I recently obtained some additional details on these steel products from
the manufacturer, Hitachi Metals. I inquired, hoping to purchase some for
making tools. Shinichiro Kitagawa of the San Jose office was kind enough
to provide me with a quote for the grades in which I am interested.
Unfortunately, the minimum order quantity for shipment to the US is 500
lbs per grade, so I won't be able to make a purchase right away...

By the way, my receiving a quote for these materials refutes the
occasionally stated claim that certain grades of these products are sold
only to toolmakers who meet specific skill requirements imposed by
Hitachi. The only thing Hitachi required of me to become a customer was
good credit.

Here's the scoop:

The facilities at Hitachi's Yasugi Works produce a number of steel and
other metal products. They are sometimes identified as "Yasuki" (because
they're made at the Yasugi plant) or "YSS". The steel stock used by
Japanese woodworking edge tool makers is called "YSS High Class Cutlery"
steel and is wrapped in paper or labeled by the manufacturer. The color
of the paper or label indicates the type of steel.

I think there may be a play on words in the names, as "gami" means "high
class," but "xx-gami" usually refers to a type of paper ("xx-" being the
type). For examples, "atsugami" is cardboard or thick paper, "hanagami"
is tissue paper, "gingami" is silver paper, and so on. However, I don't
speak Japanese, and would appreciate input on this from anyone who does.
Incidentally, I also have a brochure for these steels in Japanese (it's
not available in English). If anyone can help translate it for me, I
would be indebted.

White steel is a common shorthand name for white paper steel ("shirogami
hagane") which can be any of several fairly simple high carbon, water
hardening steel grades. The carbon content varies by grade, and runs from
0.8 to 1.4%. The range of carbon content within a grade is a tight 0.1%.
For example, the carbon content of Shirogami Hagani No1A is specified to
be between 1.3 and 1.4%. Each grade also contains 0.1-0.2% silicon and
0.2-0.3% manganese, and only trace amounts of the impurities sulfur and
phosphorus.

Blue paper steel ("aogami hagane") is also offered in several grades,
with carbon content ranging similarly to the "white" grades. However,
blue steel contains the additional alloying elements chromium and
tungsten, and one grade ("aogami super") also contains molybdenum and
vanadium. The blue steels can be quenched in water or oil, whereas most
of the white grades need a faster quench and require water.

A list of the YSS high-class cutlery steel grades and the specifications
for their composition, heat treatment and hardness is available on my web
site:

http://www.paragoncode.com/temp/YSS_HCC_spec.pdf

Thanks to Hitachi Metals, Ltd, for the information.

Jim

On Sat, 05 Jun 2004 22:34:54 GMT, Jim Wilson
wrote:

I recently obtained some additional details on these steel products from
the manufacturer, Hitachi Metals. I inquired, hoping to purchase some for
making tools. Shinichiro Kitagawa of the San Jose office was kind enough
to provide me with a quote for the grades in which I am interested.
Unfortunately, the minimum order quantity for shipment to the US is 500
lbs per grade, so I won't be able to make a purchase right away...

By the way, my receiving a quote for these materials refutes the
occasionally stated claim that certain grades of these products are sold
only to toolmakers who meet specific skill requirements imposed by
Hitachi. The only thing Hitachi required of me to become a customer was
good credit.

Here's the scoop:

The facilities at Hitachi's Yasugi Works produce a number of steel and
other metal products. They are sometimes identified as "Yasuki" (because
they're made at the Yasugi plant) or "YSS". The steel stock used by
Japanese woodworking edge tool makers is called "YSS High Class Cutlery"
steel and is wrapped in paper or labeled by the manufacturer. The color
of the paper or label indicates the type of steel.

I think there may be a play on words in the names, as "gami" means "high
class," but "xx-gami" usually refers to a type of paper ("xx-" being the
type). For examples, "atsugami" is cardboard or thick paper, "hanagami"
is tissue paper, "gingami" is silver paper, and so on. However, I don't
speak Japanese, and would appreciate input on this from anyone who does.
Incidentally, I also have a brochure for these steels in Japanese (it's
not available in English). If anyone can help translate it for me, I
would be indebted.

White steel is a common shorthand name for white paper steel ("shirogami
hagane") which can be any of several fairly simple high carbon, water
hardening steel grades. The carbon content varies by grade, and runs from
0.8 to 1.4%. The range of carbon content within a grade is a tight 0.1%.
For example, the carbon content of Shirogami Hagani No1A is specified to
be between 1.3 and 1.4%. Each grade also contains 0.1-0.2% silicon and
0.2-0.3% manganese, and only trace amounts of the impurities sulfur and
phosphorus.

Blue paper steel ("aogami hagane") is also offered in several grades,
with carbon content ranging similarly to the "white" grades. However,
blue steel contains the additional alloying elements chromium and
tungsten, and one grade ("aogami super") also contains molybdenum and
vanadium. The blue steels can be quenched in water or oil, whereas most
of the white grades need a faster quench and require water.

A list of the YSS high-class cutlery steel grades and the specifications
for their composition, heat treatment and hardness is available on my web
site:

http://www.paragoncode.com/temp/YSS_HCC_spec.pdf

Thanks to Hitachi Metals, Ltd, for the information.

Jim



just a thought.

I wonder if the wreck could pool enough customers to meet hitachi's
minimum order....

bridger wrote...

I wonder if the wreck could pool enough customers to meet hitachi's
minimum order....


I don't know. 500 lbs would be enough to make more than 9,500 laminated
plane irons, or about 15,000 chisels. (Assuming the bulk of the tool is a
soft steel.) Seems like a lot for a niche market.

Jim

I don't know. 500 lbs would be enough to make more than 9,500 laminated
plane irons, or about 15,000 chisels. (Assuming the bulk of the tool is a
soft steel.) Seems like a lot for a niche market.

about a year and a half for me (G) well I use about 90 to 100# every three
months approx.
how much is the good white steel a pound?

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.

Steve Knight wrote...

I don't know. 500 lbs would be enough to make more than 9,500 laminated
plane irons, or about 15,000 chisels. (Assuming the bulk of the tool is a
soft steel.) Seems like a lot for a niche market.

about a year and a half for me (G) well I use about 90 to 100# every three
months approx.

That's for solid irons, though, right? If your irons are like mine, 1/4"
thick x 2" x 4", you get about 175 irons per hundred pounds of steel.
That sound about right?

If the Hitachi steel were to be used on laminated irons, you'd only need
about a 55mm square x 1mm thick. The rest of the tool would be plain
steel. So, you could theoretically get over 2200 irons per hundred pounds
of the tool steel. Because of the stock dimensions, though, there'd be a
bit of waste, which would drop the yield to probably just under 2000
irons per hundred pounds.

how much is the good white steel a pound?

It's all good, right? (G) Hitachi quoted me $9.06 / lb for the No1A white
paper steel, in 500 lb quantities, cold-rolled. The Aogami No2 was
$10.46. I pay about half that for precision ground O1.

Cheers!

Jim

Jim Wilson wrote in message link.net...
Steve Knight wrote...

I don't know. 500 lbs would be enough to make more than 9,500 laminated
plane irons, or about 15,000 chisels. (Assuming the bulk of the tool is a
soft steel.) Seems like a lot for a niche market.

about a year and a half for me (G) well I use about 90 to 100# every three
months approx.

That's for solid irons, though, right? If your irons are like mine, 1/4"
thick x 2" x 4", you get about 175 irons per hundred pounds of steel.
That sound about right?

If the Hitachi steel were to be used on laminated irons, you'd only need
about a 55mm square x 1mm thick. The rest of the tool would be plain
steel. So, you could theoretically get over 2200 irons per hundred pounds
of the tool steel. Because of the stock dimensions, though, there'd be a
bit of waste, which would drop the yield to probably just under 2000
irons per hundred pounds.

how much is the good white steel a pound?

It's all good, right? (G) Hitachi quoted me $9.06 / lb for the No1A white
paper steel, in 500 lb quantities, cold-rolled. The Aogami No2 was
$10.46. I pay about half that for precision ground O1.


It would be my understanding, that extensive further manipulation of
this steel would be necessary to forgeweld the plain steel onto the
white or blue steel, and that this process is, in addition to the hard
steel, is the real value in japanese high end tools.

Although tempting, a solid blue or white steel tool would be quite
brittle according to common espoused literature, and the job of the
soft steel is to provide shock resistance and support for the super
hard layer.

Alan

It would make a fine tool. The brittleness is controlled by the tempering.

"Alan W" wrote in message
Although tempting, a solid blue or white steel tool would be quite
brittle according to common espoused literature, and the job of the
soft steel is to provide shock resistance and support for the super
hard layer.

Alan

Alan W wrote...

It would be my understanding, that extensive further manipulation of
this steel would be necessary to forgeweld the plain steel onto the
white or blue steel, and that this process is, in addition to the hard
steel, is the real value in japanese high end tools.

Absolutely true, of course. Quality tools don't make themselves! (G) The
smith definitely earns his credit.

Although tempting, a solid blue or white steel tool would be quite
brittle according to common espoused literature, and the job of the
soft steel is to provide shock resistance and support for the super
hard layer.

It would be a waste, given the high relative cost of the material.
However, it is almost certainly possible, technically, to make a fine
blade from solid white or blue steel, if by no other means than
differential heat treatment. That doesn't necessarily make it a good
idea, though. The laminated design has real merits that can't be
duplicated well by other means.

Jim

CW wrote...
It would make a fine tool.

I agree that it could.

The brittleness is controlled by the tempering.

It can be to a large extent. In steel, the trade-off for decreasing the
brittleness by tempering is often lost wear resistance, and consequently,
edge retention. The optimal balance point for this trade-off depends on
the chemistry of the alloy as well as the application.

The extremely high carbon content of these steels and the lack of
toughening alloying elements to "glue" the hard micro-particles together
suggests that a solid tool might need to be tempered quite hot to reach
an acceptable level of toughness. That could have an excessively adverse
affect on edge retention, unless the very edge were tempered to a lesser
degree. (G)

A comparison between the No1A white steel and white cast iron is
interesting:

Alloying
Element No1A white steel white cast iron
============ ================== =================
Carbon 1.3-1.4% 1.8-3.6%
Silicon 0.1-0.2 0.5-1.9
Manganese 0.2-0.3 0.25-0.8
Phosphorus =0.025 0.06-0.2
Sulfur =0.004 0.06-0.2

(I hope the table isn't too messed up by a proportional font.)

The vast majority of steels contain less than one percent carbon, whereas
cast iron generally has more than two percent carbon. The No1A really
just falls on the steel side of the fuzzy area between steel and cast
iron.

The presence of silicon is especially intriguing because silicon affects
the solubility of carbon in austenite. My gut says that the silicon
content is too low to allow the the No1A to solidify with a substantially
eutectic structure, but it is suggestive nonetheless. It certainly helps
makes sense of the fact that Japanese woodworking edge tools often are
less tough than their western counterparts but exhibit better wear
resistance. That is, their failure modes tend to be chipping and
fracture, rather than abrasive erosion or (horrors!) plastic deformation.

Jim

That's for solid irons, though, right? If your irons are like mine, 1/4"
thick x 2" x 4", you get about 175 irons per hundred pounds of steel.
That sound about right?

I make them 5" or so long 6 irons per 36" bar. about 120 or so.


It's all good, right? (G) Hitachi quoted me $9.06 / lb for the No1A white
paper steel, in 500 lb quantities, cold-rolled. The Aogami No2 was
$10.46. I pay about half that for precision ground O1.

a bit spendy then. but nice to think about (G) I don't think the steel would be
as good in solid form over a laminated blade.

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.

Kami means paper (also hair, god ...) Each is a different kanji (or
character)
When a word that begins with a ka is incorporated into another word the ka
is frequently changed to a ga.
I may be wrong, but it doesn't appear that there is any play on words going
on here.

Here is the rest of the vocabulary that you have used.
Atsui means thick
Hana likely means nose in this case, but could mean flower.
Gin is Silver.
Ao is blue
Shiro is white

-Jack

"Jim Wilson" wrote in message
link.net...

I think there may be a play on words in the names, as "gami" means "high
class," but "xx-gami" usually refers to a type of paper ("xx-" being the
type). For examples, "atsugami" is cardboard or thick paper, "hanagami"
is tissue paper, "gingami" is silver paper, and so on. However, I don't
speak Japanese, and would appreciate input on this from anyone who does.

JD wrote...
Kami means paper (also hair, god ...) Each is a different kanji (or
character)
When a word that begins with a ka is incorporated into another word the ka
is frequently changed to a ga.
I may be wrong, but it doesn't appear that there is any play on words going
on here.

Here is the rest of the vocabulary that you have used.
Atsui means thick
Hana likely means nose in this case, but could mean flower.
Gin is Silver.
Ao is blue
Shiro is white

-Jack

Thanks, Jack. The play on words I was guessing at was calling the steel
"High Class," and identifying it by it's wrapper color. Gami Hagane,
Shirogami Hagane, etc. But I don't know how it would look in Japanese.

Thanks again,

Jim

Steve Knight wrote...

a bit spendy then.

Yabbut under 50 cents in tool steel in each laminated iron.

but nice to think about (G)

Oh, yes!

I don't think the steel would be as good in solid form over
a laminated blade.

Have to agree with that, especially now that the chemical composition is
known. It sure would be great to give this stuff a shot.

Cheers!

Jim

On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 01:19:54 GMT, "JD" wrote:

I may be wrong, but it doesn't appear that there is any play on words going
on here.

All Japanese etymology is a play on words. Every character has a
shedload of meanings. Every word is only a couple of characters.
There's huge duplication and potential ambiguity here.

The creation of a "beautiful" word (which is the wrong term, but there
is an aesthetic notion here) is in picking something that has several
meanings, made by reading the same characters in different ways and
having many or all of the meanings relevant to the concept expressed
by the overall word.

--
Smert' spamionam

Andy Dingley wrote...

All Japanese etymology is a play on words. Every character has a
shedload of meanings. Every word is only a couple of characters.
There's huge duplication and potential ambiguity here.

The creation of a "beautiful" word (which is the wrong term, but there
is an aesthetic notion here) is in picking something that has several
meanings, made by reading the same characters in different ways and
having many or all of the meanings relevant to the concept expressed
by the overall word.

That was my guarded suspicion, but being completely ignorant of Japanese,
I have no way of knowing at this point. Do you know whether the
characters for "High Class Cutlery" and "White Paper Steel" (for example)
bear any semblence to each other? Or, is it just a coincidence that the
phonetic translations jive in English?

Jim

P.S. I confess that I was hoping you would comment on the conjectures in
my response to CW's post yesterday, Andy. I thought you might have some
insight into the chemistry/performance relationship of these products
that you could share.

Cheers!

Jim

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
I may be wrong, but it doesn't appear that there is any play on words
going
on here.

All Japanese etymology is a play on words. Every character has a
shedload of meanings. Every word is only a couple of characters.
There's huge duplication and potential ambiguity here.

Yes, but the character for Kami (paper) is completely different from either
of the characters in the word gami.
Really all they share is that they sound alike.
Jim Breen has an excellent site which deals with Japanese translations and
characters.
http://www.aa.tufs.ac.jp/~jwb/cgi-bin/wwwjdic.cgi?9C

The creation of a "beautiful" word (which is the wrong term, but there
is an aesthetic notion here) is in picking something that has several
meanings, made by reading the same characters in different ways and
having many or all of the meanings relevant to the concept expressed
by the overall word.

I'd agree, but none of that is going on here.
Both of these gami's are as alike as toy is to toilet or toyota.
Ok, I take that back. They are the gami's are even less alike...

-Jack

On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 04:32:51 GMT, Jim Wilson wrote:

Steve Knight wrote...

a bit spendy then.

Yabbut under 50 cents in tool steel in each laminated iron.

and 80.00 labor (G)

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.

Steve Knight wrote...
Jim Wilson wrote:

Steve Knight wrote...

a bit spendy then.

Yabbut under 50 cents in tool steel in each laminated iron.

and 80.00 labor (G)

Exactly! For 2000 irons! With a glut like that, you might be able to sell
'em for twenty bucks apiece! (G)

Jim

Jack wrote...

Both of these gami's are as alike as toy is to toilet or toyota.
Ok, I take that back. They are the gami's are even less alike...

LOL! Ok. Thanks, Jack.

Jim

Exactly! For 2000 irons! With a glut like that, you might be able to sell
'em for twenty bucks apiece! (G)

just getting the blades I have made now are a battle. they keep costing more and
I still have to have them surface ground. I would not like all my planes to have
laminated blades (G) though I wish I could get them all with laminated blades
and chuck the solid O-1.

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.