I need to tone a pair of doors. If possible, I would like to match them to another set that will be nearby.

The first set was done with the following schedule.

1. Spray a coat of shellac so the grain will not bleed through.
2. Spray water based dye until I go the color I wanted.
3. Spray a few coats of hydrocote lacquer. (Note, I did not mix
the dye and Hydrocote to make a toner.)
4. Do the usual rub out to get a nice gloss finish.
5. Smile when the praises come my way!

The second set of (very expensive) doors is a harder wood.

1. I sprayed a coat of shellac keep the grain from becoming a
strong feature.
2. I mixed the water based dye with Hydrocote to form a toner.
3. I got a very poor finish that looked like large fisheyes.
4. I stripped the door by applying lacquer thinner in a cloth
over the surface to soften it. Then I used a card scraper to
take the lacquer off.
5. A bit of light sanding and I am back to the original door.


1. I think the problem was that the water based dye thinned the
Hydrocote (Before mixing in the dye it took 38 seconds to empty
the cup) was just too much water.

2. I just tried making a new "batch". The Hydrocote is straight out
of the 5 gallon jug. I put in a little dye.

3. The mix is almost instantly watery. It now takes about 20
seconds to empty the lacquer measuring cup that is filled with
the toner.



Is the problem that I should be putting only a little bit of dye
in the Hydrocote. Will it ever get enough color that way?

Len

On Saturday, May 26, 2018 at 9:01:32 PM UTC-4, Len wrote:
I need to tone a pair of doors. If possible, I would like to match them to another set that will be nearby.

The first set was done with the following schedule.

1. Spray a coat of shellac so the grain will not bleed through.
2. Spray water based dye until I go the color I wanted.
3. Spray a few coats of hydrocote lacquer. (Note, I did not mix
the dye and Hydrocote to make a toner.)
4. Do the usual rub out to get a nice gloss finish.
5. Smile when the praises come my way!

The second set of (very expensive) doors is a harder wood.

1. I sprayed a coat of shellac keep the grain from becoming a
strong feature.
2. I mixed the water based dye with Hydrocote to form a toner.
3. I got a very poor finish that looked like large fisheyes.
4. I stripped the door by applying lacquer thinner in a cloth
over the surface to soften it. Then I used a card scraper to
take the lacquer off.
5. A bit of light sanding and I am back to the original door.


1. I think the problem was that the water based dye thinned the
Hydrocote (Before mixing in the dye it took 38 seconds to empty
the cup) was just too much water.

2. I just tried making a new "batch". The Hydrocote is straight out
of the 5 gallon jug. I put in a little dye.

3. The mix is almost instantly watery. It now takes about 20
seconds to empty the lacquer measuring cup that is filled with
the toner.



Is the problem that I should be putting only a little bit of dye
in the Hydrocote. Will it ever get enough color that way?

Len

Hi Len . Have You Ever used Behlen Solar Lux NGR Dye stains ?
Google it.
There are a few distributors out there if You are in California there may be restrictions.

https://www.shellac.net/SolarLuxDye.html

They are some of the best out there. They are not cheap and You may have to invest some time and $ to get the colors You want.
All will not be wasted because clearly these are great stains to have around after Your project is done.
What I would try is remove all the finish including most if the shellac sealer with alcohol. You can use 90 % Isopropyl from the Family Dollar store or Heet Isopropyl fuel de-icer from your auto parts store.
What Shellac is left in the pores of the sub surface will be .O.K. to leave in.
I have used this product over sanded shellac, varnish and laquer.
With good results that you could never achieve with oil/solvent based stains.
Then light sand. 220 grit use a tack rag and remove sanding residue.
You may have to mix stains to achieve Your desired color and thin with
Solar Lux reducer to lighten if its too dark.
Try these on less conspicuous places on Your project , and remove Your mistakes to a degree with the Solar lux reducer or alcohol.
When You have succeeded in finding desired color then You can proceed with staining.
I prefer rag , to brush or spray. Then after I hour You can apply your topcoat.
I have never been in favor of tinting topcoats. They scratch easily and reveal the substrate color of the wood.
When You stain wood and finish over it your grains are more vibrant and colorful and it will survive most wear and scratches and may easily be re- coated for repair and upkeep.
I hope this may help You Good luck With Your Project.
Rick B.

On Sunday, 27 May 2018 02:01:32 UTC+1, Len wrote:
I need to tone a pair of doors. If possible, I would like to match them to another set that will be nearby.

The first set was done with the following schedule.

1. Spray a coat of shellac so the grain will not bleed through.
2. Spray water based dye until I go the color I wanted.
3. Spray a few coats of hydrocote lacquer. (Note, I did not mix
the dye and Hydrocote to make a toner.)
4. Do the usual rub out to get a nice gloss finish.
5. Smile when the praises come my way!

The second set of (very expensive) doors is a harder wood.

1. I sprayed a coat of shellac keep the grain from becoming a
strong feature.
2. I mixed the water based dye with Hydrocote to form a toner.
3. I got a very poor finish that looked like large fisheyes.
4. I stripped the door by applying lacquer thinner in a cloth
over the surface to soften it. Then I used a card scraper to
take the lacquer off.
5. A bit of light sanding and I am back to the original door.


1. I think the problem was that the water based dye thinned the
Hydrocote (Before mixing in the dye it took 38 seconds to empty
the cup) was just too much water.

2. I just tried making a new "batch". The Hydrocote is straight out
of the 5 gallon jug. I put in a little dye.

3. The mix is almost instantly watery. It now takes about 20
seconds to empty the lacquer measuring cup that is filled with
the toner.



Is the problem that I should be putting only a little bit of dye
in the Hydrocote. Will it ever get enough color that way?

Len

So you take your wood and prepare the surface. You then seal the suface with shellac. You then apply a water-based dye! What gives the idea that a water-based dye will will adhere to a shellaced suface? Why don't you apply the dye to the wood, using a water-wash to avoid grain telegraphing, and THEN apply the shellac sealer, which is suitable under any finish.

On Tuesday, May 29, 2018 at 5:25:37 PM UTC-4, Limey Lurker wrote:
On Sunday, 27 May 2018 02:01:32 UTC+1, Len wrote:
I need to tone a pair of doors. If possible, I would like to match them to another set that will be nearby.

The first set was done with the following schedule.

1. Spray a coat of shellac so the grain will not bleed through.
2. Spray water based dye until I go the color I wanted.
3. Spray a few coats of hydrocote lacquer. (Note, I did not mix
the dye and Hydrocote to make a toner.)
4. Do the usual rub out to get a nice gloss finish.
5. Smile when the praises come my way!

The second set of (very expensive) doors is a harder wood.

1. I sprayed a coat of shellac keep the grain from becoming a
strong feature.
2. I mixed the water based dye with Hydrocote to form a toner.
3. I got a very poor finish that looked like large fisheyes.
4. I stripped the door by applying lacquer thinner in a cloth
over the surface to soften it. Then I used a card scraper to
take the lacquer off.
5. A bit of light sanding and I am back to the original door.


1. I think the problem was that the water based dye thinned the
Hydrocote (Before mixing in the dye it took 38 seconds to empty
the cup) was just too much water.

2. I just tried making a new "batch". The Hydrocote is straight out
of the 5 gallon jug. I put in a little dye.

3. The mix is almost instantly watery. It now takes about 20
seconds to empty the lacquer measuring cup that is filled with
the toner.



Is the problem that I should be putting only a little bit of dye
in the Hydrocote. Will it ever get enough color that way?

Len

So you take your wood and prepare the surface. You then seal the suface with shellac. You then apply a water-based dye! What gives the idea that a water-based dye will will adhere to a shellaced suface? Why don't you apply the dye to the wood, using a water-wash to avoid grain telegraphing, and THEN apply the shellac sealer, which is suitable under any finish.

First off I always would recommend Staining raw wood as a protocall.
I was refering to Len's specific problem, since He already sealed with Shellac, then removed the colored topcoat.
I tried to say that You should remove most of the shellac and light sand but it's not neccesary to deep strip it from the wood's pores.
However this Behlen stuff is pretty amazing how it bonds to a sanded finish and remains even.
Although I have not ever sprayed it or brushed it.
I merely scrub it in with a rag to an even tone , let it dry and topcoat.
You may even seal it with a thin spray flash coat of shellac, before topcoat.

I think some of you are missing the point. I put shellac on first so that the strong grain would be muted when I sprayed the colored TONER over the shellac. Multiple coats of toner can be used to get the color intensity I want. At the same time, the grain is very subdued because the dye does not get into the grain of the wood. The added clear top coats of the toner coats protect the colored coats and are rubbed out for a nice smooth finish.