Not exactly woodworking, but ...

Two custom-built wooden exterior doors have developed cracks in the
paint, mostly where the original pieces of wood were joined. The paint
has flaked off to bare wood in those areas, leaving maybe 1" exposed,
but the rest of the paint is in reasonable shape.

We're having a guy come paint the door (this is a commercial building,
not my house), but he's a handyman at best (I didn't pick the workman).
We'll have to guide him.

After scraping away the cracked paint, what can we do to smooth the
edges that are left, and prep the door for (primer and) paint? Do we
sand down the edges? Or "putty up" the low spots? Hand sanding? Sander?
Grinder with flap disk? Something else?

On 5/16/2016 9:29 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
Not exactly woodworking, but ...

Two custom-built wooden exterior doors have developed cracks in the
paint, mostly where the original pieces of wood were joined. The paint
has flaked off to bare wood in those areas, leaving maybe 1" exposed,
but the rest of the paint is in reasonable shape.

We're having a guy come paint the door (this is a commercial building,
not my house), but he's a handyman at best (I didn't pick the workman).
We'll have to guide him.

After scraping away the cracked paint, what can we do to smooth the
edges that are left, and prep the door for (primer and) paint? Do we
sand down the edges? Or "putty up" the low spots? Hand sanding? Sander?
Grinder with flap disk? Something else?

Bondo wood filler, applied, sanded and painted, is usually what my
painters use to repair those type areas in doors.

Robert might have some other tricks up his sleeve, so hope he'll chime in.

YMMV ...

--
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http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

Swingman wrote in :

On 5/16/2016 9:29 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
Not exactly woodworking, but ...

Two custom-built wooden exterior doors have developed cracks in the
paint, mostly where the original pieces of wood were joined. The paint
has flaked off to bare wood in those areas, leaving maybe 1" exposed,
but the rest of the paint is in reasonable shape.

We're having a guy come paint the door (this is a commercial building,
not my house), but he's a handyman at best (I didn't pick the workman).
We'll have to guide him.

After scraping away the cracked paint, what can we do to smooth the
edges that are left, and prep the door for (primer and) paint? Do we
sand down the edges? Or "putty up" the low spots? Hand sanding? Sander?
Grinder with flap disk? Something else?

Bondo wood filler, applied, sanded and painted, is usually what my
painters use to repair those type areas in doors.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM58R79VL98
[note to self; never ever trust any of this clowns repair advice]

Mr. 2 Cents wrote:
Swingman wrote in
:



Bondo wood filler, applied, sanded and painted, is usually what my
painters use to repair those type areas in doors.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM58R79VL98
[note to self; never ever trust any of this clowns repair advice]


Hear that Karl? Apparently you're a clown...

--
-Mike-

On Monday, May 16, 2016 at 2:15:34 PM UTC-4, Mike Marlow wrote:
Mr. 2 Cents wrote:
Swingman wrote in
:



Bondo wood filler, applied, sanded and painted, is usually what my
painters use to repair those type areas in doors.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM58R79VL98
[note to self; never ever trust any of this clowns repair advice]


Hear that Karl? Apparently you're a clown...


Nah, it's Mr. Non-Cents that's the clown.

His video response is an apples-to-crocodiles comparison.

On Mon, 16 May 2016 11:33:25 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Monday, May 16, 2016 at 2:15:34 PM UTC-4, Mike Marlow wrote:
Mr. 2 Cents wrote:
Swingman wrote in
:



Bondo wood filler, applied, sanded and painted, is usually what my
painters use to repair those type areas in doors.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM58R79VL98
[note to self; never ever trust any of this clowns repair advice]


Hear that Karl? Apparently you're a clown...


Nah, it's Mr. Non-Cents that's the clown.

His video response is an apples-to-crocodiles comparison.
Be MUCH better to prime the bare wood and sand the solid paint down
to match the level of the primer, then repaint to match. Polyester
filler is not designed for use on wood.

On 5/16/2016 12:43 PM, Mr. 2 Cents wrote:
Swingman wrote in
:

On 5/16/2016 9:29 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
Not exactly woodworking, but ...

Two custom-built wooden exterior doors have developed cracks in the
paint, mostly where the original pieces of wood were joined. The paint
has flaked off to bare wood in those areas, leaving maybe 1" exposed,
but the rest of the paint is in reasonable shape.

We're having a guy come paint the door (this is a commercial building,
not my house), but he's a handyman at best (I didn't pick the workman).
We'll have to guide him.

After scraping away the cracked paint, what can we do to smooth the
edges that are left, and prep the door for (primer and) paint? Do we
sand down the edges? Or "putty up" the low spots? Hand sanding? Sander?
Grinder with flap disk? Something else?

Bondo wood filler, applied, sanded and painted, is usually what my
painters use to repair those type areas in doors.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM58R79VL98
[note to self; never ever trust any of this clowns repair advice]

Even though Bondo wood repair did not last long, it did last longer that
what you suggested.

On Mon, 16 May 2016 14:40:24 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 5/16/2016 12:43 PM, Mr. 2 Cents wrote:
Swingman wrote in
:

On 5/16/2016 9:29 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
Not exactly woodworking, but ...

Two custom-built wooden exterior doors have developed cracks in the
paint, mostly where the original pieces of wood were joined. The paint
has flaked off to bare wood in those areas, leaving maybe 1" exposed,
but the rest of the paint is in reasonable shape.

We're having a guy come paint the door (this is a commercial building,
not my house), but he's a handyman at best (I didn't pick the workman).
We'll have to guide him.

After scraping away the cracked paint, what can we do to smooth the
edges that are left, and prep the door for (primer and) paint? Do we
sand down the edges? Or "putty up" the low spots? Hand sanding? Sander?
Grinder with flap disk? Something else?

Bondo wood filler, applied, sanded and painted, is usually what my
painters use to repair those type areas in doors.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM58R79VL98
[note to self; never ever trust any of this clowns repair advice]

Even though Bondo wood repair did not last long, it did last longer that
what you suggested.

The poster and video people were shills for "Better to use Abatron."

In article ,
says...

On Mon, 16 May 2016 14:40:24 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 5/16/2016 12:43 PM, Mr. 2 Cents wrote:
Swingman wrote in
:

On 5/16/2016 9:29 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
Not exactly woodworking, but ...

Two custom-built wooden exterior doors have developed cracks in the
paint, mostly where the original pieces of wood were joined. The paint
has flaked off to bare wood in those areas, leaving maybe 1" exposed,
but the rest of the paint is in reasonable shape.

We're having a guy come paint the door (this is a commercial building,
not my house), but he's a handyman at best (I didn't pick the workman).
We'll have to guide him.

After scraping away the cracked paint, what can we do to smooth the
edges that are left, and prep the door for (primer and) paint? Do we
sand down the edges? Or "putty up" the low spots? Hand sanding? Sander?
Grinder with flap disk? Something else?

Bondo wood filler, applied, sanded and painted, is usually what my
painters use to repair those type areas in doors.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM58R79VL98
[note to self; never ever trust any of this clowns repair advice]

Even though Bondo wood repair did not last long, it did last longer that
what you suggested.

The poster and video people were shills for "Better to use Abatron."

And if you look at their bad example of Bondo, it's pretty clear that
it's really a bad example of surface prep.

On Monday, May 16, 2016 at 12:43:17 PM UTC-5, Mr. 2 Cents wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM58R79VL98
[note to self; never ever trust any of this clowns repair advice]

Moron.

I wouldn't want to guess just how stupid you could be as that well probably has no bottom. But how you could compare filling a few cracks and low spots to someone that attempted to literally replace entire rotted areas and rebuild rotted boards is beyond me.

So you found a video by some other nitwit (no doubt of your same intellectual caliber) that had no idea what he was looking at and decided to compare it to a dissimilar situation. The Bondo was not only the wrong stuff, but it had no reinforcement nor was it anchored properly.

Idiot.

Anyway... Greg when I try to read the whole post and match the repair to the capability of the repair guy. You have a some good thoughts, so this is only my personal way of handling the repairs you are talking about.

Sand the whole door to make sure there is no other loose paint, no scale, no damage you didn't see (if it cracks where you are describing, there is movement in the joints so what you see won't be all of it until you have finished the prep)and determine if there needs to be actual repair work instead of just fill and paint.

The danger of putting new paint over old paint is that the paint holds well enough to hang onto the surface, but the new paint can loosen the previous coats, even if it is oil based.

That's why I power wash the exterior surfaces, then prep. If the paint is going to come off it will come off when sprayed. Then sand. Then examine the damage.

So for an exterior wood door (I am keeping in mind that you are talking about an handyman doing these repairs) I wash and sand, and if there are repairs needed I do them at that time. If the rails and stiles have separated, then I scrape out the rotten or soft wood on the joints, fill them with wood glue (I usually open them a bit more) and clamp. Then I use an 7" gutter screw (or something similar from Fastenal) driven at a 45 degree angle from the stile into the rail. Try to find a screw that is threaded the entire length if you can. These aren't, but work fine.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_122295-205-3...d=3284360&Ntt=

If I find the screws with a head less than 1/2" diameter, I use a washer, too. Counter sink the head of the screw, and fill with acrylic caulk after the screw is in place. Do both sides and as well as the top and bottom of the door. I like gutter screws because they come with some kind of epoxy based powder coat on them so they won't rust over the long haul.

Now the door is more stabilized. BTW, most doors fail because of wood movement, and that is usually caused by the painters not painting the door top and bottom. They wick water and start to fail immediately due to the absorption of water causing swelling/movement.

Rock Hard is great for filling holes, some deep scratches, leveling out a surface, etc. It is not good for small cracks as it needs to have more mass to hold together than you can get with a small crack. I usually do a two step process on a door that I am picturing as you described.

Fill all the holes and dents with Rock Hard. I use an 1/8" to 1/4" bit to drill into the center of the dents and holes to give the Rock Hard better bite. With a bunch of holes in a damaged area, you can lay that stuff on pretty thick and sand it smooth. Be aware that Rock Hard has almost not weather resistance; if you start the job using that product plan on working it to finish. You can also get it pretty thin too, (think feathered edges) as long as you paint as soon as possible.

For cracks along the joints I use a good acrylic caulk. For cracks in faces, if they are fine cracks I use the same thing. I apply it as close as possible with a tool, then smooth it a bit with a wet paper towel.

I use caulk because it penetrates the rough surface of the joints and seals them against further deterioration. As noted above, most likely these cracks will come back, but if the raw edges are sealed up with caulk it will slow down the process quite a bit. I use caulk on the joinery because doors always flex at the joints. Maybe not a lot, but always, and with all that I have repaired that is almost always "the scene of the crime". Rock Hard will break apart after a while due to this flexing and it offers no protection to the surface it is attached to. It isn't made to do that; it is a filler.

Prime and paint!

Now... if the handyman of choice can't do that, skip the repairs, and apply Rock Hard and caulk, then paint.

Robert

wrote in :

Now... if the handyman of choice can't do that, skip the repairs, and apply Rock
Hard and caulk, then paint.

Nice essay, Dink. Be sure and thank Karla for giving you the opportunity to flap
your tiny knowledge-penis in front of the class. Last I saw she was hiding under
Leon's skirt. (BSEG)

On 5/16/2016 10:35 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 5/16/2016 9:29 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
Not exactly woodworking, but ...

Two custom-built wooden exterior doors have developed cracks in the
paint, mostly where the original pieces of wood were joined. The paint
has flaked off to bare wood in those areas, leaving maybe 1" exposed,
but the rest of the paint is in reasonable shape.

We're having a guy come paint the door (this is a commercial building,
not my house), but he's a handyman at best (I didn't pick the workman).
We'll have to guide him.

After scraping away the cracked paint, what can we do to smooth the
edges that are left, and prep the door for (primer and) paint? Do we
sand down the edges? Or "putty up" the low spots? Hand sanding? Sander?
Grinder with flap disk? Something else?

Bondo wood filler, applied, sanded and painted, is usually what my
painters use to repair those type areas in doors.

Robert might have some other tricks up his sleeve, so hope he'll chime in.

YMMV ...


Rock Hard makes a great wood filler that can be painted.

On 5/16/2016 2:34 PM, Leon wrote:

Rock Hard makes a great wood filler that can be painted.

Yep, that's a good one, and there are quite a few other different
products, but I use the various bondo products for a good reason:

When you do it for a living like we do, instead of linking to videos on
the internet like ol mr tuppence up there, I like the fact that it would
be a rare day that you couldn't grab a can Bondo products at the closest
Lowe's or Home Depot when you need it ...

_right now_ ... not easy to do that with most other products.

On that note, it ain't like I don't know how to ****ing restore doors:

Besides the new wood added, Bondo was used to fill all the old holes and
dings:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...?noredirect=1#

Now, mr tuppence, show us your's ...

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
https://www.facebook.com/eWoodShop-206166666122228
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On Mon, 16 May 2016 15:31:22 -0500, Swingman wrote:

On 5/16/2016 2:34 PM, Leon wrote:

Rock Hard makes a great wood filler that can be painted.

Yep, that's a good one, and there are quite a few other different
products, but I use the various bondo products for a good reason:

When you do it for a living like we do, instead of linking to videos on
the internet like ol mr tuppence up there, I like the fact that it would
be a rare day that you couldn't grab a can Bondo products at the closest
Lowe's or Home Depot when you need it ...

_right now_ ... not easy to do that with most other products.

On that note, it ain't like I don't know how to ****ing restore doors:

Besides the new wood added, Bondo was used to fill all the old holes and
dings:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...?noredirect=1#

Now, mr tuppence, show us your's ...


But the OP just said the paint came off at the joint. IF that's all
that happened there is not necessarily ant wood repair (and certainly
no replacement) to do. When panels move in mullions, depending how the
door was made and paintes the paint cracks from expansion withouit any
further damage.

On 5/16/2016 4:09 PM, wrote:

But the OP just said the paint came off at the joint.

OP indicated there were "low spots" and asked about "filling" them ...
thus the very brief comment about what my paint contractors do in
similar situations.

IF that's all
that happened there is not necessarily ant wood repair (and certainly
no replacement) to do. When panels move in mullions, depending how the
door was made and paintes the paint cracks from expansion withouit any
further damage.

Did you miss the snide remarks and video I was more or less addressing
with that admittedly oblique reply, ignoring them, or did it just go
over your heard?

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
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https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
https://www.facebook.com/eWoodShop-206166666122228
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On Mon, 16 May 2016 14:34:25 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 5/16/2016 10:35 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 5/16/2016 9:29 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
Not exactly woodworking, but ...

Two custom-built wooden exterior doors have developed cracks in the
paint, mostly where the original pieces of wood were joined. The paint
has flaked off to bare wood in those areas, leaving maybe 1" exposed,
but the rest of the paint is in reasonable shape.

We're having a guy come paint the door (this is a commercial building,
not my house), but he's a handyman at best (I didn't pick the workman).
We'll have to guide him.

After scraping away the cracked paint, what can we do to smooth the
edges that are left, and prep the door for (primer and) paint? Do we
sand down the edges? Or "putty up" the low spots? Hand sanding? Sander?
Grinder with flap disk? Something else?

Bondo wood filler, applied, sanded and painted, is usually what my
painters use to repair those type areas in doors.

Robert might have some other tricks up his sleeve, so hope he'll chime in.

YMMV ...


Rock Hard makes a great wood filler that can be painted.

Mixes with water no nasty fumes.

+2

Leon wrote:

Rock Hard makes a great wood filler that can be painted.

You can save some money by buying a bag of setting dry wall compound. It is
gypsum - like Rock Hard - too.

On 5/16/2016 11:35 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 5/16/2016 9:29 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
Not exactly woodworking, but ...

Two custom-built wooden exterior doors have developed cracks in the
paint, mostly where the original pieces of wood were joined. The paint
has flaked off to bare wood in those areas, leaving maybe 1" exposed,
but the rest of the paint is in reasonable shape.

We're having a guy come paint the door (this is a commercial building,
not my house), but he's a handyman at best (I didn't pick the workman).
We'll have to guide him.

After scraping away the cracked paint, what can we do to smooth the
edges that are left, and prep the door for (primer and) paint? Do we
sand down the edges? Or "putty up" the low spots? Hand sanding? Sander?
Grinder with flap disk? Something else?

Bondo wood filler, applied, sanded and painted, is usually what my
painters use to repair those type areas in doors.

Robert might have some other tricks up his sleeve, so hope he'll chime in.

YMMV ...

Wow. Really more answers than I could have hoped for. But the job has
been in progress since yesterday and the results are looking acceptable,
I think. He's using the Bondo.

Thanks to all.

On 5/18/2016 10:49 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:

Wow. Really more answers than I could have hoped for. But the job has
been in progress since yesterday and the results are looking acceptable,
I think. He's using the Bondo.

Gasp! OOOFUUUCCCKKINGGMMMMGGGG, we're done for.

NOT Bondo!!! ... puppies will die, and gigantic holes will be ripped in
the space-time continuum.

Say isn't so ...

--
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Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
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http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
https://www.facebook.com/eWoodShop-206166666122228
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

Swingman wrote:
On 5/18/2016 10:49 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:

Wow. Really more answers than I could have hoped for. But the job has
been in progress since yesterday and the results are looking acceptable,
I think. He's using the Bondo.

Gasp! OOOFUUUCCCKKINGGMMMMGGGG, we're done for.

NOT Bondo!!! ... puppies will die, and gigantic holes will be ripped in
the space-time continuum.

Say isn't so ...


Hey - you can't comment Karl. Don't you remember - you were deemed to
be a "clown". (by some clown on google groups - who must know what he's
talking about 'cause he posted a link...)

--
-Mike-

On Wednesday, May 18, 2016 at 11:08:38 AM UTC-5, Mike Marlow wrote:

Hey - you can't comment Karl. Don't you remember - you were deemed to
be a "clown". (by some clown on google groups - who must know what he's
talking about 'cause he posted a link...)

--
-Mike-

I am not sure I would trust a post from Karl at this point either unless he attaches a link to an unrelated video uploaded by an idiot shill to further their own agenda. I just wouldn't make sense.

Of course if Karl tells me he is now a member of The Flat Earth Society and he includes a video on making raspberry scones as his proof, I'll take it!

;^)

Robert

On 5/18/2016 11:08 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Swingman wrote:
On 5/18/2016 10:49 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:

Wow. Really more answers than I could have hoped for. But the job has
been in progress since yesterday and the results are looking acceptable,
I think. He's using the Bondo.

Gasp! OOOFUUUCCCKKINGGMMMMGGGG, we're done for.

NOT Bondo!!! ... puppies will die, and gigantic holes will be ripped in
the space-time continuum.

Say isn't so ...


Hey - you can't comment Karl. Don't you remember - you were deemed to
be a "clown". (by some clown on google groups - who must know what he's
talking about 'cause he posted a link...)



What is "giggle groups"? ;~)

On Wed, 18 May 2016 11:49:31 -0400, Greg Guarino
wrote:

On 5/16/2016 11:35 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 5/16/2016 9:29 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
Not exactly woodworking, but ...

Two custom-built wooden exterior doors have developed cracks in the
paint, mostly where the original pieces of wood were joined. The paint
has flaked off to bare wood in those areas, leaving maybe 1" exposed,
but the rest of the paint is in reasonable shape.

We're having a guy come paint the door (this is a commercial building,
not my house), but he's a handyman at best (I didn't pick the workman).
We'll have to guide him.

After scraping away the cracked paint, what can we do to smooth the
edges that are left, and prep the door for (primer and) paint? Do we
sand down the edges? Or "putty up" the low spots? Hand sanding? Sander?
Grinder with flap disk? Something else?

Bondo wood filler, applied, sanded and painted, is usually what my
painters use to repair those type areas in doors.

Robert might have some other tricks up his sleeve, so hope he'll chime in.

YMMV ...

Wow. Really more answers than I could have hoped for. But the job has
been in progress since yesterday and the results are looking acceptable,
I think. He's using the Bondo.

Thanks to all.
When I replaced the wooden front door of my house I replaced it with
a fiberglass door.. Cost a bit more, but I should never have to
replace it again in my lifetime.

I worked for 2 different window and door companies over the years and
saw enough trouble with exterior wood panel doors to convince me never
to buy anoyher one.

On 5/18/2016 10:49 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:


YMMV ...

Wow. Really more answers than I could have hoped for. But the job has
been in progress since yesterday and the results are looking acceptable,
I think. He's using the Bondo.

Thanks to all.


LOL. The easy way out may be to build a whole new door and paint it. ;~)

Greg Guarino wrote:
Not exactly woodworking, but ...

Two custom-built wooden exterior doors have developed cracks in the
paint, mostly where the original pieces of wood were joined. The paint
has flaked off to bare wood in those areas, leaving maybe 1" exposed,
but the rest of the paint is in reasonable shape.

We're having a guy come paint the door (this is a commercial building,
not my house), but he's a handyman at best (I didn't pick the
workman). We'll have to guide him.

After scraping away the cracked paint, what can we do to smooth the
edges that are left, and prep the door for (primer and) paint? Do we
sand down the edges? Or "putty up" the low spots? Hand sanding?
Sander? Grinder with flap disk? Something else?

1. Hand sand the areas with a hard rubber sanding block. The goal is
twofold: 1, accomplish some but not all feathering and 2, primarily, to
renew the weathered surface of the exposed wood.

2. Get a tube of fairing/body purtty at Napa or other similar. You could
use Bondo but the putty is easier to work with and MUCH easier to sand. It
is basically talc and lacquer so if you have the ingredients you can make
your own.

3. Apply the putty with one of those credit card size, flexible plastic
spatulas used for bondo. The goal is to fill low areas. When dry, hand sand
the areas with a hard rubber sanding block. Repeat if necessar.

4. Prime and paint.

BTW, the paint will probably eventually crack again at the joints

On Monday, May 16, 2016 at 3:00:57 PM UTC-4, dadiOH wrote:
Greg Guarino wrote:
Not exactly woodworking, but ...

Two custom-built wooden exterior doors have developed cracks in the
paint, mostly where the original pieces of wood were joined. The paint
has flaked off to bare wood in those areas, leaving maybe 1" exposed,
but the rest of the paint is in reasonable shape.

We're having a guy come paint the door (this is a commercial building,
not my house), but he's a handyman at best (I didn't pick the
workman). We'll have to guide him.

After scraping away the cracked paint, what can we do to smooth the
edges that are left, and prep the door for (primer and) paint? Do we
sand down the edges? Or "putty up" the low spots? Hand sanding?
Sander? Grinder with flap disk? Something else?

1. Hand sand the areas with a hard rubber sanding block. The goal is
twofold: 1, accomplish some but not all feathering and 2, primarily, to
renew the weathered surface of the exposed wood.

2. Get a tube of fairing/body purtty at Napa or other similar. You could
use Bondo but the putty is easier to work with and MUCH easier to sand. It
is basically talc and lacquer so if you have the ingredients you can make
your own.

3. Apply the putty with one of those credit card size, flexible plastic
spatulas used for bondo.

I save my hotel card keys for things like spreading bondo, mixing small
batches of epoxy (JB Weld, etc.), even shims in some cases.

....snip...