Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
|
Woodworking (rec.woodworking) Discussion forum covering all aspects of working with wood. All levels of expertise are encouraged to particiapte. |
Reply |
|
|
LinkBack | Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Steel Wool vs.Sandpaper
Let the discussion begin!
First coat of Minwax Wipe-On Poly, Clear Satin has been applied to poplar. To prepare for the next coat, would you use 0000 steel wool, 400 grit sandpaper or something else? Thanks. |
#2
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Steel Wool vs.Sandpaper
DerbyDad03 wrote:
Let the discussion begin! First coat of Minwax Wipe-On Poly, Clear Satin has been applied to poplar. To prepare for the next coat, would you use 0000 steel wool, 400 grit sandpaper or something else? Ever since 3M pads became commonly available, I have not used steel wool for any sort of finish work. Gone are the days of fibers hiding in tight corners, etc. The red (burgandy) 3M pads work well in place of the 0000 steel wool pads, and leave nothing behind except dust. -- -Mike- |
#3
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Steel Wool vs.Sandpaper
DerbyDad03 wrote in
: Let the discussion begin! First coat of Minwax Wipe-On Poly, Clear Satin has been applied to poplar. To prepare for the next coat, would you use 0000 steel wool, 400 grit sandpaper or something else? I'll be interested to see what opinions people have to this question. I use sandpaper for everything except the last coat. John |
#4
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Steel Wool vs.Sandpaper
On Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 8:42:56 AM UTC-4, Mike Marlow wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote: Let the discussion begin! First coat of Minwax Wipe-On Poly, Clear Satin has been applied to poplar. To prepare for the next coat, would you use 0000 steel wool, 400 grit sandpaper or something else? Ever since 3M pads became commonly available, I have not used steel wool for any sort of finish work. Gone are the days of fibers hiding in tight corners, etc. The red (burgandy) 3M pads work well in place of the 0000 steel wool pads, and leave nothing behind except dust. -- -Mike- I've not tried sanding pads. Sponges - yes, pads - no. Will I be able to get into all the nooks and crannies of this project? http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/q...s0qikftgw.jpeg Each slat has a round over where it attaches to the shelves and about 1" of space between each slat. I had to use a brush to get "behind" the round overs because even with using the rag it was tough to get the poly deep into the gaps. I also have to sand each 3/4" slat and between each slat. Are the pads flexible enough for all of these small places? Steel wool sure is, sandpaper not as much. |
#5
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Steel Wool vs.Sandpaper
On 7/30/2015 8:38 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Let the discussion begin! First coat of Minwax Wipe-On Poly, Clear Satin has been applied to poplar. To prepare for the next coat, would you use 0000 steel wool, 400 grit sandpaper or something else? Thanks. Let me be the first to give you some belated and unhelpful advice: you probably should have prefinished the parts before assembly. My experience is limited, but I find it to be a great deal easier, and you don't get build-up in the corners. I don't need to worry as much about glue squeeze-out either with prefinished surfaces. Having said that, I disregarded my own advice a ways back. I simply couldn't resist putting together the "ladder" sides of two shelf units I made: https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguar...1490/lightbox/ My "slats" are further apart than yours, but it was still a pain to get into all of those recesses. I don't think I'll make that mistake again. I think I may have used a block of wood with a piece of sandpaper glued to two sides, like these, but with finer grit: https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguar...ream/lightbox/ I did prefinish the rest of the parts, which required some cleverness to array them all so they could dry without touching anything: https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguar...1490/lightbox/ And of course, I had to mask the mating areas. https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguar...7644207411490/ I have used sandpaper, steel wool and even those scotch-brite style pads between coats of finish. They all seemed to work OK, but finishing is still a mystery to me, so I'll be interested to see what responses you get. |
#6
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Steel Wool vs.Sandpaper
"Mike Marlow" wrote in
: Ever since 3M pads became commonly available, I have not used steel wool for any sort of finish work. Gone are the days of fibers hiding in tight corners, etc. The red (burgandy) 3M pads work well in place of the 0000 steel wool pads, and leave nothing behind except dust. Are these the ones you're talking about? http://www.amazon.com/3M-Scotch-Brite-Maroon-General- Purpose/dp/B0002SQYF0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1438269156&sr=8-1&keywords= 3M+burgandy+pad No fibers would be nice when I'm working with Shellac. Puckdropper -- Make it to fit, don't make it fit. |
#7
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Steel Wool vs.Sandpaper
On Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 10:50:43 AM UTC-4, Greg Guarino wrote:
On 7/30/2015 8:38 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote: Let the discussion begin! First coat of Minwax Wipe-On Poly, Clear Satin has been applied to poplar. To prepare for the next coat, would you use 0000 steel wool, 400 grit sandpaper or something else? Thanks. Let me be the first to give you some belated and unhelpful advice: you probably should have prefinished the parts before assembly. My experience is limited, but I find it to be a great deal easier, and you don't get build-up in the corners. I don't need to worry as much about glue squeeze-out either with prefinished surfaces. Having said that, I disregarded my own advice a ways back. I simply couldn't resist putting together the "ladder" sides of two shelf units I made: https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguar...1490/lightbox/ Note: I can't access your images at this time, but I will look at them later. Thanks for the suggestion of finishing the parts before assembly. I had considered that approach and consciously chose not to employ it. I don't really have enough dedicated space to easily pre-finish 19 slats and 2 shelves. I thought about different methods of standing them up, lying them down, hanging them, etc. It would just not be convenient, certainly more inconvenient than the issues related to finishing this particular project after assembly. That said, even if I *had* finished them prior to assembly, I would still have the same question after the first coat: Steel wool vs. sandpaper My "slats" are further apart than yours, but it was still a pain to get into all of those recesses. I don't think I'll make that mistake again. I think I may have used a block of wood with a piece of sandpaper glued to two sides, like these, but with finer grit: https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguar...ream/lightbox/ I did prefinish the rest of the parts, which required some cleverness to array them all so they could dry without touching anything: https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguar...1490/lightbox/ And of course, I had to mask the mating areas. https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguar...7644207411490/ I have used sandpaper, steel wool and even those scotch-brite style pads between coats of finish. They all seemed to work OK, but finishing is still a mystery to me, so I'll be interested to see what responses you get. |
#8
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Steel Wool vs.Sandpaper
DerbyDad03 wrote:
I've not tried sanding pads. Sponges - yes, pads - no. Will I be able to get into all the nooks and crannies of this project? You should be able to - even easier than steel wool because they have a certain amount of stiffness to them which allows you to work them into tight places. Here's a link... http://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/...gclsrc=aw.d s I don't buy from this site but it was the first site that popped up in a search for 3m pads http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/q...s0qikftgw.jpeg Each slat has a round over where it attaches to the shelves and about 1" of space between each slat. I had to use a brush to get "behind" the round overs because even with using the rag it was tough to get the poly deep into the gaps. They should work just fine for that project. I also have to sand each 3/4" slat and between each slat. Are the pads flexible enough for all of these small places? Steel wool sure is, sandpaper not as much. Flexible enough, plus if you need a bit of strength, they have that over steel wool so you can work them into areas that you can't do with steel wool -- -Mike- |
#9
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Steel Wool vs.Sandpaper
Puckdropper wrote:
"Mike Marlow" wrote in : Ever since 3M pads became commonly available, I have not used steel wool for any sort of finish work. Gone are the days of fibers hiding in tight corners, etc. The red (burgandy) 3M pads work well in place of the 0000 steel wool pads, and leave nothing behind except dust. Are these the ones you're talking about? http://www.amazon.com/3M-Scotch-Brite-Maroon-General- Purpose/dp/B0002SQYF0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1438269156&sr=8-1&keywords= 3M+burgandy+pad No fibers would be nice when I'm working with Shellac. Yes. I use those for the most part, and sometimes I use the grey ones - which are a finer grit, but to be honest, I don't really need to use the grey grit. These work for just about everything. I will scuff up clear coat, just to develop a tooth with these, and then shoot clear on. Comes out perfect. Remember - I'm going for a much more perfect finish than the typical woodworking application might require, and they work that well for me. And yes - you will love the no-fiber aspect of using these pads. I'll never go back to steel wool for anything besides taking light rust off of metal, again. -- -Mike- |
#10
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Steel Wool vs.Sandpaper
On Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 2:51:48 PM UTC-4, Mike Marlow wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote: I've not tried sanding pads. Sponges - yes, pads - no. Will I be able to get into all the nooks and crannies of this project? You should be able to - even easier than steel wool because they have a certain amount of stiffness to them which allows you to work them into tight places. Here's a link... http://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/...gclsrc=aw.d s I don't buy from this site but it was the first site that popped up in a search for 3m pads http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/q...s0qikftgw.jpeg Each slat has a round over where it attaches to the shelves and about 1" of space between each slat. I had to use a brush to get "behind" the round overs because even with using the rag it was tough to get the poly deep into the gaps. They should work just fine for that project. I also have to sand each 3/4" slat and between each slat. Are the pads flexible enough for all of these small places? Steel wool sure is, sandpaper not as much. Flexible enough, plus if you need a bit of strength, they have that over steel wool so you can work them into areas that you can't do with steel wool Neither of the Borgs carry that exact pad, but Lowes carries something close. I'm trying to get this done by the end of the week so I can move on to other stuff, so I may just go with a couple of the Lowes pads for now. Worst case is if I don't like 'em, I've already got the steel wool and sandpaper. Thanks! http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay?...llow&cId=PDIO1 |
#11
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Steel Wool vs.Sandpaper
DerbyDad03 wrote:
Let the discussion begin! First coat of Minwax Wipe-On Poly, Clear Satin has been applied to poplar. To prepare for the next coat, would you use 0000 steel wool, 400 grit sandpaper or something else? Regardless of what you use, it need not be that fine; nor do you need to thoroughly sand all the nooks and crannies. All you are doing is scuffing to help the next coat adhere. And you need not have done that had you applied all but the last coat at the same time but 2-8 hours apart depending upon how thick the coats were. And with wipe on, they aren't going to be very thick. FWIW, whenever I clear coat I don't sand between coats (unless there is something horrid like a bristle, gob of sawdust, etc. and those I generally shave off with a chisel or razor blade). With lacquer/shellac there is no point in doing so; with poly, no need if you recoat soon enough; maybe with alkyd, been so long since I used it I don't recall. Now, for the last coat with whatever I do sand, getting the surface to the point I want it, and then apply a very thin last coat. The main reasons I use 0000 steel wool (when I use it)are to kill shine and/orbecause of irregular surfaces and only on the final coat. Usually followed by paste wax and buffing. |
#12
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Steel Wool vs.Sandpaper
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
... Let the discussion begin! First coat of Minwax Wipe-On Poly, Clear Satin has been applied to poplar. To prepare for the next coat, would you use 0000 steel wool, 400 grit sandpaper or something else? Thanks. Because most of my work is on boats in salt-water environments I wouldn't go near a piece of steel wool. I've been using red 3M abrasive pads between coats of *varnish* for about a million years, to give the coat some tooth and leave a dull surface so that I can tell where I'm leaving holidays during recoating, and to knock off dust flecks and so forth. The exception would be where I had some droops or significant brush marks in a coat, and I'd go with sandpaper in 220 or so to knock down the high spots. If I'm trying to fill the grain, I usually sand between coats so that I can tell how well I'm getting it filled, using 320 or 220. Wipe-on poly applies a lot thinner than the varnish that I ordinarily use, so I'd just use the 3M pads. But over the first coat of wipe-on poly on poplar? I'd just give it a quick wipe with a 3M pad to knock down the raised grain and go for it. Maybe after the third coat or so I'd start thinking about a bit of sandpaper to level it. Tom |
#13
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Steel Wool vs.Sandpaper
DerbyDad03 wrote:
Neither of the Borgs carry that exact pad, but Lowes carries something close. I'm trying to get this done by the end of the week so I can move on to other stuff, so I may just go with a couple of the Lowes pads for now. Worst case is if I don't like 'em, I've already got the steel wool and sandpaper. Thanks! http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay?...llow&cId=PDIO1 Should work. I don't know what grit the black stuff is though. The maroon I use is 3M 07447. You can get it at NAPA, Advance Auto, or just about any place that sells automotive refinishing supplies. I suspect the black will work - it's sold as a product to use between finish coats. -- -Mike- |
#14
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Steel Wool vs.Sandpaper
On 7/30/2015 7:38 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Let the discussion begin! First coat of Minwax Wipe-On Poly, Clear Satin has been applied to poplar. To prepare for the next coat, would you use 0000 steel wool, 400 grit sandpaper or something else? Thanks. Do some varnishes still request this step between coats? I quit doing that around 1990. Steel wool will rust if you use a water based poly and do not get every speck of it off. |
#15
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Steel Wool vs.Sandpaper
On Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 4:14:59 PM UTC-7, Leon wrote:
Steel wool will rust if you use a water based poly and do not get every speck of it off. Before plastic scrub pads, bronze wool was the solution to that. It's still available, as a marine specialty item. |
#16
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Steel Wool vs.Sandpaper
On Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 5:36:09 PM UTC-4, Mike Marlow wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote: Neither of the Borgs carry that exact pad, but Lowes carries something close. I'm trying to get this done by the end of the week so I can move on to other stuff, so I may just go with a couple of the Lowes pads for now. Worst case is if I don't like 'em, I've already got the steel wool and sandpaper. Thanks! http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay?...llow&cId=PDIO1 Should work. I don't know what grit the black stuff is though. The maroon I use is 3M 07447. You can get it at NAPA, Advance Auto, or just about any place that sells automotive refinishing supplies. I suspect the black will work - it's sold as a product to use between finish coats. -- While they do look black on some monitors, they are actually grey. I tried them and they made quick work of knocking down the grain, even on the routed edges and end grain. Very little dust. Second coat of poly is drying, final coat goes on tomorrow night, and then I can move on to the next project: $10 cross bars for my roof rack instead of $160 OEM. Flatten the ends of EMT conduit so it fits into the track. Use a square nuts in the tracks and Allen head cap screws to keep the bars from moving fore and aft. OK, $15 if I decide to PlastiDip them black. That's all I need to hold a soft roof top carrier on the rare occasions that I may need to. I may never need to, but I'm preparing for a loop through 3 cities in NYS to move 2 daughters into college apartments. I won't know how much room I'll really need until I'm already on the road, so I'm keeping a 15 Cu Ft soft car top carrier in reserve just in case. Thanks for the advice on the pads. |
#17
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Steel Wool vs.Sandpaper
On Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 4:10:33 PM UTC-4, dadiOH wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote: Let the discussion begin! First coat of Minwax Wipe-On Poly, Clear Satin has been applied to poplar. To prepare for the next coat, would you use 0000 steel wool, 400 grit sandpaper or something else? Regardless of what you use, it need not be that fine; nor do you need to thoroughly sand all the nooks and crannies. All you are doing is scuffing to help the next coat adhere. ....and knocking down the grain raised by the first coat. There definitely was that, especially on the routed edges and end grain of the slats. And you need not have done that had you applied all but the last coat at the same time but 2-8 hours apart depending upon how thick the coats were. And with wipe on, they aren't going to be very thick. That's probably true, but my schedule doesn't allow me to put the second coat on 2-8 hours after the first. I get a few hours in the shop in the evening, so it's typically multiples of 24 hours between coats. FWIW, whenever I clear coat I don't sand between coats (unless there is something horrid like a bristle, gob of sawdust, etc. and those I generally shave off with a chisel or razor blade). With lacquer/shellac there is no point in doing so; with poly, no need if you recoat soon enough; maybe with alkyd, been so long since I used it I don't recall. Now, for the last coat with whatever I do sand, getting the surface to the point I want it, and then apply a very thin last coat. The main reasons I use 0000 steel wool (when I use it)are to kill shine and/orbecause of irregular surfaces and only on the final coat. Usually followed by paste wax and buffing. |
#18
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Steel Wool vs.Sandpaper
Leon wrote:
Do some varnishes still request this step between coats? I quit doing that around 1990. It all depends on how long you wait to recoat. People still adhere to old practices of one coat today, another coat tomorrow. That'll get you into scuffing the surface before applying a second coat. If people paid attention to recoat times specified by manufacturers, then you'd be right - no need to scuff. But... Steel wool will rust if you use a water based poly and do not get every speck of it off. Steel wool sucks! -- -Mike- |
#19
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Steel Wool vs.Sandpaper
DerbyDad03 wrote:
That's all I need to hold a soft roof top carrier on the rare occasions that I may need to. I may never need to, but I'm preparing for a loop through 3 cities in NYS to move 2 daughters into college apartments. I won't know how much room I'll really need until I'm already on the road, so I'm keeping a 15 Cu Ft soft car top carrier in reserve just in case. Where through NYS? If you're passing through or near Syracuse, let's hook up. There's a Dunkin' Donuts or two in these parts... Thanks for the advice on the pads. No problem - that's what I'm here for... -- -Mike- |
#20
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Steel Wool vs.Sandpaper
DerbyDad03 wrote:
That's probably true, but my schedule doesn't allow me to put the second coat on 2-8 hours after the first. I get a few hours in the shop in the evening, so it's typically multiples of 24 hours between coats. Not to worry - under those requirements, you did the right thing. -- -Mike- |
#21
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Steel Wool vs.Sandpaper
whit3rd wrote:
On Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 4:14:59 PM UTC-7, Leon wrote: Steel wool will rust if you use a water based poly and do not get every speck of it off. Before plastic scrub pads, bronze wool was the solution to that. It's still available, as a marine specialty item. Actually I saw the bronze wool at Woodcraft, Luberon brand IIRC. |
#22
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Steel Wool vs.Sandpaper
"Leon" wrote: Actually I saw the bronze wool at Woodcraft, Luberon brand IIRC. -------------------------------------------------------------- Definitely a marine item. West Marine, Defender, and Jamestown Distributors are all stocking chandleries. Must admit that as usual, West Marine is not competitive. Lew |
#23
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Steel Wool vs.Sandpaper
On Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 10:21:43 PM UTC-4, Mike Marlow wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote: That's probably true, but my schedule doesn't allow me to put the second coat on 2-8 hours after the first. I get a few hours in the shop in the evening, so it's typically multiples of 24 hours between coats. Not to worry - under those requirements, you did the right thing. Frankly, I'm a little confused by the "less time, no sanding between coats" method when it comes to WOP. You guys, as well as folks in other forums, say that 2-3 coats of WOP can be applied as soon as the previous coat is "dry to the touch". After that, the common method seems to be to let those coats dry for 24 hours, then lightly sand before doing another 2-3 "dry to the touch" coats. I understand the reason behind this is that 2-3 coats of WOP is roughly equivalent to 1 coat of brush on poly. My first bit of confusion comes from the fact that the Minwax can says to let each coat dry 2-3 hours and then sand with 320 grit. In other words, sand between each coat, even after only 2-3 hours. (More on this later.) My second bit of confusion comes from fact that I'm not sure what "dry to the touch" actually means. Let me explain, because this ties in with my confusion regarding the Minwax instructions. After 2-3 hours (and usually more) I find that the WOP is not what I would call tacky, but it's definitely not completely dry. If I drag my fingers across the surface they, well, they *drag*. It just doesn't feel like anything I would want to sand, per the Minwax instructions. However, is that considered "dry to the touch" in terms of being able to apply the next coat or is too soon? Should I wait until I feel no drag? Can I wait 4-6 hours if that's what it takes for the drag to be gone? 8? In other words, what's the tipping point between "It's OK to apply the next coat" and "Oh crap, now you have to sand". And why does Minwax say to sand between every coat in as little as 2-3 hours when the rest of world says you don't have to/shouldn't? |
#24
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Steel Wool vs.Sandpaper
On Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 10:19:47 PM UTC-4, Mike Marlow wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote: That's all I need to hold a soft roof top carrier on the rare occasions that I may need to. I may never need to, but I'm preparing for a loop through 3 cities in NYS to move 2 daughters into college apartments. I won't know how much room I'll really need until I'm already on the road, so I'm keeping a 15 Cu Ft soft car top carrier in reserve just in case. Where through NYS? If you're passing through or near Syracuse, let's hook up. There's a Dunkin' Donuts or two in these parts... Do you mind if I reply via email? |
#25
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Steel Wool vs.Sandpaper
On 7/30/2015 10:37 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Leon" wrote: Actually I saw the bronze wool at Woodcraft, Luberon brand IIRC. -------------------------------------------------------------- Definitely a marine item. West Marine, Defender, and Jamestown Distributors are all stocking chandleries. Must admit that as usual, West Marine is not competitive. Lew http://www.amazon.com/Homax-Bronze-S.../dp/B000H5QDUO |
#26
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Steel Wool vs.Sandpaper
On 7/30/2015 9:15 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote: Do some varnishes still request this step between coats? I quit doing that around 1990. It all depends on how long you wait to recoat. People still adhere to old practices of one coat today, another coat tomorrow. That'll get you into scuffing the surface before applying a second coat. If people paid attention to recoat times specified by manufacturers, then you'd be right - no need to scuff. But... Well timing and type of varnish. Gel varnishes have never ever, at least all of the brands that I use, required any scuffing between coats. just one of the reasons that I use gel varnishes. Now having said that, on occasion, I will scuff just before the last coat of gel varnish. Steel wool will rust if you use a water based poly and do not get every speck of it off. Steel wool sucks! |
#27
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Steel Wool vs.Sandpaper
DerbyDad03 Wrote in message:
On Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 10:19:47 PM UTC-4, Mike Marlow wrote: DerbyDad03 wrote: That's all I need to hold a soft roof top carrier on the rare occasions that I may need to. I may never need to, but I'm preparing for a loop through 3 cities in NYS to move 2 daughters into college apartments. I won't know how much room I'll really need until I'm already on the road, so I'm keeping a 15 Cu Ft soft car top carrier in reserve just in case. Where through NYS? If you're passing through or near Syracuse, let's hook up. There's a Dunkin' Donuts or two in these parts... Do you mind if I reply via email? Please do. -- -Mike- ----Android NewsGroup Reader---- http://usenet.sinaapp.com/ |
#28
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Steel Wool vs.Sandpaper
On 7/30/2015 10:55 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 10:21:43 PM UTC-4, Mike Marlow wrote: DerbyDad03 wrote: That's probably true, but my schedule doesn't allow me to put the second coat on 2-8 hours after the first. I get a few hours in the shop in the evening, so it's typically multiples of 24 hours between coats. Not to worry - under those requirements, you did the right thing. Frankly, I'm a little confused by the "less time, no sanding between coats" method when it comes to WOP. You guys, as well as folks in other forums, say that 2-3 coats of WOP can be applied as soon as the previous coat is "dry to the touch". After that, the common method seems to be to let those coats dry for 24 hours, then lightly sand before doing another 2-3 "dry to the touch" coats. I understand the reason behind this is that 2-3 coats of WOP is roughly equivalent to 1 coat of brush on poly. My first bit of confusion comes from the fact that the Minwax can says to let each coat dry 2-3 hours and then sand with 320 grit. In other words, sand between each coat, even after only 2-3 hours. (More on this later.) My second bit of confusion comes from fact that I'm not sure what "dry to the touch" actually means. Let me explain, because this ties in with my confusion regarding the Minwax instructions. After 2-3 hours (and usually more) I find that the WOP is not what I would call tacky, but it's definitely not completely dry. If I drag my fingers across the surface they, well, they *drag*. It just doesn't feel like anything I would want to sand, per the Minwax instructions. However, is that considered "dry to the touch" in terms of being able to apply the next coat or is too soon? Should I wait until I feel no drag? Can I wait 4-6 hours if that's what it takes for the drag to be gone? 8? In other words, what's the tipping point between "It's OK to apply the next coat" and "Oh crap, now you have to sand". And why does Minwax say to sand between every coat in as little as 2-3 hours when the rest of world says you don't have to/shouldn't? Dry to touch such that you don't damage the coat or leave a finger print. If the coat has not hardened/cured the next coat will naturally blend and not need the "hook" for the next coat to bind to. |
#29
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Steel Wool vs.Sandpaper
On 7/30/2015 7:38 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Let the discussion begin! First coat of Minwax Wipe-On Poly, Clear Satin has been applied to poplar. To prepare for the next coat, _would you use_ 0000 steel wool, 400 grit sandpaper or something else? Most of the time, nothing. If there is any need whatsoever, a bit of brown paper from a grocery bag works as well as anything IME. -- eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/ KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious) |
#30
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Steel Wool vs.Sandpaper
Swingman wrote:
On 7/30/2015 7:38 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote: Let the discussion begin! First coat of Minwax Wipe-On Poly, Clear Satin has been applied to poplar. To prepare for the next coat, _would you use_ 0000 steel wool, 400 grit sandpaper or something else? Most of the time, nothing. If there is any need whatsoever, a bit of brown paper from a grocery bag works as well as anything IME. I find this entire conversation (as it relates to wipe on poly) very interesting. I would not have expected any poly to take a recoat after 2 or 3 hours, without a scuff. But - that's based on my (lack of) experience in this particular area. Owing to the way I have always applied finishes to wood, I always found myself in the position of applying a second coat a day or two after the first coat, and that has always mandated scuffing the finish to avoid dry drags with the second coat, and to ensure a good tooth in the first coat. Funny how that stuff goes - when I paint a car, I adhere religiously to the specifications for recoat times, as well as for the times to go from base to clear. In its most simple terms, that just means to allow the previous coat to flash before moving forward. I do it in my sleep and don't even think about it. But - these are much different chemical compounds. And I know, for example, that I've got up to about 4 hours on a base coat before I have to worry about scuffing before clear coat. As I said - most likely owing to what I've used in the past, and how I've used it, I just seem to be stuck in this mindset that poly goes on heavy today, gets scuffed tomorrow or the next day, and then goes on heavy again after that. Ain't it just amazing what you can learn here... -- -Mike- |
#31
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Steel Wool vs.Sandpaper
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
: On 7/30/2015 9:15 PM, Mike Marlow wrote: Leon wrote: Do some varnishes still request this step between coats? I quit doing that around 1990. It all depends on how long you wait to recoat. People still adhere to old practices of one coat today, another coat tomorrow. That'll get you into scuffing the surface before applying a second coat. If people paid attention to recoat times specified by manufacturers, then you'd be right - no need to scuff. But... Well timing and type of varnish. Gel varnishes have never ever, at least all of the brands that I use, required any scuffing between coats. just one of the reasons that I use gel varnishes. Now having said that, on occasion, I will scuff just before the last coat of gel varnish. Basically what it depends on is how long it takes for the varnish to cure. That's different from how long it takes for it to dry. Dry means the solvent has evaporated, cured means a chemical reaction has taken place between the varnish molecules. If I'm not mistaken, polyurethanes take 100 hours or more to completely cure. So you should be safe applying a new coat within that time without sanding, it will chemically bond to the coat below. Of course, it likely does vary between varnish types and brands. As Mike says, check the manufacture's instructions (altho those are probably conservative). Incidently, apparently a lot of "poly" varnishes today are partly or mostly acrylic. I have no idea how that affects recoat times. John |
#32
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Steel Wool vs.Sandpaper
On Friday, July 31, 2015 at 10:28:04 AM UTC-4, John McCoy wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in : On 7/30/2015 9:15 PM, Mike Marlow wrote: Leon wrote: Do some varnishes still request this step between coats? I quit doing that around 1990. It all depends on how long you wait to recoat. People still adhere to old practices of one coat today, another coat tomorrow. That'll get you into scuffing the surface before applying a second coat. If people paid attention to recoat times specified by manufacturers, then you'd be right - no need to scuff. But... Well timing and type of varnish. Gel varnishes have never ever, at least all of the brands that I use, required any scuffing between coats. just one of the reasons that I use gel varnishes. Now having said that, on occasion, I will scuff just before the last coat of gel varnish. Basically what it depends on is how long it takes for the varnish to cure. That's different from how long it takes for it to dry. Dry means the solvent has evaporated, cured means a chemical reaction has taken place between the varnish molecules. If I'm not mistaken, polyurethanes take 100 hours or more to completely cure. So you should be safe applying a new coat within that time without sanding, it will chemically bond to the coat below. Of course, it likely does vary between varnish types and brands. As Mike says, check the manufacture's instructions (altho those are probably conservative). I assume by "conservative" that you mean they probably want you to wait longer than is actually necessary. The problem is, the Minwax WOP says to sand it after 2-3 hours. After 2-3 hours, in my experience, the WOP still seems to be too wet/tacky/sticky (pick a term) to sand. 2-3 hours seems - at least to me - to be a far cry from conservative. Incidently, apparently a lot of "poly" varnishes today are partly or mostly acrylic. I have no idea how that affects recoat times. John |
#33
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Steel Wool vs.Sandpaper
On Friday, July 31, 2015 at 9:47:55 AM UTC-4, Swingman wrote:
On 7/30/2015 7:38 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote: Let the discussion begin! First coat of Minwax Wipe-On Poly, Clear Satin has been applied to poplar. To prepare for the next coat, _would you use_ 0000 steel wool, 400 grit sandpaper or something else? Most of the time, nothing. If there is any need whatsoever, a bit of brown paper from a grocery bag works as well as anything IME. I've heard of that method. It's too late for me to try it, but I don't think a paper bag would have knocked down the grain that was raised on the slats after the first coat of WOP. The 3M "between coats" pad did a really good job. I think I'll try the paper bag trick on some scrap pieces to see how it works. I've still got that split slat to play with. ;-) |
#34
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Steel Wool vs.Sandpaper
On 7/31/2015 9:26 AM, John McCoy wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in : On 7/30/2015 9:15 PM, Mike Marlow wrote: Leon wrote: Do some varnishes still request this step between coats? I quit doing that around 1990. It all depends on how long you wait to recoat. People still adhere to old practices of one coat today, another coat tomorrow. That'll get you into scuffing the surface before applying a second coat. If people paid attention to recoat times specified by manufacturers, then you'd be right - no need to scuff. But... Well timing and type of varnish. Gel varnishes have never ever, at least all of the brands that I use, required any scuffing between coats. just one of the reasons that I use gel varnishes. Now having said that, on occasion, I will scuff just before the last coat of gel varnish. Basically what it depends on is how long it takes for the varnish to cure. That's different from how long it takes for it to dry. Dry means the solvent has evaporated, cured means a chemical reaction has taken place between the varnish molecules. I have gone back a year later and touched up gel varnishes with no problems. Gel varnishes work differently that typical liquid varnishes. |
#35
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Steel Wool vs.Sandpaper
On 7/31/2015 10:46 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, July 31, 2015 at 10:28:04 AM UTC-4, John McCoy wrote: Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in : On 7/30/2015 9:15 PM, Mike Marlow wrote: Leon wrote: Do some varnishes still request this step between coats? I quit doing that around 1990. It all depends on how long you wait to recoat. People still adhere to old practices of one coat today, another coat tomorrow. That'll get you into scuffing the surface before applying a second coat. If people paid attention to recoat times specified by manufacturers, then you'd be right - no need to scuff. But... Well timing and type of varnish. Gel varnishes have never ever, at least all of the brands that I use, required any scuffing between coats. just one of the reasons that I use gel varnishes. Now having said that, on occasion, I will scuff just before the last coat of gel varnish. Basically what it depends on is how long it takes for the varnish to cure. That's different from how long it takes for it to dry. Dry means the solvent has evaporated, cured means a chemical reaction has taken place between the varnish molecules. If I'm not mistaken, polyurethanes take 100 hours or more to completely cure. So you should be safe applying a new coat within that time without sanding, it will chemically bond to the coat below. Of course, it likely does vary between varnish types and brands. As Mike says, check the manufacture's instructions (altho those are probably conservative). I assume by "conservative" that you mean they probably want you to wait longer than is actually necessary. The problem is, the Minwax WOP says to sand it after 2-3 hours. After 2-3 hours, in my experience, the WOP still seems to be too wet/tacky/sticky (pick a term) to sand. 2-3 hours seems - at least to me - to be a far cry from conservative. Temperature and humidity will have a lot to do with how fast the finish dries. If unsure varnish a scrap and see if 2~3 hours is too soon to sand. In any case if the surface is still sticky most sand paper is going to gum up very quickly. Experimenting will tell you a lot. |
#36
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Steel Wool vs.Sandpaper
On 7/31/2015 9:21 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Swingman wrote: On 7/30/2015 7:38 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote: Let the discussion begin! First coat of Minwax Wipe-On Poly, Clear Satin has been applied to poplar. To prepare for the next coat, _would you use_ 0000 steel wool, 400 grit sandpaper or something else? Most of the time, nothing. If there is any need whatsoever, a bit of brown paper from a grocery bag works as well as anything IME. I find this entire conversation (as it relates to wipe on poly) very interesting. I would not have expected any poly to take a recoat after 2 or 3 hours, without a scuff. But - that's based on my (lack of) experience in this particular area. Owing to the way I have always applied finishes to wood, I always found myself in the position of applying a second coat a day or two after the first coat, and that has always mandated scuffing the finish to avoid dry drags with the second coat, and to ensure a good tooth in the first coat. Funny how that stuff goes - when I paint a car, I adhere religiously to the specifications for recoat times, as well as for the times to go from base to clear. In its most simple terms, that just means to allow the previous coat to flash before moving forward. I do it in my sleep and don't even think about it. But - these are much different chemical compounds. And I know, for example, that I've got up to about 4 hours on a base coat before I have to worry about scuffing before clear coat. As I said - most likely owing to what I've used in the past, and how I've used it, I just seem to be stuck in this mindset that poly goes on heavy today, gets scuffed tomorrow or the next day, and then goes on heavy again after that. Ain't it just amazing what you can learn here... You should really look at Old Masters Gel varnish. Gels are so hassle free that you can actually apply to work on a dusty work surface. The only trick is to apply, and Immediately wipe off the excess, and then again immediately give a lite buffing. And at that moment you can almost toss a hand full of saw dust on it with no worries. When dry to touch app allpy the next coat 5 hours later or 5 weeks later, with no sanding. I have been using gel varnishes almost exclusively since 1989. Oddly however they only come in a semigloss/satin finish. |
#37
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Steel Wool vs.Sandpaper
On 7/31/2015 10:52 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, July 31, 2015 at 9:47:55 AM UTC-4, Swingman wrote: On 7/30/2015 7:38 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote: Let the discussion begin! First coat of Minwax Wipe-On Poly, Clear Satin has been applied to poplar. To prepare for the next coat, _would you use_ 0000 steel wool, 400 grit sandpaper or something else? Most of the time, nothing. If there is any need whatsoever, a bit of brown paper from a grocery bag works as well as anything IME. I've heard of that method. It's too late for me to try it, but I don't think a paper bag would have knocked down the grain that was raised on the slats after the first coat of WOP. The 3M "between coats" pad did a really good job. I think I'll try the paper bag trick on some scrap pieces to see how it works. I've still got that split slat to play with. ;-) The bag does not work on splinters. ;~) But those easy to knock down rough spots, that you can feel, disappear and the longer you wait the better, several days. Paper is like a very fine grit sand paper that is typically used to polish. I typically wrap a piece of used printer paper around a block of wood and lightly rub the surface. |
#38
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Steel Wool vs.Sandpaper
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
: I have gone back a year later and touched up gel varnishes with no problems. Gel varnishes work differently that typical liquid varnishes. Hmmm, I wouldn't count on that always working. Polyurethane is polyurethane, regardless of what the carrier is; once it's cured you never really know how well another coat will stick. Incidently, I googled looking for info on what exactly is different between gel varnish and regular. Unfortunately it seems the main use of gel varnish is nail polish, and pretty much all Google would return (other than places selling Bartley's) was nail polish info. John |
#39
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Steel Wool vs.Sandpaper
DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, July 31, 2015 at 10:28:04 AM UTC-4, John McCoy wrote: If I'm not mistaken, polyurethanes take 100 hours or more to completely cure. So you should be safe applying a new coat within that time without sanding, it will chemically bond to the coat below. Of course, it likely does vary between varnish types and brands. As Mike says, check the manufacture's instructions (altho those are probably conservative). I assume by "conservative" that you mean they probably want you to wait longer than is actually necessary. The problem is, the Minwax WOP says to sand it after 2-3 hours. After 2-3 hours, in my experience, the WOP still seems to be too wet/tacky/sticky (pick a term) to sand. 2-3 hours seems - at least to me - to be a far cry from conservative. You've never said whether you are using oil or water base varnish but still sticky after 2-3 hours would indicate oil, right? If so I don't see anything wrong, wait until it isn't sticky to sand if you just gotta sand and that is going to be more that 2-3 hours. But if you ARE going to sand, I'd wait longer - at least 24 hours - and if you are after a baby butt smooth surface, wait two weeks to sand before the last coat...it takes at least that long for oil poly to cure; if you sand and recoat before it is totally cured, the thicker layer left in the pores will continue to cure and shrink and there goes the flawless surface. __________________________ FWIW, these are my experience with poly... OIL The only thing I've used oil poly on for years is my Saltillo tile floor (I use lacquer or oil on furniture). I have 4000+ sq.ft. of it and all except baseboards and trim (they are Saltillo too) has 3-4 (I try for four) coats. It is generally applied ratherheavily...I pour out a line about 5-6' wide and start pulling it around with a mohair applicator. As soon as I can walk on it barefoot without sticking, I apply the next coat; that time is never less that 3 hours, rarely much more that 4. WATER I have used it but don't like it. Things covered by it look dull and it doesn't wear nearly as well as the oil base. I use it to keep a finish as light as possible or (sometimes) to top coat acrylic "enamel" so stuff doesn't stick to it. I did use it as an after thought on an oak dining table; originally, I used BLO but some months later decided I wanted somethng more durable so wiped on a few coats of water poly. There, it looks OK because the oil provided color to the wood. When I wipe it on, one coat follows another in an hour or less. ________________ Apropos to what John said about poly being a mix of poly and acrylic, I believe that is correct for water base but IIRC the oil base is a mix of poly and alkyd. |
#40
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Steel Wool vs.Sandpaper
On 7/31/2015 12:30 PM, John McCoy wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in : I have gone back a year later and touched up gel varnishes with no problems. Gel varnishes work differently that typical liquid varnishes. Hmmm, I wouldn't count on that always working. Polyurethane is polyurethane, regardless of what the carrier is; once it's cured you never really know how well another coat will stick. As I have stated this does work with no issues, off and on for the past 25 years with an average usage of a gallon per year. Incidently, I googled looking for info on what exactly is different between gel varnish and regular. Unfortunately it seems the main use of gel varnish is nail polish, and pretty much all Google would return (other than places selling Bartley's) was nail polish info. John Try looking at Old Masters, General Finishes, Miniwax, Lawrence McFadden, and those are only the brands that I have used. LMcF bought out Bartleys, and then went out of business, and now Bartleys sells the product again, and LMcF has been purchased by another company. |
Reply |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Forum | |||
Poly / sanding / steel wool | Woodworking | |||
So talk to me about steel wool and wax... | Woodworking | |||
Steel wool | UK diy | |||
steel wool # = sandpaper grit? | Woodworking | |||
0000 steel wool = what grade sandpaper? | Woodworking |