some naiveté about alcohol resistance. I thought
that there would be some. Wrong. I used some Gorilla glue in the
carcass of a bath vanity I'm building. I wiped up some squeeze out
with alcohol and there went my finish. Fortunately it was inside the
area where a bank of drawers is going so it won't show.

I'm planning to shoot a final coat with their crosslink additive to
improve this characteristic (I'm not looking forward to this for
reasons stated below).

|
|The humidity in my shop is usually in the 50-60% range and
|when I spray it's usually in the 70's or 80's. I LOVE the
|quick drying too! I've had no appreciable problem with dust
|on any projects so far and I make only a quick attempt to
|reduce dust in the shop before spraying. I even leave the
|doors open during and after spraying.

I've decided to not spray indoors, primarily for health reasons. It
would have been my sister's 54th birthday today, had she not died a
horrible death from lung cancer 21 years ago. I partly attribute this
to her involvement with furniture refinishing and too cavalier use of
the associated chemicals without appropriate precautions. I'm trying
to not make the same mistakes.

Lois at Compliant Systems has urged extreme caution with the
crosslinked product and I intend to pay attention.

Fortunately, the weather here most of the year is such that I can get
away with this. Since I'm not making my living with this stuff, if I
can't finish outside, I can do something else.

Wes

IMO your water comments need to be qualified a bit. Nearly all wood has some
water in it, and the amount slowly changes during the year. Finishes slow down
but do not stop the exchange. Look at design aspects that take into account
wood movement. Also include the common technique of spraying with water to
raise the grain before finishing. What you're describing take an awful lot
more water to cause those issues. As you mention, the wood moisture content is
your best guide.
GerryG

On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 18:50:05 GMT, "Mike Zuchick" wrote:


Christ is in our midst.

I think I would find a better varnish unless you may be exagerating about
having to wait for below 65% humidity. I live in Houston TX where the
humidity is rarely below 80% and I don't have those problems. Granted dry
time tends to be a bit longer but it certainly does not prohibit applying
a
varnish of any kind.

The more moisture the has wood absorbed the more likely the Seal you use
will fail.. It may not fail ASAP on a piece of scrap wood, but it will fail.

Failure is caused when the water that is placed on the wood eventually finds
an exit. This will cause the surface of the wood where the water was applied
to shrink whick causes tiny fractures in the Finished Surface and will lead
to a costly re-finishing job..

I am sure you've seen these fractures on a finished surface.. The same will
happen if you use wood with high moisture content. But eventually the finish
will chip or floof off the surface of the wood turning your finish into
dust. This is why I suggest that if you wish to see how the wood will appear
before you add the Finish Sealer, use Mineral Spirits.

Water does not have much effect on the finish when used on scraps and does
not have much effect if you are using a water based varnish.

I've tried the water base Polyurethane once and was not impressed and went
back to the Oil Base Finishs.. They last much longer.

God Bless,
Michael

According to the weather channel, I'm at 33% relative humidity, with a
current temperature of 84F. Due to be 101F today.

Brian.



"GerryG" wrote in message
...
Tom,
Agreed; you may be right. Of course we don't know just where he's at. I'm
now
at 95F, but with a relative humidity of 14%, and dew point about 38F. The
black is also curious, as opposed to a white haze that I've seen water
cause.
GerryG

On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 12:02:38 -0400, Tom Watson wrote:

On Sun, 08 Aug 2004 21:46:09 -0600, GerryG
wrote:

Please follow up on this one. I can't see a maybe 20deg difference doing
that,
not with low humidity. On that note, has anybody ever checked the temp
of the
finish coming out of a spray gun? Sorta cool, maybe, but never a problem
(but
there's always a first time). In any case, this one sounds interesting.
I'm in
about the same temp range. If nothing else turns up, I'll try the same
with
some walnut.


I took my clue from his description of the environment as having
ambient air temperatures of up to one hundred and even more in his
garage, where the wood is stored.

Let's say that the air in the garage is 110F.

The relative humidity would only have to be a bit more than 35% for
the 78F material to describe the dew point.

http://www.lamtec.com/dew-point-calculator.htm

This doesn't even take into consideration the microclimate conditions
at the surface of the wood due to the moisture that is contributed by
the wood itself.

http://www.lib.kth.se/Sammanfattning...ilde021218.pdf


As you say, it is interesting.



Regards,
Tom.

Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1

Christ is in our Midst!

God Bless Gerry,

The next time you spray water to make the grain raise, do not spray the ends
of the wood.. Only spray the surface and look at the ends how deep the water
has penetrated the wood.. I've seen ARC absorb a light spray of water on the
surface of a piece as much as a 1/4" and that was only what I could see..
I've seen Black Walnut and Red Oak absorb a light spray of water as much as
1/8" to a 1/4" into the wood.. The more porous the wood the deeper you can
see a fine mist go into the wood. And if you can see where the moisture has
gone 1/4" into the wood, you can add another 1/16" to an 1/8" to the most
porous places on the surface you just sprayed that you can not see.. Now
after you wipe the water from the surface of the piece and apply your
varnish, that water is trapped under the surface of the wood and when it
finds a place in your finish to evaporate, and it will, the wood will shrink
under the finish causing what I call "Microcracks" to form in the finish
which will allow the wood to breath better and absorb the moisture it lost..
The process of evaporating, microcracking will continue until the
microcracks will weaken the bond between the varnish and the fibers of the
wood allowing the varnish to chip or fluff off until you have a re-finishing
job and a PO'ed customer wanting you to refinish the piece.. I have seen
this MicroCracking occur on pieces within 2 years. Which is why I always use
Paint Thinner (Mineral Spirits) to raise the grain of a piece I am getting
ready to finish.. The added oils in the mineral spirits tends to help the
finish by resisting humidity and curves the need for raising the grain with
water that is absorbed by the wood..

Please forgive me, sometimes I will comment on something assuming it is a
well known concept and feel no need to go into great detail.. I will try and
mend my ways on future comments.

God Bless,
Michael

www.cedar-art.com


"GerryG" wrote in message
...
IMO your water comments need to be qualified a bit. Nearly all wood has
some
water in it, and the amount slowly changes during the year. Finishes slow
down
but do not stop the exchange. Look at design aspects that take into
account
wood movement. Also include the common technique of spraying with water to
raise the grain before finishing. What you're describing take an awful lot
more water to cause those issues. As you mention, the wood moisture
content is
your best guide.
GerryG

On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 18:50:05 GMT, "Mike Zuchick"
wrote:


Christ is in our midst.

I think I would find a better varnish unless you may be exagerating
about
having to wait for below 65% humidity. I live in Houston TX where the
humidity is rarely below 80% and I don't have those problems. Granted
dry
time tends to be a bit longer but it certainly does not prohibit
applying
a
varnish of any kind.

The more moisture the has wood absorbed the more likely the Seal you use
will fail.. It may not fail ASAP on a piece of scrap wood, but it will
fail.

Failure is caused when the water that is placed on the wood eventually
finds
an exit. This will cause the surface of the wood where the water was
applied
to shrink whick causes tiny fractures in the Finished Surface and will
lead
to a costly re-finishing job..

I am sure you've seen these fractures on a finished surface.. The same
will
happen if you use wood with high moisture content. But eventually the
finish
will chip or floof off the surface of the wood turning your finish into
dust. This is why I suggest that if you wish to see how the wood will
appear
before you add the Finish Sealer, use Mineral Spirits.

Water does not have much effect on the finish when used on scraps and
does
not have much effect if you are using a water based varnish.

I've tried the water base Polyurethane once and was not impressed and
went
back to the Oil Base Finishs.. They last much longer.

God Bless,
Michael

On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 11:56:25 -0700, David wrote:

David,

|
|I'm still wondering what's in the Crosslinker. I have used
|it and Lois had told me that it isn't as hazardous as some
|other catalysts. Did you she give you any idea what's in
|the Crosslinker?

Haven't a clue. If I was still employed I could take a sample to one
of my chemist friends and find out.


|I've tried to find out more about it and
|have come up empty-handed. I DO wear a respirator when
|mixing in the Crosslinker or when ever I spray any Enduro
|product. I hope this stuff isn't gonna lead to some
|dreadful medical problem!

Maybe I got the wrong impression about the hazard level, but she made
it very clear that I should wear an active carbon filter mask (I
always do) and wear gloves (do that too). She even included the
gloves, so I take it that it's important to wear them. Better safe
than sorry. But if we're not breathing it in, not getting it in the
eyes and not absorbing it through the skin, I think we're okay.

|
|I found that leaving a damp glass on top of Enduro coatings
|for many hours will compromise the finish. I haven't made
|any tests on Crosslinked finishes yet.

Well hurry up and report back here. [g]

|
|I generally use one coat of sealer, followed by 3 lightly
|sanded topcoats. The last project ended up looking too
|"plastic" so I cut the finish back with gray, maroon and
|white pads. That gave a nice soft luster and got rid of the
|dreaded plastic look. I guess I applied too-heavy coats.

Could be. I often use their conditioner (tempted to try distilled
water) to get better flow with lighter coats.
|
|What are you spraying with? Forgive me if you've already
|mentioned that recently; my memory is the pits!

I'm using a Wagner 2600 "Softspray" HVLP rated at 6psi @70 cfm and a
non-bleeder gun. I based this choice on the article in FWW, since I
was without much experience in this area. This gun comes with a 1.3mm
(0.05") tip and until very recently I couldn't locate a source for
different sizes. I now know that gleempaint has them but I have yet
to buy a smaller one. I seem to be able to fiddlefart around and get
decent spray characteristics, although I think I'm probably wasting
some material. (Another reason to be outside)

Some question the use of aluminum parts with water but I haven't seen
it as an issue.

Wes

Michael,
I think we'll have to just disagree on the degree here. Jewitt and other
finishers don't seem concerned, and I haven't seen an issue from this in
several decades of working with wood.

Now, you spoke about "added oils" in mineral spirits? Do you mean if I let
some dry on a piece of clean glass, I'll then see an oil residue? I don't
think so...
GerryG

On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 21:13:45 GMT, "Mike Zuchick" wrote:

Christ is in our Midst!

God Bless Gerry,

The next time you spray water to make the grain raise, do not spray the ends
of the wood.. Only spray the surface and look at the ends how deep the water
has penetrated the wood.. I've seen ARC absorb a light spray of water on the
surface of a piece as much as a 1/4" and that was only what I could see..
I've seen Black Walnut and Red Oak absorb a light spray of water as much as
1/8" to a 1/4" into the wood.. The more porous the wood the deeper you can
see a fine mist go into the wood. And if you can see where the moisture has
gone 1/4" into the wood, you can add another 1/16" to an 1/8" to the most
porous places on the surface you just sprayed that you can not see.. Now
after you wipe the water from the surface of the piece and apply your
varnish, that water is trapped under the surface of the wood and when it
finds a place in your finish to evaporate, and it will, the wood will shrink
under the finish causing what I call "Microcracks" to form in the finish
which will allow the wood to breath better and absorb the moisture it lost..
The process of evaporating, microcracking will continue until the
microcracks will weaken the bond between the varnish and the fibers of the
wood allowing the varnish to chip or fluff off until you have a re-finishing
job and a PO'ed customer wanting you to refinish the piece.. I have seen
this MicroCracking occur on pieces within 2 years. Which is why I always use
Paint Thinner (Mineral Spirits) to raise the grain of a piece I am getting
ready to finish.. The added oils in the mineral spirits tends to help the
finish by resisting humidity and curves the need for raising the grain with
water that is absorbed by the wood..

Please forgive me, sometimes I will comment on something assuming it is a
well known concept and feel no need to go into great detail.. I will try and
mend my ways on future comments.

God Bless,
Michael

www.cedar-art.com


"GerryG" wrote in message
.. .
IMO your water comments need to be qualified a bit. Nearly all wood has
some
water in it, and the amount slowly changes during the year. Finishes slow
down
but do not stop the exchange. Look at design aspects that take into
account
wood movement. Also include the common technique of spraying with water to
raise the grain before finishing. What you're describing take an awful lot
more water to cause those issues. As you mention, the wood moisture
content is
your best guide.
GerryG

On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 18:50:05 GMT, "Mike Zuchick"
wrote:


Christ is in our midst.

I think I would find a better varnish unless you may be exagerating
about
having to wait for below 65% humidity. I live in Houston TX where the
humidity is rarely below 80% and I don't have those problems. Granted
dry
time tends to be a bit longer but it certainly does not prohibit
applying
a
varnish of any kind.

The more moisture the has wood absorbed the more likely the Seal you use
will fail.. It may not fail ASAP on a piece of scrap wood, but it will
fail.

Failure is caused when the water that is placed on the wood eventually
finds
an exit. This will cause the surface of the wood where the water was
applied
to shrink whick causes tiny fractures in the Finished Surface and will
lead
to a costly re-finishing job..

I am sure you've seen these fractures on a finished surface.. The same
will
happen if you use wood with high moisture content. But eventually the
finish
will chip or floof off the surface of the wood turning your finish into
dust. This is why I suggest that if you wish to see how the wood will
appear
before you add the Finish Sealer, use Mineral Spirits.

Water does not have much effect on the finish when used on scraps and
does
not have much effect if you are using a water based varnish.

I've tried the water base Polyurethane once and was not impressed and
went
back to the Oil Base Finishs.. They last much longer.

God Bless,
Michael

Mineral Spirits or as sold by EXXON as VARSOL is an oil base product and
definitely will leave an oil residue as will most oil base paint thinners.
Laquor thinner, MEK, and others will leave a powdery ash which is less
desirable.

LLL

Say what you will but I have several pieces of furniture that proves your
thoughts wrong.

Christ is in our Midst!

God Bless Leon,

Say what you will but I have several pieces of furniture that proves your
thoughts wrong.

As you wish.. It is not an important issue to me.. I know what I have
experience with my own eyes..

God Bless,
Michael

Brian wrote:

It is Peruvian Walnut, and its not a streaking. This is almost an
ebonizing. Let me provide some pics of the test piece that worked and the
new ones that didn't.

Brian.

Peruvian Walnut is much darker than American Black Walnut. An oil based finish
will further darken it. I don't think the temperature or humidity have anything
to do with the coloration. As Larry suggested try shellac or lacquer.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
(Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)

From all the bits and pieces I've heard, this sounds like the best (and
simplest) explanation. I don't think he replied when I asked if the test
pieces were actually from the same board.
GerryG
On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 22:10:21 -0400, Nova wrote:

Brian wrote:

It is Peruvian Walnut, and its not a streaking. This is almost an
ebonizing. Let me provide some pics of the test piece that worked and the
new ones that didn't.

Brian.

Peruvian Walnut is much darker than American Black Walnut. An oil based finish
will further darken it. I don't think the temperature or humidity have anything
to do with the coloration. As Larry suggested try shellac or lacquer.

Christ is in our Midst!

Look Leon, you said your were having a problem with your finish I assumed
you were asking for advice.. I gave you advice based on my experience and
instead of thanking me for my efforts or simply not heeding the advice and
letting it go at that you have created an entire thread and seem to be more
interested discounting the information I have given you which I have learned
over the years via experience.. I thought I left the ingrates in REC, but
apparently a couple went over the fence. So here are two last bits of advice
I will give you.. This ain't REC.. If you want to argue, go there and argue
all you want.. I left REC for this very reason and came here.. And the last
bit of advice, don't hold your breath until you get anymore help from me!
Just got no time for arguing over things I know to be true.. Got no need to
convince you of anything. After all you're a big boy, figure it out
yourself.


"Leon" wrote in message
...
Say what you will but I have several pieces of furniture that proves your
thoughts wrong.

Lest we forget, the first rule states:
No single rule will always apply.

Many people have seen different problems and issues, and some have solutions,
but may not realize that both the problems and solutions are often dependent
on a bunch of detail that may not be obvious. That unless you can repeat them
under many other conditions, you do not have a general rule. Add to this the
"...in the eye of the beholder", and arguments often end up with more
personalities than facts.

Michael, I don't doubt what you've seen, but suggest there are other factors
involved and this is not an often seen issue.
GerryG

On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 01:34:21 GMT, "Mike Zuchick" wrote:

Christ is in our Midst!

God Bless Leon,

Say what you will but I have several pieces of furniture that proves your
thoughts wrong.

As you wish.. It is not an important issue to me.. I know what I have
experience with my own eyes..

God Bless,
Michael

Christ is in our Midst!

Gerry, I couldn't agree more.. But from here on out when someone asks for
help, I will be very leery about giving them my opinion.

God Bless,
Mike


"GerryG" wrote in message
...
Lest we forget, the first rule states:
No single rule will always apply.

Many people have seen different problems and issues, and some have
solutions,
but may not realize that both the problems and solutions are often
dependent
on a bunch of detail that may not be obvious. That unless you can repeat
them
under many other conditions, you do not have a general rule. Add to this
the
"...in the eye of the beholder", and arguments often end up with more
personalities than facts.

Michael, I don't doubt what you've seen, but suggest there are other
factors
involved and this is not an often seen issue.
GerryG

On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 01:34:21 GMT, "Mike Zuchick"
wrote:

Christ is in our Midst!

God Bless Leon,

Say what you will but I have several pieces of furniture that proves
your
thoughts wrong.

As you wish.. It is not an important issue to me.. I know what I have
experience with my own eyes..

God Bless,
Michael