Awl --

I have a old DoAll DBW-1 blade welder (10465106), and for the life of me, I
can't weld 1/2" blades for my 4x6 saws.
There seems to be a fundamental problem between the spring tension that
draws the "holding jaws" together, and the timing piston that stops the
current (basedon blade width).

In the mechanism that I see, the stronger the spring tension (for a wider
blade), the *shorter* the weld time...!!
If you have taken one apart, you'll see exactly how this works.
But this seems counter-intuitive: the wider the blade, the more collapsing
spring presure you want, AND the longer the weld time.... it would seem to
me.

This mechanism seems so out of kilter, when I set the blade width knob for
1/2" (or max width), the weld time is ZERO!! Clearly DAT can't be!!

So what I did was jump out this timer contact, so that the operator can
control the weld time by holding down the weld *lever*. And boyoboy, you
sure cain't hold it down for long!! Mebbe a cupla "blips"....

I also was able to switch xsformer primaries, for a lower welding current,
since the welder is rated at 220, and I"m operating at 240. I also
"supplemented" the spring pressure with insulated channelocks, to get more
of a collapse upon heating.

I basically get two results: an instantly breakable weld, or a totally
fried blade, resulting in about 1/8" of the blade being burned away.
Typically, if the blade did weld, the flash would appear on only one side,
instead of symmetrically on both sides. And ergo a very easy break.

The annealing works fine, on the welds that do take, fragile as they are.

Many many moons ago, when I had access to a university machine shop, I used
their DoAll blade welder, very similar to mine, and it worked flawlessly, a
no-brainer. I welded dozens and dozens of blades, without failure.

I also have a Grob blade welder, which is useless -- inneresting, but
useless -- afaict....

So am I basically too far out of my element, screwing around with these for
naught? Can I get it fixed? Is it worth getting fixed? Buy an HF
cheapie?? If I go ebay, how do I know it will work?

I also borrowed a DBW-15 (iirc), a 1" max blade welder, a big sob. There
was sumpn wrong with the alignment block, so that even tho I could finagle a
decent blade weld (nothing like the old days, tho), the g-d blade would not
be welded in a plane..... and would beat the **** out of the saw
pulleys/blade guides, and thus prematurely break.

I have some innersting stats, tho, if anyone is innerested.
Weld current seems to vary between 90 amps and 140 amps, depending on the
primary wired in. Anneal current is about 60 A. And strangely, altho the
unit is rated at 8 kV-A, the primary draw I measured was only 1 amp!!!! Ie,
really only 240 V-A, not 8,000 V-A!!! BUT, the plate does say "220 V, 30
A", which calcs out to 6,600 V-A, at least in the neighbohood of 8 kV-A.
Also, the input wire is incredibly small, 16 ga *at best*, certainly
consistent with 240 V-A, so where do they get 8,000 kV-A from ??

The Grob works a bit differently, really weird, and has switchable primaries
from the front, for 3 different welding currents: about 75 A (also used for
annealing), 130 A, and 170 amps.... talk about fried blades. But what a
coccamammy system.... I'l be scrapping it, unless someone wants it.

So does anyone have some advice?? Mebbe I should learn to silver solder my
blades?? I hear people do that effectively.
I just can't believe I've had all this bad luck, after having welded so many
blades flawlessly, back when.
Could it be cheap blades, cheap alloy??

I'm at a loss over here.
What I might do is visit some local machine shops (if there are any left,
it's been a while), and ask them to give a sucka a break, and let me try
their blade welder, if in fact they do their own blade welding.
Goodgawd.....

Appreciate any/all input.
--
EA

"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
Awl --

I have a old DoAll DBW-1 blade welder (10465106), and for the life of me,
I can't weld 1/2" blades for my 4x6 saws.
There seems to be a fundamental problem between the spring tension that
draws the "holding jaws" together, and the timing piston that stops the
current (basedon blade width).

In the mechanism that I see, the stronger the spring tension (for a wider
blade), the *shorter* the weld time...!!
If you have taken one apart, you'll see exactly how this works.
But this seems counter-intuitive: the wider the blade, the more
collapsing spring presure you want, AND the longer the weld time.... it
would seem to me.

This mechanism seems so out of kilter, when I set the blade width knob for
1/2" (or max width), the weld time is ZERO!! Clearly DAT can't be!!

So what I did was jump out this timer contact, so that the operator can
control the weld time by holding down the weld *lever*. And boyoboy, you
sure cain't hold it down for long!! Mebbe a cupla "blips"....

I also was able to switch xsformer primaries, for a lower welding current,
since the welder is rated at 220, and I"m operating at 240. I also
"supplemented" the spring pressure with insulated channelocks, to get more
of a collapse upon heating.

I basically get two results: an instantly breakable weld, or a totally
fried blade, resulting in about 1/8" of the blade being burned away.
Typically, if the blade did weld, the flash would appear on only one side,
instead of symmetrically on both sides. And ergo a very easy break.

The annealing works fine, on the welds that do take, fragile as they are.

Many many moons ago, when I had access to a university machine shop, I
used their DoAll blade welder, very similar to mine, and it worked
flawlessly, a no-brainer. I welded dozens and dozens of blades, without
failure.

I also have a Grob blade welder, which is useless -- inneresting, but
useless -- afaict....

So am I basically too far out of my element, screwing around with these
for naught? Can I get it fixed? Is it worth getting fixed? Buy an HF
cheapie?? If I go ebay, how do I know it will work?

I also borrowed a DBW-15 (iirc), a 1" max blade welder, a big sob. There
was sumpn wrong with the alignment block, so that even tho I could finagle
a decent blade weld (nothing like the old days, tho), the g-d blade would
not be welded in a plane..... and would beat the **** out of the saw
pulleys/blade guides, and thus prematurely break.

I have some innersting stats, tho, if anyone is innerested.
Weld current seems to vary between 90 amps and 140 amps, depending on the
primary wired in. Anneal current is about 60 A. And strangely, altho the
unit is rated at 8 kV-A, the primary draw I measured was only 1 amp!!!!
Ie, really only 240 V-A, not 8,000 V-A!!! BUT, the plate does say "220
V, 30 A", which calcs out to 6,600 V-A, at least in the neighbohood of 8
kV-A. Also, the input wire is incredibly small, 16 ga *at best*, certainly
consistent with 240 V-A, so where do they get 8,000 kV-A from ??

The Grob works a bit differently, really weird, and has switchable
primaries from the front, for 3 different welding currents: about 75 A
(also used for annealing), 130 A, and 170 amps.... talk about fried
blades. But what a coccamammy system.... I'l be scrapping it, unless
someone wants it.

So does anyone have some advice?? Mebbe I should learn to silver solder
my blades?? I hear people do that effectively.
I just can't believe I've had all this bad luck, after having welded so
many blades flawlessly, back when.
Could it be cheap blades, cheap alloy??

I'm at a loss over here.
What I might do is visit some local machine shops (if there are any left,
it's been a while), and ask them to give a sucka a break, and let me try
their blade welder, if in fact they do their own blade welding.
Goodgawd.....

Appreciate any/all input.


You have to anneal the blade after welding it either by giving it a series
of short bursts further and further apart in time or by using a torch and
slowly backing it away from the blade.

"PrecisionmachinisT" wrote in message
newscudnWvqqNsUg13NnZ2dnUVZ_sydnZ2d@scnresearch. com...

"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
Awl --

I have a old DoAll DBW-1 blade welder (10465106), and for the life of me,
I can't weld 1/2" blades for my 4x6 saws.
There seems to be a fundamental problem between the spring tension that
draws the "holding jaws" together, and the timing piston that stops the
current (basedon blade width).

In the mechanism that I see, the stronger the spring tension (for a wider
blade), the *shorter* the weld time...!!
If you have taken one apart, you'll see exactly how this works.
But this seems counter-intuitive: the wider the blade, the more
collapsing spring presure you want, AND the longer the weld time.... it
would seem to me.

This mechanism seems so out of kilter, when I set the blade width knob
for 1/2" (or max width), the weld time is ZERO!! Clearly DAT can't be!!

So what I did was jump out this timer contact, so that the operator can
control the weld time by holding down the weld *lever*. And boyoboy, you
sure cain't hold it down for long!! Mebbe a cupla "blips"....

I also was able to switch xsformer primaries, for a lower welding
current, since the welder is rated at 220, and I"m operating at 240. I
also "supplemented" the spring pressure with insulated channelocks, to
get more of a collapse upon heating.

I basically get two results: an instantly breakable weld, or a totally
fried blade, resulting in about 1/8" of the blade being burned away.
Typically, if the blade did weld, the flash would appear on only one
side, instead of symmetrically on both sides. And ergo a very easy
break.

The annealing works fine, on the welds that do take, fragile as they are.

Many many moons ago, when I had access to a university machine shop, I
used their DoAll blade welder, very similar to mine, and it worked
flawlessly, a no-brainer. I welded dozens and dozens of blades, without
failure.

I also have a Grob blade welder, which is useless -- inneresting, but
useless -- afaict....

So am I basically too far out of my element, screwing around with these
for naught? Can I get it fixed? Is it worth getting fixed? Buy an HF
cheapie?? If I go ebay, how do I know it will work?

I also borrowed a DBW-15 (iirc), a 1" max blade welder, a big sob. There
was sumpn wrong with the alignment block, so that even tho I could
finagle a decent blade weld (nothing like the old days, tho), the g-d
blade would not be welded in a plane..... and would beat the **** out of
the saw pulleys/blade guides, and thus prematurely break.

I have some innersting stats, tho, if anyone is innerested.
Weld current seems to vary between 90 amps and 140 amps, depending on
the primary wired in. Anneal current is about 60 A. And strangely,
altho the unit is rated at 8 kV-A, the primary draw I measured was only 1
amp!!!! Ie, really only 240 V-A, not 8,000 V-A!!! BUT, the plate does
say "220 V, 30 A", which calcs out to 6,600 V-A, at least in the
neighbohood of 8 kV-A. Also, the input wire is incredibly small, 16 ga
*at best*, certainly consistent with 240 V-A, so where do they get 8,000
kV-A from ??

The Grob works a bit differently, really weird, and has switchable
primaries from the front, for 3 different welding currents: about 75 A
(also used for annealing), 130 A, and 170 amps.... talk about fried
blades. But what a coccamammy system.... I'l be scrapping it, unless
someone wants it.

So does anyone have some advice?? Mebbe I should learn to silver solder
my blades?? I hear people do that effectively.
I just can't believe I've had all this bad luck, after having welded so
many blades flawlessly, back when.
Could it be cheap blades, cheap alloy??

I'm at a loss over here.
What I might do is visit some local machine shops (if there are any left,
it's been a while), and ask them to give a sucka a break, and let me try
their blade welder, if in fact they do their own blade welding.
Goodgawd.....

Appreciate any/all input.


You have to anneal the blade after welding it either by giving it a series
of short bursts further and further apart in time or by using a torch and
slowly backing it away from the blade.

Annealing is fine.... it's the weld that's disastrous.

But Sam, you don't have any saws, right? So you don't use a blade welder,
eh??
--
EA

"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
"PrecisionmachinisT" wrote in message
newscudnWvqqNsUg13NnZ2dnUVZ_sydnZ2d@scnresearch. com...

"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
Awl --

I have a old DoAll DBW-1 blade welder (10465106), and for the life of
me, I can't weld 1/2" blades for my 4x6 saws.
There seems to be a fundamental problem between the spring tension that
draws the "holding jaws" together, and the timing piston that stops the
current (basedon blade width).

In the mechanism that I see, the stronger the spring tension (for a
wider blade), the *shorter* the weld time...!!
If you have taken one apart, you'll see exactly how this works.
But this seems counter-intuitive: the wider the blade, the more
collapsing spring presure you want, AND the longer the weld time.... it
would seem to me.

This mechanism seems so out of kilter, when I set the blade width knob
for 1/2" (or max width), the weld time is ZERO!! Clearly DAT can't be!!

So what I did was jump out this timer contact, so that the operator can
control the weld time by holding down the weld *lever*. And boyoboy,
you sure cain't hold it down for long!! Mebbe a cupla "blips"....

I also was able to switch xsformer primaries, for a lower welding
current, since the welder is rated at 220, and I"m operating at 240. I
also "supplemented" the spring pressure with insulated channelocks, to
get more of a collapse upon heating.

I basically get two results: an instantly breakable weld, or a totally
fried blade, resulting in about 1/8" of the blade being burned away.
Typically, if the blade did weld, the flash would appear on only one
side, instead of symmetrically on both sides. And ergo a very easy
break.

The annealing works fine, on the welds that do take, fragile as they
are.

Many many moons ago, when I had access to a university machine shop, I
used their DoAll blade welder, very similar to mine, and it worked
flawlessly, a no-brainer. I welded dozens and dozens of blades, without
failure.

I also have a Grob blade welder, which is useless -- inneresting, but
useless -- afaict....

So am I basically too far out of my element, screwing around with these
for naught? Can I get it fixed? Is it worth getting fixed? Buy an HF
cheapie?? If I go ebay, how do I know it will work?

I also borrowed a DBW-15 (iirc), a 1" max blade welder, a big sob.
There was sumpn wrong with the alignment block, so that even tho I could
finagle a decent blade weld (nothing like the old days, tho), the g-d
blade would not be welded in a plane..... and would beat the **** out
of the saw pulleys/blade guides, and thus prematurely break.

I have some innersting stats, tho, if anyone is innerested.
Weld current seems to vary between 90 amps and 140 amps, depending on
the primary wired in. Anneal current is about 60 A. And strangely,
altho the unit is rated at 8 kV-A, the primary draw I measured was only
1 amp!!!! Ie, really only 240 V-A, not 8,000 V-A!!! BUT, the plate
does say "220 V, 30 A", which calcs out to 6,600 V-A, at least in the
neighbohood of 8 kV-A. Also, the input wire is incredibly small, 16 ga
*at best*, certainly consistent with 240 V-A, so where do they get 8,000
kV-A from ??

The Grob works a bit differently, really weird, and has switchable
primaries from the front, for 3 different welding currents: about 75 A
(also used for annealing), 130 A, and 170 amps.... talk about fried
blades. But what a coccamammy system.... I'l be scrapping it, unless
someone wants it.

So does anyone have some advice?? Mebbe I should learn to silver solder
my blades?? I hear people do that effectively.
I just can't believe I've had all this bad luck, after having welded so
many blades flawlessly, back when.
Could it be cheap blades, cheap alloy??

I'm at a loss over here.
What I might do is visit some local machine shops (if there are any
left, it's been a while), and ask them to give a sucka a break, and let
me try their blade welder, if in fact they do their own blade welding.
Goodgawd.....

Appreciate any/all input.


You have to anneal the blade after welding it either by giving it a
series of short bursts further and further apart in time or by using a
torch and slowly backing it away from the blade.

Annealing is fine.... it's the weld that's disastrous.

But Sam, you don't have any saws, right? So you don't use a blade welder,
eh??
--
EA


Admittedly, I haven't welded one in many many years now...I buy them
pre-welded either from Saw Service or off ebay..

I have a DoAll C58..
http://www.equipmatching.com/uploads...ibj14jg4ac.jpg

--takes 144 x 1 blades and I use 3-4 pitch which minimizes clogging beings
as generally I stack bars for an 8in wide minimum cut.

On Wed, 5 Dec 2012 23:16:21 -0500, "Existential Angst"
wrote:


So does anyone have some advice?? Mebbe I should learn to silver solder my
blades?? I hear people do that effectively.
I just can't believe I've had all this bad luck, after having welded so many
blades flawlessly, back when.
Could it be cheap blades, cheap alloy??

I have (4) blade welders. All of them are old. And all of them do
pretty much as yours do. I took one to a guy who actually repairs
them..and he told me it was frankly..worn out. My DoAll is good for
up t 5/8" stock and it may weld..but the welds are so poor that even
decent annealing wont save them. They Will break. Sometimes putting
them on the saw..sometimes within the first dozen cuts.

So now I heliarc them with the TIG. That was a learning
experince....shrug

Ive heard the Harbor Freight welder works well enough. Id suggest
buying one and trying it. Or find a shop close by that will let you
knock off a half dozen or dozen blades on their machine.

And only..only buy Lennox bi-metal blades. Chinese blades suck and
the Starret arent much better.

Gunner

The methodology of the left has always been:

1. Lie
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
6. Then everyone must conform to the lie

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 5 Dec 2012 23:16:21 -0500, "Existential Angst"
wrote:


So does anyone have some advice?? Mebbe I should learn to silver solder
my
blades?? I hear people do that effectively.
I just can't believe I've had all this bad luck, after having welded so
many
blades flawlessly, back when.
Could it be cheap blades, cheap alloy??

I have (4) blade welders. All of them are old. And all of them do
pretty much as yours do. I took one to a guy who actually repairs
them..and he told me it was frankly..worn out. My DoAll is good for
up t 5/8" stock and it may weld..but the welds are so poor that even
decent annealing wont save them. They Will break. Sometimes putting
them on the saw..sometimes within the first dozen cuts.

So now I heliarc them with the TIG. That was a learning
experince....shrug

Ive heard the Harbor Freight welder works well enough. Id suggest
buying one and trying it. Or find a shop close by that will let you
knock off a half dozen or dozen blades on their machine.

And only..only buy Lennox bi-metal blades. Chinese blades suck and
the Starret arent much better.

Indeed, very unimpressed with Starrett....
Inneresting you've had similar experience.... I too have a feeling that
this thing is just "worn out".
I've heard silver soldering does a very good job, once you get the technique
down.

Can't find the HF blade welder!!
--
EA




Gunner

The methodology of the left has always been:

1. Lie
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
6. Then everyone must conform to the lie

On Thu, 6 Dec 2012 01:53:20 -0500, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 5 Dec 2012 23:16:21 -0500, "Existential Angst"
wrote:


So does anyone have some advice?? Mebbe I should learn to silver solder
my
blades?? I hear people do that effectively.
I just can't believe I've had all this bad luck, after having welded so
many
blades flawlessly, back when.
Could it be cheap blades, cheap alloy??

I have (4) blade welders. All of them are old. And all of them do
pretty much as yours do. I took one to a guy who actually repairs
them..and he told me it was frankly..worn out. My DoAll is good for
up t 5/8" stock and it may weld..but the welds are so poor that even
decent annealing wont save them. They Will break. Sometimes putting
them on the saw..sometimes within the first dozen cuts.

So now I heliarc them with the TIG. That was a learning
experince....shrug

Ive heard the Harbor Freight welder works well enough. Id suggest
buying one and trying it. Or find a shop close by that will let you
knock off a half dozen or dozen blades on their machine.

And only..only buy Lennox bi-metal blades. Chinese blades suck and
the Starret arent much better.

Indeed, very unimpressed with Starrett....
Inneresting you've had similar experience.... I too have a feeling that
this thing is just "worn out".
I've heard silver soldering does a very good job, once you get the technique
down.

Can't find the HF blade welder!!

Silver soldering does indeed work, and very well.

Simply grind a taper on the inside of each end, put a bit of GOOD
silver solder between them and heat with a torch.

http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php?t=303

Lots more on the web.

I couldnt find the welder at HF either

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INLMPI?P...1410&PMPAGE=16


The methodology of the left has always been:

1. Lie
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
6. Then everyone must conform to the lie

On Dec 5, 11:16*pm, "Existential Angst" wrote:


I also have a Grob blade welder, which is useless -- inneresting, but
useless -- afaict....

The Grob works a bit differently, really weird, and has switchable primaries
from the front, for 3 different welding currents: *about 75 A (also used for
annealing), 130 A, and 170 amps.... *talk about fried blades. *But what a
coccamammy system.... *I'l be scrapping it, unless someone wants it.


I would like the Grob blade welder. I have a Kalamazoo but off saw
that could stand a new blade. And would like to try to reserect the
Grob blade welder. I get up near you every once in a while. My son
lives in Peekskill.

Silver soldering blades is not too hard. Flip one end of the material
and clamp it to the other end so you can grind a taper on both ends at
the same time. Then clamp the ends so the ground parts are against
eath other. Use plenty of flux. Some sort of jig to hold the blades
while silver soldering is good. I made one from a short piece of
angle iron. Milling a bit away so as to have a straight edge to align
the blades, And milling away some material so the ends being soldered
do not have any of the jig sucking up the heat.


Dan




EA

Existential Angst wrote:

Awl --

I have a old DoAll DBW-1 blade welder (10465106), and for the life of me,
I can't weld 1/2" blades for my 4x6 saws.
There seems to be a fundamental problem between the spring tension that
draws the "holding jaws" together, and the timing piston that stops the
current (basedon blade width).

In the mechanism that I see, the stronger the spring tension (for a wider
blade), the *shorter* the weld time...!!
If you have taken one apart, you'll see exactly how this works.
But this seems counter-intuitive: the wider the blade, the more
collapsing
spring presure you want, AND the longer the weld time.... it would seem
to me.
I've used the Do-All welder at work, and it was amazingly good, so I never
had reason to look at the inner workings.

I managed to snag a German-made welder on eBay, the original blade clamps
had been removed and new ones jury-rigged. The blade width knob
adjusts pressure on the blade and also sets taps on the transformer for
the right weld current. The welder keeps running until the blade ends
melt together, that collapse trips a mechanism that turns off the current.
It definitely does not work as well as the Do-All model, but it makes quite
acceptable welds for the 4x6" saw. WAYYY better results that I had silver
soldering blades with a homemade jig. After some fiddling with that
jury-rigged blade clamp that came with the welder, to get the ends of
the blade to stay aligned and not slip sideways over the other end,
I now get blades that usually fail at another point other than the weld.

Jon

wrote in message
...
On Dec 5, 11:16 pm, "Existential Angst" wrote:


I also have a Grob blade welder, which is useless -- inneresting, but
useless -- afaict....

The Grob works a bit differently, really weird, and has switchable
primaries
from the front, for 3 different welding currents: about 75 A (also used
for
annealing), 130 A, and 170 amps.... talk about fried blades. But what a
coccamammy system.... I'l be scrapping it, unless someone wants it.


I would like the Grob blade welder. I have a Kalamazoo but off saw
that could stand a new blade. And would like to try to reserect the
Grob blade welder. I get up near you every once in a while. My son
lives in Peekskill.
================================================== ===

Peekskill is nice, an overall scenic area, Bear Mountain bridge, etc.
iirc, they landmarked some old, old small factory buildings somewhere around
the park, really interesting. It's been a while since I've explored around
there.

At its working best, I don't think this welder could handle over 3/4", and
the clamp itself seems to be for a 1/2" blade, with no alignment stop in the
back -- kinda odd. The face plate is bent, the grinding motor frozen,
wheel-less -- seen better days, f'sure. But the main stuff works.

This fellow made his own blade welder: very impressive:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6c0qlDghEs

Not sure if it's really that easy to make and "get right", or if he just
lucked out with the right xsformer/current, etc.

So, yeah, you can come by, pick it up, but it's not a freebie:
I'm going to hand you a testimonial to my character, very good looks, and
superlative shop skills, that you'll have to post on these here ngs on a
regular basis.....




Silver soldering blades is not too hard. Flip one end of the material
and clamp it to the other end so you can grind a taper on both ends at
the same time. Then clamp the ends so the ground parts are against
eath other. Use plenty of flux. Some sort of jig to hold the blades
while silver soldering is good. I made one from a short piece of
angle iron. Milling a bit away so as to have a straight edge to align
the blades, And milling away some material so the ends being soldered
do not have any of the jig sucking up the heat.
================================================== ===========

Yeah, I'm going to have to practice some.... lord knows I have enough
blades.... lol
I would mebbe just heat the fixture from underneath, before heating the
blade itself, toward the end of more uniform heat to the blade.
Right now, tho, I'm just despondent.... lol
--
EA


Dan




EA