I bought a can of General Finishes "Candelite" Gel Stain. There was a
sample, on oak, in the store. I'm using red oak.

I applied the stain to a test piece. The color - BEFORE wiping off the
"excess" - looked something like the sample, as I remember it anyway.
(the can has a small "artist's rendering of the color) After wiping?
Well, that was quite different. "Washed out" is the best way to describe
it.

I made another test, rubbing MORE with the application rag, waiting a
little longer (maybe a minute and a half), and then wiping off GENTLY.
This produced somewhat more color, but still nothing like what was
advertised.

I have come to understand that the Gel "Stain" and Gel "Topcoat" are
actually the same substance; different only in that one has colorant and
the other does not. I decided to try another coat of Gel Stain. (I
waited a couple of days in-between)

The result? More color, but still not like the sample. I tried a third
coat. With the third coat, it is beginning to look like the sample
color. Is this what their "sample" is supposed to represent, the color
after several coats?

More importantly, if the "stain" and "topcoat" are both some sort of
poly varnish, does this mean that coats of stain "count" as coats of
varnish? Meaning, if 4 coats of gel varnish were recommended for good
protection, could I do 2 of stain and 2 of topcoat for example? Or even
3 stain and 1 topcoat? Or is there a certain minimum number of clear
coats needed, say two?

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On 9/9/2014 7:15 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:
The result? More color, but still not like the sample. I tried a third
coat. With the third coat, it is beginning to look like the sample
color. Is this what their "sample" is supposed to represent, the color
after several coats?

What was the final grit used when sanding?

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On 9/9/2014 7:15 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:
I bought a can of General Finishes "Candelite" Gel Stain. There was a
sample, on oak, in the store. I'm using red oak.

I applied the stain to a test piece. The color - BEFORE wiping off the
"excess" - looked something like the sample, as I remember it anyway.
(the can has a small "artist's rendering of the color) After wiping?
Well, that was quite different. "Washed out" is the best way to describe
it.

I made another test, rubbing MORE with the application rag, waiting a
little longer (maybe a minute and a half), and then wiping off GENTLY.
This produced somewhat more color, but still nothing like what was
advertised.

Generally speaking all stains should be thoroughly wiped off when apply
by brush or rag. If you want darker let the coats thoroughly dry,
preferably over night. BE SURE TO THOROUGHLY STIR before using.

AND as Swingman commented the final sanding grit will be important as to
how dark the stain ends up. The finer the sanding grit the less the
stain will darken. I never go past 180 when staining. Test a piece
with a coarser grit for the final sanding.


I have come to understand that the Gel "Stain" and Gel "Topcoat" are
actually the same substance; different only in that one has colorant and
the other does not. I decided to try another coat of Gel Stain. (I
waited a couple of days in-between)

No not the same but many gel stains do have a bit of finish/varnish.
Gel varnishes will protect the stain finish.



The result? More color, but still not like the sample. I tried a third
coat. With the third coat, it is beginning to look like the sample
color. Is this what their "sample" is supposed to represent, the color
after several coats?

I have found that General Finishes colors are not created equally. I
have used darker General Finishes gel stains that ended up lighter than
lighter colors of the same product.

Again be sure to thoroughly mix the gel stain, if it is liquidly on top
it is not likely to cover as advertised.



More importantly, if the "stain" and "topcoat" are both some sort of
poly varnish, does this mean that coats of stain "count" as coats of
varnish?

No

Meaning, if 4 coats of gel varnish were recommended for good
protection, could I do 2 of stain and 2 of topcoat for example? Or even
3 stain and 1 topcoat? Or is there a certain minimum number of clear
coats needed, say two?

You want to protect the stain finish, doing so will also naturally
protect the wood. The Gel varnish is going to give the surface a more
protected finish but mostly will give a consistent sheen to the surface.
Most gel varnishes go on so thinly that you probably will never get
the same thickness of protection as you will with a liquid varnish.
Basically gel varnishes protect against something staining the finish if
caught quickly enough and NOT from maring or scratching through to the
wood. You still need to take care of what you built.

One last thing, air circulation can be a determent to applying many
stains or varnishes, especially gel varnishes. If the varnish or stain
is drying too fast, before wiping off the excess, turn off the fan if
working with one. Otherwise work smaller areas.


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On 9/9/2014 8:41 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 9/9/2014 7:15 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:
The result? More color, but still not like the sample. I tried a third
coat. With the third coat, it is beginning to look like the sample
color. Is this what their "sample" is supposed to represent, the color
after several coats?

What was the final grit used when sanding?

I tried to post this before but must have sent it by email instead. I'm
pretty sure I sanded the sample pieces to 180, the same grit I sanded to
on the project parts.

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On 9/10/2014 1:23 AM, Leon wrote:
Again be sure to thoroughly mix the gel stain, if it is liquidly on top
it is not likely to cover as advertised.

I didn't do this. It seemed like a "gel" on top, not "liquidy", but I
guess it's worth stirring it to see if it makes a difference.

It looks like I can get a color I like with 3 coats of stain, but I'd be
much happier with fewer steps, especially as the project has lots of
nooks and crannies.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguar...57644207411490

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"Greg Guarino" wrote in message


It looks like I can get a color I like with 3 coats of stain, but I'd be
much happier with fewer steps, especially as the project has lots of
nooks and crannies.

FWIW, stain isn't supposed to "coat", it is supposed to stain; i.e, be
absorbed (superficially) into the wood...inevitably, it also catches into
any surface imperfections be they wood grain or scratches. All of which
means that the rougher the surface the darker the color.

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On Wednesday, September 10, 2014 12:23:07 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

Generally speaking all stains should be thoroughly wiped off when apply

by brush or rag. If you want darker let the coats thoroughly dry,

preferably over night. BE SURE TO THOROUGHLY STIR before using.

That is something most folks don't do, and that is to stir the gel stains before using. I found that one out the hard way when using a dark color that started out looking like chocolate pudding in the can, then gradually went to a dark chocolate candy bar color. Usually I only have to screw myself once and I am "good to go" after that, and in this case I never forgot all the extra work that caused me.

As far as gel stains having any protective elements in them, maybe some do. I use Old Master's gels exclusively as they are very consistent and predictable, and they are the only gels I could use successfully when staining fiberglass entry doors. Nothing else on the market (this was a few years ago) would penetrate the gel coat surface and hold on when finishing. The Old Master's rep (remember when we had factory trained experts?) told me that it was due to the actual size of their coloring particulates and resin matrix used to suspend the particles. I asked it was some kind of protective coating due to its plastic feel when dry, and he gave and adamant NO. Apparently some had mistaken their newly wiped coloring for being a colored or tinted finishing product and there had been quite a stir over that.

Keep in mind I am only referencing Old Master's gel stain.


Most gel varnishes go on so thinly that you probably will never get

the same thickness of protection as you will with a liquid varnish.

Basically gel varnishes protect against something staining the finish if

caught quickly enough and NOT from maring or scratching through to the

wood. You still need to take care of what you built.

Personally, I look at wipe on varnishes and poly as "adult" finishes. I like the thin finish they leave that shows off the wood itself much more than a nice thick coat of some clear coat that is designed to protect against sun, water/liquids, chemicals and detergents, and the abrasion of everyday use. They are great for bookcases, adult furniture, a low use table like a lamp table, a hutch or buffet, etc. It does not stand up to family use, bachelor use, etc., as it has little water resistance, almost no chemical resistance, little abrasion resistance, and ZERO ultra violet ray resistance.

When I was more involved with the woodworking community here in town, I tried to help the guys understand when to use and when not to use gel top coats. I had a difficult time as they all loved the ease of application that didn't require any cleanup, or shop prep to keep the dust down. Who doesn't?

But they were addicted to Watco. Our local Woodcraft was their enabler on that. The prescribed Watco for everything from jewelry boxes (good!) to table tops (not so much...) and gleefully grabbed a can whenever asked for a recommendation. They weren't that happy when they saw what a spill of orange juice, with all its acidic glory did to the top of they were distracted and didn't get it cleaned up immediately.

Three good coats of Watch properly applied will give you about 1/2 to 3/4 of one millimeter of final dried finish. Finish manufacturers and applicators accept the industry standard on a horizontal surface to be 2 to 3 millimeters! I know that is what I shoot for, and that is why it takes two coats brushed or padded, and then maybe three when sprayed to get to 3mm. This is why when learning proper spray and technique you learn to use this:

http://www.binks.com/resources/tip-o...hickness-gauge

However, it also translates well to hand applied finishes (except gels, which are too thin to accurately measure). These are cheap to buy and provide an excellent way to ensure that you are applying enough material to a surface to follow the manufacturer's recommendations. Since a lot of folks don't know how much to apply, much less how much they are applying, I always recommended to the guys learning good finishing techniques to use these so they could recognize different thicknesses of coats. A nice tutorial on how to use the gauge:

http://www.geionline.com/wet-film-gauge

As always, just my 0.02.

Robert

On 9/10/2014 8:30 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
On 9/10/2014 1:23 AM, Leon wrote:
Again be sure to thoroughly mix the gel stain, if it is liquidly on top
it is not likely to cover as advertised.

I didn't do this. It seemed like a "gel" on top, not "liquidy", but I
guess it's worth stirring it to see if it makes a difference.

It looks like I can get a color I like with 3 coats of stain, but I'd be
much happier with fewer steps, especially as the project has lots of
nooks and crannies.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguar...57644207411490

Yeah have fun with that. ;~) Hind sight, you have a bunch of dowels
holding this together, I would have stained everything before glue up.
With all the dowels I would not worry about stain and or the finish
getting on contact glue surfaces. I would have varnished the inner
pieces too before glue up.
Generally speaking I try to stain and varnish any pieces with inside
corners and or those that would be difficult to get to before assembly.

Keep us posted with pics.!







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On 9/10/2014 12:45 PM, Leon wrote:

Let me add a comma... ;~)



Generally speaking I try to stain and varnish any pieces with inside
corners and or those that would be difficult to get to, before assembly.
http://www.avast.com

On 9/10/2014 1:56 PM, Leon wrote:
Generally speaking I try to stain and varnish any pieces with inside
corners and or those that would be difficult to get to, before assembly.

Me too. I like that I don't have to worry too much about glue
squeeze-out. But this time I decided it would be too much trouble to
mask all of the joint surfaces. That was *before* I was advised that the
glue on the dowels would be strong enough by itself.

Live and learn.


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On 9/10/2014 2:18 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:
On 9/10/2014 1:56 PM, Leon wrote:
Generally speaking I try to stain and varnish any pieces with inside
corners and or those that would be difficult to get to, before assembly.

Me too. I like that I don't have to worry too much about glue
squeeze-out. But this time I decided it would be too much trouble to
mask all of the joint surfaces. That was *before* I was advised that the
glue on the dowels would be strong enough by itself.

Live and learn.

I should add that the only parts that are already glued up are the
"ladders". I have masked the glue-joint areas for the remaining pieces
in preparation for prefinishing them, should I ever settle on a method,
that is.

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On 9/10/2014 1:18 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:
On 9/10/2014 1:56 PM, Leon wrote:
Generally speaking I try to stain and varnish any pieces with inside
corners and or those that would be difficult to get to, before assembly.

Me too. I like that I don't have to worry too much about glue
squeeze-out. But this time I decided it would be too much trouble to
mask all of the joint surfaces. That was *before* I was advised that the
glue on the dowels would be strong enough by itself.

Live and learn.


And as you become more experienced you have less and less squeeze out.
You are doing great Greg! Keep up the good work. ;~)





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wrote in message


Three good coats of Watch properly applied will give you about 1/2 to
3/4
of one millimeter of final dried finish. Finish manufacturers and
applicators accept the industry standard on a horizontal surface to be 2
to 3 millimeters! I know that is what I shoot for, and that is why it
takes two coats brushed or padded, and then maybe three when sprayed to
get to 3mm.


Robert, something does not compute. There are 25.4mm in an inch. Three
millimeters wul be a knat's whisker less than 1/8". Maybe you meant mils?



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____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

I applied the stain to a test piece. The color - BEFORE wiping off the
"excess" - looked something like the sample, as I remember it anyway.
(the can has a small "artist's rendering of the color) After wiping?
Well, that was quite different. "Washed out" is the best way to describe
it.

I made another test, rubbing MORE with the application rag, waiting a
little longer (maybe a minute and a half), and then wiping off GENTLY.
This produced somewhat more color, but still nothing like what was
advertised.

I suggest checking out Charles Neill's blotch control ...

https://charlesneilwoodworking.3dcar...trol_p_47.html

It also allows you to apply a dye or stain strongly and evenly.

Google this product and see all the positive reviews.

I have no financial interest ,,,blah,blah,blah.

On Wednesday, September 10, 2014 6:23:27 PM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:

Robert, something does not compute. There are 25.4mm in an inch. Three

millimeters wul be a knat's whisker less than 1/8". Maybe you meant mils?


YES! That is exactly what I meant, but somewhere between brain and fingers there was a disconnect.

Thanks for he correction!

Robert

On 9/10/2014 7:23 PM, dadiOH wrote:
wrote in message


Three good coats of Watch properly applied will give you about 1/2 to 3/4
of one millimeter of final dried finish. Finish manufacturers and
applicators accept the industry standard on a horizontal surface to be 2
to 3 millimeters! I know that is what I shoot for, and that is why it
takes two coats brushed or padded, and then maybe three when sprayed to
get to 3mm.


Robert, something does not compute. There are 25.4mm in an inch. Three
millimeters wul be a knat's whisker less than 1/8". Maybe you meant mils?



Hey, you can never have too much protection.

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wrote in message

On Wednesday, September 10, 2014 6:23:27 PM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:

Robert, something does not compute. There are 25.4mm in an inch.
Three

millimeters wul be a knat's whisker less than 1/8". Maybe you meant
mils?


YES! That is exactly what I meant, but somewhere between brain and
fingers there was a disconnect.

I dig...sort of like "wul" for would and "knat" for gnat. Typing is not
my long suite.



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On 2014-09-11, dadiOH wrote:

millimeters wul be a knat's whisker less than 1/8". Maybe you meant
mils?

YES! That is exactly what I meant, but somewhere between brain and
fingers there was a disconnect.

I dig...sort of like "wul" for would and "knat" for gnat. Typing is not
my long suite.

And "suite" for "suit"?

[Sorry, couldn't resist.]

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"Grant Edwards" wrote in message

On 2014-09-11, dadiOH wrote:

millimeters wul be a knat's whisker less than 1/8". Maybe you
meant
mils?

YES! That is exactly what I meant, but somewhere between brain and
fingers there was a disconnect.

I dig...sort of like "wul" for would and "knat" for gnat. Typing is
not
my long suite.

And "suite" for "suit"?

[Sorry, couldn't resist.]

Stupid bloody keys...

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____________________________

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Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
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On Thursday, September 11, 2014 12:41:12 PM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:



Stupid bloody keys...



AHAH! I knew all along it wasn't us! ;^)

Robert

"dadiOH" wrote in :


Stupid bloody keys...


Maybe you should clean them so you can see the letters. :-)

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

On Friday, September 12, 2014 12:02:56 PM UTC-5, wrote:

Maybe you should clean them so you can see the letters. :-)

If dadiOH is like me, sometimes the KEYS are simply in the wrong place. I will be addressing this with my keyboard when I get a chance. Sadly, it might do no good as they could all be moved again, with me being the last to know!

Robert

On 9/12/2014 2:17 PM, wrote:
On Friday, September 12, 2014 12:02:56 PM UTC-5, wrote:

Maybe you should clean them so you can see the letters. :-)

If dadiOH is like me, sometimes the KEYS are simply in the wrong place. I will be addressing this with my keyboard when I get a chance. Sadly, it might do no good as they could all be moved again, with me being the last to know!

Robert



The problem with these keyboards, made in China, is that they don't
understand goot English not the least Texan. ;~)