http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...adlines&sub=AR

Dave in Houston

"Dave In Texas" wrote in message
...


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...adlines&sub=AR

Dave in Houston

Lucky for her and her parents.

On Jun 12, 9:32*am, "Leon" wrote:


Lucky for her and her parents.

Lucky, indeed. I have to confess I did breathe a sigh of relief when
they found that kid.

In the end though, she did get what she wanted. Attention, attention,
attention.

Her parents will get the same. Now there will be a "heroic" twist to
the story, which will no doubt be much more bankable than if she made
it. I can already see Oprah asking the parents "what they were
thinking" and listening to them reason out they weren't the type of
parents to be dreams stealers.

I can imagine the talk show hosts asking her if she was ever scared,
while displaying her book on the desk.

They better get cracking, though. There is another young girl ( is
there ANYTHING fully empowered children can't do these days? ) that
wanted to do the same trip at 13. The Dutch courts where she lives
blocked her try. (Dream stealing *******s... she even told them it
was her lifelong dream... )

She has since run away from home with her boat to try, but without the
millions of dollars of gear and logistic provided to Abby, didn't get
too far.

She has proudly announced that it is a matter of time, and once she
gets it back together, she will board "The Guppy" and make another
attempt. No one will steal the dreams of that now 14 year old girl.

Sadly for Abby, if she makes it the Dutch girl will eclipse ALL the
attention Abby will enjoy. After Abby blowing her horn about staring
down her fears, waiting heroically to be rescued, and mastering her
emotions while waiting for rescue, in the end she has just wrecked a
very expensive boat.

Almost making achieving that goal is the same as almost winning the
Super Bowl, almost winning the World Series, almost winning the
Stanley Cup. Soon, no one will remember her name.

Although.... there is an alternative to the attention they crave.
Surely I can't be the only one to remember the parent/child combo that
tried to fly across the USA in a plane. It was always that child's
dream to fly across the USA, for all of her seven years on this
planet.

To earn her dream title, the 7 year old had to take off and land the
plane. She was an inspiration to small children everywhere, classes
followed her on television, she was covered by the morning shows that
charted her progress. Girl Power was a wonderful thing to see, no
doubt. Little girls everywhere were inspired to do all kinds of
wonderful things.

Then she crashed the plane and killed both her Dad, herself, and a
flight instructor. BUT - now they indeed have a valid, permanent
place in the record books.

They even created the impetus in Congress to pass a law that will keep
others from challenging their record, as it makes it illegal in the
USA to have children that young fly. How many people can inspire
actual binding laws? So their efforts will always be a part of
history.

Mission accomplished.

Ted Koppel had this to say: (from Time magazine)

To its credit, ABC confronted the issue of whether television was complicit in the tragedy. On Nightline, Ted Koppel spoke for the network when he said, "We need to begin by acknowledging our own contribution...We feed one another: those of you looking for publicity and those of us looking for stories." Then he posed the question of "whether we in the media...by our ravenous attention contribute to this phenomenon," and answered it himself: "We did."

Read mo http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...#ixzz0qfBGuHgW

Fear not. In this empowering, vapid, society of attention seekers,
there will be others to pick up the slack Abby left on her trip.
Since there is no glory in simply sailing around the world (defeating
the well hashed quote "I sail for the love of sailing") I doubt she
will try again if no TV cameras are present. I don't know how
interested she would be in doing that for nothing other than the
enjoyment, even if was her lifelong dream.

Can't wait until we have our very own 10, 12, or 13 year old from the
USA trying that again. After all, if they can climb mountains,
wouldn't it be a double standard to prevent someone that young from
trying another sailing record?

Robert

wrote:
On Jun 12, 9:32 am, "Leon" wrote:

Lucky for her and her parents.

Lucky, indeed. I have to confess I did breathe a sigh of relief when
they found that kid.

In the end though, she did get what she wanted. Attention, attention,
attention.
....

The aforementioned self-aggrandizement which irritating as hell aside,
the thing that bothered me about this whole escapade was that apparently
ignored sound advice to arrange departure to avoid being where she was
during the heavy weather season. No excuse for stupidity imo...

--

wrote

Ted Koppel had this to say: (from Time magazine)

I doubt she
will try again if no TV cameras are present. I don't know how
interested she would be in doing that for nothing other than the
enjoyment, even if was her lifelong dream.

Yes, that says a lot.

On 6/12/2010 1:14 PM, wrote:
On Jun 12, 9:32 am, wrote:


Lucky for her and her parents.

Lucky, indeed. I have to confess I did breathe a sigh of relief when
they found that kid.

In the end though, she did get what she wanted. Attention, attention,
attention.

Her parents will get the same. Now there will be a "heroic" twist to
the story, which will no doubt be much more bankable than if she made
it. I can already see Oprah asking the parents "what they were
thinking" and listening to them reason out they weren't the type of
parents to be dreams stealers.

I can imagine the talk show hosts asking her if she was ever scared,
while displaying her book on the desk.

They better get cracking, though. There is another young girl ( is
there ANYTHING fully empowered children can't do these days? ) that
wanted to do the same trip at 13. The Dutch courts where she lives
blocked her try. (Dream stealing *******s... she even told them it
was her lifelong dream... )

She has since run away from home with her boat to try, but without the
millions of dollars of gear and logistic provided to Abby, didn't get
too far.

She has proudly announced that it is a matter of time, and once she
gets it back together, she will board "The Guppy" and make another
attempt. No one will steal the dreams of that now 14 year old girl.

The courts handed the Dutch government their asses on that one--they're
not going to be able to block her again.

Sadly for Abby, if she makes it the Dutch girl will eclipse ALL the
attention Abby will enjoy. After Abby blowing her horn about staring
down her fears, waiting heroically to be rescued, and mastering her
emotions while waiting for rescue, in the end she has just wrecked a
very expensive boat.

Not really. Dekker is not going for a nonstop, unaccompanied
circumnavigation--she's going port-to-port in company with another boat.

Dekker may end up the youngest solo circumnavigator, but Jessica Watson
remains the youngest nonstop solo circumnavigator.

And the boat isn't particularly "wrecked" or particularly expensive.
Needs a mast and some rigging and probably some sails. One sail (not
one trip, one fabric assembly used for propulsion) on a competitive
maxi-boat costs more than her entire attempt.

Almost making achieving that goal is the same as almost winning the
Super Bowl, almost winning the World Series, almost winning the
Stanley Cup. Soon, no one will remember her name.

Although.... there is an alternative to the attention they crave.
Surely I can't be the only one to remember the parent/child combo that
tried to fly across the USA in a plane. It was always that child's
dream to fly across the USA, for all of her seven years on this
planet.

To earn her dream title, the 7 year old had to take off and land the
plane. She was an inspiration to small children everywhere, classes
followed her on television, she was covered by the morning shows that
charted her progress. Girl Power was a wonderful thing to see, no
doubt. Little girls everywhere were inspired to do all kinds of
wonderful things.

Then she crashed the plane and killed both her Dad, herself, and a
flight instructor.

That's a nice fiction, but in fact what killed them was an overloaded
plane at a high density altititude in bad weather. There's not even any
real reason to believe that the kid was flying the plane--she had a
flight instructor sitting next to her with a full set of controls.
Chuck Yeager may not have been able to pull that one out.

BUT - now they indeed have a valid, permanent
place in the record books.

They even created the impetus in Congress to pass a law that will keep
others from challenging their record, as it makes it illegal in the
USA to have children that young fly.

Not quite. It's illegal for anyone not holding a private license or
better and a valid medical to manipulate the controls in "any record
attempt, aeronautical competition, or aeronautical feat".

How many people can inspire
actual binding laws? So their efforts will always be a part of
history.

Mission accomplished.

Ted Koppel had this to say: (from Time magazine)

To its credit, ABC confronted the issue of whether television was complicit in the tragedy. On Nightline, Ted Koppel spoke for the network when he said, "We need to begin by acknowledging our own contribution...We feed one another: those of you looking for publicity and those of us looking for stories." Then he posed the question of "whether we in the media...by our ravenous attention contribute to this phenomenon," and answered it himself: "We did."

Read mo http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...#ixzz0qfBGuHgW

Fear not. In this empowering, vapid, society of attention seekers,
there will be others to pick up the slack Abby left on her trip.
Since there is no glory in simply sailing around the world (defeating
the well hashed quote "I sail for the love of sailing") I doubt she
will try again if no TV cameras are present. I don't know how
interested she would be in doing that for nothing other than the
enjoyment, even if was her lifelong dream.



Can't wait until we have our very own 10, 12, or 13 year old from the
USA trying that again. After all, if they can climb mountains,
wouldn't it be a double standard to prevent someone that young from
trying another sailing record?

And if she pulls it off, then what?

This business of treating kids as something other than miniature adults
is recent.

wrote in message
...
On Jun 12, 9:32 am, "Leon" wrote:

snip


Fear not. In this empowering, vapid, society of attention seekers,
there will be others to pick up the slack Abby left on her trip.
Since there is no glory in simply sailing around the world (defeating
the well hashed quote "I sail for the love of sailing") I doubt she
will try again if no TV cameras are present. I don't know how
interested she would be in doing that for nothing other than the
enjoyment, even if was her lifelong dream.

Can't wait until we have our very own 10, 12, or 13 year old from the
USA trying that again. After all, if they can climb mountains,
wouldn't it be a double standard to prevent someone that young from
trying another sailing record?

Robert



Fear not, I am sure the Chinese are already working on a 10 year old
completing the task and she will be presented as a 16 year old. ;~)

On Jun 12, 1:20 pm, "J. Clarke" wrote:

And the boat isn't particularly "wrecked" or particularly expensive.
Needs a mast and some rigging and probably some sails. One sail (not
one trip, one fabric assembly used for propulsion) on a competitive
maxi-boat costs more than her entire attempt.

Using the same boating comparison logic instead of an actual dollar,
it was not as expensive as an aircraft carrier (a very expensive
boat), or and nuclear submarine, or even just the super sized personal
yachts such as the Dubai.

The used Open 40's (not to be confused with the Class 40's) of that
vintage seem to be in the area of $425,000 to $450,000. The Anasazi
Girl seems to be almost as fully equipped as Abby's but seem to be
missing the pricey (OK, to me) auto pilot features, etc. There are
two Open 40's for sale he

http://www.owenclarkedesign.com/Open40AnasaziGirl

And another questions comes to mind; of the boat is not wrecked, why
would they even consider sinking it?

Link to the LA Times article:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/39olxkn

Apparently the boat (even at it's value of +/- $425,000 may not be
worth saving, and might be left for salvage. If it isn't worth towing
back, (think of this as your car), wouldn't you call it a wreck?
Semantics may vary, but to me, if it suffered physical damage to the
point of it being unable to perform it's intended task, whether it is
a car, boat, or train, I would say it was wrecked.

You will probably say severely damaged.

Although I could not find the exact article, I read that the cost of
her refitted and fully updated electronics package was about
$600,000. This was in a interview that was done before she took off.

So say it was only worth $500,000. I guess in today's brave new world
of "billions" for everything imaginable, a casual 1/2 million tossed
away isn't much.

Still, no matter how I try to be an expansive thinker, a half million
dollar toy is expensive to me.

YMMV.

It was always that child's
dream to fly across the USA, for all of her seven years on this
planet.

To earn her dream title, the 7 year old had to take off and land the
plane. She was an inspiration to small children everywhere, classes
followed her on television, she was covered by the morning shows that
charted her progress. Girl Power was a wonderful thing to see, no
doubt. Little girls everywhere were inspired to do all kinds of
wonderful things.

Then she crashed the plane and killed both her Dad, herself, and a
flight instructor.

That's a nice fiction,

Really? What part is fiction? Don't you remember the news coverage
she got? School kids charted her progress, teachers made maps, etc.,
to show how she was doing. There are still articles on the 'net that
talk about her classmates following along.

She constantly wore her pink "Girls Fly" cap while going on her trip.

In fact, the day they crashed, they had just left a large group of
reporters that were eagerly relaying every scrap of information they
could get. Every minute of her flight was covered for all to see.

And of course they did crash.

but in fact what killed them was an overloaded
plane at a high density altititude in bad weather. There's not even any
real reason to believe that the kid was flying the plane--she had a
flight instructor sitting next to her with a full set of controls.
Chuck Yeager may not have been able to pull that one out.

You aren't saying the Dubroffs would pull a fast one are you? Surely
Jessica was flying...

In fact, there are a great deal of statements from fellow fliers and
colleagues of Reid that think he was not flying. It may be loyalty to
him, but they say that he was simply too good and too experienced as a
pilot to crash under challenging, but not impossible conditions.

The litany of mistakes made by the CPIC was long enough I hope the
child was flying and not Reid.

Bottom line; we'll never know.


Can't wait until we have our very own 10, 12, or 13 year old from the
USA trying that again. After all, if they can climb mountains,
wouldn't it be a double standard to prevent someone that young from
trying another sailing record?

And if she pulls it off, then what?

I am thinking of a mother nursing a newborn going on the next moon
shot so her child can claim it was the youngest to go to the moon.

Only to be topped by a fetus in suspended animation to go to Mars and
back.

This business of treating kids as something other than miniature adults
is recent.

For me, I would add that the business of exploiting your kids for your
own gratification is nothing new.

Robert

Dave In Texas wrote:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...adlines&sub=AR

Dave in Houston

It remains to be seen whether she ASKED to be rescued.

She may be like the 101st Airborne at Bastonge when George Patton drove up:
"Who invited you to the party?"

HeyBub wrote:
....

It remains to be seen whether she ASKED to be rescued.

???

Demasted in high seas halfway between Africa and Australia and you think
there was a choice to be made????

--

wrote in message
...
On Jun 12, 9:32 am, "Leon" wrote:


Lucky for her and her parents.

Lucky, indeed. I have to confess I did breathe a sigh of relief when
they found that kid.

In the end though, she did get what she wanted. Attention, attention,
attention.

Very well put - all of it.

"Leon" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
On Jun 12, 9:32 am, "Leon" wrote:

snip


Fear not. In this empowering, vapid, society of attention seekers,
there will be others to pick up the slack Abby left on her trip.
Since there is no glory in simply sailing around the world (defeating
the well hashed quote "I sail for the love of sailing") I doubt she
will try again if no TV cameras are present. I don't know how
interested she would be in doing that for nothing other than the
enjoyment, even if was her lifelong dream.

Can't wait until we have our very own 10, 12, or 13 year old from the
USA trying that again. After all, if they can climb mountains,
wouldn't it be a double standard to prevent someone that young from
trying another sailing record?

Robert



Fear not, I am sure the Chinese are already working on a 10 year old
completing the task and she will be presented as a 16 year old. ;~)




No, no, you got that backwards ...

"HeyBub" wrote in message
m...
Dave In Texas wrote:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...adlines&sub=AR

Dave in Houston

It remains to be seen whether she ASKED to be rescued.

She may be like the 101st Airborne at Bastonge when George Patton drove
up: "Who invited you to the party?"


She lit off her emergency beacons. That is Asking. If you say 'Nevermind!'
when rescuers shows up they tend to get really honked!

On 6/12/2010 6:17 PM, wrote:
On Jun 12, 1:20 pm, "J. wrote:

And the boat isn't particularly "wrecked" or particularly expensive.
Needs a mast and some rigging and probably some sails. One sail (not
one trip, one fabric assembly used for propulsion) on a competitive
maxi-boat costs more than her entire attempt.

Using the same boating comparison logic instead of an actual dollar,
it was not as expensive as an aircraft carrier (a very expensive
boat), or and nuclear submarine, or even just the super sized personal
yachts such as the Dubai.

The used Open 40's (not to be confused with the Class 40's) of that
vintage seem to be in the area of $425,000 to $450,000. The Anasazi
Girl seems to be almost as fully equipped as Abby's but seem to be
missing the pricey (OK, to me) auto pilot features, etc. There are
two Open 40's for sale he

http://www.owenclarkedesign.com/Open40AnasaziGirl

And another questions comes to mind; of the boat is not wrecked, why
would they even consider sinking it?

Link to the LA Times article:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/39olxkn

Apparently the boat (even at it's value of +/- $425,000 may not be
worth saving, and might be left for salvage. If it isn't worth towing
back, (think of this as your car), wouldn't you call it a wreck?
Semantics may vary, but to me, if it suffered physical damage to the
point of it being unable to perform it's intended task, whether it is
a car, boat, or train, I would say it was wrecked.

You will probably say severely damaged.

Although I could not find the exact article, I read that the cost of
her refitted and fully updated electronics package was about
$600,000. This was in a interview that was done before she took off.

So say it was only worth $500,000. I guess in today's brave new world
of "billions" for everything imaginable, a casual 1/2 million tossed
away isn't much.

Still, no matter how I try to be an expansive thinker, a half million
dollar toy is expensive to me.

I found the ad a while back in which the owner of the boat at the time
was asking something like 120K. Can't find it now though.

YMMV.

It was always that child's
dream to fly across the USA, for all of her seven years on this
planet.

To earn her dream title, the 7 year old had to take off and land the
plane. She was an inspiration to small children everywhere, classes
followed her on television, she was covered by the morning shows that
charted her progress. Girl Power was a wonderful thing to see, no
doubt. Little girls everywhere were inspired to do all kinds of
wonderful things.

Then she crashed the plane and killed both her Dad, herself, and a
flight instructor.

That's a nice fiction,

Really? What part is fiction?

That she killed anybody.

Don't you remember the news coverage
she got?

I remember a lot of news coverage. However if you find the NTSB report
they concluded that the cause of the crash was not an inexperience pilot
but an overloaded aircraft at a high density altitude. Of course the
newspapers know far more about the causes of plane crashes than the
professional accident investigators, so we should always believe the
newspapers.

School kids charted her progress, teachers made maps, etc.,
to show how she was doing. There are still articles on the 'net that
talk about her classmates following along.

Which has no relevance at all to the truth of the notion that her
piloting skills or lack of same were the cause of the crash.

She constantly wore her pink "Girls Fly" cap while going on her trip.

If I wear a hat that says "Barack Obama" does that make me President?

In fact, the day they crashed, they had just left a large group of
reporters that were eagerly relaying every scrap of information they
could get. Every minute of her flight was covered for all to see.

It was? So how many reporters died in the crash and where is the
footage showing her at the controls as it progressed? Sorry, they
didn't "cover every minute of her flight". The covered her arrivals and
departures but really had no idea what was going on in the cockpit at
any given moment.

And of course they did crash.

So did this 2000 hour pilot, for the same reasons:

http://www.aopa.org/asf/epilot_acc/lax07fa258.html

but in fact what killed them was an overloaded
plane at a high density altititude in bad weather. There's not even any
real reason to believe that the kid was flying the plane--she had a
flight instructor sitting next to her with a full set of controls.
Chuck Yeager may not have been able to pull that one out.

You aren't saying the Dubroffs would pull a fast one are you? Surely
Jessica was flying...

Doesn't matter who was flying. Damned few pilots are good enough to
pull a save under those circumstances.

In fact, there are a great deal of statements from fellow fliers and
colleagues of Reid that think he was not flying. It may be loyalty to
him, but they say that he was simply too good and too experienced as a
pilot to crash under challenging, but not impossible conditions.

What makes you think that the conditions were not impossible? If you
look at the above video you'll see a pilot with more experience than
Reid lose it under the same conditions.

The litany of mistakes made by the CPIC was long enough I hope the
child was flying and not Reid.

There were, according to the NTSB, three mistakes. 100 pounds
overloaded, high density altitude, and bad weather.

Bottom line; we'll never know.

But you'd rather believe the newspapers and the opinions of people who
were not there and did not investigate the crash over the findings of
the crash investigators.


Can't wait until we have our very own 10, 12, or 13 year old from the
USA trying that again. After all, if they can climb mountains,
wouldn't it be a double standard to prevent someone that young from
trying another sailing record?

And if she pulls it off, then what?

I am thinking of a mother nursing a newborn going on the next moon
shot so her child can claim it was the youngest to go to the moon.

In 1920 you would have said the same thing about a mother nursing a
newborn flying across the Atlantic. Now it's an everyday occurrance.

Only to be topped by a fetus in suspended animation to go to Mars and
back.

Sure, who wants to be stuck with a squalling baby on a spaceship for two
years?

This business of treating kids as something other than miniature adults
is recent.

For me, I would add that the business of exploiting your kids for your
own gratification is nothing new.

Yeah, right, every time a kid decides to do something it's because the
kid was being exploited by somebody. Never occurs to you that the kid
may be doing something that was his or her own idea.

On 6/12/2010 7:32 PM, HeyBub wrote:
Dave In Texas wrote:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...adlines&sub=AR

Dave in Houston

It remains to be seen whether she ASKED to be rescued.

She may be like the 101st Airborne at Bastonge when George Patton drove up:
"Who invited you to the party?"

Yup--the downside of EPIRBs is that once one triggers, if your radio's
out there's no way to stop the search until somebody finds you and
"rescues" you.

On 6/12/2010 7:57 PM, dpb wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
...

It remains to be seen whether she ASKED to be rescued.

???

Demasted in high seas halfway between Africa and Australia and you think
there was a choice to be made????

Yep, rig a jury mast and creep to the nearest land. Bligh had a lot
less to work with than she did and a far less capable hull under him and
yet he made it as far as she needed to go.

On 6/12/2010 8:15 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
"HeyBub" wrote in message
m...
Dave In Texas wrote:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...adlines&sub=AR


Dave in Houston

It remains to be seen whether she ASKED to be rescued.

She may be like the 101st Airborne at Bastonge when George Patton
drove up: "Who invited you to the party?"


She lit off her emergency beacons. That is Asking. If you say
'Nevermind!' when rescuers shows up they tend to get really honked!

Did she light them off or did they light themselves off? They are
designed to self-activate in an emergency you know.

On Sat, 12 Jun 2010 20:47:06 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

On 6/12/2010 6:17 PM, wrote:
On Jun 12, 1:20 pm, "J. wrote:

And the boat isn't particularly "wrecked" or particularly expensive.
Needs a mast and some rigging and probably some sails. One sail (not
one trip, one fabric assembly used for propulsion) on a competitive
maxi-boat costs more than her entire attempt.

Using the same boating comparison logic instead of an actual dollar,
it was not as expensive as an aircraft carrier (a very expensive
boat), or and nuclear submarine, or even just the super sized personal
yachts such as the Dubai.

The used Open 40's (not to be confused with the Class 40's) of that
vintage seem to be in the area of $425,000 to $450,000. The Anasazi
Girl seems to be almost as fully equipped as Abby's but seem to be
missing the pricey (OK, to me) auto pilot features, etc. There are
two Open 40's for sale he

http://www.owenclarkedesign.com/Open40AnasaziGirl

And another questions comes to mind; of the boat is not wrecked, why
would they even consider sinking it?

Link to the LA Times article:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/39olxkn

Apparently the boat (even at it's value of +/- $425,000 may not be
worth saving, and might be left for salvage. If it isn't worth towing
back, (think of this as your car), wouldn't you call it a wreck?
Semantics may vary, but to me, if it suffered physical damage to the
point of it being unable to perform it's intended task, whether it is
a car, boat, or train, I would say it was wrecked.

You will probably say severely damaged.

Although I could not find the exact article, I read that the cost of
her refitted and fully updated electronics package was about
$600,000. This was in a interview that was done before she took off.

So say it was only worth $500,000. I guess in today's brave new world
of "billions" for everything imaginable, a casual 1/2 million tossed
away isn't much.

Still, no matter how I try to be an expansive thinker, a half million
dollar toy is expensive to me.

I found the ad a while back in which the owner of the boat at the time
was asking something like 120K. Can't find it now though.

YMMV.

It was always that child's
dream to fly across the USA, for all of her seven years on this
planet.

To earn her dream title, the 7 year old had to take off and land the
plane. She was an inspiration to small children everywhere, classes
followed her on television, she was covered by the morning shows that
charted her progress. Girl Power was a wonderful thing to see, no
doubt. Little girls everywhere were inspired to do all kinds of
wonderful things.

Then she crashed the plane and killed both her Dad, herself, and a
flight instructor.

That's a nice fiction,

Really? What part is fiction?

That she killed anybody.

Don't you remember the news coverage
she got?

I remember a lot of news coverage. However if you find the NTSB report
they concluded that the cause of the crash was not an inexperience pilot
but an overloaded aircraft at a high density altitude. Of course the
newspapers know far more about the causes of plane crashes than the
professional accident investigators, so we should always believe the
newspapers.

Isn't the aircraft takeoff weight the responsibility of the pilot? Seems only
an inexperienced (incompetent) pilot would risk others' lives on an overloaded
plane.

School kids charted her progress, teachers made maps, etc.,
to show how she was doing. There are still articles on the 'net that
talk about her classmates following along.

Which has no relevance at all to the truth of the notion that her
piloting skills or lack of same were the cause of the crash.

See above.

I could repeat the above line, but chose to snip instead

On Sat, 12 Jun 2010 21:02:16 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

On 6/12/2010 8:15 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
"HeyBub" wrote in message
m...
Dave In Texas wrote:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...adlines&sub=AR


Dave in Houston

It remains to be seen whether she ASKED to be rescued.

She may be like the 101st Airborne at Bastonge when George Patton
drove up: "Who invited you to the party?"


She lit off her emergency beacons. That is Asking. If you say
'Nevermind!' when rescuers shows up they tend to get really honked!

Did she light them off or did they light themselves off? They are
designed to self-activate in an emergency you know.

It was my understanding that these particular beacons were manual. Others
would have been activated automatically by water contact. This is one of the
reasons her parents believed that she was OK.

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
On 6/12/2010 7:57 PM, dpb wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
...

It remains to be seen whether she ASKED to be rescued.

???

Demasted in high seas halfway between Africa and Australia and you think
there was a choice to be made????

Yep, rig a jury mast and creep to the nearest land. Bligh had a lot less
to work with than she did and a far less capable hull under him and yet he
made it as far as she needed to go.




Bligh had been at sea for 17 years when he was set adrift. He was also an
excellent navigator. And he made it farther - 3,600 miles.

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
On 6/12/2010 8:15 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
"HeyBub" wrote in message
m...
Dave In Texas wrote:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...adlines&sub=AR


Dave in Houston

It remains to be seen whether she ASKED to be rescued.

She may be like the 101st Airborne at Bastonge when George Patton
drove up: "Who invited you to the party?"


She lit off her emergency beacons. That is Asking. If you say
'Nevermind!' when rescuers shows up they tend to get really honked!

Did she light them off or did they light themselves off? They are
designed to self-activate in an emergency you know.


What I read said she activated them. Which makes sense. She was reportedly
on the satellite phone and was cut off due to the mast/antenna being carried
away. Apparently an hour or so later both beacons were activated.

On 6/12/2010 9:45 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
On 6/12/2010 7:57 PM, dpb wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
...

It remains to be seen whether she ASKED to be rescued.

???

Demasted in high seas halfway between Africa and Australia and you think
there was a choice to be made????

Yep, rig a jury mast and creep to the nearest land. Bligh had a lot
less to work with than she did and a far less capable hull under him
and yet he made it as far as she needed to go.




Bligh had been at sea for 17 years when he was set adrift. He was also
an excellent navigator. And he made it farther - 3,600 miles.

Doesn't matter. The point is that there is a choice--being dismasted
isn't the same as the boat breaking in half.

On 6/12/2010 9:50 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
On 6/12/2010 8:15 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
"HeyBub" wrote in message
m...
Dave In Texas wrote:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...adlines&sub=AR



Dave in Houston

It remains to be seen whether she ASKED to be rescued.

She may be like the 101st Airborne at Bastonge when George Patton
drove up: "Who invited you to the party?"


She lit off her emergency beacons. That is Asking. If you say
'Nevermind!' when rescuers shows up they tend to get really honked!

Did she light them off or did they light themselves off? They are
designed to self-activate in an emergency you know.


What I read said she activated them. Which makes sense. She was
reportedly on the satellite phone and was cut off due to the
mast/antenna being carried away. Apparently an hour or so later both
beacons were activated.

The knockdown could have actuated them though--we don't know that the
dismasting was simultaneous with the satphone shutdown.

A lot of assumptions being made, and you know what "assume" does.

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
On 6/12/2010 9:45 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
On 6/12/2010 7:57 PM, dpb wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
...

It remains to be seen whether she ASKED to be rescued.

???

Demasted in high seas halfway between Africa and Australia and you
think
there was a choice to be made????

Yep, rig a jury mast and creep to the nearest land. Bligh had a lot
less to work with than she did and a far less capable hull under him
and yet he made it as far as she needed to go.




Bligh had been at sea for 17 years when he was set adrift. He was also
an excellent navigator. And he made it farther - 3,600 miles.

Doesn't matter. The point is that there is a choice--being dismasted
isn't the same as the boat breaking in half.


In her case it may as well be. Except for the emergency beacons.

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
On 6/12/2010 9:50 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
On 6/12/2010 8:15 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
"HeyBub" wrote in message
m...
Dave In Texas wrote:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...adlines&sub=AR



Dave in Houston

It remains to be seen whether she ASKED to be rescued.

She may be like the 101st Airborne at Bastonge when George Patton
drove up: "Who invited you to the party?"


She lit off her emergency beacons. That is Asking. If you say
'Nevermind!' when rescuers shows up they tend to get really honked!

Did she light them off or did they light themselves off? They are
designed to self-activate in an emergency you know.


What I read said she activated them. Which makes sense. She was
reportedly on the satellite phone and was cut off due to the
mast/antenna being carried away. Apparently an hour or so later both
beacons were activated.

The knockdown could have actuated them though--we don't know that the
dismasting was simultaneous with the satphone shutdown.

A lot of assumptions being made, and you know what "assume" does.


Uh, huh. Spent a fair amount of time in both corners.

wrote:
On Sat, 12 Jun 2010 18:32:15 -0500, "HeyBub"
wrote:

Dave In Texas wrote:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...adlines&sub=AR

Dave in Houston
It remains to be seen whether she ASKED to be rescued.


Nope. She activated TWO emergency signaling devices (EPIRB) MANUALLY.

That's how you ask to be rescued at sea.


Hi Dog.

I gave up on the cruising group.
Good to see you again.

I've decided not to carry EPBIR.

I'll make it - or I won't.



--

Richard Lamb

On 6/12/2010 11:11 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
On 6/12/2010 9:45 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
On 6/12/2010 7:57 PM, dpb wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
...

It remains to be seen whether she ASKED to be rescued.

???

Demasted in high seas halfway between Africa and Australia and you
think
there was a choice to be made????

Yep, rig a jury mast and creep to the nearest land. Bligh had a lot
less to work with than she did and a far less capable hull under him
and yet he made it as far as she needed to go.




Bligh had been at sea for 17 years when he was set adrift. He was also
an excellent navigator. And he made it farther - 3,600 miles.

Doesn't matter. The point is that there is a choice--being dismasted
isn't the same as the boat breaking in half.


In her case it may as well be. Except for the emergency beacons.

There you're assuming things again. While she does come across as
someone who has little mechanical aptitude, that impression might be
mistaken.

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
On 6/12/2010 11:11 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
On 6/12/2010 9:45 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
On 6/12/2010 7:57 PM, dpb wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
...

It remains to be seen whether she ASKED to be rescued.

???

Demasted in high seas halfway between Africa and Australia and you
think
there was a choice to be made????

Yep, rig a jury mast and creep to the nearest land. Bligh had a lot
less to work with than she did and a far less capable hull under him
and yet he made it as far as she needed to go.




Bligh had been at sea for 17 years when he was set adrift. He was also
an excellent navigator. And he made it farther - 3,600 miles.

Doesn't matter. The point is that there is a choice--being dismasted
isn't the same as the boat breaking in half.


In her case it may as well be. Except for the emergency beacons.

There you're assuming things again. While she does come across as someone
who has little mechanical aptitude, that impression might be mistaken.



I was thinking more the navigational skills. Bligh got his in something like
seven years with Cook.

On Sat, 12 Jun 2010 20:47:06 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:
Yeah, right, every time a kid decides to do something it's because the
kid was being exploited by somebody. Never occurs to you that the kid
may be doing something that was his or her own idea.

Another poor attempt at reasoning. How many kids would drink, have
sex, do drugs and drive the family car while underage if there was no
adult there to supervise them. The answer is practically all of them.
Adults most important job is to advise and raise their children. Any
type of young age activity that gets the media attention like this one
did is exploitation in part or in whole by an adult. Otherwise it
usually doesn't happen.

You seem particularly apt at displaying a lack of common sense. Guess
that's no surprise.

On 6/13/2010 1:10 AM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
On 6/12/2010 11:11 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
On 6/12/2010 9:45 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
On 6/12/2010 7:57 PM, dpb wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
...

It remains to be seen whether she ASKED to be rescued.

???

Demasted in high seas halfway between Africa and Australia and you
think
there was a choice to be made????

Yep, rig a jury mast and creep to the nearest land. Bligh had a lot
less to work with than she did and a far less capable hull under him
and yet he made it as far as she needed to go.




Bligh had been at sea for 17 years when he was set adrift. He was also
an excellent navigator. And he made it farther - 3,600 miles.

Doesn't matter. The point is that there is a choice--being dismasted
isn't the same as the boat breaking in half.


In her case it may as well be. Except for the emergency beacons.

There you're assuming things again. While she does come across as
someone who has little mechanical aptitude, that impression might be
mistaken.



I was thinking more the navigational skills. Bligh got his in something
like seven years with Cook.

So what leads you to believe that her navigational skills were
insufficient to the task of hitting Australia?

J. Clarke wrote:
On 6/12/2010 7:57 PM, dpb wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
...

It remains to be seen whether she ASKED to be rescued.

???

Demasted in high seas halfway between Africa and Australia and you think
there was a choice to be made????

Yep, rig a jury mast and creep to the nearest land. ...


Oh, yeah, right!

Call me cynical, but I don't think this girl would have a clue how to
even begin to do the first or have any idea how to sail w/o the
electronics to tell here where land might even be...

--

dpb wrote:
....

Call me cynical, but I don't think this girl would have a clue how to
even begin to do the first or have any idea how to sail w/o the
electronics to tell here where land might even be...

And, just to make it clear, no, this old wheat farmer wouldn't have a
clue, either, and ain't clamin' would've made it as far as she did, even
(but then again, woulda' known better as well).

I just don't think she's ever sailed enough w/o all the modern
appurtenances to have a even a ghost of a chance w/o 'em if more than a
short distance away from shore what more w/ in a disabled boat...

--

On 6/13/2010 2:17 PM, dpb wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:
On 6/12/2010 7:57 PM, dpb wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
...

It remains to be seen whether she ASKED to be rescued.

???

Demasted in high seas halfway between Africa and Australia and you think
there was a choice to be made????

Yep, rig a jury mast and creep to the nearest land. ...


Oh, yeah, right!

Call me cynical, but I don't think this girl would have a clue how to
even begin to do the first or have any idea how to sail w/o the
electronics to tell here where land might even be...

Maybe, maybe not. The thing is, you don't know her.

On 6/13/2010 2:27 PM, dpb wrote:
dpb wrote:
...

Call me cynical, but I don't think this girl would have a clue how to
even begin to do the first or have any idea how to sail w/o the
electronics to tell here where land might even be...

And, just to make it clear, no, this old wheat farmer wouldn't have a
clue, either, and ain't clamin' would've made it as far as she did, even
(but then again, woulda' known better as well).

I just don't think she's ever sailed enough w/o all the modern
appurtenances to have a even a ghost of a chance w/o 'em if more than a
short distance away from shore what more w/ in a disabled boat...

The only "modern appurtenance" she needed and didn't have was a stick of
wood.

J. Clarke wrote:
On 6/13/2010 2:17 PM, dpb wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:
On 6/12/2010 7:57 PM, dpb wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
...

It remains to be seen whether she ASKED to be rescued.

???

Demasted in high seas halfway between Africa and Australia and you
think
there was a choice to be made????

Yep, rig a jury mast and creep to the nearest land. ...


Oh, yeah, right!

Call me cynical, but I don't think this girl would have a clue how to
even begin to do the first or have any idea how to sail w/o the
electronics to tell here where land might even be...

Maybe, maybe not. The thing is, you don't know her.

That's true I don't know her -- what I do know is that she's only 16,
not a seasoned sailor w/ 20 years' experience behind her to draw on from
which to improvise. I also know she ignored advice to reschedule
departure to avoid being where she was this time of year which is
notoriously bad weather period for the area.

--

On 6/13/2010 8:56 PM, dpb wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:
On 6/13/2010 2:17 PM, dpb wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:
On 6/12/2010 7:57 PM, dpb wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
...

It remains to be seen whether she ASKED to be rescued.

???

Demasted in high seas halfway between Africa and Australia and you
think
there was a choice to be made????

Yep, rig a jury mast and creep to the nearest land. ...


Oh, yeah, right!

Call me cynical, but I don't think this girl would have a clue how to
even begin to do the first or have any idea how to sail w/o the
electronics to tell here where land might even be...

Maybe, maybe not. The thing is, you don't know her.

That's true I don't know her -- what I do know is that she's only 16,
not a seasoned sailor w/ 20 years' experience behind her to draw on from
which to improvise.

Doesn't take 20 years experience, it takes a modicum of mechanical
aptitude. And supposedly she has done a good deal of singlehanded ocean
sailing prior to this, so she's more "seasoned" than many.

I also know she ignored advice to reschedule
departure to avoid being where she was this time of year which is
notoriously bad weather period for the area.

Which reflects on her judgment but not on her ability to tie ropes and
cloth to a stick of wood (or aluminum or carbon fiber or unobtainium or
whatever else the pieces she has dragging in the water alongside the
boat are made of).



--

On 2010-06-12, Leon wrote:

Lucky for her and her parents.

Yeah! What luck. What a total surprise. It's not like she didn't
have more people than Waldo looking out for her.

nb

"Upscale" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 12 Jun 2010 20:47:06 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:
Yeah, right, every time a kid decides to do something it's because the
kid was being exploited by somebody. Never occurs to you that the kid
may be doing something that was his or her own idea.

Another poor attempt at reasoning. How many kids would drink, have
sex, do drugs and drive the family car while underage if there was no
adult there to supervise them. The answer is practically all of them.

Adults most important job is to advise and raise their children. Any
type of young age activity that gets the media attention like this one
did is exploitation in part or in whole by an adult. Otherwise it
usually doesn't happen.

And that includes things such as the olympics. I've seen more than one
child's childhood ruined by spending her every free moment training for
gymnastics.

Same thing with other sports.


You seem particularly apt at displaying a lack of common sense. Guess
that's no surprise.

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
On 6/13/2010 1:10 AM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
On 6/12/2010 11:11 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
On 6/12/2010 9:45 PM, Lobby Dosser wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
On 6/12/2010 7:57 PM, dpb wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
...

It remains to be seen whether she ASKED to be rescued.

???

Demasted in high seas halfway between Africa and Australia and you
think
there was a choice to be made????

Yep, rig a jury mast and creep to the nearest land. Bligh had a lot
less to work with than she did and a far less capable hull under him
and yet he made it as far as she needed to go.




Bligh had been at sea for 17 years when he was set adrift. He was
also
an excellent navigator. And he made it farther - 3,600 miles.

Doesn't matter. The point is that there is a choice--being dismasted
isn't the same as the boat breaking in half.


In her case it may as well be. Except for the emergency beacons.

There you're assuming things again. While she does come across as
someone who has little mechanical aptitude, that impression might be
mistaken.



I was thinking more the navigational skills. Bligh got his in something
like seven years with Cook.

So what leads you to believe that her navigational skills were
insufficient to the task of hitting Australia?


$200K worth of equipment.

wrote in message
...
On Sat, 12 Jun 2010 18:45:09 -0700, "Lobby Dosser"
wrote:

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
On 6/12/2010 7:57 PM, dpb wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
...

It remains to be seen whether she ASKED to be rescued.

???

Demasted in high seas halfway between Africa and Australia and you
think
there was a choice to be made????

Yep, rig a jury mast and creep to the nearest land. Bligh had a lot
less
to work with than she did and a far less capable hull under him and yet
he
made it as far as she needed to go.




Bligh had been at sea for 17 years when he was set adrift. He was also an
excellent navigator. And he made it farther - 3,600 miles.

Not in those conditions, he didn't.


Correct.

Consider then, Shackleton.