Now we are with our families think a little of Bradley Manning. Seven months
in solitary confinement alone in a cell without a pillow or sheet, forbidden
even to exercise. May God bless him and keep him and may he know that we
think of him.

http://www.armycourtmartialdefense.i...y-manning.html

Tim W

In article ,
says...

Now we are with our families think a little of Bradley Manning. Seven months
in solitary confinement alone in a cell without a pillow or sheet, forbidden
even to exercise. May God bless him and keep him and may he know that we
think of him.

http://www.armycourtmartialdefense.i...y-manning.html

He wouldn't be in that cell if he hadn't blabbed classified information.

"Tim W" wrote in message
...
Now we are with our families think a little of Bradley Manning. Seven
months
in solitary confinement alone in a cell without a pillow or sheet,
forbidden
even to exercise. May God bless him and keep him and may he know that we
think of him.

http://www.armycourtmartialdefense.i...y-manning.html

Tim W




The prison is properly run, but they should take away the TV. This is the
consequence of breaking laws. He could have prevented this.

"Tim Daneliuk" wrote in message
...

Government needs to be held accountable, and sometimes this means
disclosing information it would rather not see made public. But
if one chooses to do this in the name of some claimed moral nobility,
one also chooses the consequences that go with this. The problem with
the Mannings of this world is that they want to be the Saviors Of
Mankind, but want this to be consequence-free.

You have a point there. A big difference between say Gandhi or Martin
Luther King and many of today's protestors is Gandhi and MLK were prepared
to go to jail for their beliefs, they even recognized it could be a useful
tactic to pressure the authorities. But it does seem some of today's
progressives figure on going home after the protest even if they broke the
law.

Worst of all, Manning and Assange didn't act to *selectively* disclose
what they felt was a set of bad actions by the US government. They
simply dumped everything in sight into the public eye

Not so, they have released only a tiny fraction of the U.S. diplomatic
cables they have, and *some* of the material they have released has been
edited to prevent harm to individuals.

IMO Wikileaks has done some good work, revealing things that should have
been revealed. However I am concerned that they have put people in harm's
way by identifying them (e.g. Afghans working with the govt.). And the
group's leader, Mr. Assange, appears to have several screws loose.

"Tim Daneliuk" wrote in message
...


Not so, they have released only a tiny fraction of the U.S.
diplomatic cables they have, and *some* of the material they have
released has been edited to prevent harm to individuals.

*So Far*. The problem is that they have shown absolutely no real
judgment is how material for publication is selected.

Given the intense interest the material they've released recently aroused in
the press, the public, and various governments I'd say they've chosen quite
well. It's worth noting that the press largely ignored some of their
earlier releases, so they started putting out stuff more likely to grab
headlines. It's too bad that so much of the public finds serious news
boring and wants to hear about scandals.

WL *could*
serve a useful purpose to counterbalance the inherent desire of
government to do naughty things in secret.

They already have, unless you figure there's some good reason we shouldn't
be told about illegal toxic waste dumping, or Kenyan govt. death squads, or
a drug company trying to suppress unfortunate test results....

Thus far, though, all
they've demonstrated is the usual drooling progressive anti-war
instincts without much real thought behind any of it ... how unusual...

How does revealing an oil company pulling the strings of a third-world govt.
qualify as "drooling anti-war instincts"? Slogans are fun, but if you slip
into the habit of believing your own slogans you're not doing yourself any
favors.

IMO Wikileaks has done some good work, revealing things that should
have been revealed. However I am concerned that they have put people

This is unclear. What real purpose is served in revealing some
diplomat's view of their counterpart in another nation?

Is your knowledge of the information they've released over the past four
years limited to recent headlines? Some of the first stuff they released
was on corruption in the govt. of Kenya, is there some good reason you
figure that should be kept quiet? Or corruption of politicians in Peru, or
allegedly illegal banking activities in the Cayman Islands, or an accident
at an Iranian nuclear facility--do you really think none of this being
public knowledge serves any good purpose? Pray tell, what kind of news do
you like to hear about, the sports scores?

This is
a perfectly normal form of reporting that isn't useful for much other
than to embarrass the US government

Assange appears to have a strong anti-American streak, and sadly since March
of 2003 there have been a lot more people ready to listen to his point of
view.

(which is, after all, the central
goal of all Western progressives - the most self loathing bunch I've ever
met
in my travels around the planet).

There's that slogan thing again. Waving a placard is probably not as good a
form of exercise as you think it is.

in harm's way by identifying them (e.g. Afghans working with the
govt.).

Right - the damage far exceeds any claimed benefits.

We don't know that, not yet. And considering the nature of the Afghan
govt., any damage Wikileaks is able to do will be small potatoes compared to
what that govt. does.

And the group's leader, Mr. Assange, appears to have several
screws loose.

He's just another in a long line of self-proclaimed Saviors Of Mankind.
You can always spot them.

How much do you know about his background? Given the way he was raised it's
not surprising that paranoia and a hatred of authority are part of his
character. Emotionally rewarding as you find it to assume Assange is
motivated purely by being "progressive", he seems to have other problems
unrelated to his politics. His management style is highly reminiscent of
Donald Rumsfeld, and people who can't tolerate loyal dissent and bulldoze
their own supporters into submission are dangerous to have in a position of
power.

They know what's good for you, they know
how to spend your money, they know whom you should serve, and they,
of course, are uniquely entitled to the position of Professional
Savior, Senior Grade.

Indeed, and some of them know that God Himself wants them to invade a
country that regrettably regrettably turned out not to have the WMDs it was
supposed to have. They come in many flavors.

Embarrassing the government into better behavior is one thing.
Thoughtlessly
slinging feces all over the cage is the act of a chimp.

Too bad we had to wait for a chimp to tell us about some of this stuff.

"Tim W" wrote in message
...
Now we are with our families think a little of Bradley Manning. Seven
months
in solitary confinement alone in a cell without a pillow or sheet,
forbidden
even to exercise. May God bless him and keep him and may he know that we
think of him.

http://www.armycourtmartialdefense.i...y-manning.html

Tim W




Well, that was an easy troll. Ford fender?

--
If your name is No, I voted for you - more than once ...

On Thu, 23 Dec 2010 01:12:15 -0000, "Tim W"
wrote:

Now we are with our families think a little of Bradley Manning. Seven months
in solitary confinement alone in a cell without a pillow or sheet, forbidden
even to exercise. May God bless him and keep him and may he know that we
think of him.

http://www.armycourtmartialdefense.i...y-manning.html

Tim W


You are definitely one warped liberal. It's a shame the
son-of-a-bitch is still breathing!

On Wed, 22 Dec 2010 22:08:44 -0800, DGDevin wrote:

Waving a placard is probably not as good a form of exercise as you think
it is.

Good one!

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

On 12/23/2010 11:34 AM, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Thu, 23 Dec 2010 01:12:15 -0000, "Tim W"
wrote:

Now we are with our families think a little of Bradley Manning. Seven months
in solitary confinement alone in a cell without a pillow or sheet, forbidden
even to exercise. May God bless him and keep him and may he know that we
think of him.

http://www.armycourtmartialdefense.i...y-manning.html

Tim W


You are definitely one warped liberal. It's a shame the
son-of-a-bitch is still breathing!
Maybe we could put Jane Fonda in an adjoining cell then they could just
bleed their little hearts out together.

"Tim Daneliuk" wrote in message
...

How does revealing an oil company pulling the strings of a third-world
govt. qualify as "drooling anti-war instincts"? Slogans are fun, but if
you slip into the habit of believing your own slogans you're not doing
yourself any favors.

Again ... current context only.

The revelations about Shell Oil infiltrating the govt. of Nigeria come from
the leaked U.S. diplomatic cables you're complaining about. So does the
story about Pfizer messing with the govt. of Nigeria over drug trials on
children.

Does the expression, "Do your homework" ring any bells? Of course you have
every right to form and express your opinion without being in possession of
the facts, there's no law against ignorance.

"Roger" wrote in message
...

You are definitely one warped liberal. It's a shame the
son-of-a-bitch is still breathing!

Maybe we could put Jane Fonda in an adjoining cell then they could just
bleed their little hearts out together.


You know I never found Jane Fonda in any way attractive. Does that make me
warped as well?

Tim W

Tim Daneliuk wrote:
On 12/22/2010 7:12 PM, Tim W wrote:
Now we are with our families think a little of Bradley Manning.
Seven months in solitary confinement alone in a cell without a
pillow or sheet, forbidden even to exercise. May God bless him and
keep him and may he know that we think of him.

http://www.armycourtmartialdefense.i...y-manning.html

Tim W




snipped. It makes no
difference whether or not he feels noble about his acts, he broke a
clear and unambiguous set of promises he made *voluntarily*.

Which all Americans in government and public service do every minute of
every day - especially your politicians.

Snipped. The problem with
the Mannings of this world is that they want to be the Saviors Of
Mankind, but want this to be consequence-free.

Rather like the ethos of the USA which generally wants to "be the Saviors Of
Mankind" - as long as its to their benefit and profit.

Worst of all, Manning and Assange didn't act to *selectively* disclose
what they felt was a set of bad actions by the US government. They
simply dumped everything in sight into the public eye (or are doing
so as we speak) without regard for the consequences to diplomats,
their dependents, the military folks who are in harm's way, and the
diplomatic process itself. By doing what they did, they deeply
damaged the whole process of diplomatic negotiations and probably
made the current wars *last longer*.

What an utter load of cobblers! Manning and Assange have done the world a
great service - and what is America doing about it?

Using unlawful methods to try and get Assange extradited to the USA or some
of your politicians (Palin for one) is demanding unlawful execution of
Assange - and that is from the land of "freedom and free speech".
Hypocrites!!

As for "deeply damaged the whole process of diplomatic negotiations" why
does your diplomatic service need personal biometric and financial data of
members of the UN and foreign governments - along with other irrelevant
data? Your government diplomats "harmed" themselves by stupidly allowing up
to 3,000,000 US citizens access to restricted information - and any one (or
more) could/is passing on that information in many different ways.

Manning got what he deserves and needs to go to jail for the rest of
his life.

Why, he has actually done the world a great service and exposed the true
colours and motives of the so-called "land of the free" - which in reality
is rapidly becoming the police state of the world.

P.S. The founders of the US put their lives at risk to stand up to
abusive government.

Very admirable too, but that's what many people are doing now in the most
abusive country in the world... *AMERICA*

But - unlike Manning - they did so
consciously, without demanding a Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free card if
they got caught.

But remember, they were the traitors and terrorists of the day - and every
"traitor and terrorist" is some countries "hero and freedom fighter".

As a matter of interest, how do you know that they didn't "consciously,
demanding a Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free card if they got caught"? You weren't
there...

In article ,
says...

"Roger" wrote in message
...

You are definitely one warped liberal. It's a shame the
son-of-a-bitch is still breathing!

Maybe we could put Jane Fonda in an adjoining cell then they could just
bleed their little hearts out together.


You know I never found Jane Fonda in any way attractive. Does that make me
warped as well?

I dunno. Saw "Klute" the other day and she seemed a lot less attractive
then than she does now at 72. Just wish that she'd take some Ritalin or
something so that she'd think before she opens her mouth.

In article ,
Tim Daneliuk wrote:
...snipped...
P.S. The founders of the US put their lives at risk to stand up to
abusive government. But - unlike Manning - they did so consciously,
without demanding a Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free card if they got caught.


So you would have no sympathy for an American soldier during the
revolution who had been captured by the British? Or (for the sake of
argument) a British subject who was sympathetic to the Americans and
imprisoned for publishing information detrimental to the British government?


--
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation
with the average voter. (Winston Churchill)

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org

It was written:
And the group's leader, Mr. Assange, appears to have several
screws loose.

As far as the Swedish charges go, it is certainly no worse than some
of the things alleged about Ben Franklin in his day, or for that matter,
some of our more modern Presidents...


--
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation
with the average voter. (Winston Churchill)

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org

In article ,
Tim W wrote:
...snipped...
You know I never found Jane Fonda in any way attractive. Does that make me
warped as well?



No, just gay! -- KIDDING!




--
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation
with the average voter. (Winston Churchill)

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org

In article ,
says...

In article ,
Tim Daneliuk wrote:
...snipped...
P.S. The founders of the US put their lives at risk to stand up to
abusive government. But - unlike Manning - they did so consciously,
without demanding a Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free card if they got caught.


So you would have no sympathy for an American soldier during the
revolution who had been captured by the British? Or (for the sake of
argument) a British subject who was sympathetic to the Americans and
imprisoned for publishing information detrimental to the British government?

I have no sympathy for Benedict Arnold.

J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

In article ,
Tim Daneliuk wrote:
...snipped...
P.S. The founders of the US put their lives at risk to stand up to
abusive government. But - unlike Manning - they did so
consciously, without demanding a Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free card if
they got caught.


So you would have no sympathy for an American soldier during the
revolution who had been captured by the British? Or (for the sake of
argument) a British subject who was sympathetic to the Americans and
imprisoned for publishing information detrimental to the British
government?

I have no sympathy for Benedict Arnold.

But if Benedict Arnold had betrayed the English rather than the American
cause, would you then still consider him to be a traitor *OR* would you call
him a hero of the American cause?

Either way, he his both a traitor and a hero - much like today's so called
"terrorists" wouldn't you agree?

On Dec 23, 3:52*pm, "J. Clarke" wrote:
In article ,
says...



In article ,
Tim Daneliuk wrote:
...snipped...
P.S. *The founders of the US put their lives at risk to stand up to
* * *abusive government. *But - unlike Manning - they did so consciously,
* * *without demanding a Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free card if they got caught.

So you would have no sympathy for an American soldier during the
revolution who had been captured by the British? Or (for the sake of
argument) a British subject who was sympathetic to the Americans and
imprisoned for publishing information detrimental to the British government?

I have no sympathy for Benedict Arnold.

I have lots. He started out as a traitor to his king and was the most
effective treasonous military leader. (unlike some who were worshiped
despite never having won any battle of consequence and having to be
rescued by the French, of all people, at Yorktown.)

He then recanted his treason and became a loyal subject again, after
realizing what a bunch of ungrateful scumbags his fellow traitors
were.

Luigi

OK. let's take it higher. Let's talk about Hitler, the military genius.

"Disbelief" wrote in message
...
But if Benedict Arnold had betrayed the English rather than the American
cause, would you then still consider him to be a traitor *OR* would you call
him a hero of the American cause?

Either way, he his both a traitor and a hero - much like today's so called
"terrorists" wouldn't you agree?

"Tim Daneliuk" wrote in message
...

No doubt it would be much better - in your lexicon - to simply
avoid presenting said children with ANY drug therapy. The last
argument of a lost cause is "What about the children?"

That's your response to me pointing out you didn't know what you were
talking about Wikileaks? That's as clumsy an attempt at side-stepping
as I've ever seen.

BTW, the problem with the drug trial is that kids were killed and maimed.
But them's the breaks, the important thing is protecting Pfizer's
profitability without any pesky lawsuits. Besides, it happened in Africa,
like that should be a problem for an American company, pfffft.

I've done my homework ... for many years.

No, you didn't. You dismissed some of the Wikileaks revelations as not
being related to the leaked diplomatic cables and thus not germane to this
thread. I just pointed out two of the issues I'd mentioned did in fact come
from those leaked cables. In other words, you didn't know what you were
talking about (what a shocker!) and now you'd chew off your own thumbs
before you'd admit that.

The only thing of which I am
certain is that if one does not believe in the fundamental rightness
of liberty, markets, capitalism, and trade, one will always be led to
foul conclusions...

Do you take any other form of exercise besides placard waving? Oh, and
slogan chanting, that must be good for the breathing muscles. However you
could use some practice climbing down, especially if you're just going to
skim the headlines rather than read in enough detail to know what the hell
you're talking about.

"Tim Daneliuk" wrote in message
...


You are free to criticise us as you wish ... you have that luxury
because -
if you live free - it is almost certain that American blood and treasure
made it possible.

Unless of course he has the experience of living in one of those countries
where America supported a brutal dictator because he was happy to play ball
with American corporate interests or otherwise suit American foreign policy.
You know--the Philippines, Nicaragua, Dominican Republic, Iran, Chile,
Guatemala--it's a long list. But what the hell, so long as United Fruit or
whatever company was making good profits, and the local labor leaders were
in prison or missing, why should Americans care if their nation supported a
military junta that overthrew a democratically elected government? At least
the place didn't go commie, 'cause we don't care for brutal regimes that
oppress their people. Well, unless we're making good money there, no need
being damn fools about all that liberty crap when profits are at stake,
right?

On Dec 24, 12:21*am, "DGDevin" wrote:
"Tim Daneliuk" *wrote in message

*The only thing of which I am
certain is that if one does not believe in the fundamental rightness
of liberty, markets, capitalism, and trade, one will always be led to
foul conclusions...

Do you take any other form of exercise besides placard waving? *Oh, and
slogan chanting, that must be good for the breathing muscles. *However you
could use some practice climbing down, especially if you're just going to
skim the headlines rather than read in enough detail to know what the hell
you're talking about.


You may have missed his unambiguous statement that his positions are
always ideologically driven -- ie, reasoning backward FROM a pre-
ordained conclusion.

He stated THAT part beautifully.

On Dec 23, 10:26*pm, Tim Daneliuk wrote:
On 12/23/2010 4:39 PM, Disbelief wrote:









Tim Daneliuk wrote:
On 12/22/2010 7:12 PM, Tim W wrote:
Now we are with our families think a little of Bradley Manning.
Seven months in solitary confinement alone in a cell without a
pillow or sheet, forbidden even to exercise. May God bless him and
keep him and may he know that we think of him.

http://www.armycourtmartialdefense.i...-day-for-pfc-b....

Tim W

snipped. *It makes no
difference whether or not he feels noble about his acts, he broke a
clear and unambiguous set of promises he made *voluntarily*.

Which all Americans in government and public service do every minute of
every day - especially your politicians.

Snipped. *The problem with
the Mannings of this world is that they want to be the Saviors Of
Mankind, but want this to be consequence-free.

Rather like the ethos of the USA which generally wants to "be the Saviors Of
Mankind" - as long as its to their benefit and profit.

Worst of all, Manning and Assange didn't act to *selectively* disclose
what they felt was a set of bad actions by the US government. *They
simply dumped everything in sight into the public eye (or are doing
so as we speak) without regard for the consequences to diplomats,
their dependents, the military folks who are in harm's way, and the
diplomatic process itself. *By doing what they did, they deeply
damaged the whole process of diplomatic negotiations and probably
made the current wars *last longer*.

What an utter load of cobblers! *Manning and Assange have done the world a
great service - and what is America doing about it?

Using unlawful methods to try and get Assange extradited to the USA or some
of your politicians (Palin for one) is demanding unlawful execution of
Assange - and that is from the land of "freedom and free speech".
Hypocrites!!

As for "deeply damaged the whole process of diplomatic negotiations" why
does your diplomatic service need personal biometric and financial data of
members of the UN and foreign governments - along with other irrelevant
data? *Your government diplomats "harmed" themselves by stupidly allowing up
to 3,000,000 US citizens access to restricted information - and any one (or
more) could/is passing on that information in many different ways.

Manning got what he deserves and needs to go to jail for the rest of
his life.

Why, he has actually done the world a great service and exposed the true
colours and motives of the so-called "land of the free" - which in reality
is rapidly becoming the police state of the world.

P.S. *The founders of the US put their lives at risk to stand up to
* * *abusive government.

Very admirable too, but that's what many people are doing now in the most
abusive country in the world... *AMERICA*

But - unlike Manning - they did so
* * *consciously, without demanding a Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free card if
they got caught.

But remember, they were the traitors and terrorists of the day - and every
"traitor and terrorist" is some countries "hero and freedom fighter".

As a matter of interest, how do you know that they didn't "consciously,
demanding a Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free card if they got caught"? *You weren't
there...

Right, but I've read their considerably writing ... you might do the same..

I do so wish the US would withdraw from the world state for, say, 20 years or
so that people like you could get a taste of what the planet would feel like
with people of conviction and genuine interest in liberty might feel like..
You are free to criticise us as you wish ... you have that luxury because -
if you live free - it is almost certain that American blood and treasure
made it possible.


It makes one wonder how you cling so tenaciously to the notion of
"free markets," yet insist that they not be applied to the actions of
Nations -- implicitly demanding that yours intercede in the actions of
others.....

Actually, I tend to agree with you: absent SOME of the US's
interventions, the world would be a much less equitable, much less
civilized place than, even, it is.

Ditto the notion of "free markets." Absent the same sort of
intervention, the haves will -- at every opportunity -- screw the have
nots.

On Thu, 23 Dec 2010 23:39:38 -0800, DGDevin wrote:

Well, unless we're making good
money there, no need being damn fools about all that liberty crap when
profits are at stake, right?

Now,now - mustn't let reality intrude on the dreamworld of the flag
wavers :-).

Excellent article in the December issue of American History relating how
Patrick Henry warned of the dangers in a strong federal government.

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

Tim Daneliuk wrote:
On 12/23/2010 4:39 PM, Disbelief wrote:
Tim Daneliuk wrote:
On 12/22/2010 7:12 PM, Tim W wrote:
Now we are with our families think a little of Bradley Manning.
Seven months in solitary confinement alone in a cell without a
pillow or sheet, forbidden even to exercise. May God bless him and
keep him and may he know that we think of him.

http://www.armycourtmartialdefense.i...y-manning.html

Tim W




snipped. It makes no
difference whether or not he feels noble about his acts, he broke a
clear and unambiguous set of promises he made *voluntarily*.

Which all Americans in government and public service do every minute
of every day - especially your politicians.

Snipped. The problem with
the Mannings of this world is that they want to be the Saviors Of
Mankind, but want this to be consequence-free.

Rather like the ethos of the USA which generally wants to "be the
Saviors Of Mankind" - as long as its to their benefit and profit.

Worst of all, Manning and Assange didn't act to *selectively*
disclose what they felt was a set of bad actions by the US
government. They simply dumped everything in sight into the public
eye (or are doing so as we speak) without regard for the
consequences to diplomats, their dependents, the military folks who
are in harm's way, and the diplomatic process itself. By doing
what they did, they deeply damaged the whole process of diplomatic
negotiations and probably made the current wars *last longer*.

What an utter load of cobblers! Manning and Assange have done the
world a great service - and what is America doing about it?

Using unlawful methods to try and get Assange extradited to the USA
or some of your politicians (Palin for one) is demanding unlawful
execution of Assange - and that is from the land of "freedom and
free speech". Hypocrites!!

As for "deeply damaged the whole process of diplomatic negotiations"
why does your diplomatic service need personal biometric and
financial data of members of the UN and foreign governments - along
with other irrelevant data? Your government diplomats "harmed"
themselves by stupidly allowing up to 3,000,000 US citizens access
to restricted information - and any one (or more) could/is passing
on that information in many different ways.

Manning got what he deserves and needs to go to jail for the rest of
his life.

Why, he has actually done the world a great service and exposed the
true colours and motives of the so-called "land of the free" - which
in reality is rapidly becoming the police state of the world.

P.S. The founders of the US put their lives at risk to stand up to
abusive government.

Very admirable too, but that's what many people are doing now in the
most abusive country in the world... *AMERICA*

But - unlike Manning - they did so
consciously, without demanding a Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free card if
they got caught.

But remember, they were the traitors and terrorists of the day - and
every "traitor and terrorist" is some countries "hero and freedom
fighter".

As a matter of interest, how do you know that they didn't
"consciously, demanding a Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free card if they got
caught"? You weren't there...



Right, but I've read their considerably writing ... you might do the
same.

I do so wish the US would withdraw from the world state for, say, 20
years or so that people like you could get a taste of what the planet
would feel like with people of conviction and genuine interest in
liberty might feel like. You are free to criticise us as you wish ...
you have that luxury because - if you live free - it is almost
certain that American blood and treasure made it possible.


I really would wish that the "US would withdraw from the world state" as it
seems that whenever you get involved you make matters a lot worse due to the
greed and ambitions of many of your leaders.

As for "so that people like you could get a taste of what the planet would
feel like with people of conviction and genuine interest in liberty might
feel like." Do you really think that the leaders of your country are really
concerned about that?

They are not interested in "liberty" per-se, they are only interested in the
"fast buck" that they can make from selling arms, food etc and will only
step in to protect those interests - your participation in two world wars
[late at that], Korea, Vietnam, the first Gulf war and the invasion of
Afghanistan and Iraq are proof of that.

If America really believes in *true* liberty, why has it not interfered in
Russian, Chinese and North Korean affairs (to name a few) to "liberate"
them?

I do live in a supposedly "free" [1] country, and that country was 'free'
and winning wars long before America was founded - and in fact, the birth of
the American dream was one of the few wars in history that America has won -
think about it.

As for "American blood and treasure made it possible" America has gained far
more "treasure" from her participation than it has ever expended (countries
have been made to pay dearly) and as for the spilling of American blood -
again far more innocent blood has been spilled by non-Americans by
Americans - again think about the Nuclear bombs, carpet bombing, cluster
bombing, agent orange and the indiscriminate use of weapons on civilian
populations - along with the American ideology that any non-American is a
nonentity.

[1] Made far more George Orwellian and dangerous by the knee jerk
reactions of one of the dumbest presidents you have ever had - along with
the poodle-like idolatry of one my countries leaders of that lying president
and the so-called "American dream".



Good night and have a pleasant Christmas - unlike many in America and the
world.

On 12/23/2010 10:34 AM, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Thu, 23 Dec 2010 01:12:15 -0000, "Tim W"
wrote:

Now we are with our families think a little of Bradley Manning. Seven months
in solitary confinement alone in a cell without a pillow or sheet, forbidden
even to exercise. May God bless him and keep him and may he know that we
think of him.

http://www.armycourtmartialdefense.i...y-manning.html

Tim W


You are definitely one warped liberal. It's a shame the
son-of-a-bitch is still breathing!

You don't think we ought to convict him before we kill him?

Disbelief wrote:

Using unlawful methods to try and get Assange extradited to the USA
or some of your politicians (Palin for one) is demanding unlawful
execution of Assange - and that is from the land of "freedom and free
speech". Hypocrites!!

I can't imagine what comic book you're reading.

The United States has not charged Assange with anything nor has it asked
that he be extradited to the US.

Nor will it.

Assange will get a pass from the US for the simple reason that any criminal
offense the USA can concoct to sanction Assange would apply equally well to
the NY Times. Assange did not steal these communications nor is there any
intimation he participated in any way with their theft. He merely publicized
them.

Same as the New York Times.

Further, as to your (erroneous) assertion that Palin demands the unlawful
execution of Assange, I should point out that killing a terrorist is not
unlawful. That said, what she ACTUALLY said, in contradistinction to your
claim, was:

"Why was he not pursued with the same urgency we pursue al Qaeda and Taliban
leaders?"

http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/201...k-assange.html

Lastly, you claim "hypocrisy" as if that's a bad thing. Hypocrisy gets a bad
rap.

Think football or baseball coach. If the coach could pitch or pass as well
as the player he's instructing, he'd be on the field making the big bucks!

Neil Brooks wrote:

Ditto the notion of "free markets." Absent the same sort of
intervention, the haves will -- at every opportunity -- screw the have
nots.

In the case of Venezula, the "nuts" screw the "haves."

Disbelief wrote:

I do live in a supposedly "free" [1] country, and that country was
'free' and winning wars long before America was founded - and in
fact, the birth of the American dream was one of the few wars in
history that America has won - think about it.

Heh! Keep believing that. America is the oldest democracy in the world (with
the possible exception of the Isle of Man).

I'll give you that American, India (the largest democracy in the world), and
other spots are the inheritors of the English Common Law and that shaped our
country well.

But countries with "freedom?" and "democracy?" well, we're the one with the
longest history and tradition.


As for "American blood and treasure made it possible" America has
gained far more "treasure" from her participation than it has ever
expended (countries have been made to pay dearly) and as for the
spilling of American blood - again far more innocent blood has been
spilled by non-Americans by Americans - again think about the Nuclear
bombs, carpet bombing, cluster bombing, agent orange and the
indiscriminate use of weapons on civilian populations - along with
the American ideology that any non-American is a nonentity.


Gives me goose-bumps. Nothing beats the smell of Napalm in the morning.

Larry W wrote:
In article ,
Tim Daneliuk wrote:
...snipped...
P.S. The founders of the US put their lives at risk to stand up to
abusive government. But - unlike Manning - they did so
consciously, without demanding a Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free card if
they got caught.


So you would have no sympathy for an American soldier during the
revolution who had been captured by the British? Or (for the sake of
argument) a British subject who was sympathetic to the Americans and
imprisoned for publishing information detrimental to the British
government?

Uh, sympathy? Yes. But them's the breaks. Lincoln imprisoned many who
published articles sympathetic to the South.

Consider also the "Alien & Sedition Acts"

Pay attention:

"And be it further enacted, Penalty on libelling the government That if any
person shall write, print, utter or publish, or shall cause or procure to be
written, printed, uttered or published, or shall knowingly and willingly
assist or aid in writing, printing, uttering or publishing any false,
scandalous and malicious writing or writings against the government of the
United States, or either house of the Congress of the United States, or the
President of the United States, with intent to defame the said government,
or either house of the said Congress, or the said President, or to bring
them, or either of them, into contempt or disrepute; or to excite against
them, or either or any of them, the hatred of the good people of the United
States, or to stir up sedition within the United States, or to excite any
unlawful combinations therein, for opposing or resisting any law of the
United States, or any act of the President of the United States, done in
pursuance of any such law, or of the powers in him vested by the
constitution of the United States, or to resist, oppose, or defeat any such
law or act, or to aid, encourage or abet any hostile designs of any foreign
nation against the United States, their people or government, then such
person, being thereof convicted before any court of the United States having
jurisdiction thereof, shall be punished by a fine not exceeding two thousand
dollars, and by imprisonment not exceeding two years."

Tim W wrote:
Now we are with our families think a little of Bradley Manning. Seven
months in solitary confinement alone in a cell without a pillow or
sheet, forbidden even to exercise. May God bless him and keep him and
may he know that we think of him.

http://www.armycourtmartialdefense.i...y-manning.html


I, like you, am a compassionate and forgiving person.

I believe Manning would be more comfortable chained to the wall.

Upside-down.

Only by confessing his sins - with encouragement if necessary - can he
comforted by the loving arms of Jesus, whom he will soon meet after the
confession.

On Sat, 25 Dec 2010 09:26:40 -0600, HeyBub wrote:

Consider also the "Alien & Sedition Acts"

Yep. Most folks don't realize what the US would look like if Jefferson
hadn't won the next election.

Taxation without representation? Check out the Whiskey Rebellion.
That's the first time the revolution spun in its grave :-).

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

"HeyBub" wrote in message
m...
Tim W wrote:
Now we are with our families think a little of Bradley Manning. Seven
months in solitary confinement alone in a cell without a pillow or
sheet, forbidden even to exercise. May God bless him and keep him and
may he know that we think of him.

http://www.armycourtmartialdefense.i...y-manning.html


I, like you, am a compassionate and forgiving person.

I believe Manning would be more comfortable chained to the wall.

Upside-down.

Only by confessing his sins - with encouragement if necessary - can he
comforted by the loving arms of Jesus, whom he will soon meet after the
confession.

There's a sort of cultural confusion here maybe? I was reading the other day
that America is the only country in the world where people take pride in
stupidity, because in America it makes you a 'good ole boy' , somehow gives
you credentials for home-spun wisdom. Like GWB always looked really dumb to
the rest of the world but to the US he was just being a regular kind of
Texan guy.

Or maybe you are just being a wind up for a laugh.

Tim w

Josepi wrote:
OK. let's take it higher. Let's talk about Hitler, the military
genius.

"Disbelief" wrote in message
...
But if Benedict Arnold had betrayed the English rather than the
American cause, would you then still consider him to be a traitor
*OR* would you call him a hero of the American cause?

Either way, he his both a traitor and a hero - much like today's so
called "terrorists" wouldn't you agree?

Well that's what I said! One countries *traitor* is another countries
*hero*.

Well then your point was well made.


"Disbelief" wrote in message
...
Well that's what I said! One countries *traitor* is another countries
*hero*.


Josepi wrote:
OK. let's take it higher. Let's talk about Hitler, the military
genius.

"Disbelief" wrote in message
...
But if Benedict Arnold had betrayed the English rather than the
American cause, would you then still consider him to be a traitor
*OR* would you call him a hero of the American cause?

Either way, he his both a traitor and a hero - much like today's so
called "terrorists" wouldn't you agree?

Tim W wrote the following:
"Roger" wrote in message
...

You are definitely one warped liberal. It's a shame the
son-of-a-bitch is still breathing!



Maybe we could put Jane Fonda in an adjoining cell then they could just
bleed their little hearts out together.



You know I never found Jane Fonda in any way attractive. Does that make me
warped as well?

Tim W




Barbarella 1968
http://www.imdb.com/video/screenplay/vi3858367257/

--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

HeyBub wrote:
Disbelief wrote:

Using unlawful methods to try and get Assange extradited to the USA
or some of your politicians (Palin for one) is demanding unlawful
execution of Assange - and that is from the land of "freedom and free
speech". Hypocrites!!

I can't imagine what comic book you're reading.

The United States has not charged Assange with anything nor has it
asked that he be extradited to the US.

Nor will it.

Assange will get a pass from the US for the simple reason that any
criminal offense the USA can concoct to sanction Assange would apply
equally well to the NY Times. Assange did not steal these
communications nor is there any intimation he participated in any way
with their theft. He merely publicized them.

Same as the New York Times.

Further, as to your (erroneous) assertion that Palin demands the
unlawful execution of Assange, I should point out that killing a
terrorist is not unlawful. That said, what she ACTUALLY said, in
contradistinction to your claim, was:

"Why was he not pursued with the same urgency we pursue al Qaeda and
Taliban leaders?"

http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/201...k-assange.html

Lastly, you claim "hypocrisy" as if that's a bad thing. Hypocrisy
gets a bad rap.

Think football or baseball coach. If the coach could pitch or pass as
well as the player he's instructing, he'd be on the field making the
big bucks!

since signing a book deal, how is he any different than a common fence
(accepting stolen goods for personal gain in reselling)?

chaniarts wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
Disbelief wrote:

Using unlawful methods to try and get Assange extradited to the USA
or some of your politicians (Palin for one) is demanding unlawful
execution of Assange - and that is from the land of "freedom and
free speech". Hypocrites!!

I can't imagine what comic book you're reading.

The United States has not charged Assange with anything nor has it
asked that he be extradited to the US.

Nor will it.

Assange will get a pass from the US for the simple reason that any
criminal offense the USA can concoct to sanction Assange would apply
equally well to the NY Times. Assange did not steal these
communications nor is there any intimation he participated in any way
with their theft. He merely publicized them.

Same as the New York Times.

Further, as to your (erroneous) assertion that Palin demands the
unlawful execution of Assange, I should point out that killing a
terrorist is not unlawful. That said, what she ACTUALLY said, in
contradistinction to your claim, was:

"Why was he not pursued with the same urgency we pursue al Qaeda and
Taliban leaders?"

http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/201...k-assange.html

Lastly, you claim "hypocrisy" as if that's a bad thing. Hypocrisy
gets a bad rap.

Think football or baseball coach. If the coach could pitch or pass as
well as the player he's instructing, he'd be on the field making the
big bucks!

since signing a book deal, how is he any different than a common fence
(accepting stolen goods for personal gain in reselling)?

A good point. Obscure, but a good point nevertheless.

Still, I'd remind you many politicians have written books...