On Monday, September 7, 2015 at 8:35:43 PM UTC-5, Lew Hodgett wrote:
The Subject line pretty much say's it all, NOT TODAY!

At least 95F outside window all afternoon.

No painting, no laying resin, no drinking beer. WHAT?

No drinking beer?

Afraid not.

Even a cold one doesn't
taste good on a day like this.

Time to stick with water and stay in the shade.

Robert, if you are trying to do a re-roofing job in weather like this,
good luck.

You and the crews repairing chuck holes in the roads.

Lew

We had a few days of mild temps and humidity, then yesterday was unbearably hot and muggy. Sapped our energy!

Our road repair crews don't how to use a level.

Sonny

Sonny wrote in
:


We had a few days of mild temps and humidity, then yesterday was
unbearably hot and muggy. Sapped our energy!

Our road repair crews don't how to use a level.

Sonny


How do you use a level to get a crowned surface?

Ok, this sounds like a sarcastic question and it is. But sometimes there's
a real answer that's fascinating... but I doubt it.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

Sonny wrote in
:

Our road repair crews don't how to use a level.

Speaking of level, one of the mysteries of modern life is
why modern day road paving technology is unable to get a
manhole level with the road.

When I was young, pretty much all the manholes were flush
with the road (when you ride a bicycle, you're pretty aware
of such things).

But today, around here at least, it seems impossible to
make them flush, other than the occasional accident. If
the manhole isn't an inch or two below the road, then the
manhole itself will be flush, but surrounded by a moat 6
to 8 inches wide, which is an inch or two below the road.

Certainly this is one area where modern technology isn't
progress.

John

On 9/8/2015 11:05 AM, John McCoy wrote:
Sonny wrote in
:

Our road repair crews don't how to use a level.

Speaking of level, one of the mysteries of modern life is
why modern day road paving technology is unable to get a
manhole level with the road.

When I was young, pretty much all the manholes were flush
with the road (when you ride a bicycle, you're pretty aware
of such things).

But today, around here at least, it seems impossible to
make them flush, other than the occasional accident. If
the manhole isn't an inch or two below the road, then the
manhole itself will be flush, but surrounded by a moat 6
to 8 inches wide, which is an inch or two below the road.

Certainly this is one area where modern technology isn't
progress.

John


Roads get resurfaced, man hole covers don't.
A simple spacer to extend the hole lip would be the easy answer.

On 9/8/2015 9:51 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
Sonny wrote in
:


We had a few days of mild temps and humidity, then yesterday was
unbearably hot and muggy. Sapped our energy!

Our road repair crews don't how to use a level.

Sonny


How do you use a level to get a crowned surface?

Ok, this sounds like a sarcastic question and it is. But sometimes there's
a real answer that's fascinating... but I doubt it.

Puckdropper



Well consider this. If roads were level water would not run towards the
drains.

On Tue, 8 Sep 2015 16:05:46 +0000 (UTC), John McCoy
wrote:

Speaking of level, one of the mysteries of modern life is
why modern day road paving technology is unable to get a
manhole level with the road.

It cause of gobal warming as all things bad are.

Leon wrote:
On 9/8/2015 11:05 AM, John McCoy wrote:
Sonny wrote in
:

Our road repair crews don't how to use a level.

Speaking of level, one of the mysteries of modern life is
why modern day road paving technology is unable to get a
manhole level with the road.

When I was young, pretty much all the manholes were flush
with the road (when you ride a bicycle, you're pretty aware
of such things).

But today, around here at least, it seems impossible to
make them flush, other than the occasional accident. If
the manhole isn't an inch or two below the road, then the
manhole itself will be flush, but surrounded by a moat 6
to 8 inches wide, which is an inch or two below the road.

Certainly this is one area where modern technology isn't
progress.

John


Roads get resurfaced, man hole covers don't.
A simple spacer to extend the hole lip would be the easy answer.

Spacers do exist, but my town doesn't know that.

--
GW Ross

Men still remember the first kiss
after women have forgotten the last.

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in news:E4GdnQ-
:

Roads get resurfaced, man hole covers don't.
A simple spacer to extend the hole lip would be the easy answer.

They have those - it's a simple ring that sits on the top of
the housing to lift the cover up by 3/4 inch (*). I have one
- for some reason one was left in the middle of the sidewalk
when they resurfaced roads near me, so I picked it up and
brought it home.

But the problem of uneven manholes exists on both new and
resurfaced roads around here. Some of it seems to be a
failure in paving (the pavement being above the manhole),
and some of it seems to be a problem of subsurface prep
(the subsurface compacting, leaving the manhole above the
pavement).

John

(* I assume they come in other sizes too, the one I have
is 3/4)

On Tuesday, September 8, 2015 at 9:51:33 AM UTC-5, Puckdropper at dot wrote:

How do you use a level to get a crowned surface?

Ok, this sounds like a sarcastic question and it is. But sometimes there's
a real answer that's fascinating... but I doubt it.

Puckdropper

If you didn't use a level, what would you use?

As a commercial superintendent, I have literally been responsible for acres or concrete and pavement. I can crown a road or drive with a 4' level, a sighted level or a water level.

Standard drainage declination is 1/4" per foot (no snow consideration), less or more if stamped by civil engineer.

Say you wanted to put a crown on the road to make it drain to the gutters on each side that drain into a runoff drain box or to a collection point on your street. Start at the drain lip, and using something as simple as a 4' level, drive a peg (we use rebar scraps) until it is 1" higher than level. Now you have proper drainage. Repeat from the top of your peg to establish another 4'. To get the standard 10' lane, from the top of your last peg go another 2', then raise it 1/2". Now you have one half of a two lane street, with the proper drainage established.

When you pour concrete, you pour to the top of the pegs, using your straight edge from peg to peg to keep it crowned. When you are laying asphalt, you are laying it over graded material that was laid, cut and compacted to grade by establishing those same pegs,except that the pegs they use are wood and have highly colored brushes on them so they can be easily seen by machine operators.

For road work, parking lots, and other large areas, you simply use a sighted level (the instrument you see guys peeking through on job sights)and "stick" or "rod" to do EXACTLY the same thing.

Let your mind wander. You can change the angles to anything you want, you can start at the high point and go down instead of up, you can make a wide, single slope road or drive, etc. To make the curves more gentle, simply make your points that establish the desired finished surface grade closer together.

When we are doing paved walks, small patios, or anything else small we just use a 4' level. When I was in commercial, I used the instrument (level) so much I had it in my truck half the time. My concrete guy uses a 6' level zip tied to a 10' straightedge, and establishes his grades in short order once he figures out the math.

Not sexy, but you honestly sounded like you didn't know.

Robert

" wrote in
:

On Tuesday, September 8, 2015 at 9:51:33 AM UTC-5, Puckdropper at dot
wrote:

How do you use a level to get a crowned surface?

Ok, this sounds like a sarcastic question and it is. But sometimes
there
's
a real answer that's fascinating... but I doubt it.

Puckdropper

If you didn't use a level, what would you use?

As a commercial superintendent, I have literally been responsible for
acres or concrete and pavement. I can crown a road or drive with a 4'
level, a sighted level or a water level.

Standard drainage declination is 1/4" per foot (no snow
consideration), less or more if stamped by civil engineer.

Say you wanted to put a crown on the road to make it drain to the
gutters on each side that drain into a runoff drain box or to a
collection point on your street. Start at the drain lip, and using
something as simple as a 4' level, drive a peg (we use rebar scraps)
until it is 1" higher than level. Now you have proper drainage.
Repeat from the top of your peg to establish another 4'. To get the
standard 10' lane, from the top of your last peg go another 2', then
raise it 1/2". Now you have one half of a two lane street, with the
proper drainage established.

When you pour concrete, you pour to the top of the pegs, using your
straight edge from peg to peg to keep it crowned. When you are laying
asphalt, you are laying it over graded material that was laid, cut and
compacted to grade by establishing those same pegs,except that the
pegs they use are wood and have highly colored brushes on them so they
can be easily seen by machine operators.

For road work, parking lots, and other large areas, you simply use a
sighted level (the instrument you see guys peeking through on job
sights)and "stick" or "rod" to do EXACTLY the same thing.

Let your mind wander. You can change the angles to anything you want,
you can start at the high point and go down instead of up, you can
make a wide, single slope road or drive, etc. To make the curves more
gentle, simply make your points that establish the desired finished
surface grade closer together.

When we are doing paved walks, small patios, or anything else small we
just use a 4' level. When I was in commercial, I used the instrument
(level) so much I had it in my truck half the time. My concrete guy
uses a 6' level zip tied to a 10' straightedge, and establishes his
grades in short order once he figures out the math.

Not sexy, but you honestly sounded like you didn't know.

Robert


Thanks Robert. You're right, not sexy but still interesting reading.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

Puckdropper puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote in news:55ef3b91$0$56544
:

Thanks Robert. You're right, not sexy but still interesting reading.

Agree, that was interesting to know.

Are things done differently for very wide roads? I have in
mind some parts of I-95 in FLA and GA that are 4 and 5 lanes
wide on each side, and seem to be darn close to perfectly
flat. They certainly don't drain worth a darn when it rains.
Is there some limit on how low the edges can be, that prevents
cambering very wide roads?

John

Sonny wrote:


Our road repair crews don't how to use a level.


Not sure why they should even want to use a level on their job.

--

-Mike-

On Wednesday, September 9, 2015 at 11:15:41 AM UTC-5, Mike Marlow wrote:
Sonny wrote:


Our road repair crews don't how to use a level.


Not sure why they should even want to use a level on their job.

The idea was that they either overfill or underfill a pot hole. Seems they can't figure out how to make the surfaces even or what it takes to make the surfaces even.

Sonny

Sonny wrote:
On Wednesday, September 9, 2015 at 11:15:41 AM UTC-5, Mike Marlow
wrote:
Sonny wrote:


Our road repair crews don't how to use a level.


Not sure why they should even want to use a level on their job.

The idea was that they either overfill or underfill a pot hole.
Seems they can't figure out how to make the surfaces even or what it
takes to make the surfaces even.


Got that part of things, but that does not require a level in any way.

--

-Mike-

On 9/9/2015 2:22 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Sonny wrote:
On Wednesday, September 9, 2015 at 11:15:41 AM UTC-5, Mike Marlow
wrote:
Sonny wrote:


Our road repair crews don't how to use a level.


Not sure why they should even want to use a level on their job.

The idea was that they either overfill or underfill a pot hole.
Seems they can't figure out how to make the surfaces even or what it
takes to make the surfaces even.


Got that part of things, but that does not require a level in any way.


Right, straight edge. Fill that hole and make a lump.

Ed Pawlowski wrote in news:5tednbEL97m-FG3InZ2dnUU7-
:

On 9/9/2015 2:22 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Sonny wrote:

The idea was that they either overfill or underfill a pot hole.
Seems they can't figure out how to make the surfaces even or what it
takes to make the surfaces even.


Got that part of things, but that does not require a level in any way.


Right, straight edge. Fill that hole and make a lump.

Do they not use a road-roller (or, as they once were
called, a steam-roller)? That's the traditional and
usually efficacious way to get a flat road surface.

John

On Wed, 9 Sep 2015 19:55:14 +0000 (UTC), John McCoy
wrote:

Ed Pawlowski wrote in news:5tednbEL97m-FG3InZ2dnUU7-
:

On 9/9/2015 2:22 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Sonny wrote:

The idea was that they either overfill or underfill a pot hole.
Seems they can't figure out how to make the surfaces even or what it
takes to make the surfaces even.


Got that part of things, but that does not require a level in any way.


Right, straight edge. Fill that hole and make a lump.

Do they not use a road-roller (or, as they once were
called, a steam-roller)? That's the traditional and
usually efficacious way to get a flat road surface.

Most pot hole repairs involve a shovel, cold patch maybe a hand
tamper. More than likely just a few wacks with the shovel. With a crew
of five.

On Wed, 09 Sep 2015 19:27:16 -0500, Markem
wrote:

On Wed, 9 Sep 2015 19:55:14 +0000 (UTC), John McCoy
wrote:

Ed Pawlowski wrote in news:5tednbEL97m-FG3InZ2dnUU7-
:

On 9/9/2015 2:22 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Sonny wrote:

The idea was that they either overfill or underfill a pot hole.
Seems they can't figure out how to make the surfaces even or what it
takes to make the surfaces even.


Got that part of things, but that does not require a level in any way.


Right, straight edge. Fill that hole and make a lump.

Do they not use a road-roller (or, as they once were
called, a steam-roller)? That's the traditional and
usually efficacious way to get a flat road surface.

Most pot hole repairs involve a shovel, cold patch maybe a hand
tamper. More than likely just a few wacks with the shovel. With a crew
of five.

Vermont DOT invented a gadget that saved them 80% of their highway
budget; the shovel that stands by itself.

Markem wrote:
On Wed, 9 Sep 2015 19:55:14 +0000 (UTC), John McCoy
wrote:

Ed Pawlowski wrote in news:5tednbEL97m-FG3InZ2dnUU7-
:

On 9/9/2015 2:22 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Sonny wrote:

The idea was that they either overfill or underfill a pot hole.
Seems they can't figure out how to make the surfaces even or what it
takes to make the surfaces even.


Got that part of things, but that does not require a level in any way.


Right, straight edge. Fill that hole and make a lump.

Do they not use a road-roller (or, as they once were
called, a steam-roller)? That's the traditional and
usually efficacious way to get a flat road surface.

Most pot hole repairs involve a shovel, cold patch maybe a hand
tamper. More than likely just a few wacks with the shovel. With a crew
of five.

Around here it is a crew of 5 with one shovel, 2 trucks and 3 pickups.

--
You either teach people to treat you with dignity and respect, or
you don't. This means you are partly responsible for the mistreatment
that you get at the hands of someone else.

John McCoy writes:
Ed Pawlowski wrote in news:5tednbEL97m-FG3InZ2dnUU7-
:

On 9/9/2015 2:22 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Sonny wrote:

The idea was that they either overfill or underfill a pot hole.
Seems they can't figure out how to make the surfaces even or what it
takes to make the surfaces even.


Got that part of things, but that does not require a level in any way.


Right, straight edge. Fill that hole and make a lump.

Do they not use a road-roller (or, as they once were
called, a steam-roller)? That's the traditional and
usually efficacious way to get a flat road surface.

The roller's purpose is to compress the asphalt. The flatness
of the surface is defined by the flatness of the roadbed that
the asphalt is protecting. The flatness of the roadbed itself
(plus any required pitch for drainage) is a result of the stake
and grading process described upthread.

Permanently repairing a pothole requires carefully bonding the old
and new asphalt to prevent premature deterioration at the
boundaries.

When quickly repairing potholes, the repair is often left proud and the
compression is done by traffic instead of a roller.

(Scott Lurndal) wrote in news:cTgIx.7652$wK5.5555
@fx11.iad:

John McCoy writes:

Do they not use a road-roller (or, as they once were
called, a steam-roller)? That's the traditional and
usually efficacious way to get a flat road surface.

The roller's purpose is to compress the asphalt. The flatness
of the surface is defined by the flatness of the roadbed that
the asphalt is protecting.

Well, yes and no. In the case of a pot hole, I would assume it
would be over-filled, then rolled, and the roller would compress
until it spanned the edges of the hole, at which point the
roller would act as a straight-edge leaving a flat surface.

On a larger scale the roller would just follow the underlying
contour, as you say.

John

On 9/10/2015 10:57 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:


Permanently repairing a pothole requires carefully bonding the old
and new asphalt to prevent premature deterioration at the
boundaries.

When quickly repairing potholes, the repair is often left proud and the
compression is done by traffic instead of a roller.

You would think they would have a better system by now. I know of a few
potholes that are filled three or four times a year. Given the present
state of technology for adhesives, there has to be a better material for
repeat offenders. Maybe its job security for the Highway Department.

On 9/10/2015 5:58 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/10/2015 10:57 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:


Permanently repairing a pothole requires carefully bonding the old
and new asphalt to prevent premature deterioration at the
boundaries.

When quickly repairing potholes, the repair is often left proud and the
compression is done by traffic instead of a roller.

You would think they would have a better system by now. I know of a few
potholes that are filled three or four times a year. Given the present
state of technology for adhesives, there has to be a better material for
repeat offenders. Maybe its job security for the Highway Department.

If the repair guys worked for a company that had to stand behind the
repairs, yes, the pot holes could probably be repaired and not thought
of again.

But the repair guys are working for your local government and don't have
to produce lasting results.


And Yes, it is job security.

On Thursday, September 10, 2015 at 5:57:54 PM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

You would think they would have a better system by now. I know of a few
potholes that are filled three or four times a year. Given the present
state of technology for adhesives, there has to be a better material for
repeat offenders. Maybe its job security for the Highway Department.

When doing parking lot maintenance for a client, if they have a pot hole from a soft spot, contraction/expansion, or damage, I clean the hole out to "broom clean", making sure there is not much debris in the hole.

If the hole is small, say the circumference of a basketball, I don't put any steel in it. If it is larger and more than 6" deep, I do. Then I roll up the wheel barrow, mix concrete, color it with a bit of black, then add the accelerator and pour it on the hole and screed it even. Leave the barriers up till the end of the day. The repair is fast, permanent and waterproof. If the concrete is poured to the edge, the asphalt won't ravel, and the repair will last for years.

By having that same repair done on the City's or State's budget, it keeps several people in jobs and provides them some security as the city/state prefers to repair the same type of hole around here up to two times a year.

If the came out to a road full of pot holes, cleaned them out a bit and shot fast curing concrete in as a final fix, half the city road workers around here would be looking for work. That type of repair is too fast and too final.

Robert

On Tuesday, September 8, 2015 at 4:33:56 PM UTC-5, John McCoy wrote:

Agree, that was interesting to know.

Are things done differently for very wide roads? I have in
mind some parts of I-95 in FLA and GA that are 4 and 5 lanes
wide on each side, and seem to be darn close to perfectly
flat. They certainly don't drain worth a darn when it rains.
Is there some limit on how low the edges can be, that prevents
cambering very wide roads?

John

Well, if that was interesting... a few more thoughts.

Wider roads become problematic due to existing drainage conditions. Factors to consider are the type of surface (concrete/asphalt) as they drain at different speeds. Also, the type of drainage that serves the surface because even if the roads are covered with water you don't want to overfill the drains. Without decent airflow to displace the rushing rain water, suction will occur and drainage will stop. With those two simple factors in mind, it is the accepted practice to design the drainage serve certain areas based on it drainage capability. Trust me, you would rather have water on the road over a drainage system that is full and cannot drain because it is sucking air.

And yes, depending on its design a wide set of lanes can have a nice camber to it, and unless severe you won't notice it in your car. Around here, for off ramps and entry ramps that are 2-3 lanes wide, they use a single slope draining into a system that handles only that ramp, and dumps somewhere else. No camber, only slope.

Basically today the setup is the same to establish road beds. In the old days, angles were "turned" (coined by turning the head of the instrument to the correct angles to determine a curve. Now they use a theodolite, which does the same thing with incredible accuracy. They still use sighted levels in some cases, but also use lasers for long distances.

Most $400 levels will shoot a level line about 150' or so with no more than 1/4" deviation. Lasers will go farther and are more accurate (and much, much more expensive) but you don't have to deal with heat shimmers or trying to read the measuring rod. When I was setting forms and leveling tilt panels, we used to take a reading in the morning, move the instrument around noon and reshoot, then move closer to the work and shoot one more time at the end of the day.

Really, it was fascinating for me to learn that stuff, although today I use an inexpensive level and the largest thing I have shot in lately was a frickin' patio.

Robert

On 9/10/2015 6:57 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2015 at 4:33:56 PM UTC-5, John McCoy wrote:

Agree, that was interesting to know.

Are things done differently for very wide roads? I have in mind
some parts of I-95 in FLA and GA that are 4 and 5 lanes wide on
each side, and seem to be darn close to perfectly flat. They
certainly don't drain worth a darn when it rains. Is there some
limit on how low the edges can be, that prevents cambering very
wide roads?

John

Well, if that was interesting... a few more thoughts.

Wider roads become problematic due to existing drainage conditions.
Factors to consider are the type of surface (concrete/asphalt) as
they drain at different speeds. Also, the type of drainage that
serves the surface because even if the roads are covered with water
you don't want to overfill the drains. Without decent airflow to
displace the rushing rain water, suction will occur and drainage will
stop.

HA! Getting ready to pour my second Rebecca Creek....
Simple solution, install a bent pipe.

Can't wait to see y'all this Christmas.